Return of My Handgun

[alamogunr]

This question may have been answered in one of the many threads on shipping handguns but several searches haven't turned up anything.

The question is: If I have a FFL ship my handgun to a smith for some work, can the handgun be returned to the FFL and transferred to me without the $10 background check? I would like to use the FFL so it can be shipped USPS(much cheaper).

John
W.TN

[shooterg]

$10 ? I think it's only $2 in VA. Guess the FFL is a friend, otherwise his fee would've made up the difference. After all, he will have to enter it on his books coming and going.

It's a shame that UPS charges so much to ship handguns - understand that's mostly because so many were stolen by employees !

[HeavyMetal]

Actually I believe you are allowed to ship your gun to your smith for repair and have it returned to you without having an FFL involved.

The key of course is how you ship it!

US mail is out completely so your choice is Fed Ex or UPS.

I just recently shipped a para frame ( if it has a serial number it's a gun) to Bar Sto for barrel replacement under warranty NOV. 2010 shipped to them and shipped back directly to my home.

2 years ago sent a TC Contender to the factory for the easy open conversion. Same deal no fuss no muss!

So, unless you have some wierd local restriction, you are not buying a gun you are having your own gun repaired no wait, no forms.

Now if you purchase a gun from any dealer it will hav to ship to an FFL holder pending date of manufacture of course.

Having your FFL ship it makes it no more secure from theft than you shipping it, as a matter of fact it's more likely to be stolen as the dealer will have to blantantly mark it as a firearm!

You may as well glue a flag on it that says take me!

For both my shipments I used UPS, taped it up very securely, and packaged so it would not move internally.

When asked what it was, because if you shipping a bomb your going to tell them the truth so it get's to the right person correct??, I answered Machined steel parts.

All shipments went off with out a hitch and were returned the same way without the obvious "tattletale" markings on the box.

[montana_charlie]

Actually I believe you are allowed to ship your gun to your smith for repair and have it returned to you without having an FFL involved.


For both my shipments I used UPS, taped it up very securely, and packaged so it would not move internally.

When asked what it was, because if you shipping a bomb your going to tell them the truth so it get's to the right person correct??, I answered Machined steel parts.

All shipments went off with out a hitch and were returned the same way without the obvious "tattletale" markings on the box.
I believe your information is correct when saying you don't need a FFL at both ends when you are shipping a gun to a gunsmith who will return it to you.

However, your experience is not evidence that your information is correct because you hid the fact that there was a firearm in the box when you shipped it.

Now, the guy you are trying to help doesn't know whether to trust the law...or lie.

CM

[alamogunr]

Thanks for the replies. I have already talked to the smith on the receiving end. He will not be a party to my shipping it UPS or FedEx and not identifying it as a firearm. The only reason I'm considering using a dealer is to save $$ over the above companies. UPS and FedEx are very expensive. On the order of more than $60 each way.

I don't find anything in the postal regulations that require identifying the package as a "firearm". There is a regulation that requires a statement by the shipper that the addressee is qualified to receive the package. In other words, a FFL.

Several years ago I returned a handgun to the manufacturer and they returned it to me, unidentified and with the manufacturers name camouflaged so that it was not obvious that the package might contain a firearm. This was by UPS and since it was their responsibility, I didn't have to pay shipping.

John
W.TN

[82nd airborne]

You are correct in saying you do not need an FFL as long as it is your gun, sent to him, he can send it right back to you.

[Geraldo]

Here's the deal, straight from ATF:

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?
A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

Obviously you personally cannot ship a handgun by USPS. If you ship by UPS/Fedex, you have to tell them there is a firearm in the box. They should want to verify that it is unloaded, but the counter help may just ask you that. Note the red highlight, you cannot be required to put something on the outside of the box saying that there is a firearm inside. The cost of UPS/Fedex for handguns is their rule, not ATF's.

If your smith is saying that he doesn't want you not telling UPS/Fedex that there is no handgun in the box, I agree completely. If he won't accept from an individual, I would use someone who will. My understanding (although I did not check this on ATF) on the background check at your FFL is that if they receive it, they log it in. So if you bought the pistol in a private sale, there will be paper on it after the work is done.

[fecmech]

I live in New York State and have shipped handguns to Smith&Wesson and Ruger for repair through Fedex. Both S&W and Ruger returned my handguns to my home by UPS. I also shipped a Firestar 9MM to a gunsmith in Virginia for repair and had it returned to my home by UPS. I am not an FFL and Fedex was notified that packages contained handguns. All they asked was if they were unloaded and and checked the packing.

[ronbo]

I sent a TC contender frame to Thompson center for a easy open conversion. TC told me to send it as parts UPS ground and I got it back the same way no FFL.

[alamogunr]

I live in New York State and have shipped handguns to Smith&Wesson and Ruger for repair through Fedex. Both S&W and Ruger returned my handguns to my home by UPS. I also shipped a Firestar 9MM to a gunsmith in Virginia for repair and had it returned to my home by UPS. I am not an FFL and Fedex was notified that packages contained handguns. All they asked was if they were unloaded and and checked the packing.

Did you pay the shipping charges and if so, how much?
John
W.TN

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I'd go through the FFL, since he is allowed to ship a handgun via USPS, much cheaper than you paying FedEx or UPS the Overnight charge which is required since you do not have a ffl . . . and if he offered, let him do it, even if you have to pay the shipping fee. From here: http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/601.htm#wp1065404

When I bought a gun through Sportsman's warehouse, they told me if it need to go back to the manufacturer, that they would send it back for me in the first year.

You will not need to have another background check . . .

[HeavyMetal]

I "hid" what was in the package as a security measure because, having worked with ( and still do) UPS I have been told, by UPS employees, that the fastest way to have a firearm "disappear" is to actually mark it as such!

As for what I told the UPS shipping Point? It wasn't a lie the parts are machined and they did not ask me for what kind of a machine!

An Ommission on my part, yes! Strictly for security!

Note that the manufacturers return guns in plain brown wrappers for just this reason : both Parcel companies have a huge problem with in house theft!

Please note that the smith you send your gun to must have an FFL to recieve the gun.

Geraldo was kind enough to post the "rules": you cannot mail a hand gun PERIOD! Federal law prohibits this! FFL holder or not you can not mail a hand gun!

As for the OP's smith not wanting to accept delivery of an unmarked firearm?

That is his right as a businessman but I would expect him to pay for insurance both ways and discount the project the cost of "special" shipping as he requires.

If not I'd be looking for another smith!

[alamogunr]

Thanks, I will see the FFL on Monday and make arrangements. I have printed the form that needs to be presented when the gun is mailed. I am assuming he already knows about that and it won't be a problem. I will be paying the postage charges, both ways, I'm sure. That will still be considerably cheaper than UPS or FedEx.

John
W.TN

[HeavyMetal]

I "hid" what was in the package as a security measure because, having worked with ( and still do) UPS I have been told, by UPS employees, that the fastest way to have a firearm "disappear" is to actually mark it as such!

As for what I told the UPS shipping Point? It wasn't a lie the parts are machined and they did not ask me for what kind of a machine!

An Ommission on my part, yes! Strictly for security!

Note that the manufacturers return guns in plain brown wrappers for just this reason : both Parcel companies have a huge problem with in house theft!

Please note that the smith you send your gun to must have an FFL to recieve the gun.

Geraldo was kind enough to post the "rules": you cannot mail a hand gun PERIOD! Federal law prohibits this! FFL holder or not you can not mail a hand gun!

As for the OP's smith not wanting to accept delivery of an unmarked firearm?

That is his right as a businessman but I would expect him to pay for insurance both ways and discount the project the cost of "special" shipping as he requires.

If not I'd be looking for another smith!

[alamogunr]

I "hid" what was in the package as a security measure because, having worked with ( and still do) UPS I have been told, by UPS employees, that the fastest way to have a firearm "disappear" is to actually mark it as such!

As for what I told the UPS shipping Point? It wasn't a lie the parts are machined and they did not ask me for what kind of a machine!

An Ommission on my part, yes! Strictly for security!

Note that the manufacturers return guns in plain brown wrappers for just this reason : both Parcel companies have a huge problem with in house theft!

Please note that the smith you send your gun to must have an FFL to recieve the gun.

Geraldo was kind enough to post the "rules": you cannot mail a hand gun PERIOD! Federal law prohibits this! FFL holder or not you can not mail a hand gun!

As for the OP's smith not wanting to accept delivery of an unmarked firearm?

That is his right as a businessman but I would expect him to pay for insurance both ways and discount the project the cost of "special" shipping as he requires.

If not I'd be looking for another smith!

I should have been more clear. The smith did not say that he would not receive an unmarked package. He said that if I used UPS or FedEx I would have to declare it as a firearm. That costs much more than standard charges. That is why I prefer the postal service.

HeavyMetal: Your statement that a FFL holder cannot mail a handgun is contradicted by the following from postal regulations.

12.1.5 Manufacturers and Dealers

Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms and licensed dealers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts.
12.1.6 Certificate of Manufacturers and Dealers

A licensed manufacturer or dealer need not file the affidavit under 12.1.4 (http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/601.htm#wp1099709), but must file with the postmaster a statement on Form 1508 signed by the mailer that he or she is a licensed manufacturer or dealer of firearms, that the parcels containing handguns (or major component parts thereof) are customary trade shipments or contain such articles for repairing or replacing parts, and that to the best of his or her knowledge or belief the addressees are licensed manufacturers or dealers of firearms.


The regulations, that several have been so kind as to refer me to, state that no shipper can require that the package be marked on the outside as a firearm. The postal regulations require that the shipping FFL also submit a Form 1508 stating that, to the best of their knowledge, the addressee is qualified to receive the firearm. In other words he is an FFL also. We are small communities that still have a post office. Both myself and the local FFL are well known at both post offices.

I appreciate the help and the education I have received today.

John
W.TN

[mike in co]

This question may have been answered in one of the many threads on shipping handguns but several searches haven't turned up anything.

The question is: If I have a FFL ship my handgun to a smith for some work, can the handgun be returned to the FFL and transferred to me without the $10 background check? I would like to use the FFL so it can be shipped USPS(much cheaper).

John
W.TN

why have the dealer ship the gun..you can ship to a 'smith and have it shipped back to you...unless your state has some funky rules.

mike in co

[462]

Yes, a dealer is permited to ship a handgun via the post office, which is why their shipping charges are so reasonable.

I have a C&R license, but can only ship a handgun via UPS or FedEx. Not long ago, I sold a C&R handgun to an out-of-state C&R licensee, and used UPS. They (and FedEx) required that the gun be overnighted and the charge was $60. For an additional $5, they will guarantee delivery before 10 a.m.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Geraldo was kind enough to post the "rules": you cannot mail a hand gun PERIOD! Federal law prohibits this! FFL holder or not you can not mail a hand gun!



Geraldo posted the "rules" for an un-licenced person (one who does not have a ffl) However a person who has a ffl can ship a handgun with the USPS. check out the link above.

The question is will his ffl charge him for a background check? he shouldn't! Sounds like it is a small town, and they know each other . . .

[alamogunr]

The question is will his ffl charge him for a background check? he shouldn't! Sounds like it is a small town, and they know each other . . .

I was wondering if there was a rule requiring the FFL to do a background check(for which there is a $10 charge in TN). The background check has already been done on this handgun by the same FFL. If the question comes up, I guess he could connect the previous receipt of the gun and the second receipt when it is returned from the gunsmith.

Just in case anyone is wondering why all the bother, this is a S&W model 65 w/3" bbl. I bought it used. I prefer revolvers for a carry weapon, and like this one in particular. I'm having an action job done on it to smooth everything up and make sure that it is top condition.

John
W.TN

[knifemaker]

I just shipped my 1911 to a custom smith out of state via UPS. They,UPS, advised me not to mark the box in any way to indicate it contains a firearm. Done to lessen chance of theft in route. I was able to insure it for full amount.

Upon completion of work the smith will ship back to my home address and UPS requires that I be there to sign for the package since it contains a firearm. No FFL paper work involved at my end. My smith also advised me to have the gun packaged in it's factory hard plastic case and the case placed in the cardboard shipping box to futher insure it is not damaged during shipping. The gunsmith also does not use a company logo that would indicate the package is coming from a gunsmith to help insure the contents do not indicate a gun is inside the package.

The shipping cost was not excessive high, but the insurance drove up the price to about 55 bucks due to being insured for $ 1,500.00. A high end 1911 that still needed the services of a good custom smith.

[fecmech]

Did you pay the shipping charges and if so, how much?
John
W.TN
They would not be applicable to you as I'm retired Fedex. The rules are the same regardless. You may ship a handgun to a dealer or smith (If he has an FFL) for repair or alteration and they can return them to you. The ownership of the firearm never changes hands.

[HeavyMetal]

Not being a dealer I had no idea such exceptions from the USPS were available to a dealer and, to be honest, the two FFL holders that I knew never dealt with the post office in any firearms transactions.

Both of these guys have been retired now several years. But seeing the requirements to ship a handgun by USPS I can see why the didn't do it if those "regs" were even in effect then because of the paper work involved.

However when all is said and done this isn't about what the OP's original queston was about and I may have had a hand in a little thread wandering here, sorry.

I am glad to see the OP's clraified his smith's position. The smith did the right thing advised his customer of shipping requirements.

When I returned both barrel and frame to Bar-Sto I called and asked for permission to ship, and to see what the warranty would honor.

I was told no problem warranty wise but was given no instruction or warning as to shipping to them.

Same thing on the return, I was called via cell number and advised it was going UPS the next day and should be home or have someone home to sign for it as I had requested!

Most likely I will never ship another gun so don't plan to worry about it until the issue comes up again.

If it does and nothing has changed, legally, I will still face the same fear of theft and will deal with it accordingly.

[alamogunr]

I guess it is all relative. I only paid about $300 for this gun. The work I want done will probably run $100+. I don't want to end up paying another $100+ just for shipping. The convenience of having the smith return the gun to me is not worth the extra shipping expense. I'll stick with having the FFL ship it USPS and insure it and have the smith(who also has FFL) return it the same way.

John
W.TN

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

One thing I think that got lost in the fog, or off on a rabbit trail is the "identify it as a gun" part . . . Law says that you have to "declare" it as a gun to the shipping agent, but . . . they recommend that you do not "advertise it" or put a label on it indicating what is in it.

The smith did not require that it be labeled as a gun, (with something on the outside) but did not want it declared as "metal parts" He has a license that he needs to keep bread on the table.

On a different note . . . when we moved out from VT to AZ we used a trucking service, a moving division of ABF, I loaded my section of the front of a "pup" 28 foot trailer, then put up a bulkhead, and they would use the rest of the trailers space on it's trip west . . .

They of course have rules of what you can put in there . . . no cars, propane tanks, and of course guns! Well I had two Rem 700 boxes from when I bought them new . . . my guns would not fit back in them now as I had scopes on both of them . . . but I wanted to keep the boxes . . . I put some long skinny things in them like one piece cleaning rods, and stuffed them in near the ceiling at the back of my load . . . one was missing when it got out here, I called and complained, at first they said "your not allowed to ship guns" I told them that it was a shipping box, and that I had my guns, and wanted my box and cleaning rods back! They ended up cutting me a check!

[Tazman1602]

If the gunsmith has a gunsmith FFL you should be able to ship the gun *directly* to him and he can ship it back to you with no issues unless things have changed in the last three weeks......

By *directly* I mean the address listed on his FFL....................

Art


This question may have been answered in one of the many threads on shipping handguns but several searches haven't turned up anything.

The question is: If I have a FFL ship my handgun to a smith for some work, can the handgun be returned to the FFL and transferred to me without the $10 background check? I would like to use the FFL so it can be shipped USPS(much cheaper).

John
W.TN

[alamogunr]

Again!! I can ship the gun directly to the smith by UPS or FedEx and pay $50-$60 each way. I am choosing to use USPS as a cheaper alternative. The only paperwork required is postal service Form 1508 which just states that the addressee to whom the gun is being shipped is qualified to receive it. I would guess that it will take less than 5 min. to fill out and sign.

John
W.TN

[Ajax]

Hey you can ship it yourself.........Just kidding man i think you are going the best way for your situation. I had to do it sorry for the bad joke.

Andy

[HeavyMetal]

I think Shawn's experience shows how quickly something marked "gun" can disappear. IN this case no one should have been in his secton of the trailer from the time he "sealed" it to the time he opened it at the new home.

The simple fact is someone went looking through his stuff for whatever they could get, saw the Remington box, grabbed it and ran!

In his case he has the satisfaction of knowing some jerk some where got a real let down when he opened his "new" gun! Add to the fact that the moving company paid for the stuff just sweetens that.

However bottom line is they to have had issues with theft which is why they don't want them in the trailer. Porpane tanks, and flammables, are simple common sense.

In the end we all need to realise that the moment we release a package to the carrier, no matter who the carrier is, we run the risk of losing the package.

It is what it is and no way to change it.

In the OP's case he's trying to save a few bucks and I don't blame him one bit. I think paying extra to declare what's in my package is a crock!

I think, and it isn't the first time I've been wrong, that only the USPS has a "legal" requirement to disclose a gun in the mail. The common carriers like UPS simple copy this so they can add a "Premium" to the handling of the package!

Until it's proven otherwise, and the fact that none of the smith's will refuse an unmarked package supports this thought, I will ship my next gun just like I did my last one unmarked and insured.

As a side note I was told by the UPS people that Big Brown dislikes small packages in plain brown paper. Seems it's to easy to lose in the conveyor systems.

So do an easy to see color when you package anything small for UPS shipping.

[Geraldo]

Hey you can ship it yourself.........Just kidding man i think you are going the best way for your situation. I had to do it sorry for the bad joke.

Andy

Now that was funny. ;)

[10 ga]

I think I'll make a zip gun and next time I'm out of state I'll go to UPS with a package marked "HANDGUN", Then ship it to myself with $500 of insurance. If I do this often enough, one or more will fail to arrive and I can collect "insurance". Would this be fraud? Hey, any handgun without a serial # should be worth $500. 10

[mike in co]

i'd be looking for another 'smith if he insisted i ship throught an ffl...as it is not required by lqw and adds cost to you.


maybe ask why...but anyone insisting i add cost with no benefit to me, is not gonna get my business.

mike in co

[alamogunr]

I guess I need to be more clear in my posts. The smith did not insist on shipping through a FFL. He didn't insist on anything except that I not conceal the fact that I was shipping a firearm. I decided that I would use the USPS to ship and the only way to do that is through a FFL. It will still be much cheaper than UPS or FedEx even paying a nominal amount to the FFL.

I admit that a firearm can be shipped as "machined parts" and avoid the very expensive charges through UPS and FedEx, but that may put the receiving FFL(the smith) at risk of possibly losing his license. I don't blame him for taking this position for a "dinky" job like mine.

No matter how it is shipped, it will NOT be identified on the outside of the package as a firearm. The address that it is sent to will NOT have any words that might signal that it contains a firearm.

Would someone with a better mastery of the English language proofread this post and let me know if I have confused the issue even more.

John
W.TN

[Geraldo]

Alamogunr, you can still send it...

You did leave a couple of vague areas in your original post, but as long as someone reads the last one, the situation should be clear.


This has nothing to do with alamogunr, but one point not brought up in intentionally mis-labeling a firearm as "parts" is what happens if it's lost or stolen. My guess is that UPS won't be paying out an insurance claim because it wasn't shipped according to their rules. So you'll most likely be out the money. Then you might want it to report it to the police and how sticky that gets depends on LE. Not that you'll be facing charges, but it's going to look suspicious when you're reporting a stolen gun on a "parts" receipt.

[HeavyMetal]

Geraldo I agree 100% that if the gun is stolen in transit it might be a hassle to collect any insurance.

However anyone that has had to deal with an insurance company in the last 5 years knows they do not want to pay period! They don't care how clear your claim is they will drag thier feet.

The whole concept behind not identifiying my package as a gun was the old "Loose Lips sinks ships"!

The fewer who know the less the risk and the less likely it will be stolen.

The carrier's already know this or they wouldn't ask you to not mark the package as a gun!

So in the end if being "obscure" about contents means it arrives safe at both ends versus maybe having to explain the whole "stealth" idea to an adjuster?

I'll keep being obscure! I have talked to a few adjusters and they seem pretty on top of whats up in the world so it may not be as difficult as you think to file the theft report with the LE.

[AzCaesar]

HeavyMetal, just a quick question regarding your last post.


I'll keep being obscure! I have talked to a few adjusters and they seem pretty on top of whats up in the world so it may not be as difficult as you think to file the theft report with the LE.

If you reported the theft, how would you explain the law that you had broken by not alerting the carrier to the fact that the package contained a firearm?

Just curious.