Water quinch vs Heat treat

[ian45662]

At what point does it pay off to start oven heat treating wheel weights. I am going to be casting up some gc booitls for my m4 type ar-15 and I am wondering what hardness the boolits should be at. Thanks for your help

[Tazman1602]

dude you have to either water drop the bullets out of the mold or heat treat them after they have been cast. Heat treating wheel weights you are going to melt to cast wouldn't do you any good......

Art

[RobS]

The advantages of heat treating:
-more consistent hardness amongst boolits
-potential to treat them to a harder BHN vs water quenching from the mold
-the ability to re-heat treat or anneal should you want to change the hardness of the same boolit
-less likelyhood of the boolits being dinged vs quenching them from the mold
-the ability to size the boolits first and then heat treat

The advantage to water quenching from the mold:
-Less time consuming

[mpmarty]

Or do neither and just shoot ACWW. I have never bothered to heat treat or water drop as I've never experienced any leading or other problems supposedly related to "soft" boolits. I do add about ten percent monotype metal to each batch.

[snuffy]

I agree with RobS, it's much more consistent to heat treat. Water dropping from the mold is less consistent because you might have some boolits hang up in the mold, needing a couple taps to get it/them to drop. The boolit is cooling while you bang on the mold. Then there's the water slowly heating up by subsequent dropping of additional boolits. No consistency, ya see?

Heat treating makes all the boolits the same temp, and the water is the same temp. Results are a consistent hardness,(as long as the alloy was the same). Some even have ice floating on the surface.

[ian45662]

I thought that oven treating them one would be able to get a higher BHN. I just wonder what BHN I should be shooting for to my boolits to shoot out of my ar and work the action. I am guessing that will be between 2,000 and 2,200 FPS but that is just a guess.

[chris in va]

I know this is apples to pomegranates, but I recently started casting for my AK and the water dropped boolits -w- gas check work great. My charge 'felt' hotter to me compared to Wolf and the brass got thrown about 15' away, so I'm guessing it's well over 2000fps.

Dunno if they have GC 223 boolits though, the other guys can comment.

[HARRYMPOPE]

Water quenching for me is an advantage as i can cast a bullet the night before i shoot and its about as hard as it will ever get.I dont worry about the few BHN points i gain.

HMP

[runfiverun]

your m-4 most likely has a 1-9 twist.
go hard straight off. [i use 4/6 alloy]
cast and aircool. [ i water drop but only after i have a tempo going and can consistently keep a rythmn]
check them out like they have owed you money for 6 months.
then weight sort them.
then oven heat treat. [ i do the ones i lost tempo on and separate]
i do this with my 1-12 twist bolt gun at 2750 fps.
i lube twice , and weight sort again after.
search for my 223 range report and you'll see the groups and load.

yeah 223 is a hassle but if you want results.....

[ian45662]

WOW 2750 FPS I didnt think they could be pushed that fast with out leading but I learn something new all the time. Mine is a 1:9 twist so should I go for a slower speed? Wheel weights are all I have at the moment so I am going to try to acheave maximum hardness by heat treating. I will wait 2 weeks or so before actually shooting them after they are heat treated.

[RobS]

jan45662: You can but you don't have to wait 2 weeks for the boolits to age harden as you can speed this up with the oven. Once you are done heat treating them in the oven wait 3 or 4 hours and then put them back in at 200 degrees for an hour (make sure it's 200 degree with a good thermometer and not 200 degrees on your oven setting). Shut the oven off and leave them in there to cool. This method will have them to their full hardness in 48 hours. If you want them in 24 hours then wait 7-8 hours after the first exposure to the 200 degree oven heat and do it once more.

[ian45662]

I don't mind the wait. I an going to seat the gas check the size and lube as soon as they have cooled so I wouldnt mind if the hardening process took some time. This is assuming that
Doing it that way will not
Affect the hardening

[RobS]

You are good to go, acutally sizing shortly after casting is easier regarding the sizing process since the boolits are softer.

[44man]

I think oven hardening works best for the softer alloys like 50-50.
Just water dropping WW boolits is fine and if one is harder then another and affects how they shoot, I sure can't tell.

[Bret4207]

I thought that oven treating them one would be able to get a higher BHN. I just wonder what BHN I should be shooting for to my boolits to shoot out of my ar and work the action. I am guessing that will be between 2,000 and 2,200 FPS but that is just a guess.

Well I've taken straight ACWW up over 2k with good accuracy and zero leading. Instead of worrying over the "I need HARD alloy" myth why not work on proper static and dynamic fit and see if you even need any additional work for your rifle to shoot well.

BHN means nothing since you have no real idea what you WW alloy is. Start at the beginning.

[Gohon]

Even though I think I know what your question is, a little clarification is in order here. In you post you say "At what point does it pay off to start oven heat treating wheel weights". Now, are you talking about heat treating wheel weights or heat treating bullets made from WW alloy?

[44man]

Depends on where a guy lives. Might need hard WW's for maximum penetration on those liberals standing on the roads counting lost WW's. :D

[Screwbolts]

It has been my findings that getting my .225 molds hot enough to water drop is almost impossible so if i want HC from any 22 cal boolits that I cast. I have to oven heat treat. I do use lino for 22-250 boolitz. What I have found with the ARs is you can heat up the rifle to the point you get lead sickles out the end of the bore, and it doesn't matter what the alloy is. :-)

[white eagle]

been shootin water dropped w/w out of my 220 ai and haven't seen any leading ,yet !

[ian45662]

when I said wheel weights I was referring to the alloy I was using. Sorry I should have mentioned that. The point about getting the mold hot enough is why I was leaning towards oven treating.

[PacMan]

Well as always there are diffrent answers to the same question. I have less experience than everyone but i will toss in my 2 cents worth.

When i water drop wich is most of the time i try to keep the alloy temp. and mold temp as constant as i can. Now having said that i tend to agree with 44Man as to a little difference would take a lot of work to find for little gain.

As Bret says you may not need the hardness of water droped or heat treated.Only you and your gun and loads will make that descision.

All the points that Robs pointed out as to wait times and hardening process are things that you should keep in mind as you journey thru the process.

I am not sure that i always need the hardness of water droping my bullets but i find that i can cast a little quicker without worrying about damage to the bullet when droped. I mostly shoot lever guns and have found that accuracy is really good using properly fit water droped ww so i see no need to look further. If i wanted to heat treat them i can.

AC is a little slower for me but it does have the option of shooting a softer bullet if desired or heat treating if nessary.

Now if you are looking for more expansion then AC will give you more if they will meet your accuracy and velocity needs.

[runfiverun]

the 22's are a different animal. [all small boolits are, from 25 cal down]
mostly i shoot a mix of ww's and soft stuff air cooled. for the 45 acp up through the magnums.
in my rifles i waterdrop. i also weight sort if i want more than plinking ammo.

for the small boolits i go the extra steps. it's necessary, it stops flyers and reduces groups.
if the rifle is capable of good groups then do the extra work.
start with good alloy and go from there.
if you want to just fling brass buy jacketed.