40-70ss?

[shooter93]

Anyone shooting a round based on blowing a 30-40 Krag case straight out to 40 caliber, much like a 40-70SS. If so I need to buy 6 empty cases for a small experiment before I make up some rounds and have a reamer ground. thanks.

[longranger]

Buffalo Arms sells per piece brass.I shoot a 40-70 SS but only have RMC brass that I am not willing to part with.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,271.html

[Red River Rick]

Shooter93:

I'm assuming this is what your looking for? I have lots of cases here that I'd be willing to share with you..............but, I can't ship them to you.

Just a heads up, the maximum OAL I can get out of the 30-40 brass is 2.225". I don't know if this will suffice for your needs.

RRR

[41wyom]

If you are getting a reamer made, is there a chance you can use 405 Winch. brass? That starts out at about 2.575-2.580" long. Gives you a bunch extra to trim to just fit your chamber. The nominal length of the 40-70 SS case is 2.500". I trimmed mine to 2.530" and only lost about 005" (C. Sharps/Badger/1:16) upon fire-forming. A subsequent firing a second time saw no length reduction. Be careful on rim dia. and thickness as the 30-40 and 405 are different.

Tom

[shooter93]

Thanks...I have an old Buffalo Arms catalog and didn't realize they would sell by the piece. Length won't matter as the reamer will be made from my dummy rounds. This isn't for a BP gun project but rather a repeater smokless gun.

[475BH]

Anyone shooting a round based on blowing a 30-40 Krag case straight out to 40 caliber, much like a 40-70SS. If so I need to buy 6 empty cases for a small experiment before I make up some rounds and have a reamer ground. thanks.

I think that would be the .40-60 Manard.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=46193

[ss40_70]

i form cases for my 40-70ss from 45-70 cases .. not sure about blowing them out from a 30-40 , is the rim the same dia ? is the 30-40 a rimmed case?

[shooter93]

It would be a 40 krag not a true 40-70 SS. I did a 35 Krag on a Krag action and I'm thinking of doing a 40. I want to test feeding because often when using straight cases through a Krag it gives you problems.

[NickSS]

Actually it would be more like the 40-60 Mainard which some people use for silhouette shooting.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I have two rifles that are based on the Krag case for their Brass, My 38-50 Rem Hepburn, and my soon to be finished 40-70 Sharps,

Krag brass is Rimed and BACO sells the stuff, it works quite well, a 45-70 case does not have the same size as a 40-70 SS, not sure what that guy is thinking as the 45 case is much bigger, Maybe he is thinking 40-65 Winchester which does take 45-70 Brass

Krag brass works fine unless your chamber is cut for the 405 rim size.

Best to not post when you don't know, Posting removes all doubt, that you do not know what your talking about.

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Kenny did you see where Jamison has the 40-70 brass in production?

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don,

I have seen that and, after finding out that Jamison is the Old Bell Brass.

I sorta decided, been down that road many years ago, with my 110, dont care to take that trail again.

Krag cases are very consistant when bought in large lots, and I like them.

May take another look at the Bell-Jamison some time soon.

After I started using Norma stuff in the old 2-7/8ths, as I always say you get what you pay for.

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

All the reports coming back on the Jamison brass I've seen are very good.
The Jamison outfit has been super responsive to set up tooling to make brass for the bpcr crowd.

Kenny did a little quick check, the only thing Bell about Jamison is the machinery Jamison bought after Bell went under. They also bought the PMC machinery...
A 20 pack of their brass might open some new doors for ya.....

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don,

I had known that, the quality of the bell brass was not just in the brass used, but was in sizes and odd rim thickness, neck thickness, and wide varriance in weights, POOR TOOLING. Hence my reluctance.

One thing about BACO's drawn stuff is very consistant neck sizes and weights, 550 38-50 cases less then 2 grains weight difference. That inpressed the hell out of me. The fact after some short and dirty load work up I shot some very good scores first time in sevaral years at Raton Silhouette Nationals. Of course I anneal after every firing too, some folks don't think thats needed either. Yet they do not even hold a candle to the guy that taught me that many years ago he has many records and Wins at Long Range at Raton. And they don't have the medal count or records I do either.


Folks that think 5-8 grains in case weight difference makes no difference at the target as long as the volume is the same. I have proved it to my self at 200 yards at Raton, those cases were all less then a grain apart in weight and pretty close to the same volume. At 800 yards I have won many many medals and Matches at that yard line, with case weights running no more then +- 1.5 grs weight 3 grs total spread. Jimbo weighs even tighter.

Some studies in interior balistics by Cratton Adduette many years ago, presented to me at a Highpower Clinic I attended at Camp Perry showed some interesting things about case weights effects on MV and Pressures and the end result at the Chronograph. The Guy knew his stuff and was willing to share it. Abet this was at high power velocitys and pressures, it does however carry over even in lower pressure BP loads, and much so at long range.

As old Danny T says Paper don't lie.

KW
The Lunger

PS an example of Case weight effect on Hand load data, Load book listed for the 308, 45 gr WW 745 gave a velocity of 2645 fps (the Standard for the M-14 with the 168 MK) yet I was getting 2730 to 2760 avg and blowing primers and near case head seperations. Load book was using WLR Primers (I was too) Winchester cases. I was using Lake City Match brass that was 18 grs of weight heavier then the winchester stuff. Addutte's Clinic said to take the weight difference and then 10% of that so 1.8 Grs of Powder and reduce the charage that much to get similar pressure-velocity. It worked no more blown primers or case head seperations.

[Don McDowell]

Well considering that Jamison was making his own brass before he bought the Bell and PMC tooling and reworked both, and that happened 10 years ago.....
This 44-77 brass I have is very consistant, and as I said anybody I've talked to with actual hands on experience verses the rumor mill ****, is pretty happy with the stuff.
Pretty sure that Grafs would have them make their oddball cartridge stuff if it was inferior....

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Jamison,

says brass in Production, but kind not find any specs on their web sight to the brass such as Rim Diam and such.

Their 45-110 brass is short from what I am hearing, nice quality too but too short, thus Useless unless you like lead mining the throat and chamber of your rifle. and forget using it for Paper Patching, If they got that wrong wonder how the 40-70 stuff will work out?

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Here's from someone that actually has some of the stuff. Not hear say

"Yes, Jamison bought some Bell equipment as well as PCM equipment. His brass is really top notch stuff and he gave us some samples of 110 that we compared to Norma. His brass is actually ticker than Norma and will last forever if it is taken care of."

The number of Shiloh 40-70 shooters that requested them to build the brass it's probably built to the Shiloh chamber specs. Kirk told me hisself he had supplied Jamison with chamber drawings.
Of course I realize it's a huge project to get on the phone and call or even email Jamison and ask about the deminsions.....

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don,

Someone posted on the Shiloh forum that the 110 stuff was short, that he had bought not hearsay was one of the Shiloh Posters.

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Well there's always someone crabbin about short brass, get the 3.25 trim it down, problem solved.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Don,

Good lord Jamison don't make 3.25 brass, NORMA stuff is perfect So thats what I use. After you FL Size it I trim to 2.880 fire form done, and its cheaper then the Jamison stuff.

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Don,

Good lord Jamison don't make 3.25 brass, KW
The Lunger

look and learn[smilie=s:
http://www.jamisoninternational.com/product-p/ji45120s.htm

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Why bother,

The Norma stuff works just fine and is cheaper.

KW
The Lunger

[Don McDowell]

Hmmm offshore producer or USA manufacturer.... where have we heard that before? lol

[ole pizen slinger]

Kenny,
I have a Borchardt project going. Purchased a reamer to Shiloh specifications and bought 50 pieces of the 30-40 Craig that had been reformed by Buffalo Arms to 40-70SS. I sent my gunsmith 5 pieces of the BACO brass to be used in headspacing the rifle. He informed me that the 30-40 Craig brass had 0.006 variation in rim thickness in those 5 pieces. Have you noticed this with your brass?
OPS

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Yeah Don,

you bought a chinese made Scope? Thats funny as hell in my book, Best look to your own house pard before calling someone else out, Good lord I dont know what the hell you got up your Tail but you need to give it a rest. The jabs are getting a bit tiresome. I Am sure I wont have the pleasure of you attending my match this year.

KW
The Lunger

[Kenny Wasserburger]

OPS,

I have had as much as .004 difference in Rim Thickness and have sorted out the worst ones.

Kinda am hoping the Jamison stuff is better but not holding my breath.

KW
The Lunger

[Lead pot]

I only have .44-77 brass from Jamison and the rim thickness is the first thing I checked when I got it. The rim thickness is .074" and I only went through about 25 cases and looked no farther. I only found 1 case that was .075".
I haven't turned down a case neck so I cant say if they have any run out or not. I will do this after I fire them at least once.
So far I think the brass is top notch.

[Don McDowell]

Yeah Don,

you bought a chinese made Scope? Thats funny as hell in my book, Best look to your own house pard before calling someone else out, Good lord I dont know what the hell you got up your Tail but you need to give it a rest. The jabs are getting a bit tiresome. I Am sure I wont have the pleasure of you attending my match this year.

KW
The Lunger

Well lets see here KW. You first said Jamison was Bell, not true. Then you said they didn't make 3.25 in brass, not true.
Norma Brass , Swiss powder,,, glass houses and rocks come to mind...
Yeh I bought the Chinese built scope for a US Company, from an US company, also bought the quality mounts from a well known US bpcr maker.. With all the Cabela's gift cards etc I had the scope was the only thing that came to mind I particularly wanted, got the entire deal all in and all done for about the price of a set of MVA mounts,:roll:Now I've explained that deal to you twice more than needed..
Ohhhh my lets see been to 2 of those matches in 5 years, get any hints there?....

[shooter93]

Let me see....I post a simple question about getting a few empty cases....next thing you know it's 2 pages of p...ing contest that has nothing to do with the original question. Lighten up guys. And Kenny....thanks for the PM...I'll get hold of Buffalo arms and ask them for the cases you recommended. I have tons of Krag brass so I want to use those and not a speciality case.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Shooter93,

Your welcome.

KW
The Lunger

[semtav]

Shore wish SS 40 70 would come back so we could quiz him more on his brass transformation. Can't imagine a guy going by the handle SS40 70 not knowing what kind of gun he was shooting or what brass he was using to make it.

[Don McDowell]

It would be a 40 krag not a true 40-70 SS. I did a 35 Krag on a Krag action and I'm thinking of doing a 40. I want to test feeding because often when using straight cases through a Krag it gives you problems.

The question does arise, tho , if you already have a 35 krag and " tons" of Krag brass wouldn't it be much easier to expand the neck on one of those 35 cases and use your own instead of asking strangers for their brass?

Also you might want to pm Bullshop and ask him about this 40 project I believe (altho I could be mistaken) that he did something similar on a krag action not long ago...

[Red River Rick]

Shore wish SS 40 70 would come back so we could quiz him more on his brass transformation. Can't imagine a guy going by the handle SS40 70 not knowing what kind of gun he was shooting or what brass he was using to make it.

:bigsmyl2:

RRR

[405]

Anyone shooting a round based on blowing a 30-40 Krag case straight out to 40 caliber, much like a 40-70SS. If so I need to buy 6 empty cases for a small experiment before I make up some rounds and have a reamer ground. thanks.

Send some?... no. Not that they are gold plated but they have been modified. Yes, I use the 30-40 K brass re-drawn/sold by BACO in my 40-70SS. My gun is a custom job based on a Win 1885 action. I'm sure the chamber was cut to old specs. The only problem I had with the 30-40 parent cases from BACO was that the rim thickness was too great... that lead me to believe my chamber was cut to old specs/thinner rim?. I turned down the rim thickness by turning down the base so as to get near zero headspace. The primer pockets stayed deep enough for large rifle primers and had the side benefit of being a better depth fit for the large pistol primer. I can use either primer but have noticed no difference in load performance.
No, I have not seen irregularities within the BACO batch of 30-40s reformed to 40-70SS. If you had your smith cut the chamber to accomodate the rim thickness of the 30-40 reformed then probably no issues.

[Lead pot]

BACO brass made for the Shiloh rim recess and some for the C-Sharps there is a difference in the rim thickness

[shooter93]

Don...I didn't ask anyone for their brass...I offered to BUY it. And yes I have a pile of 30-40 brass but I currently have no way to fully expand it to 40 caliber. Kenny pm'd me a good way to get what I need so as I posted I'll take that route.

[Don McDowell]

I've got 4 Rem-UMC 30 us brass with .060 thick rims left over from the 8mm swede debaucle. If you want them I can run them thru the sizers and M dies I have and get them opened up to .410.
Let me know, they'll be free gratis, only need your snail mail addy, but with this blizzard going on here will likely be Wed or Thursday at the earliest before I could get them out to you.

[shooter93]

Don...if you can expand them to 40 caliber I'll send you some of my brass to expand for me.

[Don McDowell]

I can run them thru .348,375 and finally .410 M dies.

[Don McDowell]

Could also fireform them in my 405.

[shooter93]

PM me an address Don and I'll send some out. Doesn't matter which way I just need straight cases. I can seat some bullets I have and if feeding is ok then I'll get form and loading dies and have a reamer cut from my dummy rounds. that's how I did the 35 and a few others. thanks.

[Don McDowell]

Be glad to do it for you. Have often thought about finding a builder Krag and turning it to 405, but not real convinced it'ld work like I'ld want it to..
Pm inbound.

[shooter93]

I'll send them out Don. We've done 4 35's so far and a guy gave me another Krag the other day so I'll try a 40. We did work on a 444 for a guy once but it wouldn't feed the last round...to nose heavy. His magazine had been worked on before so that may have been the real problem but I'll know once I make these dummies up. Needless to say that with either a 444 or 405 you'd have to watch pressures a bit but that's true of any round in a Krag. I'll be posting pics of the 35 in Special projects as soon as it comes back checkered. Thanks guys.

[Don McDowell]

I read somewhere a few years back about somebody had 35 winchester a krag and then tried to 405 it and ran into problems I think getting the magazine to feed.
According to hogdons web the 405 operates at around 45 k psi, but if a person tames it down to 40-70 ballistics the pressure should be well within what a good Krag bolt will handle yet still be useful for blowing holes thru game critters.

[gungadoug]

My 2 cents worth-- 40-70 SS will not shoot well at range, usually. Now, before the howls of protest start, if it worked well at say 500m, it would be very popular with the silhouette crowd. It's not. Up close, say out to 300 it works, but it seems there is something about that long powder coulmn that fouls/ is just very tough to get to work at range. Of course there are exceptions! A shorter powder column seems to be fine- 40-60 Maynard, for example.
MHO, Doug

[longranger]

My 2 cents worth-- 40-70 SS will not shoot well at range, usually. Now, before the howls of protest start, if it worked well at say 500m, it would be very popular with the silhouette crowd. It's not. Up close, say out to 300 it works, but it seems there is something about that long powder coulmn that fouls/ is just very tough to get to work at range. Of course there are exceptions! A shorter powder column seems to be fine- 40-60 Maynard, for example.
MHO, Doug

Pure conjecture sir, surely you jest

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I remember hearing the same thing about the 45-110 about 17 years ago.


KW
The Lunger

I know one Master Class Silhouette Shooter that's shooting quite well with a 40-70 in Montana. I have seen his scores often in the 28-30/40 Range.

[Don McDowell]

Recieved the brass today. Have them ready to go back to you hopefully in tommorrows mail?
The 35's didn't form out as well as one might hope. The 30-40 brass was simple to enlarge, dumped in a scoop full of trailboss (about 9 grs) filled the case to almost the mouth with corn meal, then plugged the mouth with some SPG lube, fired in the 405 and they came out pretty.
There is one case of the unaltered 30-40's that in place of the lube I used a 30 caliber gas check, it looks a little funny where the gascheck evidently didn't fly to straight, you'll notice it right away, but it'll still work fine. So when you get this rifle done, looks to me like a simple fireforming of the brass and you'll be ready to show us some iddy biddy groups.

[plain old dave]

I am watching this project as well; Project Thumper (my nascent .35 Krag) may well wind up being a .400 Krag instead of a .35 Krag...

[shooter93]

Thanks Don....between those and Kenny's suggestions I'll know for sure if it will feed ok. The krag seems to be sensitive to nose heavy straight cases so we'll see. If it works God knows when I'll get the rifle done....I have 7 or 8 rifles going on now....lol....but I'm not an addict. This one could get moved to the front of the list though...lol. Thanks for the help guys.