PDA

View Full Version : I've formed a......



RMulhern
01-31-2011, 09:10 PM
conclusion...which you may not agree with but the conclusion I've formed seems to be valid....for me anyway! Two days ago....I took my Shiloh 45 2 7/8 to my range and put up an NRA HP 200 yard target. This target has a 7" 10 ring. I was using 112 grs. Swiss 1F with WLR primer and two .060" card wads atop the powder....bullet seated .160" into the case. Bullet was the .446" PP Money Bullet which I have been trying to get to shoot for me! Well...off the bench I managed to put ONE ROUND into the 10 ring!! All others stayed within the 13" black but no grouping whatsoever!! Looked like a friggin shotgun load!! All bullets were within 2/10 gr. weight-wise with no visible exterior defects; wrapped with .0015" paper. Now...I would expect this if I were blind or couldn't call my shots but that 'ain't' the case...not yet anyway!! Needless to say...my **** was somewhat chapped! This is the rifle that I just got back from Kirk Bryan. Kirk put a 7* leade into the chamber for me. I didn't suspect the rifle; sights were tight and all was well with it. But that bullet.........??

Today I went back to the range after I pulled the bullets on the remaining 16 rounds I had loaded with the .446" Money Bullet and I reseated the cases with bullets from a KAL mould with cupped base weighing in at 537 grs...and a meplat of .150". These bullets were patched with a paper of .0020" giving a per side thickness of .0040". Had to ride my wheeler down to the range to paint the target first as we've had much rain and the range was very wet. I then rode back to the Bears Den...got my truck and went back down to the bench I had set up at 600 yards. I didn't have an exact zero for this bullet so I fired two sighters which were close working off an old zero I had for another bullet. The final 14 rounds went into the 10 ring plate; group built up slightly left of center but held excellent elevation throughout the string. Was wiping after each shot; 2 NAPA damp patches, one dry..same as always. Needless to say...I had a BIG SMILE[smilie=w::mrgreen: on my face!

Am I basing my 'conclusion' on the theory that if one is going to use PP bullets that a very careful selection of paper thickness must be made......upon the two days previous incident with the .446" Money Bullet?? No! Not hardly! I have tried that bullet on much more than one occasion but to date....I have never gotten it to give me accuracy such as I got this afternoon with the KAL bullet. Powderburner has advised me that he has had the same experience with the .446" bullet that I have been having and I'm not speaking for him of course but me thinks that we both are of the opinion that if one is going to use PP....it might be best to not use patch paper that is under .0020" thickness! In all of my previous testing and shooting of PP bullets....I have never used paper with less than .0020" thickness. On some bullets for my 50 2 1/2 I've used paper with a thickness of as much as .0030" and ALWAYS had good results. But with the .446" bullet....to get the dude to fit the bore....I've always had to resort to the thinner paper.....with damn sad results afterward! I will finally give up on it....and continue to run the as cast bullets through a swage die that takes them down to .444" which shoot really well! When patched wet and dried...these come out at .4505".:castmine::mrgreen:

Wish I could have posted a photo of that group guys but I dang certain wasn't going to drive my truck through all the gumbo mud and cut my road up! It'll be dry one day.....after all this storm comes through we're expecting to hit tomorrow afternoon! Hope all my Wyoming/Montana friends don't have to suffer too much through the blizzard about to hit! HANG TIGHT GUYS!! ADIOS!!

Bullshop
01-31-2011, 09:21 PM
Very interesting that there.
Brings a question to mind. What is the rag content of the paper you are using?
I have been using 100% cotton and it is tough paper.

Kenny Wasserburger
01-31-2011, 10:17 PM
Rick,

I don't know about that. Least my experiences have been with .0015 Paper with that .446 bullet and have had excellent luck and accuracy.:brokenima

but I do seat mine in the case more too.[smilie=w:





That group was shot with a .446 Money the 525 gr and 8# Seth Cole Paper.


KW
The Lunger

RMulhern
01-31-2011, 10:42 PM
Yep...recall that quite well I do! But apparently in this rifle and the one of powderburner...it just won't give decent accuracy! When run thru a swage die...it shoots pretty good! Seems I recall you were shooting Goex Express1F and compressing .385".

Lead pot
01-31-2011, 11:37 PM
Rick.

I'm glad your finding this out yourself. I never got the consistent results using a paper less tan groove depth.
I use a .446 diameter bullet patched with .0016 100% cotton and it will shoot very tight groups but they are only now and then.
I use the same .446 bullet I had specially made to fit my 5 degree lead and it gets patched with 7.5 lb paper that runs about .0022 thick and it shoots a lot better seated a little deeper and patched over bore diameter.

Kurt

RMulhern
01-31-2011, 11:57 PM
I understand seating deeper shooting groove diameter but KW shoots bore diameter and seats deep also but I cannot figure out why that would make a difference accuracy-wise shooting this bullet!!

???????

Lead pot
02-01-2011, 12:10 AM
Well Rick to be honest, I don't know why it improves my accuracy.
But I will make an assumption. I think it might have something to do with sealing the bore quicker and not letting the gasses pass by at different rates shot by shot by relying on the wads to hold most of the gas blow by till the bullet seals the bore???
But see it in reduced vertical.
When I say deep seated, the bullet is only about 1/8" deeper than a bullet I patch to .001 over bore.

felix
02-01-2011, 12:30 AM
But I will make an assumption. I think it might have something to do with sealing the bore quicker and not letting the gasses pass by at different rates shot by shot by relying on the wads to hold most of the gas blow by till the bullet seals the bore??? ... Lead Pot

Well, let's change your "I THINK" thoughts to "I KNOW" thoughts in each instance above and you will have a great paragraph. The name of the game is keeping the gas acceleration curve consistent from round to round. F=M*A is the rule that must be adhered to. ... felix

RMulhern
02-01-2011, 02:04 AM
Very interesting that there.
Brings a question to mind. What is the rag content of the paper you are using?
I have been using 100% cotton and it is tough paper.

Bullshop

Same as yours!:bigsmyl2:

Gunlaker
02-01-2011, 02:23 AM
I haven't been doing the PP thing nearly as long as you guys, but I've got the Baco money bullet mould in .444" and .446" diameters. I use paper from Baco for the smaller bullet, and Seth Cole 8lb paper for the .446" bullet as it is thinner.

In both my .45-110 (grease groove chamber) and .45-70 (Dan T. Bore diameter pp chamber), the .444" bullet with the thicker paper works noticeably better.

Now I don't know why that is, and maybe I'll find something different later as I continue to experiment and learn more, but that's definitely what I'm finding right now.

Interestingly I also am still finding that a lube cookie makes for better groups. I'm also not sure why that is :-|

Chris.

Lead pot
02-01-2011, 10:57 AM
Well, let's change your "I THINK" thoughts to "I KNOW" thoughts in each instance above and you will have a great paragraph. The name of the game is keeping the gas acceleration curve consistent from round to round. F=M*A is the rule that must be adhered to. ... felix

felix.

I'm almost affright to ask what the F=M*A equation stands for :lol:

Felix I wont make a strong statement that I cant back up with out facts. I can only confirm what I see on paper and the chronograph.
But that dont tell me why.

Kurt

nanuk
02-07-2011, 02:05 AM
force = mass X acceleration?