.45 problem with jamming

[lunicy]

I can't get my .45 to be reliable.

lee's .45 RF 23gr mold
boolits sized to .452
It will cycle at home by hand.
The first 5-10 rounds work fine at the range.
Then the rounds wont chamber all the way. The slide stays back a little.
If you push the slide forward, it will chamber and shoot.
It gets progressively harder and harder.


I'm stumped

[dubber123]

Lead/lube buildup in the chamber will do that. It requires a pretty stiff brush to get the chamber clean. Do you have enough taper crimp on the loaded rounds?

[white eagle]

when I had auto loader I was always told to keep them clean
that dirt and grime wold cause more probs than most give credit to
sounds like your problem

[lunicy]

if it is lead build up (i think it is cuz' i clean the chamber well and my boolits have no exposed lube or grime), what would cause it?

[lunicy]

Lead/lube buildup in the chamber will do that. It requires a pretty stiff brush to get the chamber clean. Do you have enough taper crimp on the loaded rounds?

how much is enough taper crimp? should I be able to feel the edge of the brass?

[btroj]

Went thru the same thing. I finally kept adding a little more crimp until everything fed fine. My loaded rounds were .473 at the case mouth. Some did exactly wha you described. I went to .468 and no problems. I am now back to .471 and no problems.
Experiment and see what YOUR gun wants. Every chamber is different. It is yours that matters.

[Char-Gar]

It is easy to load ammo for a 1911 that is fully functional. Folks can second guess your problem all day long and never hit the right item. Or they might hit the right item and amid the various points of view it will get lost in the confusion.

Buy a Dillon or other make of loaded ammo guage and see how your ammo fits. By, paying attention to the basic and a little head scratching you can find your own problem. You really need on of these guages anyhow.

[35remington]

"lee's .45 RF 23gr mold"

Lee does not make a mould of this description.

Could you please describe it more accurately? Then we will be better able to help you.

Is it:

The 255 RF
The 230-2R
The 228-1R

Or something else? "45 RF 23" is nonsensical. It fits none of the bullets Lee currently makes.

How far from closing is the slide when it jams? What is the overall length of the cartridge when the bullet is loaded into the case?

[RobS]

You really need on of these guages anyhow.


????

I suppose that the countless rounds shot through 45 autos without one are just not good enough or something. His rounds cycle at home and not at the range. The difference is they are being fired at the range so a case gage would tell a person they chamber at home, but what about why they won't after firing them at the range and is my question to you.

lunicy:

The crimp at the mouth of .470 is common with a jacketed bullet and sense would tell you that with a larger cast boolit that this reading would change. I use .471-.472 and have never had any 1911 or XD or whatever not feed. Since you are experiencing your problems from a clean chamber/barrel and only after the first 5 or so rounds then it sounds like lead is being scrapped off possibly at the end of the chamber; where the barrel starts. This can also happen with boolits that are too large in diameter for the throat. What are you sizing bullets to???

[mike in co]

i'll back up a bit and ask about oal.........

if it is close and it get dirty it does not fit..
if the mouth dia is close to chamber size and it gets dirty it will not fit......

how consistant are the rounds ?

if all is close and some are on the high side...then they will stick...


lots of posibilities

mike in co

[Char-Gar]

RobS... I was trying to be subtle, which seldom works for me. The long and short of it is, folks are better served, if they do a bit of learning and figure out things for themself. A guage will be that learning tool to help the poster solve his own problem.

Perhaps, I am getting old (well no doubt about that), but folks these days want to throw a general question on the internet and get a shotgun spray of answers. If the fellow knew how to sort through the spray of answers, he would not have needed to ask the question in the first place.

If you give the man an answer he smiles and goes on, with the immediate problem solved. If you help him solve the problem himself, he had gained much more knowledge and understand for the effort.

Dats all..Not trying to be a smart ass, just helpful in some substantial way.

[Shooter6br]

Use Lee taper die and check each round with a Dillion or simular case gage. The cast bullet can bulge the case enough to cause malfunction

[btroj]

I agree, to an extent , Chargar. People are sometimes too quick to ask a question when they come up against a hurdle. I too think they should they to figure things out for themselves.
However, I am new to loading for a 1911 in 45 ACP also. I had the exact same trouble. Once I got things figured out it became easy to loads lots of ammo that functions without fail. It took me about 500 rounds to get to that point. I found the 1911 to be more of a challenge to load for than any revolver I have had. As a reloader for 25 years I find a revolver much easier to figure out.
You may have years of loading for the 1911 but not everyone does. I was shocked at the troubles I had when I first got my 1911, embarrassed even.
I though his question was pretty specific. He got some info and now it is up to him to go try things. Then he may have more questions.

There is a fine line between asking too many questions and asking a valid question. I don't feel he crossed that line.

[waksupi]

The way I went about it, was to seat the bullet, then drop it in the chamber, and bringing the crimp down a bit at a time until they freely chambered. Worked for me, at least.

[lunicy]

I do appreciate the help guys. I will keep you updated.

I Don't have a case gauge but I have tried a number of combination.
Boolits are sized, and I did go through the trouble to mic them for this specific problem. They are consistent.
I have changed the OAL all up and down the range of specs. (even a little over and under spec)

I have not messed with the crimp much and will give it a little more (and keep records)

The slide is approx an 1/8" from closing.


and for the record, it is a Lee 230gr boolit (not a 23gr. That would be a touch light)

[Shooter6br]

Yes but damn fast!!!

[BD]

There are a couple of baseline questions to get out of the way going into a 1911 question like this:

Does the loaded round pass the "thunk" test in your barrel?, (with the barrel out of the gun will a loaded round dropped into the chamber result in a definite thunk when it head spaces, with the case head winding up below the hood of the barrel)


Will the gun cycle easily by hand without the recoil spring?, (there are timing and barrel lug engagement issues which can also cause a hitch in the last 1/8" of lock up, no matter what ammo you're trying to feed)

If you sort those two issues out the folks trying to help will at least be in the correct ball park.

BD

[btroj]

Seems to me that most of the rounds I have that fail to allow the sold to fully go forward show a slight, and I mean slight, bulge towards the base of the bullet. I am using .452 bullets and it is almost like I get a case on occasion that is just bit thicker than normal. I don't drop every round I the barrel to test them so I don't know it that would catch these rounds or not.
Do some of you guys actually drop every round in a case gauge? I understand defense ammo or those rounds used in timed competition but I can't imagine checking thousands of rounds per year.

[mike in co]

Seems to me that most of the rounds I have that fail to allow the sold to fully go forward show a slight, and I mean slight, bulge towards the base of the bullet. I am using .452 bullets and it is almost like I get a case on occasion that is just bit thicker than normal. I don't drop every round I the barrel to test them so I don't know it that would catch these rounds or not.
Do some of you guys actually drop every round in a case gauge? I understand defense ammo or those rounds used in timed competition but I can't imagine checking thousands of rounds per year.

lol...
what about 1000's per month........
once you have a set up thet works, you can probably pass the check step........but only once everything is worked out and a pattern of reliability established...

by the way which 230 lee boolit is this.....

i had loading issue with one(the 228) and sold it and bought a different one

[btroj]

I use the 230 TC. Not a round nose.
I now only use the chamber drop test when trying something new like a different amount of taper crimp or a new bullet.
Like I said, an autoloader is a whole different beast from a revolver. Makes me enjoy my revolvers that much more but their is nothing quite like a 1911 is there?

[Az Rick]

Let the gun determine the OAl, keeping in mind that if you seat the bullet deeper, you'll raise pressures, so back off if that's the case. Use your barrel as the case gauge dropping every round in, then go shoot. See if that fixes it. Set aside rounds that don't work to determine why they don't.
If you're using range pick-up brass be aware that some pistols, Glock for one have unsupported chambers which allow the brass to bulge at the base, especially if they're loaded hot. This brass will not function in many guns especially if your gun has a tight or match chamber. I use a undersize die from Evolution Gun Works which also sizes further down the case removing the bulge. The downside is it works the case hard and shortens case life. Keep us posted, let us know what you figured out.
Some pistols just don't like certain bullet profiles, that's why truncated cone is so popular in competition, it's easiest to get to work reliably.

Best Rick

Once I figured all this out, I've fired thousands without an FTF or FTE, and I don't clean my game gun all that often.

[MtGun44]

More TC, or seat boolit a bit deeper. This symptom is THE most common with .45 ACP,
and is almost always inadequate or no taper crimp. The second most common is too long
a seating depth. The next is seating and crimping in one die and building up a ring of
lead ahead of the case mouth.

TC with a separate die and enough that the round drops all the way in the dismounted
bbl, no more than 1 lb fingertip pressure to fully chamber.

Bill

[BD]

I don't think that anyone checks every single round they load, whether using the barrel or a die. But I sure check them if they're giving me problems.

BD

[Char-Gar]

btroj.. I dont think the question was out of order, or crossed any line. I am just a teacher by nature and my natural response is to help somebody answer their own questions. The process will give them far more than just one answer to one issue. No slight intended.

[btroj]

I agree Chargar. I see way too many " tell me all I need to know" questions. I just thought this was finally a pretty concise question, and one that I had a few months ago.
I will say that once you figure out what a 1911 want sit is easy to feed. Figuring out what it wants was the hard part for me. My revolvers feed anything, and auto is much pickier.

[Char-Gar]

btol.. I figured out what I wanted in my 1911s many moons ago.

1. 452460/5/BE
2. 452423/4.7BE

Clean cases, size cases, expands case mouths with M die, prime cases, charge cases, seat bullets and taper crimp. Use the barrel as a bullet seating guage.

Then go shooting and any decent 1911 will gobble them up with no problems. Easy peasy!

Not much to it...

[mike in co]

Glock for one have unsupported chambers which allow the brass to bulge at the base, especially if they're loaded hot. .

Best Rick

.

GLOCKS DO NOT HAVE"UNSUPPORTED" CHAMBERS....

they do have LARGE CHAMBERS.....THIS , IN 40 S&W has led to a brass sizing issue. it has been addressed by redding a with a push thru full lenght sizier.

some 1911 style guns in some calibers have feed ramps which cut past the base of the brass, into the case wall area...this is an "unsupported" chamber. 38 supers sometimes have this issue.

( in the very beginning of glock sales, they issued some 40 s&w guns with unsupported chambers...these were all recalled and replaced......no glock sold today has an unsupported chamber)

mike in co

[scrapcan]

Also would be good to know what powder and lube ( I think he is tumble lubing, but not sure) he is using in the load.

some powders burn dirty and couple that with a sticky (not fully dry) application of lee liquid alox and you get grime.

I would also like to know how it feeds factory ammunition.

the 228 1r has a pretty round ogive which can cause issues in the barrel leade on some guns.

[CJR]

You've received a lot of good advice here. If initially your reloads function properly and then the 1911 fails to go to battery, I'd look for a slightly tight, distorted, or tapered chamber that starts acting up when the chamber gets powder residue build-up. Gunsmiths will run a chamber reamer in your chamber for a small fee. I've yet to find a 1911 chamber that didn't clean up by re-reaming with a precision reamer. It seems to me that when a NEW 1911 gets "warmed up", from hot weather and rapid firing, the barrel appears to temper from the heat and distort slightly. Then I've found that after re-reaming the chamber, the barrel is stable. Likewise, many 1911s were sold with intentionally tight chambers, I guess on the premise that somehow it improved accuracy. A 1911 has got to go bang every time, and if it doesn't it needs to be fixed. Also, if truncated bullets are seated too long, the shoulder can cause problems. The fix for that is a slight chamber throating, but that doesn't appear to be your problem.

Best regards,

CJR

[lunicy]

Also would be good to know what powder and lube ( I think he is tumble lubing, but not sure) he is using in the load.

some powders burn dirty and couple that with a sticky (not fully dry) application of lee liquid alox and you get grime.

I would also like to know how it feeds factory ammunition.

the 228 1r has a pretty round ogive which can cause issues in the barrel leade on some guns.

No tumble lube, I use a lyman.
I use bullseye.

It feeds factory ammo fine with no probs, even factory lead. (which is why its driving me nuts)

I havent had a chance to experiment more, but i will.

[Trifocals]

Most everything concerning this problem seems to have been covered. I would stress the importance of uniform case length. A case length gauge is not a big investment. My experience has been that .45 ACP brass, even from the same lot, can vary in length. I don't believe that anyone mentioned a weak recoil spring. Sometimes this sort of problem can be cured by installing a stiffer recoil spring. LOL

[Char-Gar]

Trifocals.. I don't believe, I have ever know of anybody trimming 45 ACP cases. I also don't know of anybody who segregates case by length. Segregating by makers and lot is about as far as even the most serious Bullseye shooter goes.

Do you or anybody you know trim or segregate 45 ACP by length. I am trying to learn here.

Now 9mm Luger is another deal. Segregating cases by length will make a big difference in group size.

A stiffer recoil spring can help if the existing one is underpowered. However a spring that is overpowered can often cause problems of its own. Either a 16.5 or 18.5 is about right for my pistols depending on the load. The Wolfe variable springs make like a little easier.

[songdog53]

sounds to me like need to note lenght and crimp, have loaded more than i care to remember and 45acp was easiest ever to load. I have 5 45acps and they all feed good but with XP needed to adjust crimp over others that were 1911's. Course remember the round head spaces on case. Just work with load and make sure will drop into barrel with clunk then when have 6 or 8 put gun back together and go shoot them. See if they feed alright, not going into polishing feed ram but sounds like no enough chrimp to me. Just my 2 cents worth.

[handyman25]

Rule #1 never shoot brass shot in someones else gun. Hard rule to follow as most people get by just fine using picked up brass, but it elimates a lot of problems.
Rule #2 check your brass length and trim as necessary. Yes this applies even for the 45acp in the 1911. 99% will be fine but evey now and then you will find one too long. I do this on the first loading, and in a 1911 it should be good from their on. I still check my on a regular basis but that is just me.
Rule#3 check the over all length etc. A loaded round should fall with in specs. You do not need to do this on every round. I do it on a couple of rounds at the start of every loading secesson.
Now that you have loaded perfect ammo check your auto. The feed ramp should be smooth. I have seen 1911's that had a shelf that would shave off a tiny, tiny bit of lead of and end up where the case head spaces in the barrel. The round would not go home after a few shots.

Next check your magizines. I have seen lots of magazines that feed the round too low which will work with hard ball but not lead. Cheap magazines are a waste of money. My 1911 will feed empty cases and that is asking a lot. I have put a few hours into it but it will feed prure lead ammo and empty cases. Hope this helps.:castmine:

[BD]

Some days I wonder if I've lived my life in a parallel dimension, or if I'm just lucky, or what? I grew up around 1911s and currently own three of them. The oldest one in the family came home from WWI with my great grandfather and it's still shooting. I've no idea exactly how many rounds of .45 acp I've loaded and fired. I know my "games" gun alone has over 70,000 rounds through it.

Through all of that I've never trimmed a .45 acp case. I think they get shorter every time I size them. Every single .45 acp case I've ever fired has been fired in someone else's gun first. I'm looking at a box of fifty out of the 600 I loaded last Friday night and I can count 17 different head stamps in just that box, (some of them are getting pretty hard to read). All 400 of the rounds I fired Saturday went bang just fine, and the limiting factor for accuracy was between my ears, not anything to do with the gun or ammo. My brass prep consists of washing it, tumbling it a bit and looking at each case as it goes in the progressive. If it's a .45 acp, not split, and made of brass, I load it. No problem.

Maybe I'm just lucky, or maybe this is the reason I chose the .45 acp for the bulk of my pistol shootin'.

BD

[Wally]

BD

I found out why this happens...the shortening of .45 ACP cases with use, that is. A carbide sizer die doesn't resize the case down deep enough... I resized carbide sized cases with a .30-06 and/or .243 Winchester sizer die and all were then longer, when I did. The only answer that I can offer is to use a steel .45 ACP sizer die.

[scrapcan]

Also what make of brass are you using with the cast bullets? Amerc are know to be an issue, you may be running into something like that. Also some fiocchi have issues with rim thickness.

[btroj]

I am another no way to trimming 45 ACP brass guy. I have well over 3000 cases and will never trim any of them. I also don't sort them by maker. I am not a Bullseye shooter so the accuracy difference these things might make is not relevant. I want lots of ammo that works and shoots where I point it.

[Dan Cash]

"lee's .45 RF 23gr mold"

Lee does not make a mould of this description.

Could you please describe it more accurately? Then we will be better able to help you.

Is it:

The 255 RF
The 230-2R
The 228-1R

Or something else? "45 RF 23" is nonsensical. It fits none of the bullets Lee currently makes.

How far from closing is the slide when it jams? What is the overall length of the cartridge when the bullet is loaded into the case?

Jeez. Cut the guy some slack as typo's happen.

[GabbyM]

If this is the 230 grain truncated cone:
As mentioned in several post C.O.L. could be the issue.
One thing you can get into with TC bullets is the bullet body extending into the barrel throat. When clean it just slides right into the throat quite a ways even with near zero clearance. Then after some fouling occurs a friction stoppage results which requires a push forward on the slide. You can get this issue with other profiles but the way our TC bullets are cut they seam to lend themselves to this issue.

[GabbyM]

I should add that I’ve been loading TC bullets in 9x19mm for decades. Loading them so they bump the rifling and set back the cartridge head space a tad. When you’re bumping a boolit with 32K plus CUP you can count on it obturating to fill the throat. I do this with less than .001” clearance boolit to throat. Probably not a recommended combat load.

If the OP had a throat of say .4523” with a .4520” bullet. A few rounds worth of fouling would close that .0003”, or perhaps less, gap up. That’s bad luck but also Murphy’s law.

[mike in co]

guys when i got my first 45, i measured a lot of brass....why?... cause i was one of those "trim the brass to get consistant crimps"...guys.

untill recently i NEVER found a pc of 45acp brass anywhere near the design length.......

so i gave up on the idea with 45acp....low pressure, big bullet, short distance...why bother..i'm not a bullseye shooter.

i shoot lrn, fmj and hornady xtp's.....no issues, nice results.....

i do trim for my 9x21 and my 9x19 match brass..........

mike in co

[scrapcan]

Chargar,

I removed my last two posts in this thread since it is pretty apparent I was offering nothing of substance to the discussion.

I will step aside and let others who know far more than I help the OP.

You now have the reins, drive the team as one should.

[35remington]

Dan Cash:

It's an extremely relevant question. If you thought my asking for clarification was somehow offensive that's rather odd. The question needed to be asked, and the bullet used was not stated in such a way that the correct one could be determined.

Bullet type is very different among the Lee moulds, and affects feed reliability. All three differ in overall length when properly loaded.

I am not particularly interested in whether you agree or not. I simply want to know the exact bullet used. That's more than reasonable in any analysis of a jam.

[GabbyM]

Now you've all scared the OP off.
I figured I'd get trashed for suggesting a 45 acp barrel has a throat.

[roaddog1m]

I have been loading for 1911's about 18yrs now and I have experienced something similar. The fact that it cycles at home and for a few rounds at the range tells me that a case gauge (which by the way I still don't own) isn't going to solve this problem. I think it's possible that he's not putting enough bell on the case mouth and stripping some of the shank off as it is seated. The progressive build up then starts to interfere with chambering.
A little more on case gauges: I shot IPSC for years (38 Super (open class), 45 ACP and 3 gun) I shoot tactical matches only now but wanting to get into some BPCR matches. I have won several guns at matches and a lot of other stuff including boxes of plaques and some trophies. I'm now an LE firearms instructor and have been for some years. I've survived a gunfight on duty and I still don't own a case gauge. I'm not trying to either brag or bag on anyone else, just saying that I have never seen the need for one and still don't.

[35remington]

As long as you check each round to ensure it chambers completely in the barrel when it's removed from the pistol, you don't have to have a gauge.