Deteriorating powder question

[Typecaster]

I just noticed that a can of 4198 that I got from my dad has gone bad. I gave it the sniff test (no solvent smell, no smell at all) then poured some into the B&M and proceeded to load 25 45-70 rounds. When I poured some into the trickler, I got the rust-colored dust. It's easy enough to pull the boolets as I wasn't crimping the cases, so no problem there.

I don't know exactly how old the powder is, but the TG&Y price label is a little over $8. I'm assuming it's from the early '70s when he retired, and I don't know about storage—it could have been stored at their winter compound in Quartzsite or at the house in Prescott. It was in the reloading stuff he turned over to me a few years ago.

My only question is about the dust—I'm assuming it's from the can (which is rusted at the level of the powder). With current powders in HDPE containers, there won't be any rust dust when they go bad, right? Will the "sniff test" be our only indicator in the future?

Just curious.

Richard

[Jim]

If it was me, I'd chuck it. But that's just my worthless opinion.

[zomby woof]

It's not rust. It seems when IMR powders start to deteriorate they leach this red dust. I'm guessing it's a chemical that only happens to IMR powder.

I bought a bunch of old powder recently. It had IMR, hercules, Alliant etc... All was stored the same in a garage that was subjected to varying temperatures. Only the IMR powder had this red dust, so It's only my opinion that the red dust is leaching from their powder.

I continue to use all these powders with no ill effects. I save them for my cast loads. I use fresh powder for precision loads.

[felix]

Rust is from nitrogen component deterioration, and occurs with all conventional gun powders. Storage starts with the manufacturer and ends with the consumer. This means the only powder in the self destruction stage has had a harder life somewhere back down the line. ... felix

[Rocky Raab]

Zomby is correct. Single-base powders are subject to acid decomposition, which produces that red dust. Get rid of that powder NOW. Exposing it to oxygen by opening and pouring it can increase the speed of decomposition to the point where it might even self-ignite.

[wiljen]

stuff makes good fertilizer - give it to SWMBO for the roses.

[sav300]

Or throw it on a neighbors lawn for it is good for the grass.[smilie=l:

[jmh54738]

While I believe all that has been said, I did have one can that exhibited this condition. The can was rusted inside. Not knowing any better, I just fanned the "rust" out of it and put it in a glass container. I watched it for over 2 years, in which time there was no change and no red dust formation. Thus, I assumed the red dust was rust from the can, caused by an acid out-gassing of the powder. I just loaded it up and shot it.
Calcium carbonate is added to powder to neutrilize residual acids. Too much Calcium Carbonate was the cause of plugged gas tubes of M16s during early Viet Nan, when stick powder was used in place of the standard ball powder. The use of the anti-acid was then reduced about 66%. I am only repeating that which I have read. I have no personal knowledge of this. Now, in some World War I era '06 shells I have seen the primer corode and the powder turn tar-like. I am always ready to learn new things. I may have it backwards...did ball powder replace the stick??
John

[fatelk]

I have had dusty powder like that before, and can only agree with the others (who likely know more about it than I do) that it is the first stages of deterioration. I hate to throw powder away and in the past have chosen denial and continued to use it anyway.

I've seen it in 4064, 4831, and 4895. A couple times I tried to work up a load with it, and noticed reduced velocity and apparently reduced pressure. I might try it in cast or reduced loads, but more likely just toss it. As frugal as I am, I don't think it's worth messing with anymore.

I'm kicking myself right now. I went to a gun show today and passed up an unopened 8lb can of 4198 for $85. He said it had been sitting around for several years, but I'm more wary of second-hand powder than I used to be. The seller was an acquaintance (good guy), and as I walked around the show I decided I should buy it. When I walked back it was gone. Oh, well. He who hesitates...

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Now, in some World War I era '06 shells I have seen the primer corode and the powder turn tar-like.

I've noticed that in some WWII era 8mm mauser surplus stuff I bought years ago.
I assumed it was water/humidity damage. Maybe it's just aging with varation in temp.
Jon

[870TC]

I've never seen powder turn red by itself, I have seen the inside of the can rust and then have this "rust dust" get on the powder. You can pour the powder out, on to a sheet in front of an electric fan and most of the "rust dust" will be carried away. I have continued to use the powder, but not for hunting or serious target work, seems fine to me. I'm shooting up some IMR 3031 right now that was rust dusted.
So, for my opinion on the original question: with the new plastic cans there will be no rust dust and therefore the sniff test will be what is left....unless the plastic degrades and turns the powder some new color.

[zomby woof]

I've never seen powder turn red by itself, I have seen the inside of the can rust and then have this "rust dust" get on the powder. You can pour the powder out, on to a sheet in front of an electric fan and most of the "rust dust" will be carried away. I have continued to use the powder, but not for hunting or serious target work, seems fine to me. I'm shooting up some IMR 3031 right now that was rust dusted.
So, for my opinion on the original question: with the new plastic cans there will be no rust dust and therefore the sniff test will be what is left....unless the plastic degrades and turns the powder some new color.

The red dust doesn't stick to a magnet. If it was truly rust, wouldn't it?

[jmh54738]

An internet search just told me that red rust is NOT magnetic

[Shiloh]

I've seen the red rust from deterioration powders. I poured them on the curb and ignited it. It burned as if there was nothing wrong with it.

Shiloh