.44 mag help

[kweidner]

i have a SBH in 44 mag i am currently working on. I am running .431 250 keiths dropping at 255 grains from ww air cooled out of it and trying to find a casual plinking load. the cylinder throats are all at .430 with the exception of 2 at .432. I have tried bullseye at 5 grains and a couple loads of 4227. the forcing cone and first bit of the bbl is leading pretty bad. I would love a way to fix this without firelapping. what do you guys suggest? i am seating bullets to crimp groove and using blue angel lube...it gets hot around here in the summer.

if the definitive solution is to firelap can I use my current bullets and will the wheeler engineering compound (midway) work as i do have 220, 320, and 600 grit on hand.

thanks in advance

Ken

[GP100man]

Ken , low pressure loads work better with softer alloys , it allows the boolit to start obturating earlier & thus sealing the chamber/barrel qwiker .

I am in the middle of aCarnauba Red lube migration test ,I have some 38spc. under the seat of my truck & I always lock it up tite (inside temp 130-140) in the summer & so far no migration in 3 yrs , I shoot 10 of em a yr.

[white eagle]

try dropping your alloy in water then wait for a week and shoot
I have had better luck with a harder alloy or use a g/c
try water dropping them you may be surprised

[kelbro]

The Wheeler compounds worked well for me.

[Lloyd Smale]

I too would try harder before id try softer. Its been a rare experince to me when softer alloys helped leading. Id also check the barrel to cylinder alignment. Leading in the forcing cone doesnt have much to do with the condition of the barrel and if the bullets are slaming into the forcing cone off center that will cause your leading in the first part of your barrel. You might too want to try an lfn. they usually work a bit better in a gun that hasnt go perfect alignment.

[44man]

Ken , low pressure loads work better with softer alloys , it allows the boolit to start obturating earlier & thus sealing the chamber/barrel qwiker .

I am in the middle of aCarnauba Red lube migration test ,I have some 38spc. under the seat of my truck & I always lock it up tite (inside temp 130-140) in the summer & so far no migration in 3 yrs , I shoot 10 of em a yr.
This gets close to an old wives tale. Proper size boolits need zero expansion to obturate and any that do are slumping bad too. Do you know the grease grooves can disappear before the boolit leaves the throat, compressing to nothing and the lube leaves the gap?
Consider the pressure! What is low pressure? Define a low pressure load!
A fast powder will be smacking the boolit with 19,000 to 25,000 PSI before the boolit leaves the case and throat. That fast pressure spike is ruinous to lead.
Lloyd and White Eagle are in agreement with me here. Years of testing with fast powders has shown that even harder boolits are needed then you can use with a slow powder.
First picture is what your "obturation" does to a soft boolit with fast powder. The recovered boolit should never look any different then the one on the left. Notice the grease grooves on the right boolit and the nose.
Next are 25 yard groups shot first with water dropped WW boolits at 22 BHN, on the left. Then the same shot at 28 BHN. No lead in the bore from either but the hard boolits are more accurate. The same held to 50 yards.

[kweidner]

so many things to think about.......i have a hornet that refused to shoot....it took me four years to find "the load".... i swear i would put it up against some of my bench rest guns. I WIll NOT give up. if it takes me 3 different moulds 2 barrels and a cylinder or two it WILL happen......just maybe not in it's current configuration. My best freind is a gunsmith. I should mention I almost rechambered that hornet but my pure thick headedness would not let it best me. he laughed at the time but it will do the deed now. I simply want this sbh to shoot lead accurate with minimal fouling. if I want a forcing that looked like it does now I would break out the soldering iron and solder and give it to my three year old!

44 man what is your powder of choice?

[rugerdude]

I don't know about 44man, but I have had excellent results with 2400 and Blue Dot for full power loads.

For lighter loads I stick with Unique. 7.5 grains under a 250 grain Keith is a great load that, to me, is a pleasure to shoot all day.

Hope you get things worked out. Its been my experience that its a rare SBH that won't shoot well. If all else fails, try some 240 grain XTPs in it. If they don't shoot, you might be in trouble!

[WMB30]

kweidner

This article by Fermin Garza in Gunblast may be of interest to you

www.gunblast.com/FerminGarza-Firelapping.htm

Bill

[RobS]

kweidner:

Pull a boolit from a loaded round and see if the base of it is still the diameter you sized it at. Age hardening of WW alloy is something often overlooked and a boolit can be too soft if loaded only a few days after casting. Waiting a week or two ensures that the boolits have age hardened to a settled hardness which for air cooled clip on wheel weights is anywhere from 11-14 it appears these days.

[leadman]

Might want to get the cylinder throats uniformed so they are all the same dimension of .432". You are shooting a .431" boolet thru 2 .432" holes, not good.
Have you slugged the barrel? My old model SBH has a large bore at .432".
Definitely water quench your boolits.

[GP100man]

Fellers I`ll agree some fitting would definitely work , but sometimes ya gotta try !!!!

& agreed the first thing to do is uniform the throats !

[RobS]

Uniform cylinder throats would be something I would correct if it were mine.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

try boolits!

[Bass Ackward]

Try just shooting with the two chambers that are .432. See if you get lead. I don't think you will, but you need to try this to answer your fire lap question.

If no lead, Google for the Cylindersmith. Even out the throats. Then shoot what you want to decide if you still need to fire lap.

[44man]

I use all kinds of powder. For plinking I use mostly Unique and 231. Once in a while 2400 for more power but for accuracy and deer I use 296.
I just water drop my WW boolits for deer and at all normal ranges they kill fast without any expansion. However at long range I think some expansion would be better because it takes longer for deer to die and farther to find blood.
I still want the hard drive bands so I am going to make the nose softer next season. Just a small amount of upset should do it because I don't want to lose penetration.
I have shot a semi wad cutter forever but never had the kind of accuracy I wanted and I admit it surprised me that very hard was better. I used to love the original 429421 but sadly sold it. I now have the RCBS. Only used for can shooting, etc.
I use a WLNGC for target and deer. I want to make a mold for a WFNPB since gas checks are made from unobtainium! [smilie=b:
Most any boolit will shoot from the .44 but the WLN and RNFP is still best. The thing to do is to fiddle with the boolit toughness to match the powder and load. On the average, plain old WD WW's will do anything.
The next is the lube, you will be surprised how a poor lube alone can destroy groups. I like CR and Felix. Both group about the same.
I never use a mag primer in the .44 either, no matter the weather or powder. Been testing primers since 1956 and in every case, a mag primer has tripled groups.
This is a super boolit! The RD 265 gr with 22 gr of 296, Felix lube, Fed 150 primer. It will hold 3/4" at 50 yards and 1-1/4" at 100 if I do my part. Next is the Lee 310, the LBT 320 and my copy at 330 gr.
The SBH might not be the most accurate revolver but it will shoot great with anything from 240 to 330 gr. Bioman has the Hunter and he was shooting 1/2" groups at 50 yards with my 330 gr boolit.
I don't know how to stress that you do not want anything to happen to your boolit when shot except to have the rifling engraved.
Here is a perfect recovered boolit from my .45, no deformation, no skid and all the lube spun out at the muzzle. Just WW metal too.

[kweidner]

i fixed the cylinder. turns out those two bigger ones were actually .431 with pin gages. i also firelapped.....95 percent of the leading is gone.....just a little at the start of the forcing cone. after firelapping, i fired three cylinders of old load. i just pushed a dry patch through to see. one word.....WOW. i am going to have to order a new mould now. I think i want steel and drop ww at . 433. i guess i am going to have to ream sizer to .432. ok next question.....i know i am opening a can of worms.....what design do you find most accurate with lead bases no gas checks.....thanks for all the help so far.......i can see my reflection in the bbl. and already it shoots really well. i should also mention i slugged that .bbl as well. there was constriction at the threads by .0015. it is gone now and.bbl slugs .4295 with no constrictions.

[MtGun44]

Keith types - Lyman 429421 or H&G 503. Mihec makes a BEAUTIFUL 503 clone mold (http://www.mp-molds.com/)
which is a typical Miha mold, in a word - fantastic.

Some OK results with Lee 310GC but hate dealing with GCs, so it will hit the road after a while.

A couple of LBT molds do well, too, but not as well as the Keiths, so far. Have not had the
time to work with them as much. Some say LBTs are more accurate than Keiths, so far, I haven't seen it.

Bill

[44man]

That can be a problem. Seems as if there are only Keith style boolit molds for PB.
There are fine fellas here that can make a mold for a PB in any style.
I like the LBT style or a RNFP and have never seen a need for a gas check in any revolver, even my 45-70 at over 1600 fps. Just make the boolit harder and tougher.

[Bass Ackward]

I like the LBT style or a RNFP and have never seen a need for a gas check in any revolver, even my 45-70 at over 1600 fps. Just make the boolit harder and tougher.


I'm going to call you on this cause your words aren't matching your actions.

Why just the other day you listed the top five or six bullets for accuracy in 44 caliber and the top three were GC design. I wasn't sure about the fourth one. I almost fell over and I had to wipe coffee off my monitor.

If a man is going to say that accuracy is everything, and a person should always STRIVE for the best, then one MUST conclude that he is using the most accurate bullets which are GC designs.

And I think that is what you should spout. But that's just me. :grin:

[Lloyd Smale]

in my experience theres no doubt a gas checked bullet is eaiser to work loads up for then a plain based bullet. Even at lower velocitys ive had better luck with them. Now theres no doubt theres some dud gas check bullet designs. But there much rarer then duds that are plain base. If im loading up plinking ammo plain based bullets are fine but for any serious work with a handgun youll find mine usually loaded with gas checked bullets.

[44man]

I'm going to call you on this cause your words aren't matching your actions.

Why just the other day you listed the top five or six bullets for accuracy in 44 caliber and the top three were GC design. I wasn't sure about the fourth one. I almost fell over and I had to wipe coffee off my monitor.

If a man is going to say that accuracy is everything, and a person should always STRIVE for the best, then one MUST conclude that he is using the most accurate bullets which are GC designs.

And I think that is what you should spout. But that's just me. :grin:
It was a complete lack of experience on my part. When I bought my first .475 Lee mold I asked them why it was not a gas check boolit. I found it was exceptional and have made many molds PB up to the .50 Alaskan. Just need to make the boolit tougher.
It is true that it is hard to find a PB mold for the .44 and I have not made one yet. I have to answer that my most accurate boolits do have a gas check because that is how the molds are made, not that a PB is less accurate. There is just no choice if you buy a mold. Only a Keith style is offered in a PB. You know I don't like them.
I was a little dense in the head until I figured out why a gas check is needed. It is for a softer alloy so skid is stopped.
Yeah, I made some .44 molds to take a gas check and now wonder why I did that extra work.
If you use softer lead for hunting, the gas check still has a place.
The gas check is a wonderful thing but it is not needed all the time.

[Char-Gar]

I don't see that you are doing anything wrong. Water drooping those bullet will only increase your leading. ACWW should do fine. You sizing is fine. I can only offer two suggestions.

1. The dream of zero visable lead with PB bullets are just that a dream. If the lead brushes out with a dozen or so passes and accuracy hold up for 50 rounds or better, just forget about it and enjoy your handgun.

2. You might have a rough forcing cone, but Ruger is pretty good about cutting smooth ones.

The bottom line is suspect you don't have any problems at all, just need a little adjustment in expectations.

[Bass Ackward]

The larger the bore diameter the faster or shorter the pressure spike above what a certain hardness / toughness can handle.

Generally, you have enough lube to handle that short crossing above the hardness of the bullet. (plastic region) And the bigger the bullet diameter, the stronger a bullet is at the same hardness.


So either way, the larger the bore and the smaller the case, the easier it is to shoot PB.

So Elmer's old statement that there is no purpose for a GC on a pistol bullet is like saying that there is no purpose for face masks on a football helmet. Yea you can do without, and you can certainly do without for awhile, but if you want to look good for a long time, you better use one. Goes for face masks or boolits.

[MtGun44]

I have not found one single example of a GC design which is most accurate in any of my .357 or
.44 mag pistols, and we are not talking about 2 guns and 3 boolit designs here. In my
experience, PBs are very accurate, GCs have not equalled in any case, let alone exceeded
the accy that I get from various Kieth and LBT style PB designs, all the way up to max
loads.

Making broad statements like "GC designs are the most accurate" should
be related to "in my experience". I absolutely do not buy that GCs are "most accurate"
in any sort of absolute sense. My experience matches Elmer's, I find no place where
GCs are useful in pistols. Rifles, yes.

Bill

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
The gas check, is a useful tool to solve some problems, not all.
It is just 1 tool, ex. there are 1/2 a doz. wrenches ,sockets, & pliers styles & all can turn a bolt or a nut.
GC MAKES THINGS EASIER, like sockets.
For me , I would love a PB bullet in the 265-280 gr. range that I could shoot out of my 44 mag. accurately, with about a .33 medplat.
IT WOULD SAVE ME $100 IN 4YRS. EASY!
DOES ANYONE MAKE ONE?????????????
HAS ANYONE HAD GOOD PERFORMANCE WITH ONE???????????:Fire::Fire:

[kweidner]

i really appreciate all the feedback. keep it coming. I found a cool set of gages today at harbor freight for measuring ID of throats. http://www.harborfreight.com/6-piece-telescoping-gauge-set-5649.html. I was able to fine tune my throats within .0002. I measured them four times and they fell within + or - .0001 everytime. my bbl slugs at .4292 and is now firelapped with no restrictions. my throats are .4312 to .4314. I opened up sizing die and it is swaging to .4319 I now need a mould at .4330. I am going to try to open that Lyman up another .0015. if Lyman doesn't work out i am going to order a custom. I also smelted another 150 pounds of ww saturday and dropped 400 for my .45. It has been in the seventies here and i had the couldn't stop it syndrome this weekend :bigsmyl2: now for that mould........it will probably take a couple days to get it right. Am i missing something? I like the challenge this thing has presented. it has been a learning experience. I couldn't have even gotten this far without all the combined knowledge here. you guys really know your stuff. The do it yourself atmosphere is AWESOME.

[Lloyd Smale]

right now i have over 15 guns in 44 mag and probably twice that many molds in 44. I shoot 44s more then all the other calibers i shoot combined. I wont make a blanket statement like a gas check is absolutely needed but will say that if im looking for a load that shoots into 2 inches at 50 yards with a 44 it probably takes half the load development time using gas checked bullets. Now if a guy has one or two guns and wants to fool around with every powder and primer combo and also every alloy he can make up theres no doubt an accurate plain based load can be found but I dont allways have that luxury. I can look at my load data for everything from the 32 to the 500 linebaugh in pistols and 32s to 50aks in rifles and just about everyone of my most accurate loads in every gun i own is with a gas checked bullet. So IN MY EXPERIENCE theres no doubt a gas checked bullet is more accurate. Another thing i look at is loads that shoot well in not only one gun but many. It saves time not having to load 20 differnt loads for 20 differnt guns. Ive got loads with a few differnt bullets that shoot real well in about any gun there put in and just about all of them are again gas checked bullets. Maybe its a coincidense but i tend to doubt it. Then ill add that like 44man said another thing that gas checks allow for is versitility. It will allow someone to use much softer lead and still retain accuracy. If a guy wants to fool with soft bullets for expansion or soft hp bullets a gas check is even more important. Yes they cost money I probably use at least 3k 44 gas checks a year. So thats about a 100 bucks a year. Now some guys will scoff at spending that but some that do dont think twice about going out to the bar and spending that much in a weekend or buying some chrome dodad for there truck or bike. Me i shoot and shooting is my only hobby anymore and a 100 bucks over a year is pocket change in the big picture.
I have not found one single example of a GC design which is most accurate in any of my .357 or
.44 mag pistols, and we are not talking about 2 guns and 3 boolit designs here. In my
experience, PBs are very accurate, GCs have not equalled in any case, let alone exceeded
the accy that I get from various Kieth and LBT style PB designs, all the way up to max
loads.

Making broad statements like "GC designs are the most accurate" should
be related to "in my experience". I absolutely do not buy that GCs are "most accurate"
in any sort of absolute sense. My experience matches Elmer's, I find no place where
GCs are useful in pistols. Rifles, yes.

Bill

[Bass Ackward]

You are correct Bill with blanket statements. My point was that it goes both ways.

I think that if you look at the recommendations of the board, the general consensus is that PB dominates in use with techniques following that line. And the party line here is that PB are the most accurate. It's stated over and over again with techniques geared for that purpose.

People always tell me that I don't do my part to help new casters / shooters. I disagree if not just for the contrary opinion.

That GC frees you from having to have knowledge or a single technique or special large diameter molds in everything from diameter, hardness, lube, powder speeds, fire lapping, and to an extent velocity limits to get a guy shooting cast accurately and sometimes cheaper overall with less problems, faster than a PB design. Even leading is more of a problem for PB because leading for GCs are mostly low spots as the check removes the high spots.

In fact, I see a need for every bore diameter to have at least one GC break-in bullet to get you to PB heaven if and when the gun finally decrees it is ready. If this gun doesn't need it, chances are the next one a fella buys will. So why not start with a GC mold to start out?

And if you watch group buys for GCs or molds the numbers are staggering. I would say that GCs garner a larger percentage of people's shooting inventory here than what is posted and by a darn site.

I just admit it is all. Because I shoot many guns in the same caliber. Be nice to see others give a picture of the other side of the coin when it applies.

[44man]

I will never say one is more accurate then another because both work for me. However I made a GC boolit mold for my .475 and several PB molds. The GC mold is almost the same as the PB and both are very accurate with the same charge, in fact the GC boolit cut almost one hole at 50 yards. The bad thing was that the GC boolit was showing pressure and a stuck case now and then so I had to cut the charge for it. That reduced my accuracy a little with that boolit. It only weighs 4 gr more then the PB.
I have never had that happen with any other gun and all boolits near the same weight will use the same charge.
Why that boolit needs to be shot faster then is safe, for accuracy, is baffling because I shoot much, much heavier boolits slower with super accuracy.

[Bass Ackward]

I have never had that happen with any other gun and all boolits near the same weight will use the same charge.

Why that boolit needs to be shot faster then is safe, for accuracy, is baffling because I shoot much, much heavier boolits slower with super accuracy.



The lighter per caliber a bullet is, the more (the higher the percentage) the center of balance will be altered / shifted when lead is removed from the back. Lead weights more than copper.

Move the center of balance forward and it takes more velocity to stabilize it. It's the same reason that hollow pointing makes the biggest accuracy difference in light per caliber slugs cause you push the CofB back.

So the real truth is that you simply can't have a PB and a GC that are "identical" and then compare accuracy because they aren't. The CofB will be different. But the effect does lessen with longer (heavier) slugs.

Another way of putting it is that it is much easier to design heavy for caliber bullets that work than it is for light ones.

[white eagle]

I don't see that you are doing anything wrong. Water drooping those bullet will only increase your leading. ACWW should do fine. You sizing is fine. I can only offer two suggestions.

1. The dream of zero visable lead with PB bullets are just that a dream. If the lead brushes out with a dozen or so passes and accuracy hold up for 50 rounds or better, just forget about it and enjoy your handgun.

2. You might have a rough forcing cone, but Ruger is pretty good about cutting smooth ones.

The bottom line is suspect you don't have any problems at all, just need a little adjustment in expectations.

I agree totally...... came to that realization after supposedly doing everything the way I was supposed to and still came out of the range with leaded bore
mind you not like I poured it it the bore but just a few wire brush washes and out it goes
gas checks for me have made my life easier and also saves time and money,which I can use to buy checks,
i also came to the realization that with a g/c I can use softer alloy and still have a protected base and not hassle with a soft point pour
most all my molds are being swapped out for gas check designs
in my limited experience [smilie=s:

[Char-Gar]

White Eagle

I do not belong to either the gas check or plain base camp. I have found each has it's place and it's proper use. 95% of my shooting is done with PB bullets. GC bullet can make life a little easier sometimes and certainly make the use of hollow points easier. Please note, I said "easier" and not "essential". I don't want to get another bunch of folks ratchet jawed because they reacted to a post in place of reading the post.

[theperfessor]

+1 to Chargar's comments, his usage of PB vs GC mirrors my own.

[44man]

+1 to Chargar's comments, his usage of PB vs GC mirrors my own.
I like them both----until I price checks and postage. SS only goes so far and the things are getting close to gold coins in value, I can't afford one of them either! [smilie=l:
I have nothing at all against gas checks except the dollar signs. Now if they put a cap on each GC and filled each with Jack, it would be worthwhile! :holysheep

[Frank]

44man:
I have nothing at all against gas checks except the dollar signs. Now if they put a cap on each GC and filled each with Jack, it would be worthwhile!
.45 Colt doesn't need GC's. I took a PB 350 grn 45-70 boolit and sized it .452 and it shoots right next to the Lee 300GC, 22 grns H110. I like the PB, no GC to install. Less labor. 8-)

[white eagle]

excuse me fellas but I was refering to the leading issue
to my limited experience was added to my view on gas checks and their use
Frank why ya holding back on the h110 the colt needs to breathe

[kweidner]

well Ilapped the mould out today. got it where I wanted with less than .0004 run out. I cast 30 or so and weighed them. I randomly measured 12 out of the thirty or so. Holy **** they are all within .2 grains. You guys wish me luck. I am going to wait a couple days to size those water quenched ww and see how the go.

K

[EDK]

HI,
The gas check............................................. .................................................. ............

For me , I would love a PB bullet in the 265-280 gr. range that I could shoot out of my 44 mag. accurately, with about a .33 medplat.
IT WOULD SAVE ME $100 IN 4YRS. EASY!
DOES ANYONE MAKE ONE?????????????
HAS ANYONE HAD GOOD PERFORMANCE WITH ONE???????????:Fire::Fire:

Swede Nelson and his helpers at NOE are very accomodating to making your mould in plain base, gas check or combination of. I already had a two and six cavity version of the RANCH DOG TLC 432 265, but don't really need gas checks for my pistol shooting. So Swede and the boys made me a five cavity plain base of their lube groove clone of the RANCH DOG. I have done close to my best ever groups with this boolit and 8 grains of TITEGROUP in Original Size 44 VAQUEROS with 5.5 and 7.5 inch barrels. The gas checked RANCH DOG version, tumbled lubed with LLA per RD's tutorial, will clean lead while you are shooting....don't know if it is the design, LLA or the gas check, but it works for me! I shoot 6 of the RD gas checks and all is well for awhile. I size to .431 or .432, depending on the boolit, for use in assorted VAQUEROS and MARLIN COWBOY RIFLES....providing boolits for 20+ guns! Got a bunch of moulds of various designs, but these are two of the best.

Gas checks are nice, but the price isn't! I'll use a few, but not my usual 48 rounds a day.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[Frank]

white eagle:
Frank why ya holding back on the h110 the colt needs to breathe

The .45 Colt has a faster twist so less is needed. But if I go super hard, then I can take it up to higher velocity.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Thank you very much for the info.:Fire::Fire:

[MtGun44]

Not the $$ for GCs, just that my experience has not been good in either .44 or .357 AND
much more important to me, they are fiddly little SOBs to work with. I put up with them in
rifles because they make a big difference, although I have far less rifle cast boolit experience
than pistols experience.

I got decent results with 358156, but best with several different PBs. With the two most
commonly touted .44 molds, I had poor results - no leading, but no accy either. These
are 429215 and 429255 IIRC. Even searched out a 431255 (again from memory) and
it did no better. Once I learned how to do PBs, I have only tried one GC design, the
310Lee .44 because it was touted a lot. Again, mediocre accy with the first 10 loads
tried, haven't had time to get back. Haven't totally written it off, but it has not been an
instant hit design with me, either.

I will report of never having leading with a GC design, and for the beginner that is having
leading problems, maybe this is A solution. But so is a larger diameter boolit in a good PB
design, most of the time.

I freely admit that my experience is apparently different with pistol GCs than a lot of folks that
I have had a lot of matching experience with on other subjects. What I might be doing
different/wrong, I'm not sure. I do know that I am just happy as can be without any GCs
in any pistols. Especially pleased that I don't have to fiddle with the little boogers, too.
Plus, my large quantity boolits run thru the Stars and I don't even know if you can do GCs
in a Star, never even thought about it.

Bill

[Lloyd Smale]

yes you can do gas checks on a star. What some people just dont get is NO bullet is a guranteed accurate bullet in every gun. ALL bullets will usually require some load development which includes trying differnt powders, primers, and alloys to get the most out of the bullet. Gas checked bullets are not an exception to this. They are a bit more forgiving but youll still find guns that just wont shoot a certain bullet. They also wont correct a gun that is out of spec or a set of dies that dont give enough case tension ect. Id have to wager that when i get a new revolver it will see at least a 1000 rounds of load development shooting before i settle on a couple good loads for it. That usually entails shooting about 10 differnt bullets, a couple differnt primers and a at least two diffenent alloys. Now that is just to find one load like say a 250 grian bullet at a 1000 fps. After that i will sometimes start all over to find a heavy bullet load for the same gun. Sure you can luck into a load quickly and most times i find that its a gas checked bullet that it happens with. Used to be even when i found a good load id keep going hopping for more but when a guy accumlates as many sixguns as i have you get tired of it and anymore when a good load is found that part of the process ends. Thats why i prefer gas checked bullets. It usually makes the load developement end sooner and allows me to spend time shooting my gun other then on a bench.

My loading practices might seem extreem to some but there really not. I really should spend twice the time i do with each new gun. If i was the type that only bought one new gun a year i could do that. Like I said earlier a plain based bullet can be made to shoot probalby as well as a gas checked bullet but it takes time. Theres a few guys on here like 44mag, Bass and Babore that will take a gun and make about anything shoot well in it. Why? because they spend days on end experimenting. There not afraid to take loading to the most technical aspect. Me im a shooter first. Loading is something i do to be able to shoot alot and shoot cheaper. Sometimes these two thing clash like in buying gas checks.

Another reason i like gas checked bullets is im not one to sit down to cast and only cast a handfull of bullets. When i run a mold ill run a couple coffee cans of bullets. I will need those bullets to shoot in a number of handguns and in most cases rifles chambered in those calibers too. Im not going to waste my time casting some **** soft lead bullet that will bump up in a certain gun that has something wrong with it. If the guns out of spec i fix it or peddle it. One day i might grab a can of bullets and expect them to shoot well at 900 fps out of a handgun and the next day grab the same bullet an expect it to shoot a 18oo fps out of a rifle. I also cast alot of hps. Them i like a bit on the soft side and gas checks still allow me the flexibility to shoot them accross a wide range of velocitys. Personaly id never again buy a hp mold for a mag hangun or rifle that didnt have a gas check design.

I have to chuckle occasionaly at some guys that want a plain based bullet for something like a 454 or linebaugh or a big smith. they complain that they cost 30 bucks a thousand and cant afford that. Hell the guns cost at least a grand and if you can justify paying that much for a gun and then are to cheap to buy a 30 dollar box of gas checks you probably should have stuck with a blackhawk. To me its about like buying a ferarri and then claiming you cant afford to use anything but regular gas.

[Bass Ackward]

See I look at it a little differently than just finding a load. That's a short term attack. I want long term information if I am going to keep a gun so future load development goes faster.

I consider the process as learning the gun as taught by Professor Gun himself. Each gun WILL have preferences for everything. (and it is usually different from my others in that caliber)

If I learn the gun. Then learn the powder /primer combos, I can fuss less with alloys, lubes, or designs (molds are expensive and you NEVER have molded what you need) and this is what REALLY eats up the time. I do do this when I have time. I do this to really understand why I got what I got and it speeds up future load development.

For me, I rate sizing right up there with GCs as the biggest .... ease to accuracy factors. Of all the handguns I own, only one (5 1/2" Redhawk) unconditionally loves fat bullets. The bulk of my guns like designs (are VASTLY more flexible) closer to or at bore diameter.

Well, if that is the case, and the throats aren't there to support that, then you almost ALWAYS are forced to a GC bullet or just live with some leading. And that is OK too as it cleans out.

THAT's why I like my 625s because they are the least finicky off all so I can shoot PB very easily. Coarse they are ALL very tight throat to bore tolerances.

And I believe that it is the power levels of cartridges, more than the guns themselves that makes a difference. Seems that 38 Spc and 44 Spc just have more flexibility especially in shorter barrels.

The more space in the case, the less flexibility for changing variables without a longer barrel. The best fillers are powder and bullet or things get finicky. Not a rule, but 50 years of observation. The GC widens my option and accuracy windows to help put "me" back in the game when I violate this history.

[Lloyd Smale]

sure to agree with you bigger isnt allways better idea. I hear people all the time tell guys that the biggest bullet that will chamber in your gun is the most accurate. Far from the truth. MY two 500 linebaughs are good examples. the tolerances are real tight in them and 511 bullets hands down outshoot 512 or 513. Same goes for most of my 44s. Ive had better luck with 430 in most of them then anything bigger.