4064/311299/Krag

[Mark Daiute]

Been using this combo in my Krag and getting surprisingly good results with about 31 grains. I'd like to up the anti a little and do away with any fillers. At 36 grains I'd be in jacketed territory.

I'm using bullets cast from wheel weights, air cooled and gas-checked. How much more can I push them?

Thanks and stay warm,

Mark

[Dutch4122]

Mark-

It shouldn't be too hard to get into jacketed velocity with the .30-40 Krag; but you'll need to change a few things in order to guarantee easier success.

First of all is the alloy. You can't go wrong with 50% wheelweight and 50% pure lead, water dropped from the mold into a bucket of water. Size, lube and check them within 24-48 hours after casting. Let them sit for at least 2 weeks and they will harden to approx 22 bhn. This alloy water dropped is hard, but malleable. Very well suited to rifle loads over 2,000 fps, and accurate.

Next is lube. Pick a good one as Lee ALox or a cheap pistol lube won't work. I recommend BAC made by White Label Lube, which is a product sold by a member here that goes by the handle Lar45.

Powder selection is very important. If you find that accuracy goes wild with 4064 as you increase powder/velocity then you know it is time to go to a slower burning powder and start over working up your loads. This is because the boolit needs to leave the barrel before the pressure generated overstresses your alloy. If your Krag has a short barrel then you'll probably not have to worry too much about 4064 burning too fast while trying to match jacketed velocity. But if you have an original Infantry Rifle length barrel you should expect to end up using a powder with a burn rate somewhere around 4831 or slower. I use IMR-7828 in the 7.62x54r for loads fired through my Mosin Nagant long barreled Infantry rifles with slugs over 200 grns. Another benefit here is that no fillers are needed with the slower burning powders as they will fill the case; in other words, consumable fillers.

Next is boolit fit. When using a bore riding design make sure you have a boolit that will engrave the nose when chambered. If your 311299 doesn't do this I would then suggest you move up to the 314299 and try that. Also, measure the inside of the caseneck in a casing that has been fired in your rifle. Then subtract .001" from that measurement and that will be the diameter that you should size your boolits to. Once you do both of these things you will have the slug stable at both ends when it is chambered and fired.

Hope this helps,

[Mark Daiute]

Matt,
Fantastic stuff, thanks. Right now I'll stick with the 4064 since I am having such good luck with it and only need to go from 31 grains or so to 36 grains.

You mention 50/50 wheel weight/lead- what about straight wheelweights?

I have a 314299 I sized to .313 for my full length Krag and I use the 311299 in my shortened Krag that has a good tight bore.

Can't remember which of the Lyman Lubes I've got right now. I think it's simply "Lyman Lube". An order in with Lars is definitely in order.

Thanks so much for the reply!

Mark

[Maineboy]

I've had pretty good luck with heavier boolits in my Krag using IMR 4064. The "hunting load" in my Krag sporter with a 24" barrel is the RCBS 30-180-FN, which weighs just a few grains shy of 200 grains, using 33.6 grains. I've chronographed it at 1894 fps and will it put 10 rounds in 3 inches at 100 yards..
One of the most accurate loads in this rifle is the Lyman 314299 with 31 grains of 4064 but I haven't chronoed that one. It will do 2 inches for 5 rounds just as often as not. Both boolits are sized .311 and are tumble lubed with LLA and cast from straight wheel weights. I haven't tried any hotter loadings as these loads both do what I want them to.

[Dutch4122]

Matt,
Fantastic stuff, thanks. Right now I'll stick with the 4064 since I am having such good luck with it and only need to go from 31 grains or so to 36 grains.No problem there. Just remember that if your groups suddenly "go wild" somewhere before 36 grains you'll need to go to a slower burning powder.

You mention 50/50 wheel weight/lead- what about straight wheelweights?Straight air cooled wheelweights are hit or miss over 2,000 fps. The 50/50 wheelweight/pure lead alloy water dropped is just more accurate for me. 50/50 performs great on game as well. Again, it is malleable, not brittle at rifle velocity.

I have a 314299 I sized to .313 for my full length Krag and I use the 311299 in my shortened Krag that has a good tight bore.Sounds like a good start. Better than sizing .309" and trying to go above 2,000 fps.

Can't remember which of the Lyman Lubes I've got right now. I think it's simply "Lyman Lube". An order in with Lars is definitely in order.Good move, you won't be sorry.

Thanks so much for the reply!

Mark


Just let me know if I can be of any more help. :D

[madsenshooter]

Wow, can't beat that for free advice Mark. I don't have much experience with 50/50 WW/Pb, I simply add enough of a tin based babbitt to WW to bring the Sn up to 5-7%, and wind up with a boolit that air cools to around 23bhn. Probably not much good for hunting, but pretty tough, it takes 35,000psi easily. Things will be touchy with WW @2000, it's something you'll have to work up to keeping an eye out for leading, and the point where the groups suddenly get much larger. If that point turns out to be below 2000, as Dutch said, time to go to a slower burning powder, or change your alloy or heat treatment.

[georgewxxx]

As you work your way up on powder, you might try sizing to a smaller diameter if groups start getting too big for your criteria. I shoot 3 Krag rifles and rarely size any larger than .309. I used to fire in high power matches at the local club with a 1899 carbine, and out-shot people with M1's. The only way your going to know for sure what will be best in your rifle is experiment and see what works. ...Geo

[oldhickory]

It's great to see all these Krag fans here. I've long considdered the Krag to be the optimum .30 cast boolit rifle caliber.

[Mark Daiute]

As you work your way up on powder, you might try sizing to a smaller diameter if groups start getting too big for your criteria. I shoot 3 Krag rifles and rarely size any larger than .309. I used to fire in high power matches at the local club with a 1899 carbine, and out-shot people with M1's. The only way your going to know for sure what will be best in your rifle is experiment and see what works. ...Geo

Cast OR jacketed, when I got my rifle it would spray bullets all over a 24X36 sheet at 50 yards, and I'm not exaggerating, I mean spray with no discernible pattern. I drove a lead .32 caliber ball down the bore and measured the results and came up with .312. After that I loaded 314299's sized to .313 and wonder of wonders, the next time I shot the rifle the group was under 2 inches. That rifle now shoots 1.5" groups at 100 yards. The bore is not pretty to look at but it shoots as good as I can see.

The bore on my Carfle is perfect and shoots .309's just fine.

Thanks, everyone,

Mark

[Mark Daiute]

I've had pretty good luck with heavier boolits in my Krag using IMR 4064. The "hunting load" in my Krag sporter with a 24" barrel is the RCBS 30-180-FN, which weighs just a few grains shy of 200 grains, using 33.6 grains. I've chronographed it at 1894 fps and will it put 10 rounds in 3 inches at 100 yards..
One of the most accurate loads in this rifle is the Lyman 314299 with 31 grains of 4064 but I haven't chronoed that one. It will do 2 inches for 5 rounds just as often as not. Both boolits are sized .311 and are tumble lubed with LLA and cast from straight wheel weights. I haven't tried any hotter loadings as these loads both do what I want them to.

No fillers in either load I take it....

[Maineboy]

No fillers in either load I take it....

Correct, no fillers.

[leadman]

If the Lyman lube you are using is black in color it is a pretty good lube.

[Char-Gar]

The 30-40 rounds is a near perfect case for cast bullet shooting. The Krag rifle is a fine rifle, but it's design brings some issues to the table.

1. The steel in these rifles can be very hard and brittle. It is the same stuff as the low numbered 03s which can turn into grenades if gas gets loose in the action. Krags won't turn into grenades because the action doesn't trap the gas. However, these actions can be damaged or destroyed by excessive pressure.

2. Fast powders like Unique, 2400, 4795, 4227 and the like make good low to mid-range Krag loads. But these faster powders do give a quicker jolt to the old hard steel.

3. When pressures get up to near factory/military loads, a slower powder treats the old actions much better. How slow is slow? I would go with the slowest that gets the job done.

4. There are several powders that fill the bill for No. 3 above. I use WC872 which is a very slow mil-supp ball powder developed for the 20mm Vulcan round. I use a full case (50 grains) shaken down, which will give light compression with a 200 - 220 grain bullet. Velocity is 1, 950 to 2,050 depending on barrel length and rifle. Accuracy has always been very good. This load is equal to the original military Krag load.

Krags are wonderful rifles and very addicting. I have four and can't do without any of them. I will my first deer with a cut down military Krag in 1960. The rifle cost me $15.00 and I still have it.

[Mark Daiute]

The 30-40 rounds is a near perfect case for cast bullet shooting. The Krag rifle is a fine rifle, but it's design brings some issues to the table.

1. The steel in these rifles can be very hard and brittle. It is the same stuff as the low numbered 03s which can turn into grenades if gas gets loose in the action. Krags won't turn into grenades because the action doesn't trap the gas. However, these actions can be damaged or destroyed by excessive pressure.

2. Fast powders like Unique, 2400, 4795, 4227 and the like make good low to mid-range Krag loads. But these faster powders do give a quicker jolt to the old hard steel.

3. When pressures get up to near factory/military loads, a slower powder treats the old actions much better. How slow is slow? I would go with the slowest that gets the job done.

4. There are several powders that fill the bill for No. 3 above. I use WC872 which is a very slow mil-supp ball powder developed for the 20mm Vulcan round. I use a full case (50 grains) shaken down, which will give light compression with a 200 - 220 grain bullet. Velocity is 1, 950 to 2,050 depending on barrel length and rifle. Accuracy has always been very good. This load is equal to the original military Krag load.

Krags are wonderful rifles and very addicting. I have four and can't do without any of them. I will my first deer with a cut down military Krag in 1960. The rifle cost me $15.00 and I still have it.

figuring in a 20 dollar hazmat fee and the current price for WC872 and your 50 grain load I'm coming in at under 7 cents per load for the powder... BUT I already have 8 pounds of 4064!

[Kraschenbirn]

... BUT I already have 8 pounds of 4064!

Same reason I use 36.5 gr IMR4350 under a Lee 309-200 in my carbine-length sporter...I've got bunch on hand. Produces around 1980 fp; close enough to the old jacketed 220 gr. RN @ 2000 to work for me.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

I have about 60 lbs of the stuff. I bought is when it was cheap.

[Mark Daiute]

I have about 60 lbs of the stuff. I bought is when it was cheap.

which stuff? 4064?:D

[Char-Gar]

NO..WC872 is the stuff to which I made reference. I have used very little 4064. It is too close to 4895 and 3031 to make it stand out as something I would find useful. I bought many, many pounds of 4895 when it was still govt surplus. I used 3031 when I could not find 4859 and have found it to be very useful in the 30-30, 45-70 and a number of other rounds.

Lots of luck in your quest for loads with 4064, I really can not be of any help.

[uscra112]

I've always been of the impression that Krags were case hardened, not through heat treated like the 03. Do you have a source for the idea that they're the same steel as the 03?

[ambergrifleman]

Krags are Wonderful Old Rifles, I Love my Carbine and Rifle.

[madsenshooter]

"I've always been of the impression that Krags were case hardened, not through heat treated like the 03. Do you have a source for the idea that they're the same steel as the 03?"

Pg225-226, Hatcher's Notebook, same steel, different treatment. Krag receivers were quenched in oil at 1600F and tempered for 2 hours at 1200F. Low numbered Springfields were carburized in bone 4 hours at 1500F, then quenched in oil. Later 03s got a more extensive treatment, and a change of steel.

[Mark Daiute]

clinkity clink- I got in on the group buy/311284 and cast up some 50/50 lead wheelwheight bullets which I water dropped as suggested. Man are they hard and they almost ring. The first batch will not take a finger nail. I must've messed up the alloy cause the second batch is not quite so hard, doesn't sound quite the same and will take a finger nail, but only barely. I'll report after this weekend when I should be able to try the first batch.

By the way, got the BAC lube from Lars as suggested as well. This is fun stuff and I can spend all my money right here!

[madsenshooter]

Mark, you have a Krag that you can get a .313" diameter bullet into? About all mine top out at .312" with Remington brass, and chambering them is difficult. I found a .311 sizing die that leaves them at .3115. When I know I'm going to be putting cast into the case, I use an expander for the .303 British in my Krag die. If I use the regular Krag expander, the neck squeezes the bullet down, even the hard ones! The 303 expander saves me the trouble of sizing with an M die. I think you'll like that 311284, most all my Krags have a .301 bore, and at .3025" it has a nose big enough to do the job.

[wiljen]

I do basically the same as madsen but since I only have 1 krag I shoot with any regularity, I often neck size in a 303 die so I have the 312 expander.

[Char-Gar]

I have 4 Krags that run from .308 to .312 in the grooves. None of them will take a .313 cast bullet without the round being tight in the chamber. .312 is as big as I can go in all the rifles. In the one rifle that needs something larger, I neck turn the brass and then .313 bullet work just fine.

[madsenshooter]

That's amazingly tight tolerance for over 100 years ago. They must have measured the chambering reamers pretty often. Though some collectors disagree with me, I have one 98 that I'm pretty sure has a star-gauged barrel. There's a 6 pointed star under the P proof mark, and it is a tight barrel, .299 bore, .3065 groove.

[Mark Daiute]

I'm suspicious that the 314299 I use in my Krag is already topped out at .312. When I use the Lee 303 British boolit, sized with the same .313 die I DO have chambering issues.

So far the group buy 311284 shoots wonderfully and likes the 4064 just fine. At 34 grains the vertical stringing stops. All my testing has been in the back yard where I'm limited to 50 yards. Tomorrow evening I'm headed out to the range to try this load at 100 and 200 yards. This has been with the 50/50 water dropped boolits as suggested with the BAC lube. The dowside to all this is that the boolits are getting "that annoying ring" on them when I seat them. I hope to chrono them and perhaps push them some more.

Are these rounds too hard to hunt deer with?

One last question.

I have quite a few 311299's, acww. How much can I push them? Do I need to relegate them to loads with 4759 or can I push them more and go to 3031 or 4064?


Funny! I just re-read my original post and the paragraph above is, more or less, my original question! In the meantime I've had a great time alloying, casting and loading!

[madsenshooter]

Your ACWW would be limited to around 25,000 psi, and your vertical stringing with the lower charges of 4064 shows that it prefers to be in a higher pressure range to burn efficiently. You might try around 30gr of 3031. I've never used it myself, so don't know much about it. That annoying ring is the bullet being swaged down or shaved a tad by the caseneck. You'll get better accuracy without it. If you're using Lee dies, the expander for the .303 is around $7, I think. Order something else while you're there to make the shipping worthwhile.

[Shiloh]

That bullet, the 311299 is too small for my Krag. The boolit is too small at sub .310 and the nose is WAY undersized. The 314299 shines in both the Krag and '03.

Shiloh

[mustanggt]

30grs of 3031 is my one and only load for 314299 sized .312 in my 03A3. I've not tried it in my Krag. The load I found for my Krag that has the same performance as the 03A3 load is 23grs of IMR 4198. Here's my range report: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=114664

[Mark Daiute]

Mark-

It shouldn't be too hard to get into jacketed velocity with the .30-40 Krag; but you'll need to change a few things in order to guarantee easier success.

First of all is the alloy. You can't go wrong with 50% wheelweight and 50% pure lead, water dropped from the mold into a bucket of water. Size, lube and check them within 24-48 hours after casting. Let them sit for at least 2 weeks and they will harden to approx 22 bhn. This alloy water dropped is hard, but malleable. Very well suited to rifle loads over 2,000 fps, and accurate.,

So, what happens if you don't lube and size within 24-48 hours, let's say in 3 or 4 days?.....

[Dutch4122]

So, what happens if you don't lube and size within 24-48 hours, let's say in 3 or 4 days?.....

In theory,:roll: the longer you wait to size the boolits after water dropping them the more you will "work soften" your hardening boolits; thus defeating the purpose of water dropping them. In practice I have sized after 3 or 4 days since the slugs were water dropped and could tell no difference on the target.

I wouldn't really worry about it if you waited a couple of extra days before sizing.

Hope this helps, :mrgreen: