KRAG - what do I have?

[wallacem]

I have had this for several years, and it is just sitting in the safe. It is carbine length, and very clean and tight. I shot it when I bought it and it did shoot very good. Thinking about selling it, but don't know where to start on price. Any ideas/interests? Also have a M-1 30 carbine, Underwood, that I bought from a good friend, his father bought it from NRA back in 1962. It is very nice also, don't think I have even shot it since I bought it. What do you think prices would be/ Any help will be appreciated. Wallacem in Georgia .

Latest news, I measured the bbl, it is exactly 22". Wallace

[wiljen]

It appears that you have a model 1898 rifle that was later put in an 1899 carbine stock. The Serial places it in the 1899 production range but the position of the rear sight appears to be too far removed from the barrel band to be a production 1898 carbine and an 1898 carbine should have the saddle ring as well. An 1899 stock would have omitted the saddle ring and appears to be what you have. Can you take close up photos of the sights as original carbines should have a C stamped on the rear sight base.

[wiljen]

Another couple tests - with the bolt closed, run a cleaning rod down the bore to the bolt face and mark the rod when fully inserted. then measure the rod. A carbine barrel should be exactly 22" from Muzzle to bolt face.

Check the nose of the stock for an insert piece. If it is a cut down rifle stock, it will have an insert from the lightening channel.

I suspect the stock wont have the insert, but the barrel may prove to be a cut down rifle rather than an original carbine as very few original 1898 carbines were made.

[Bret4207]

A real nice rifle.

I suppose there's also a Star Gauged '03 National Match sitting unused in your closet too?

[Bob S]

The stock is not original Krag rifle or carbine: it is a reproduction.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[oldhickory]

The stock is not original Krag rifle or carbine: it is a reproduction.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

You're absolutly correct, Bob. It's a new made stock, the cartouche block is hand "carved" on this one although the initials and date appear to be stamped, (yes, they make re-pop cartouche stamps). The wood is new and shows hand fitting, well done, but it's not Springfield and shows no signs of age or use.

I looked up the sr# in Springfield Research and didn't find this particular number, but several within a few didgets, all listed as 1898 Rifles made in 1899 and issued to state "Volunteer" units, (NG). Sr. No. 125662-Co. D 8th. Mass. Vol Inf. Sr. No. 125667-Co. D. 3rd. Ky. Vol. Inf.

It's a nice gun, and well fitted, but not what it appears to be on the surface.

[EMC45]

A real nice rifle.

I suppose there's also a Star Gauged '03 National Match sitting unused in your closet too?

There's no telling with Wallace! He always surprises me with neat old guns when we eventually get around to getting together. I have seen this Krag and despite the stock being aftermarket it is a fine rifle!

[Char-Gar]

I am not ready to brand that stock as a reproduction. It does look like the cartouche has been "freshened" by somebody. Probably at a time when the stock was refinished. It may have been reblued as well.

The front barrel band is a carbine band. I can't see the rear sight and other features to be certain.

Without a hands on look, I would not hesitate to venture a guess on value.

[Bob S]

I am not ready to brand that stock as a reproduction.

The grasping grooves were cut with a mill that is much too small; the wood around the side plate and cut-off are way too proud, necessitatiing that sharp mortice for the cut-off. That's not a Springfield Armory product. (the band spring looks like a stamped 03A3 part.) It's very nicely done, but it's not "origninal". I would like to see a picture of the full length; looks like it could be very good shooter.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[leadman]

I was reading an old American Rifleman from the era this rifle was purchased and it told of Krags that were converted by the NRA (I think) to a configuration called an "NRA Carbine".
I'll have to look for that old issue as my memory, along with most of the rest of me is failing.
The grasping grooves do look smaller than on my Krag.
Anytime that I see an old rifle surface like this it is good as I think these have character and history that the new military rifles lack.
So when are you posting the first target with this?

[Multigunner]

There are enough limited production variants that I would always suggest further research before assuming a rifle or carbine is not as it should be.

The various School Rifles and Constabulary carbines that have recently surfaced are a case in point. These were long confused with the Board of Fortifications shortened infantry rifle, which itself appears to have been so rare that few would recognize one it they held it in their hands.

Still I suspect the pictured rifle may be a motion picture hero prop rifle, which in itself would be quite a find.
When obsolete rifles were needed for a historical drama, such as the film about the charge up San Juan Hill, battered beaters were okay for extras in the back ground but often rifles refurbished to appear to be newly issued would be carried by the main players for close up shots.

I'd check the rifle/carbine very closely for a studio or prop warehouse ownership stamping or paper label.
Several prop gun businesses have sold off rifles in recent years, insurance and fire marshall clearances have made dummy weapons and CGI muzzle blast effects the easiest way to go.

PS
The CMP did sell off hundreds of Krag rifles and Carbines they received from Motion Picture Studio warehouses some years back.
Most were very corroded by blank firing, but a member of another board found a studio marked rifle in excellent condition at an estate sale.
A very few that escaped the abuses that props normally receive may have made it through.

[oldhickory]

It's not an NRA carbine as sold through DCM in the 20's-30's. Those "carbines" were cut down rifles fitted to original carbine stocks, hand guards, and rear sights with a well fitted 1903 front sight, (I know, the pictures don't show the front sight).

I also doubt if it's a Bannerman or Kirk altered rifle. To begin with, it's in much too good of shape, secondly, most of theirs were hybrids combining '03 altered stocks to a cut down Krag receiver/barrel assy.

Hollywood prop?..Maybe, I don't know enough about those to make a call. I think it was found as a "sporterized" Krag and a new re-pop stock added, but that's just my opinion.

What-ever, I would like to see a pic of the front sight on this Krag.

[wallacem]

Hey guys, there are a lot of different ideas. I will get it out and take some pictures of the sights and better pics of the gun and post. Keep watch, Wallacem in Ga.

[Multigunner]

The School rifle and Constabulary short rifles used Carbine barrels modified to take the standard rifle bayonet.
The Carbine barrel muzzle was slightly larger in OD than the Rifle muzzle so the altered Carbine muzzle had a shoulder turned into it just in front of the front sight base. This is sometimes mistaken for signs of a banded front base being fitted to a shortened rifle barrel.

The Military School short rifles use a shortened rifle stock with front band and bayonet lug set back to allow mounting a bayonet. Very nice little rifles and very handy. These were made by an Arsenal in California.

A School rifle barreled action fitted with a carbine stock , or its original stock shortened by cutting away the fore part and bayonet mounting, could easily be mistaken for a shortened or sporterized rifle.

Rifles used as drill or parade rifles often show up with bayonet lug removed and fore end cut back to prevent installing a bayonet lug.
This was also common for long Lee Enfield rifles sold out of service to rifle clubs. A sort of early version of an assault rifle ban, bayonet lugs being considered a defining feature of a rifle suited for making war compared to a civilian rifle.

[wallacem]

Here are some more shots you asked for. Wallace

[missionary5155]

Greetings
About the awful shooting aspect.. you might want to slug the throat. I have an 1898 that will take a .314 and shoots that well.

[wiljen]

Interesting mix of parts. I'm not an expert by any means so other please chime in.

What i see is an 1898 Action
an 1896 rear sight
an 1899 Carbine Stock (or reproduction thereof)
no C marked on either sight
the handguard appears to be of the 1901 pattern

I think its a well made sporter or repro carbine if I had to wager.

[Multigunner]

Shouldn't this have a saddle ring?

[wiljen]

Shouldn't this have a saddle ring?

Most but not all 1898 carbines did have the saddle ring. The 1899 did not typically have one.

[oldhickory]

Interesting mix of parts. I'm not an expert by any means so other please chime in.

What i see is an 1898 Action
an 1896 rear sight
an 1899 Carbine Stock (or reproduction thereof)
no C marked on either sight
the handguard appears to be of the 1901 pattern

I think its a well made sporter or repro carbine if I had to wager.

I agree, it's a very nicely done sporter/"carbine" made from a re-pop stock and original Krag parts. Like Mike said, slug the bore and get her shooti'n! It should make a nice handy walki'n around rifle.

[wallacem]

Latest info, I measured the bbl at 22". Now that we all know that no one seems to know what I have, what would you think it is worth to sell? I bought it with all good intentions of shooting it, but have only taken it out one time. It does very well, grouping 10 shots inside4" at 100. That is the best I can see. Wallacem in Ga

[wiljen]

Ok, with that last statement, you did solidify my thinking. It IS a cutdown rifle as the carbine would be a 20" barrel not a 22". To be a 22 means it started out longer and was cut back to that length. In as such you have a good looking sporter Krag and that probably puts it in the 400-600 range as a shooter for somebody interested in one.

[oldhickory]

I agree with wiljen's price estimate, I see some really nasty cut down Krags in the $350-$400 range, and some nicely done ones upward of $500. This one is very nicely done and I would expect it would fetch $450-$600 with a nice bore.

I have to disagree about the barrel length though, it should be 22" for a carbine. A true 1899 carbine would have "MODEL 1899" stamped on the receiver.

[4570guy]

Carbines had 22" barrels.

[4570guy]

The stock cartouche was definitely not done at Springfield. I agree that this is an after-market stock.

Your pictures do not show details of the rear and front sights. Look at the rear sight from the top view. Does it have a "C" stamp? What is the max yardage marking? Also, the front sight should have a C but it may not be visible.

See carbine details here:
http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/

[wiljen]

an 1898 carbine should have a 20" barrel from boltface to muzzle as measured from the inside of the barrel with a cleaning rod. That was the dimension I asked him to check so 22" is incorrect for a 1898.

[tdoor4570]

If you get tired of this rifle, send it to me i"ll give it a good home.

[Bob S]

All US Krag carbines had 22" barrels. There were no exceptions.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[wallacem]

I have not pulled it out to check for the "C" on the rear sight, but I do already know the sight only goes up to 18. I have already looked and there is not a "C" on the front sight. Wallace