cow over blackpowder for fill

[bigted]

ok got a couple days off and was going to go shoot some 45-120 loads but seem to remember that these loads may not be the best on gun or shooter. they consist of this;

bell 3.250 case sized to grip a rem j bullet
70gr goex 2f compressed
1/8 inch felt over powder wad
remainder of case filled with cow and compressed for bullet to seat
seated bullet [ 405 rem j-word]
cci pistol primer [large]

before i shoot these i cannot remember if i read that shooting filler over bp is a no-no. i dont even want to chance bulging the chamber or ringing it either.

please help before i shoot these.

[powderburnerr]

cow hardens when fired that seems a whole lot of plug from an unenlightened standerby,

molly posted here that it actually made a projectile ,,
the cow would make a plug the felt would compress and you maybe would end up with an air space and two projectiles..worriesome stuff..

[59sharps]

I use cow or grits in my 63 sharps and in my 44-40. and my Roger & Spencer 44 never had a problem others use it in there smiths and maynords

[Dan Cash]

Powderburner has good advice. That load would scare me stupid and I am fearless and brilliant.

[bigted]

well i went out and pulled them for good meassure. i know there is a bunch of area inside that 120 case and the cow was packed pretty tight to begin with so i chickened out and pulled em just to be safe.

i just recieved my 38-55 barrel and am sorely tempted to take the gun/barrel to the doctor and transplant the 120 barrel for the 38. never fooled with the 38's so that could be an adventure for me and let this 45-120 barrel set for awhile and see if the stew it sets in will make more sense at a later date. seems like the barrel should be a snap to replace if i ever get the 120 bug again.

[Tom-ADC]

Bigted what rifle are you using?

[bigted]

tom...it started out as a browning 1885 hiwall in 45-70. someone re-chambered it before it came home with me to the 45-120 chamber and the gun is a miroku browning the same gun as my miroku winchester 45-70.

i love the action and the trigger is just fine for me but the 120 case and loose chamber has just about worn me out for the time being. my right arm is getting larger from all the lead mining ive done with this lead manufacturer. i should just scrape it out into my pot n recast it straight from the barrel...lol

[looseprojectile]

My brain goes into the solve mode.
I first thought of what happens if a man mixed the COW with the powder. Only to attempt to reduce the recoil of the large cased BPCRs.
Would it not work cause the mix would not be consistent?
I am thinking, I know, I know. It would be easy to measure 20% COW into the powder. Maybe use some filter charcoal instad of COW.
Maybe mix it one cartridge at a time? Would it work? Is this one of those, Don't try this at home Things? The search thing don't work for me.
Might this work with smokeless powder?
I'll betcha Buckshot or Bruce has tried this.

Life is good

[webfoot10]

bigted; After you drop your powder charge, just fill the case up with Rice Krispes to the top
then seat your card wad and boolit. The rice krispes will compress to fill the air space and
do not form a hard wad because of the air in the cereal. I use these in my 45/70 all the
time. Smells like you are baking cookies when fired. webfoot10

[NickSS]

I load a lot of reduced loads in my 45-70s for 200yard shooting. My favorite load is a 400 gr slug with 50 gr of FFG and 20 gr by Volume of corn meal with a .030 card wad. I pour the FFG down a drop tube followed by the corn meal followed by the card wad. This is compressed with my compression die to allow seating of the bullet. Accuracy is good, recoil is reduced and the 200 yard steel targets fall over. What could be better. By the way, a smell of baked corn muffins can be smelled in the air too.

[nanuk]

the only thing I have ever read to be concerned about was the moisture transfer.

something about moisture in the powder migrating to the COW, and making the COW a plug, and drying the BP out so much it changes burning rate... Hence it was recommended to use inert filler. something non-natural material

or something like that...

anyone else heard of this?

[Tom-ADC]

I loaded up some reduced loads for my Smith last week, 28 grs of FFFg with COW over the top but no card, hope this is still good to shoot after sitting 3 weeks or so.

[Bullshop]

Try styrofoam packing popcorn.

[405]

Even if the COW turned into a compressed plug, I don't think much would happen. I've shot some shotshell buffer over BP then loaded with regular compression- no problems. Also shot a wad column of card and cork wads over BP to reduce charge- no problem. Both of these wad types are only semi compressible, even the shotshell filler is less compressible than one would think. Wads or COW in straight-walled cases is one thing. Have also shot all manner of wads over BP in muzzleloaders with no issues. I will not load any type of wad or COW or similar in a bottleneck type BP cartridge if the wad goes below the neck. I use wads in bottleneck BP loading but only with the powder charge above the bottom of the neck. The thought of a hardened, compressed plug of COW trapped below the neck gives me the heebie jeebies.

[bigted]

cool...i un-loaded these cases and allowed myself the privlidge of shooting some smokeless loads thru it for the last hoorah. i took the 38-55 barrel and the rifle to the doctor for a re-barrel job. ill let this 45-120 barrel set in the wings for awhile and allow myself the fun of another cartridge to play with. cant wait for it to get done. it will wear a #4 winchester taper barrel of 30 inches with a standard 38-55 chamber. im having the barrel top flat cut for dovetails and drilled and tapped for the long 6x malcom type scope ive had setting around for awhile. this is gonna be a hoot i figure as ive never played with the 38-55 cartridge before...just what i need...some more stuff to get for casting n loading.

the 45-120 thumper has been sweet and fullfilled a want that i had to scratch but think ive got it scratched and the itch dealt with for the current time anyway. will still have the barrel for later if the itch comes back to haunt.

thanks for the help everybody with the 120 case and the input for ideas to try as well as the encouragment i continue to recieve here.

[rockrat]

I use grits for a filler

[reivertom]

Have the old barrel cut off and rechambered for 45/70.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Reivertom,

That wont work you no longer have a tulip on the barrel to butt up to the receiver.

KW
The Lunger

[Boz330]

My brain goes into the solve mode.
I first thought of what happens if a man mixed the COW with the powder. Only to attempt to reduce the recoil of the large cased BPCRs.
Would it not work cause the mix would not be consistent?
I am thinking, I know, I know. It would be easy to measure 20% COW into the powder. Maybe use some filter charcoal instad of COW.
Maybe mix it one cartridge at a time? Would it work? Is this one of those, Don't try this at home Things? The search thing don't work for me.
Might this work with smokeless powder?
I'll betcha Buckshot or Bruce has tried this.

Life is good

I use a mix of 50-50 COW and 3F BP on top of 65gr of 1F in my 577-450 MH. The standard case will hold 115gr of BP and out of a military weight rifle, that is more fun than I can stand.
Here is what the rifle is capable of at 100yds with that load. The only load that has shot any better than this is a full case of canon grade, but the barrel is so fouled after 5 shots that a full blown cleaning is the only thing that will even let the sixth shot even hit the same county.

Bob

[John Boy]

please help before i shoot these.
Make wads using floral foam, the green dense stuff. Craft stores stock it
On ignition, it creates a fluff and creates no residue in the bore

[bigted]

these suggestions are all cool but correct me if im wrong here...if loading "short" loads of blackpowder in these long cases ...wouldnt the packing popcorn and rice crispys and such lite crushable substances not be great with the compression needed with the blackpowder? wouldnt these crushables just crush rite away and leave the air pocket that is suppose to be good for ringing and bulging barrels?

[looseprojectile]

Thanks Boz I was afraid I had lost my grip. I have read this somewhere. Could have been from a nut such as me. Sounds like a lot of powder even with the mix reducing the load.
65 grains 1F + 50 percent of the space that is left = 100 grains or more.
I am beginning to think that I could qualify as a couch commando. Gotta get out and shoot more. Good shooting with a MH. I sometimes do that good with several BPCRs.

Life is good

[RMulhern]

:killingpc:groner:[smilie=b::holysheep:rolleyes::confused::brokenima

[cajun shooter]

Rick, I love your post!! I spilled my coffee when I saw it. Big Ted, If I was going to make a reduced load Why would you mix it with the powder?It seems from all I have learnrd over the years that would reduce your charge by leaps and bounds. All BP regardless of grain size burns from it's outer surface. If these surface area's are seperated by COW then your burn will be slower and uneven as you could have COW between the grains. Would it not be better to drop your grains of BP then insert a card of your choice. Then load the COW to the top of case before seating bullet.

[Boz330]

A wad column is all that you need in a straight wall case. I use a wad column suggested by Kenny W in my 40-65 that takes up .250 but gives the weight of powder and compression that shoots the best in my gun. I'm sure that anything mentioned would work ok but one combination or the other should give good accuracy.
As far as the COW BP mix in a straight wall case, I doubt that there is any advantage and a lot more hassle. OTOH in a severe bottleneck case as the 577-450 the COW by itself would create a slug in the case neck and we are talking 130 to 140 year old guns. In the burning process the COW is consumed in the ignition to a point that it isn't a problem. The MH was designed for a foil wrapped cartridge that held significantly less powder than the extruded cartridge. The Brits used carded wool to fill the case and the LOC load was 85gr of 1F. I have tried several fillers and the COW-BP mix gave the best results. Accuracy wasn't paramount when massed troops stood in blocks and threw lead at each other, but it is to me.
There are folks on this forum that will tell you that they don't worry about reduced loads (with an airspace) in BPCR and do it all of the time with no ill results. To each his own.

[405]

Boz,
I'm glad you posted that about certain of the old MH rounds. A certain member, self- proclaimed MH "expert" here called me out a year ago or so on the forum because I stated the same thing about the old "wrapped case" with base wad, reduced capacity MH rounds.

[bigted]

Rick, I love your post!! I spilled my coffee when I saw it. Big Ted, If I was going to make a reduced load Why would you mix it with the powder?It seems from all I have learnrd over the years that would reduce your charge by leaps and bounds. All BP regardless of grain size burns from it's outer surface. If these surface area's are seperated by COW then your burn will be slower and uneven as you could have COW between the grains. Would it not be better to drop your grains of BP then insert a card of your choice. Then load the COW to the top of case before seating bullet.



well cajun... that is exactly what i did as my origanal post stated and also i never suggested "mixing" the cow into the powder...that suggestion came from someone else im afraid.

my latest question never-tha-less is...how is rice crispies and packing popcorn or other lite substanses not making the dreaded air space behind the boolit when loading with blackpowder

[Boz330]

well cajun... that is exactly what i did as my origanal post stated and also i never suggested "mixing" the cow into the powder...that suggestion came from someone else im afraid.

my latest question never-tha-less is...how is rice crispies and packing popcorn or other lite substanses not making the dreaded air space behind the boolit when loading with blackpowder

The way I understand it, and I might be wrong, the explosion of the BP causes a shock wave that hits the boolit and bounces back into the expanding gases creating an excess pressure situation before the boolit moves. Anything that absorbs or disrupts the shock wave negates the problem.
I have used kapok as a filler which is about as fluffy a material as you can find but it works. Dacron filler is basically the same. These are both being used as a filler not a wad.
The COW-BP mix suggestion came from me and it is a method that I have been using for 6 years now and the target proves that it works. The entire charge is not mixed. It is 65gr of 1F with the mix on top of that and it has to fill the case to the neck. 115 to 120gr of BP in a 7lb gun is brutal, especially since the gun was designed for 85gr. I really could care less if you think it works or not or if you want to try it, you asked for comments and I put it forward. As I said before in a straight wall case I would go with wads. That also works for me in my straight wall cases.

Bob

[Jim]

..... I have used kapok as a filler ..... Bob

You just told on your age, Boz! :kidding:
I've heard VERY few people mention kapok since it was introduced to me in the late 70's by men that were old enough to be my father!

[Boz330]

Looking at your picture I'm not old enough to be your father, maybe brother.

The only reason that I have kapok is that several years ago I hosted a MH match at my farm and several companies that specialize in Martini Henrys donated prizes. One of the prizes was a 10lb box of kapok.:shock: Everyone that attended took as much kapok as they wanted and the box was still full. I sent some of the kapok to a friend in South Africa who probably passed some of it out down there and the box was still full. I have enough kapok for several life times. I have tried it in the 577-450 and numerous smokeless loads and it hasn't done what I was hoping for. I don't think that is the rule just that I haven't found the perfect combination. I am working on a couple different cast, smokeless loads right now that I intend to try it on though.

Anyone needing any kapok drop me a PM and I'll fix you up with a lifetime supply. A little bit goes a long way. That stuff is so light the post office will probably pay me to ship it.

Bob

[Gripmaker]

Caulk backer rod works just great as a filler. Can get it at home improvement and hardware stores. It comes in a coil and 7/16" rod works for any 44/45 cal cases. FYI, it shoots out llike a shotgun wad with no adverse affects.

[RMulhern]

Fill the damn case w/1F powder and shoot it! That's the only way your're going to get best accuracy!!!

[Lead pot]

:holysheep Rick Im waiting for someone to come up with a pop corn filler.[smilie=l:

[Gunlaker]

:holysheep Rick Im waiting for someone to come up with a pop corn filler.[smilie=l:

The Fg idea is good, but wow popcorn! Would you use it unpopped or popped? [smilie=b:

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Unpopped, that way you'ld have a nice snack out in front of the muzzle between shots...

[semtav]

Have the old barrel cut off and rechambered for 45/70.

Unless one can do it themselves, that would probably cost as much as just having it rebarreled to a caliber and length you want.I'd maybe opt for 45-90 if I was going to cut it off.

[wgr]

Make wads using floral foam, the green dense stuff. Craft stores stock it
On ignition, it creates a fluff and creates no residue in the bore

how do you cut it/are do you just grind it up