Lee Tumble Lube Truncated Cone 9 mm

[jsnake]

I really want this mold/bullet to work. Free bullets that seem to pile up quickly from the mold and don't need sizing is appealing to me. However, I am having to load these very short (1.065) to get them to drop in the barrel. Furthermore, I am loading light due to the short COL. With 3.0 of WIN231, these things are keyholing (6 of 10). With 5.2 of AA5, no keyholing noticed. Others, far more experienced than me, said to increase the load (not to exceed 1100 fps).

What I am worried about is the short COL. BTW, these are cast with wheelweights and tumble lubed with alox/jpw. Any thoughts on where to go from here would be greatly appreciated.

Joe:|

[HammerMTB]

Most of the Lee TC boolits I have used are like this. The nose shape makes for a short COAL due to the shoulder of the full dia of the boolit being so far forward in the length of the boolit.
I guess my only advice would be to continue to increase the charge, watching for PSI signs as you go. The slower the powder, the better the launch, in general.

[frkelly74]

They worked ok for me in a Chinese tok copy once I got the length figured out so they would feed, but they are on the small side diameter wise. If they fit your bore properly then they will most likely work ok.

On rereading the OP it seems that the bullets do not fit the bore perhaps, hence the keyholes. Are you getting leading? Slug the bore, measure the slug and compare it with the boolit measurement as cast. The boolit must be larger than the slug but not so large so as to not chamber easily. Look up beageling and see what you think of that. It is a method of increasing the boolit diameter slightly.

[HeavyMetal]

Others have had a better experience than I with the Lee tumble lube concept.

As you mentioned the idea is awesome, on paper. In reality not so much as far as I'm concerened!

Having said that I would build a dummy round, as I do with all rounds I load for, and carefully seat the boolit in the case a "touch" at a time until the case rim was flush with the end of the chamber area.

In this senerio you are useing the boolit to establish head space but you get to maximize case volume under the specific boolit you are loading.

Once you have found what the barrel likes in OAL you now have to see if that will feed through the mag! Many 9's need a shorter OAL to feed from the mag so check both!

Now that you have an OAL that works you do the usual load work up. In this I can tell you the 9mm prefers medium burn rate pistol powders to fast ones.

Now all you have to do is keep the lube out of the seating die and continue on!

[jsnake]

I did follow the seat and try method you described. I had to go all the way down to 1.065". Also, no keyholing with AA#5. These feed well in my cz 85 combat. Both loads discussed were on the light side (brass no more than 2-3 ft. away). But to answer other questions, no the leading was minimal. A couple passes with a choreboy pad did the trick. I cant tell from my testing method which load was responsible for the leading or both. I will follow up and just work with AA #5 for now. I will also use a chrony so my records are more complete.

I agree with the seating die comment. Funny. A little one shot and I can go hundreds of rounds before seating depth starts to change. Just a thought.

Joe

[GabbyM]

That’s not actually short for a truncated cone bullet. Hornady book list a COL of 1.040” for there 124gr FMJ-TCFP. As HammerMTB stated it’s to hold the shoulder short of the throat. I can load .355” or .356” bullets in my S&W out long with the bullet setting in the throat but a .357” won’t go. What you run into a lot with a TC is the expander plugs in the die sets don’t expand the case deep enough for the deeper seating TC bullets. Ends up crushing your bullets down in the case. A Lyman M die will almost cure this. I’ve not tried it but you may have a 38 revolver die around you can use.

AA#5 is an excellent powder in 9mm.

[jsnake]

Thanks,
I will look into a Lyman M die. That makes sense.
Joe

[chris in va]

Been there, done that. Switched to a 358-125-RF sized to 358, lubed with JPW, no more issues.

[jsnake]

Chris in va,
did you slug your bore? If so, what was the diameter? What are you shooting these out of?
Joe (also in va).

[easyrider604]

Just checked into this thread as last night as my P89, shooting reloads with Lee TC TL 124 grain (resized to .356) heads over 4.5 grains Universal all keyholed (about 100 rds) and accuracy went south. I have been told that I am already maxed out with this powder charge.

Previously, this pistol a Ruger P89, was super accurate with commercial cast 124 grain RN. Tried the same loads in a buds SR9 and same result. BTW I could hardly print holes on paper a 15 meters:-x

Aside from resizing to .357 which would create a slight bulge on the brass (cosmetic only), are there any other suggestions? Thanks

[MT Gianni]

That was the first mold that I cast with. It was also the first mold I sold a few years later when I bought a lube-sizer. In fact, it may be the reason I bought a lubesizer. I wish you a better experience but don't have a lot of hope.

[Boolseye]

Hey,
I've been on the same path with those boolits. so far I've had the best luck with AA#7 (though I just bought some #5–good to know it works too) They do seem to like the medium–slow burning powders, though I had a bunch of keyholes with blue dot. 700x was keyhole city too. Some of the keyholes are actually pretty accurate lol. agree, the boolits are a great concept but a bit finicky. I'll tell ya though, those tl158swc for my .38 don't lead or keyhole at all. much more forgiving than the 9mm. I may harden the alloy up a bit for the 9s next time.

[jsnake]

I have other tumble lube molds, 401 175 TC and 452 200 SWC and work marvelously. I chose the 9 mm mold based on my experience with the 40 mold because it worked so well. But, the 9 mm mold and subsequent boolits behave much differently than the 40s.
Joe

[Boolseye]

are there any other suggestions? Thanks
try AA #5 or #7. Don't size them. Barely crimp them or not at all.

[Recluse]

That was the first mold that I cast with. It was also the first mold I sold a few years later when I bought a lube-sizer. In fact, it may be the reason I bought a lubesizer. I wish you a better experience but don't have a lot of hope.

Ditto as far as this wasn't the first mold I ever cast with, but it was the first mold I tried for 9mm.

It was also the first ever mold I simply threw in the garbage because I became so thoroughly disgusted and discouraged over the consistently poor results.

In fact, I'm about an inch away from tossing all of my .356 molds--and if it weren't for the fact that we have a couple of .380s laying around, they'd already be in the garbage.

I've given up on lead and 9mm, no matter how I cast it, size it, lube it or load it, me, lead, reloading and shooting in 9mm has just been one dismal failure after another. And this is in every single 9mm in the safe, not just any one particular gun. [smilie=b:

:coffee:

[GabbyM]

Recluse:
Have you used a Lyman M die with 9mm?
I’ve a tight bore S&W. With a large bore you'd need an expander at bore diameter. then size bullets over that to get neck tension. fact is 9mm cases are thick and will size down bullets. Lee TL with the thin bands will for sure swag down and that’s why I speculate people have so much problem with the design. I only have two 9mm pistols so it’s not like I’ve done any scientific test. I have taken a kenetic bullet puller to knock out a seated 9mm boolit. All the boolits had taken on the form of the case they had been seated in.
They had been leading up my barrels. Bought a Lyman M die to better expand the cases and it worked. That said I’ve four expander plugs in different 9mm , 380 acp die sets. There is a .003” difference in plug diameters. Given that it’s easy to see why some people have no issue with 9mm when others do. The die sets seam to be made to work with 124 grain ball profile round nose. Which have a very shallow seat depth. I’m starting to think a RN ball profile is the best 9mm bullet. Just to make life easy.

[jsnake]

UPDATE

I have water dropped a batch of these 356 124 tc bullets (straight wheelweights) and have no keyholing at all and good (enough) accuracy. However, I am getting a fair amount of leading. I don't want to give up. I may try an M die and see if that makes a difference. I am on the 19th set of load variables. Keep the comments coming. I will try more this weekend. I would love to hear from someone that did not give up on this mold and I can't be the only one hardheaded enough to keep trying. Joe

[MtGun44]

Keyholing is most often due to undersized boolit. Whether it is originally
cast undersized, or resized undersized or undersized by seating the brass,
or by an excessive crimp, is not known. Are you by any chance using a Lee
Factory Crimp die? These have been known to resize the boolit inside the
case, causing undersized boolits. Have you slugged your barrel?

As to LOA, my version of the 356-120-TC is seated well out, with a bit of the full
diameter portion outside the case, and a light taper crimp. Two things control
the cartridge freely dropping into the chamber - boolit shoulder hitting the
rifling and not enough TC. Make sure your issue isn't inadequate TC, if it is
actually the boolit seated too far out, you should see clear rifling marks on
the boolit when you press the 'too long' cartridge into the chamber and then
examine it. Lots of possibilities, the TL designs can be unforgiving in this
caliber, especially. With 9mm, typically larger diam is better.

I use air cooled wheel wts with the Lee conventional lube groove 356-120-TC
sized to .357 or .358 in all my 9mms (Sig, Browning, KelTech, Beretta, etc)
with excellent results and zero leading at max 9mm std velocity.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=2344


Actually one of my better groups. Most are more like 2.5" or so, depending on the pistol
I actually had to back this down to 6.5gr, was too hot for the Keltech PF-9 which
apparently has a very tight chamber. Primers were extruding into the pin hole
a bit.

Many folks have had difficulties with the 9mm with boolits, and especially with the
TL designs. Many have had TL's work for them, too. IMO, the TL is a marginal lube
system, but it definitely CAN work, but it also definitely can cause a lot of problems.
Cast absolutely CAN be made to work in the 9mm. I think the std Lee 120-TC is a
great design.

Make sure you have enough diameter to start with, based on your barrel groove diameter,
measured by slugging and using a micrometer, not a caliper which is not accurate enough
for this job. Then make sure that you are not losing any of your diameter along the
way, resizing or a Lee Factory Crimp die, which sometimes can size down the whole round
and resize the boolit inside the case.

Best shot is to do exactly what I am doing, but you will have a lot of trouble finding
the powder, so don't bother. I am just using it because I got a bunch cheap and it is
only useable for 9mm (how weird it that?, but true).

If you can't make the TL work, PM me and I'll send you a handfull of my boolits to try
out and see if they work for you. I am far from home now, so cannot give you my LOA
for my 9mms, or I would. It is pretty normal, like a factory round minus the rounded
tip part.

Bill

[CiDirkona]

I also got a very short COAL using Lee TCs, but mainly due to the shape as well. Due to the length difference between Dardas 125s, Lee 125-2R and Lee 120-TC's, my OAL at the same internal volume and velocity were 1.125, 1.095 and 1.085. The TC boolits are a good .040 shorter than the Dardas.

That being said, I got alot of keyholing (and leading as a bonus feature) as well when attempting a million different version of tumble lube. Switched to classic lube groove stuff (Carnuba Red FTW) and have been working great since with the exact same molds.

[fecmech]

The correct OAL for that bullet is about 1.050-1.065 and so far in this thread I've seen no mention of the groove size in your barrel. As Mtgun44 said load just a bit of the bullet bearing surface out of the case. The bad thing about that TL bullet is it drops around .356, so unless you are about .355 in your groove size you've got trouble. If you find that your barrel is .356 or bigger I would "Beagle" that TL mold and that should help. BTW 3.0/231 is way light for the 9MM. I think you will be better off with AA5, Blue Dot, Longshot and powders in that burn range with lead.

[lead-1]

MtGun44, is your 358-124TC mold beagled or is it an older mold that I don't see listed on the LEE site.

[MtGun44]

My mistake, I will go back and edit it! The proper number is 356-120-TC.
Not beagled. I started with a 2 cav and liked it so much I moved up to
a 6 cav, great design, IME. It ends up about 122-124 gr actual weight for
me, so that is why I was confused. I write the actual boolit wt on the
ammo box - maybe need to stop doing that because it confuses me
as to the designation on the Lee designs.

Here is Lee's pic.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=3407

Bill

[Doby45]

I have that mold also, it is a good'un..

[jsnake]

The boolit diameters are .356 and no I have not slugged the barrel nor do I have a micrometer. I will have a friend size some conventionally lubed boolits to .357 and give it a try.

[Doby45]

Without taking the time to slug your barrel and know what size it is you are simply throwing darts in the dark. My 9mm slugs at just over .357, I size my boolits to .358 and have no problems. I know a LOT of guys that use .358 in their 9mms. Strange huh?

[MtGun44]

throwing darts can work, esp if you don't (yet) have the equipment for a more
sophisticated approach. Try .357 and then .358 and see what works.

Mr. Target will tell how you are doing.

Bill

[GabbyM]

throwing darts can work, esp if you don't (yet) have the equipment for a more
sophisticated approach. Try .357 and then .358 and see what works.

Mr. Target will tell how you are doing.

Bill

Or size a bullet. Remove the pistol barrel then drop one in the chamber and see if it fits down the throat all the way to the rifling.

What I can’t decide it whether to size them larger than the throat or just small enough to still seat out into the throat to the rifling.

They may fit down the throat as cast size.

[CiDirkona]

I miss having the boat tail for ease of loading. The flat base means that with minimal flare/bell, i have to uber precise on my bullet placement while loading for it to not shave lead off... I'll probably go back to using this mold pretty soon...

[Boolseye]

jsnake,
I've kept goin' with that mold and have found reasonable success with 'em.
At this point, I water drop the boolits–my alloy is range lead hardened up a bit with superhard and sweetened with a little tin. BHN 12-15. I don't size them. I seat them in a well-expanded case, taking care not to case-swage them. I load them over 4.5 gr. #5 or 6.5 gr. #7–just enough to cycle the action of my p226. I do use my factory crimp, since the sizing ring is barely touching the rounds–no case swaging. I'm essentially just using the taper crimp aspect of the die (a very light crimp). I won't say no leading, but it's not enough for me to worry about, and it's a really mild-shooting target load. The boolit shot fine over 7.4 gr. #7, too. A bit more leading, but they were accurate. I've also started seating them a bit shallower–around 1.100, with a couple micro-grooves showing. Obturation is worth considering–this would explain why a stout charge under a relatively soft boolit could be a good bet (the higher pressure causes the base to expand and seal the bore). However, I believe for this boolit relatively low velocities may be the way to go.
keep the faith–it's a good lil' boolit.

Mt. Gun–thanks for the excellent post on the 356-120 TC. I probably would have gone for that boolit over this one, and may yet get the mold.

[MtGun44]

You are welcome. It has been a very good design for me. I have had very mixed
results with Lee designs. Some have been terrific and some have been very disappointing.
I try to pass the word on the terrific ones like 356-102-TC and the wonderful 358-158 RF
for revolvers.

Bill

[Shuz]

MtGun44--

Bill, have you tried your Lee truncated cone 124g boolit in a .380ACP?
I recently bought a .380 Bodyguard Smith, and it shoots the Lee .356-102-RN real well, but Lee does not offer that design in a 6 cavity.

Ray

[fecmech]

The Lee 120 TC is a very accurate bullet and I've used it in all my .35 cals. In the 9MM it would group under 2"@25 yds out of a couple service grade guns. In my K-38 @1000 fps it does less than 2"@ 50 yds and just about the same out of my Ruger GP 100. Out of 3 lever guns (2 Rossi's and a 94 Win) it will hold 3 MOA@100 yds and 3-4MOA@200 yds. The RCBS version is just a hair more accurate but not enough to make up for the 2 cavity vs 6 cav advantage of the Lee IMO.

PS Shuz--If you want some to try PM me with your address.

[MtGun44]

I did fire a very few of the 105 Lee .38 cal SWC boolits in my .380. I had good results and
need to go back again. That design is the first mold I ever bought and I started with it in 9mm
and it was really accurate and NEVER jammed once with any load. I first bought it in 1976
and it is interesting that it is still cataloged.

I will definitely get back to it for .380 and you should know that it is excellent in 9mm, too.

FECmech, I have not tried the 120 TC Lee in .38 cal guns yet, I have had such excellent
results with the Lee 358-158 RF (LBT style with BB) that I am kinda hot on it for .38 Spl and
.357 Mag, of course the Lyman 358477 (got a new to me 4 cav mold) and RCBS 38-150-SWC (old
designation was 38-150-K) are also so good that I suffer from an embarrassment of riches
in the .35 caliber guns. Don't pass up the wonderful Lyman 358429 Keith or its HP version, either, if you
are going heavy for pistols.

Bill

[fecmech]

The Lyman 358429 4 cav was the first mold I ever owned and I bought that around 1970 and I've shot a ton of them over the years. That bullet over 15/820, 10/Blue Dot, or 13.5/2400 is my "Magnum" load.
I kind of "backed in" to the Lee 120 Tc as a .38 bullet because of my Rossi rifles and their 30" twists. I like to plink with .38's and that slow twist shows up bad at 100 yds with the std wt bullets at lower velocities, especially the lee 158 rnfp and also my old standby H&G 158 RN. I tried the Lee 120 and it shot like a house on fire and what really amazed me was how good it was all the way to 200 yds. That lead to trying it in the pistols and that is why I'm so pleased with it. I don't hunt or compete anymore but I do like accurate handguns and rifles. That bullet gives me a light recoiling, fairly flat shooting .38 target/plinking bullet. I am going to wring it out this spring to see if I want to use it to replace my H&G 39 RN for the first 3 stages of Hunters pistol and just use the RN for the rams.
I tried to love the 3584277, I bought a mold to try in the rifles and I ran a couple hundred through the handguns but for me it was pretty much a 3" 50 yd load. My Lee 158 SWC TL averages about 2"@ 50 yds and requires no sizing or additional handling so that's what I use when I want a .38 SWC. I'm glad it works for you. If you get bored and want to try something new, load your 120TC over 4-4.5 grs of BE or 5.0-5.5/231. Kind of like a 32-20.

[Boolseye]

I love that little 356-102 1R. Shoots great out of my pk380, sized down to .356. I load it in the 9mm too, unsized. I s'pose I could run it through my .358 sizer die. I tried it in my .38 but it was pretty inaccurate. I don't think it was stabilizing.

[easyrider604]

I resized my boolits to .358 and .357 (cast from Lee 9mm 125 grain TC 6-cavity), loaded over 4.2 grains Universal Clays. Still Keyholed.

Loaded 3.9 grains Uni, still keyholing. At 3.6 grains Uni....voila...zero keyholes, super accurate to 15 meters, reliable ejection at least 6 ft behind me. Haven't chrono'd so dont know velocity.