300 blackout

[Wayne S]

I've "herd" conflicting data on this case, from "it's just a "whisper" case to it's a full length .223 case necked to 30 Cal. ????
IS thare anywhere a spec-ed drawing of this case can be seen ??

[82nd airborne]

I have a reamer drawing.
It is a whisper with more throat, and a looser neck.

[rockrat]

If you google 300 blackout drawings, there is a link to "silencertalk" that has what you want.
http://www.silencertests.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=128&t=65932

[Wayne S]

Neck is a "little" longer on the whisper,["it's a good thing"] everything else looks like a "curly" or two larger on the BLACKOUT

Thanks, that answers ," that"

[rockrat]

Yup, about a whole 14 Thousandths longer on the "Whisper"

[82nd airborne]

Also, you can fire .300 whisper and .300/.221 in a .300 Blackout chamber.

[MakeMineA10mm]

For those of you who have a 300 Blackout or 300 Whisper, what are you doing for magazines?

I can only get 8-12 rounds in my magazines, before they bind from the wider bullets hitting the deep front stiffening ridge in the standard military aluminum mags. I know JD Jones just took a reamer and reamed away the stiffener, but I don't like open slots down my magazine...

I've read that P-mags have an internal ridge stiffener, and that this can be taken down from the inside. Anyone tried that?

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/magpul_maglevel_pmag.jpg

[redneckdan]

Thermold magazines have a little plastic ridge instead of the round rib. Pop the base plate off and remove the ridge with a bastard file. Works like a charm.

[Artful]

I'm just using my old colt 20 round straight mags - doesn't seem to be an issue with them. I have one of the new quick load 30 round mags
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JnyIpgpJ8s
and it doesn't seem to be bothered either.
but some of the other 30 round AR mag's have the same issue yours does.
You can adjust your bullet seating depth to change the part of the bullet bearing on the rib as well.

AAC/Remington put out some suggestions for their seating of varous bullets - check bottom of the page
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=102895&page=5

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks guys.

I've got about twenty-five aluminum 20-rders, and they're all older (from 1970s or 60s), and some of them do work better than others, but none of them work 100% like you guys are getting lucky with... I also like to reserve these for my range/varmint-hunting mags with my ARs, because they're easier to use off sandbags/bipod.

I bought a couple cases of the Brownell's 30-rd mags, and I already had over 50 of the GI surplus 30-rd aluminum mags. None of them "interface" well with the 300 Whisper ammo.

Art, I saw the blurb from Remington declaring that the 300 AAC Blackout works in standard mags, but already knew from my 300 Whisper experience that this wasn't likely. Well, saw that page explaining modifying the seating depth, and now I get it. Trouble is, I don't like it. I don't believe in modifying seating depth and such to get the thing to work right. I look at it that the gun system should be set up to work right with any/all SAAMI correct ammo... Also, it becomes a hassle to change the seater adjustment and then you have the load variation due to seating depth changes, all of which I just don't want to deal with... I did find that loading the 147gr FMJs (which have a much shorter ogive) does get the ammo to clear the guide ribs.

What I'd really like to do is get some magazines that I can easily identify are different than my standard magazines, and dedicate those to 300 whisper. Since my 20-rd Alum. are range/varmint-hunting dedicated, my 30-rd Alum. are dedicated 223 mags for everything else, and my black-stainless mags are for the 6.8SPC, I'd like to get some P-Mags (probably the 20-rd version) and dedicate those to my 300. The secondary advantage is that the plastic guide rib is easy to modify myself, and doing so doesn't require cutting a slot in the outer wall so no worries about dirt getting in them...

Just wondering if anyone has done this modification on the P-mags. Thanks RedNeckDan, for your input on the Thermolds. I might have one of those laying around that I got in a trade. Will have to try to dig it up and look it over. Since I got it for next to free, I could test this idea out on that one... I really want to use P-mags, if possible though, due to their high-quality reputation. I guess they're not that expensive, and I could just get a couple and try it out myself. Thought someone would have traveled this road before though.

82d Airborne, you got any input??

[82nd airborne]

I use PMags almost exclusively, and in about 3 minutes I file the forward ribs down with a rasp, which allows me to load to the full length of the mag. With jacketed bullets you can seat them deep enough to where they bullets wont interfere with the ribs, but you loose case capicity. I just take the ribs down, because they still work with 5.56, which I dont use much. Since I leave the mags loaded anyways, I dont mind having separate mags either.

[82nd airborne]

Factory BLK ammo is actually loaded short enough that it will feed in a standard
GI mag, but why buy when you can make your own?

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thank you so much for the experience/validation of my idea!!

Yeah, my biggest problem with the 300 AAC BlackOut is the thicker neck. You see, I'm already set up for the Whisper (dies, 221 brass, etc.), and to change over to the thicker-neck brass I'd have to change out the dies and brass at least. Not horrible price-wise, but I'd take the hit of re-selling the stuff I've got at a discount and buying the new stuff full-price... I suppose I could have the neck on my current dies opened up just a touch, and then it'd just be the brass and ammo I'd have to sell.

What are you doing for a gas system 82d? Do you have adjustable to use completely off, suppressed, and completely "on" for regular loads? I really like the LWRC design that has four settings, but it would have to be modified for the 300. (Theirs is for a suppressed 6.8SPC, IIRC.)

[Artful]

Actually the neck tension is usually controlled by the expander ball - just change to a larger or smaller expander ball with your existing brass.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Yeah, it's not so much the neck tension I'm worried about as over-working the brass itself, thereby wearing it out and developing cracks prematurely. If I get the neck opened up a few thousandths, the new brass will not be worked so much. I'm going to have to ditch the 221 FB brass I've got cause the neck is so thin on it, if I were to fire it in the 300Blk chamber, it would be worked so much in the resizing process I'm sure it wouldn't last more than a few reloadings, unless I made annealing a part of the process every reload...

[Artful]

You might just check how much your brass is being worked in your other dies - I had to get a Lee Neck sizer for my 308 reduced capacity cases as all the other dies worked it way more than I wanted. - take your expander ball out and run some up and out and measure how much it reduced it.

[MakeMineA10mm]

True, but the real dilemma I'm facing is that, from everything I understand, the 300 AAC chamber has a larger dimension for the neck in the chamber of the gun, whereas, my reloading dies are for the thinner dimension of the 300 Whisper. It's not the relationship between the sizer die and neck expander, it's the dimensional differences between the chamber and the dies. Even with a smaller neck expander (so the dies don't work the brass so much), I'd have the chamber of the rifle being bigger, allowing the brass to expand too much...

I wonder if 82d has a 30/221 chamber reamer in addition to the 300 AAC one? On the other hand, with factory brass, etc., being available, if I can get that neck reamed out on the sizer die, I'd only have to change out a couple hundred rounds of brass... It may not be as bad as I was thinking... I'll have to double-check, but I think I never converted a couple hundred pieces of 221 brass, so I could just re-sell that to someone with a Fireball... Need some head-scratching time to decide. Luckily, I have plenty of that. :idea:

[Artful]

300 BLK
Parent case 221 Fireball/.223 Rem
Case type Rimless, Bottleneck
Bullet diameter 0.308 in (7.8 mm)
Neck diameter 0.334 in (8.5 mm)
Case length 1.368 in (34.7 mm)
Overall length 2.26 max SAAMI
Rifling twist 1:8
Primer type Small rifle

300 Whisper
Parent case .221 Fireball/.223 Rem
Case type Rimless, Bottleneck
Bullet diameter 0.308 in (7.8 mm)
Neck diameter 0.33 in (8.4 mm) Shoulder diameter 0.369 in (9.4 mm)
Base diameter 0.375 in (9.5 mm)
Rim diameter 0.375 in (9.5 mm)
Rim thickness 0.041 in (1.0 mm)
Case length 1.35 in (34 mm)
Overall length 2.1 in (53 mm)
Rifling twist 1/8
Primer type Small rifle

MMA10 - I really think you getting worked up too much about this, I have some rifles like my 303 and get 8-10 reloads and it expands way more than it should but just have to anneal when it starts to show neck cracking llike 5-6 reloads.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well, Thank you Art! I hadn't found any dimensions on the 300 AAC and was basing my worries only on what I had been told - basically that the 300 AAC had a thicker neck. I jumped to the conclusion it was very much larger so that cases converted from 223 brass would not need reaming/turning, and figured my 221 brass, which gets pretty thin when expanded would be stretched too far.

Now that you've shown the real numbers I think I agree with you!! Thanks very much! :drinks:

[82nd airborne]

I had a bunch of fireball ammo loaded up and have shot it and re shot it in the BLK with no issues yet.

[scb]

I had a bunch of fireball ammo loaded up and have shot it and re shot it in the BLK with no issues yet.

OK but would you dare shoot BLK ammo in a tight necked 300 Whisper? There are essentially no cut down 223 cases I can fire in my Whisper without either neck reaming or neck turning the cases.

[HotGuns]

OK but would you dare shoot BLK ammo in a tight necked 300 Whisper?

I have. No issues what so ever.

[MakeMineA10mm]

OK but would you dare shoot BLK ammo in a tight necked 300 Whisper? There are essentially no cut down 223 cases I can fire in my Whisper without either neck reaming or neck turning the cases.

Since there are many versions of the predecessor (300 Whisper, 30/221, etc.), I'd say it would depend on who reamed your chamber and with what reamer. If it's a real Whisper, then it's an SSK, and there is for-sure consistency there as far as what dimensions JDJ accepted/approved. Other manufacturers used whatever the reamer manufacturer sent them, unless they had a real particular idea about what they wanted.

With only .003" difference, I'm not so worried now about going looser by using re-formed Fireball cases in the AAC Blackout chamber. But, of course, you're going the OTHER way, and considering shooting thicker brass in a tighter chamber, which brings up your concerns, and rightfully so.

Only way to tell for sure, is to do a chamber cast or maybe try a few rounds and see what you get. What do your fired 300s measure before re-sizing?

[Wayne S]

300 BLK
Parent case 221 Fireball/.223 Rem
Case type Rimless, Bottleneck
Bullet diameter 0.308 in (7.8 mm)
Neck diameter 0.334 in (8.5 mm)
Case length 1.368 in (34.7 mm)
Overall length 2.26 max SAAMI
Rifling twist 1:8
Primer type Small rifle

300 Whisper
Parent case .221 Fireball/.223 Rem
Case type Rimless, Bottleneck
Bullet diameter 0.308 in (7.8 mm)
Neck diameter 0.33 in (8.4 mm) Shoulder diameter 0.369 in (9.4 mm)
Base diameter 0.375 in (9.5 mm)
Rim diameter 0.375 in (9.5 mm)
Rim thickness 0.041 in (1.0 mm)
Case length 1.35 in (34 mm)
Overall length 2.1 in (53 mm)
Rifling twist 1/8
Primer type Small rifle

MMA10 - I really think you getting worked up too much about this, I have some rifles like my 303 and get 8-10 reloads and it expands way more than it should but just have to anneal when it starts to show neck cracking llike 5-6 reloads.
Useing the .334 chamber Dia. of .334 and substracting .309 [listed throat Dia. this is a cast bullet site] that leaves .025 or .0125 for a neck wall thickness . The neck wall thickness on 222, 223 and 222 Rem.Mag brass is {+-} .015. trim these cases back to Blackout length and the new neck wall has to a lot thicker , requireing a chamber neck Dia. of .345 {+-} OR am I missing something ??

[Artful]

You don't just stuff a 223 in a whisper die and then cut off the excess. you do have to trim the case for neck wall consistancy which thins it. Any time you neck up the neck gets thinner any time you neck down you wind up with thicker neck and have to cut it to correct
(example .308 formed into .243 requires reaming neck and trimming length - but taking 308 up to 358 does not just trim to make neck mouth straight as it shortens and thins neck)

[82nd airborne]

Thats what I like about the BLK is not having to ream brass any more, for that on anyway.

[Wayne S]

You don't just stuff a 223 in a whisper die and then cut off the excess. you do have to trim the case for neck wall consistancy which thins it. Any time you neck up the neck gets thinner any time you neck down you wind up with thicker neck and have to cut it to correct
(example .308 formed into .243 requires reaming neck and trimming length - but taking 308 up to 358 does not just trim to make neck mouth straight as it shortens and thins neck)
Tremanology , to shorten any case is called "trimming" IE; file and TRIM die
when you thin the neck wall thickness to a set thickness even all around that is either neck TURNING done on the outside of the case or neck REAMING, which is done on the inside of the case neck.
Airborne, so you are telling us that you can take any 223 Rem. case, size in a Whisper/Blackout forming/sizing die, TRIM off the excess case, deburr the mouth, M die it, load a .309 sized bullet and it will chamber and fire in a weapon ??

[82nd airborne]

Well, I cut it off before sizing, but yes that is correct.

[Wayne S]

If you google 300 blackout drawings, there is a link to "silencertalk" that has what you want.
http://www.silencertests.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=128&t=65932

Something still dosen't add up ???, drawings of both , the Whisper & the Blackout reamers show the case neck OD at .337, .335 on the Blackout and a straight .3365 on the whisper. A bullet sized to .309 + .015 neck wall thickness = .339 OD of a loaded reoud.

82 Airborne, what is the average neck wall thickness of some of your black cases formed from 223 Rem. brass ??

[Wayne S]

Something still dosen't add up ???, drawings of both , the Whisper & the Blackout reamers show the case neck OD at .337, .335 on the Blackout and a straight .3365 on the whisper. A bullet sized to .309 + .015 neck wall thickness = .339 OD of a loaded reoud.

82 Airborne, what is the average neck wall thickness of some of your black cases formed from 223 Rem. brass ??
I STAND SELF CORRECTED
I made 2 Whisper cases[metal blade in the skil saw make life easy] both case neck walls were .010-.0115 so rhat will work. BUT since that was a "bolt gun" project and I can't find a 223 bolt head for my long LH Savage action's bolt.

[Artful]

Excuse me when you just ram a 223 into a whisper die don't you find after trimming to length that the neck wall thickness is uneven? If not who's brass are you using?

[45r]

Excuse me when you just ram a 223 into a whisper die don't you find after trimming to length that the neck wall thickness is uneven? If not who's brass are you using?

When I cut some 223 down I noticed the same thing,brass wasn't even and federal looked best in thickness but would need trimming to be perfect.Win brass was thinner in neck area.Have a 221 CZ and will have to trim necks to use 223 in it.I was interested in 300BLK but read it isn't that good for hunting with the small metplat at subsonic velocity,now leaning towards a big-bore AR.They have a big metplat.If anyone has made the 300BLK work as good for hunting at subsonic velocity,what boolit do you use.There are a lot of thick brushy,swampy areas near my property and it isn't no fun looking for bucks if there isn't much of a blood trail.Don't have any problems using heavy 45 cal boolits,high shoulder shots drop em right there.If they do run it ain't far and there is a good blood trail.I've got at least 52 bucks over the years,around half with a bow and blood trails are very important to find them around here.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Avoiding cutting off and then trimming (to make the case mouth even), reaming (or turning) the new neck, combined with a slightly greater internal volume, is why I've always went with 221 FB brass necked up. Yes, the neck is pretty thin, but it grips the bullets just fine -- plenty of neck tension.

The 223 brass is much more available on the once-fired market, and therefore cheaper, but I don't mind buying 500-1000 FB brass, converting it, and then keeping track of it. (Brass catcher is very handy!)

[MakeMineA10mm]

When I cut some 223 down I noticed the same thing,brass wasn't even and federal looked best in thickness but would need trimming to be perfect.Win brass was thinner in neck area.Have a 221 CZ and will have to trim necks to use 223 in it.I was interested in 300BLK but read it isn't that good for hunting with the small metplat at subsonic velocity,now leaning towards a big-bore AR.They have a big metplat.If anyone has made the 300BLK work as good for hunting at subsonic velocity,what boolit do you use.There are a lot of thick brushy,swampy areas near my property and it isn't no fun looking for bucks if there isn't much of a blood trail.Don't have any problems using heavy 45 cal boolits,high shoulder shots drop em right there.If they do run it ain't far and there is a good blood trail.I've got at least 52 bucks over the years,around half with a bow and blood trails are very important to find them around here.

We were posting at same time, so I missed this.

I don't do any subsonic hunting (suppressors are illegal for hunting in my state), but I really like the 135gr Sierra SSP (Single-Shot Pistol) bullet at super-sonic speeds. Through a 300 Whisper/BLK, they are going about the same speed as they were designed for through something like a T/C Contender.

If you really want to do subsonic, I know the 180gr bullets can easily be made subsonic and still cycle the action. You'd just need to find one that weight (or heavier) that opens really easy. I believe the new-ish Federal Fusion bullet has that reputation, but I'm not sure what weights it is available in. (I think they are a rifle-version of Speer Gold-Dots, where the jacket is very thin and electro-chemically plated to the core, so the jacket is thin and soft and easily peels back.)

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Wait Grasshopper, Sensei Swede is going to make a fat meplat 247gr mould early this summer for us.

All things in due time...

Rich
waiting like the rest

[rsilvers]

Western Powders just finished load data:

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=128&t=73990&p=703444#p703444

[Artful]

Thanks Robert

[greywuuf]

45r.. still out there ? shoot over to the "quarterbore" forums, there are a couple guys there ( Spook alleycat and a few others) that hunt extensively with supressed whispers. Look into bullets from "Outlaw state" I think it is, they have some over 200 grain ( 240's I beleive) that supposedly expand well at subsonic velocity, Also the word is that the 240's being so long are on the ragged edge of stability anyway and that on contact tend to tumble ( whole nother subject I know ) but there are many instances of very good results from the braodhead type wound resulting from a Sideways 240 grain match king. as always bullet placement is paramount. of course that is all J-word bullet info, as far as the cast goes look to the black specific group buy that just closed... looking forward to hearing how that works out myself.

[bruce drake]

I'm really interested in seeing how Lyman's 311413 Spitzer 169gr does in the 300 BLK upper that Aaron and his partners at Delta Co Arms are building for me.

Since its a spitzer it should feed fine with the M4 feedramps and the modified M16 magazines as well. I've bought two 5 round Magazines for hunting purposes to comply with NY State (current residence) hunting regulations as well.

My plinking plans are for either Lyman's 311410 (130gr plain base) or LEE's .309 150gr FN, ..311 155gr Spitzer, .312 185 RN and .309 200gr RN boolits....yes, I plan on experimenting a lot when the upper is delivered and I get home from Afghanistan!

Buckshot from this forum has just mailed to my home a custom-made LEE-style Case Length gauge to make the cartridges at a nice middle length between SAAMI minimum and maximum length cartridges.

I am also interested if anyone has developed functional AR loads for 300 BLK with Red Dot and cast bullets. I know its two different types of gas systems but I'be been able to get my SKS to operate with Red Dot (7gr with LEEs 155gr) and was wondering if anyone has played with this powder and weight combo yet with a carbine length gas system.

Bruce