Enemy at the Gates

[Ivantherussian03]

Hey, my favorite movie about snipers is Enemy at the Gate.

What rifle is the hero shooting?:-D

[Four Fingers of Death]

I thought that he was shooting one of the Mosin Nagant sniper rifles, but sheeooot, your the russian, you should be the expert here :-).

Now I got an excuse to get the vid out and have a look (not that I needed an excuse!) Mick.

[NickSS]

I believe it is the sniper version of the 91/30 Nagant. I have a couple of them one is all original and the other was fitted with a scout scope mount that replaced the rear sight. The scope sighted rifle is pretty accurate with Hungarian ball ammo but the bolt is hard to open a lot of times with the steel cases. I have no problems with brass cases and cast bullets though. I put the scope on mine out of curiosity to see what a 2.5 power scope would do at longer ranges without investing a fortune on an original scope. Based on my testing I am quite confident that an effective range of 3 to 4 hundred meaters is about it. The low power scope does not have sufficient definishion to reach reliably beyound that.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I saw a neat bolt/scope mount package on the Cranky Old Farmer's e bay gun shop. It involves cutting off the bolt and drilling and tapping the bolt body (all gear supplied). My Mosin is an original Remington, I'm a bit reluctant to alter it, I don't know if it has any collector value, but it is very original. Mick.

[trooperdan]

Mick, I know of a fellow that will bend a spare bolt body so you can clear a scope without altering anything original about the bolt. Let me know if you want his contact info. He does a lot of work over on www.gunboards.com and goes by the handle "Boltman" originally enough.

[dk17hmr]

Good movie.

I have always wondered how accurate those rifles really were, compared to the German k98 sniper rifles.

[SharpsShooter]

Accurate enough to give Vasily 400 Kills...240 confirmed. I recall reading somewhere that with the low powered optics that were used, shots beyond 400yds were not to0common.

SS

[Hip's Ax]

The rifle in the movie was a Mosin Nagant PU sniper. I have one I got from Sarco back in 2000 and unfortunatly it was the last one they had so its a little ratty compared to most that Sarco had sold over the previous few years. Be careful if you buy a PU now, there are a LOT of fake ones out there getting passed off as the real Macoy. At 100 yards with plain ball ammo my best group was 1 3/4" with Hungarian light ball. Was quite surprised that the best group was that big (I had tried 3 types of ball ammo) and later while cleaning the rifle I saw the action move in the stock, the screws were barely snug. Mick, please don't drill that Remington 91, they are rather rare compared to the Ishvesk 91/30 or even the Tula Mosins, you should be able to get a 91/30 for about $70, at least here in the US you can. Actually you can get "repro" 91/30 PU snipers for about $340 here. Real ones seem to be $600 and up for a PU, there are other models of Mosin snipers that go far higher.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Mick, please don't drill that Remington 91, they are rather rare compared to the Ishvesk 91/30 or even the Tula Mosins.

Yeah, I thought so, no matter what the question is on this board, it involves buying a new rifle or a new mould or something, Lorrrrrrrdy, I'm gonna die poor!

Thanks, mick.

[NickSS]

I recently read a book by a German who was a sniper on the eastern front with over 200 kills (not counting kills in open combat conditions). He uses a Russian PU for the first year he was sniping before they sent him to snipers school. They issued him a tuned and scoped 98 K at school and he had to carry it everywhere even on leave. He states that most of his kills were at less than 200 yards and made a big deal of one at 400 yards. He said the Russians and Germans thought the Russians were safe from sniper fire at that range. It is only lately that snipers are streatching ranges beyound 400 Yards due to better equipment and more accurate ammo. Especially in 50 BMG.

[Hip's Ax]

Nick, does he compare the accuracy of the Mosin to the K98? Sounds like he should have some interesting insights.

[Ivantherussian03]

So now I am curious, what is so different about the sights? In the service my M16 had a peep sight and a front post. It was no big deal for me to knock down the 300 yard pop up, and I did not shoot a lot. It had been my understanding soldiers in vietnam could reach out and tag a guy pretty far out--well beyond a 800 meters. Just curious.:-D

[Four Fingers of Death]

I get pretty good shots away at the range as well Ivan, but I'm not trying to hide in a mud puddle which smells like $hite and dead things under a sheet of tin, and there ain't anyone shooting back, so consequently I do not have to give a big part of my concentration to trying to control my bowels. No wonder I do ok sometimes, :-) Mick.

[Hip's Ax]

Ivan, if you mean the iron sights on a 91/30 or K98, they have leaf sights which are a big minus when compared to more modern peep sights like you used in the service. Your trying to line up a square or pointed front blade in a notch on the rear leaf which is on the back of the barrel then sit the target on top of the front sight. There are also no "clicks" for elevation either, just a bar that is loosened and moved along the ladder and many time no windage adjustment at all outside of pushing the front blade over. Can't imagine trying to do all that with bad guys shooting at me, its tough enough trying to do it from a bench on a piece of paper. The scoped versions are much easier to shoot, the retical is not a regular cross hair though, its a pointed spike that has horizontal bars on the left and right to help avoid tilting the rifle. I'm pretty sure the PU scope is 2.5X and the Ajack scope on the K98 was 4X. I don't have a K98 at all let alone a $10,000 sniper version but I thought it was funny when I zeroed my PU Mosin as when you twist the knobs (no clicks, it just twists like a volume control) the retical actually moves around in the sight picture. Typical Russian answer, totally simple and robust but at least there is an elevation and a windage knob. The German WWII scope (I have one on a Swede sniper) only had elevation (at least the Ajack, I don't know how many others types are out there), the windage was fixed (very hard to adjust, you have to remove the scope and adjust it on the mount with screwdrivers) and you had to hold off for any distance other than what the windage is zeroed for.
If your talking about the difference in range todays snipers are able to make a succesful shot compared to WWII thats pretty easy. Todays snipers have purpose built sniper rifles, scopes and ammo, not just good shooting standard rifles with whatever scope was available and ball ammo. The training is much better as well. The bolt rifles they use today much more resemble heavy target models than service rifles and the scopes have mil dot reticles to help with hold off and they are using real match ammo, not government made bull hocky.

[mike in co]

I WANT THE MOSIN THAT IS IN THE POSTER.....!!!

typical non gun people. when the poster for the movie was printed the negative was flopped and the results is a LEFT HANDED MOSIN SNIPER RIFLE.... i want that rifle!

[montana_charlie]

There must be a bunch of left handed people in the movie business...who like left handed rifles. It is really amazing that so many recently made combat film segments get shown 'backward'.
The most recent flub I noticed was in "Behind Enemy Lines" where the U.S. pilot was down in Bosnia. You see a line of troops walking abreast and only one was a right hander...statisticaly improbable...and they all had left handed rifles...militarily impossible.
CM

[Buckshot]

.............If I'm not mistaken the Finn's used their M-N's as issue military sniper rifles until very recently.

In the movie Kelly's Hero's (one of my fav's) the sniper in the belltower has a Mosin Nagant. A bit odd as he's an American soldier, eh?

................Buckshot

[longhorn]

Well said, Mick--post of the day!

[hydraulic]

Have you noticed that the film makers always wrap gunny sacks around the barrels of their rifles? The Russian sniper in Enemy at the Gate; the german sniper in Band of Brothers, and several others in a variety of films. More evidence that Hollywood hasn't a clue about weapons.

[hydraulic]

I meant to say the German sniper in Saving Private Ryan.

[sjohnson]

.............If I'm not mistaken the Finn's used their M-N's as issue military sniper rifles until very recently.

In the movie Kelly's Hero's (one of my fav's) the sniper in the belltower has a Mosin Nagant. A bit odd as he's an American soldier, eh?

................BuckshotCredited with over 500 kills during his service in the Finnish army during the WWII timeframe, Simo Häyhä is the most famous Finn sniper. He used both a Model 28 (a Finn-built rifle based on the Mosin) with iron sights, no scope and the Suomi K31 SMG to reach that number. He served about 100 days during the war before being wounded in the face on 3-6-40 by a Soviet sniper using an exploding round, retiring him from the war.

A good overview of the man, deceased in 2002, is given at http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/simohayha.asp

[KTN]

.............If I'm not mistaken the Finn's used their M-N's as issue military sniper rifles until very recently.


................Buckshot


We are still using M-N actions in TAK-85 sniper rifles and they are still "good enough" out to 600-700 meters.


Kaj

[ktw]

I recall reading somewhere that with the low powered optics that were used, shots beyond 400yds were not to common.

Just think, you could have changed history if you had dropped Elmer Keith into Stalingrad with his 44 mag.

-ktw

[SharpsShooter]

Just think, you could have changed history if you had dropped Elmer Keith into Stalingrad with his 44 mag.

-ktw

Yep, Elmer would certainly made a impression on the length of the German chow lines. :-D

SS

[Four Fingers of Death]

Naw.............they would have spotted that big ol' hat miles away and that big ol' stogie would smell like all get out! :-) mick.

[Linstrum]

Simo Häyhä passed away not too long ago, in 2002, at 96. He was born in 1905 but he didn't quite make it to his 97th birthday. Some of the guys who hang out over at Tuco's website, including Tuco, went over to Finland in 2000 to study the military history of Finland and to see him, and the interview they did is the basis of a lot of what we know about him that is written in English. The most famous photo of him is at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4

For more of his his story and photos toward the end of his life see:

[URL]http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/simohayha.asp

It is said that he was pretty much the way he looked, a mild-mannered, pleasant, and happy guy. As sjohnson just said a few posts above, he has the most confirmed kills of any sniper in history, 705 (505 by rifle and 200 by submachine gun) and unconfirmed the number is 742, although the Russians dispute that, saying one of their guys on the Eastern Front had more.

So is a Mosin Nagant a good accurate rifle? Absolutely if accurized. But KTN just said that already!

[d.thomson]

I just saw a documentary on the two rifle scopes in that movie and they say that the rusian one was essier to sight in and adjust( finger tip adjustment) were the German one you needed a special tool.

[d.thomson]

Using the .50 BMG a Canadian at the start of the war in Afganisan embedded with the Americans got a confimed kill at 2250 meters or about 2500 yards. First he blew the sack out of the guys hand hten he took him out. American gave him and three others the bronze star.

[brimic]

The marksmanship required from russian snipers and their rifles is pretty impressive, I found this link ashile back for sniper training qualifications

http://mosinnagant.net/sniper%20section/merke.asp

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Our local dept store had a BIG DVD sale last week, copies of "Enemy at the Gates" and "The Lighthorsemen" were going for $US 6 each

[Bigjohn]

Damn it! I had to go buy the DVD just to find out what you were all talking about! Sure hope it was worth it.

I am also informed that they gave Tom Berenger a MN to use in the movie SNIPER 2. They draped it out with some skrim cloth to 'flage it.

Must go watch this movie.

John.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Didn't they chop his trigger finger off in Sniper 1?

[Bigjohn]

NO If I recollect the baddie screwed a corkscrew into it and he had to use the middle finger.

John.

[No_1]

I believe the baddie use a wire wrapped around Tom's finger then twisted it with a wood dowel. It efffectively damaged the nerves in the finger which made the finger numb making it hard for Tom to feel the trigger. I believe in one of the last scenes it shows Tom running for the chopper with a pistol in his hand turning to shoot the bad guys. He tried to use that finger to shoot the pistol but could not and switched to the middle finger. But maybe I am wrong. I need to get that movie and the follow up to refresh myself.

Robert


NO If I recollect the baddie screwed a corkscrew into it and he had to use the middle finger.

John.

[Onlymenotu]

@ d.thomson that wasn't the 1st 2500 yard shot...Carlos Hathcock did it back in 1697 a A True American Hero



It was this man's ability to place all other lives before his own. That day in vietnam when a 500 lb box mine was exploded underneath the amtrac he was riding on Staff Sergeant Hathcock (his rank then) didn't free himself and worry about saving his own life. SSgt Hathcock inspite of his burns and injuries proceeded to save the other marines onboard from the flaming inferno that the amtrac had become. To him this wasn't an act of heroics it was simply what Marines did.

With injuries that would have felled an average man GySgt Hathcock found ways around every obstacle that was thrown in his way. By sheer will he made the most out of the disabilities he had to overcome. Even after retired from the USMC with 100% disability this man found ways to make the most of his abilities and gifts by advising and working with numerous military commands, police departments and more. Though diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, a debilitating disease that would eventually take his life he never forgot his second loves of the corps or shooting.

The USMC's GySgt. Carlos N. Hathcock Award is named after GySgt. Carlos N. Hathcock. The award is presented to an enlisted Marine who has made an outstanding contribution to marksmanship and marksmanship training. Tom Berenger portrayed Hathcock in the movie “Sniper.” Hathcock enlisted in the Marine Corps in May 1959 and served as a distinguished marksman throughout his career. He set the rifle marksmanship record for the Marine Corps "A" Course in 1963 by firing 248 points out of a possible 250. GySgt. Hathcock served two tours of duty in Vietnam where he was instrumental in forming the 1st Marine Division Scout Sniper School. When a 24-year old Marine sharpshooter named Carlos Norman Hathcock II chalked up the farthest recorded kill in the history of sniping - 2,500 yards (1.42 miles, a distance greater than 22 football fields) in February 1967 he fired a Browning M2 .50 Cal. Machine Gun. Hathcock, the military’s best known sniper, said “The most deadly thing on the battlefield is one well-aimed shot.”

[Larry Gibson]

I spent quite a bit of time comparing the M91 sniper rifles against a cpmarable M98. I have an Ishvek PU sniper in excellent condition that shoot sub MOA with loads using MK bullets. I also had access to a K98 sniper with a 6X scope on it. I found that my M24 VZ with a 6X lepold shot very much like it with 175 Sierra's or ball ammo. I ran a comparative test of the M91 PU against the M24 out to 1000 meters. I found some "D" 7.62 ball that shot under 2 MOA and used some original german heavy ball for the 8mm which also shot under 2 MOA. Both rifles were zeroed POI at 200eters. The elevation adjustment was used for all subsequent ranges (the Leupold had target adjustments) and hold off was used for wind. Using a "F" target (prone silhouette) from 200 to 500 meters proved either rifle capable of first shot hits from a prone position. Switching to a "E" target (kneeling silhouette) at 600 meters I found 1st shot hits were the norm through 800 meters. At 900 and 1000 meters I found the 6X scope to give the edge to the M24 (K98) but the percentage of 1st shot hits with the PU was still high.

I researched the snpers capabilities quite a bit and found that from WWI through the current Iraq/Afgan war the average sniper shot in tactical field environment is between 300 and 600 meters. The reasons for this is that targets present themselves because they believe they are out of range of normal SAF and those targets are still identifiable between those ranges. Those two facts hold true today as they did in WWI. The exceptions are trench warfare and MOUT warefare (Stalingrad for instance) where the ranges are much shorter and mountain warfare where longer ranges are possible. In normal urban or open terrain a 600 meter shot is a long one for any sniper.

In todays mounted fast moving style of warfare a tactical sniper or DSM (Designated Squad Marksman) will find most of his shots to be between 100 and 300 meters.

Larry Gibson

[Ivantherussian03]

I read the book "Shooter" or "Sniper", but I believe it is Shooter. The author talks about recent inovations/evolution in the the profession. The profession snipers is evolving and changing because of the 1st and 2nd Iraq Wars. very easy read, patriotic, it even made me, a jaded veteran, want to serve again.:Fire:

[madcaster]

Fellers!
Don't forget that the Rusian Ladies made wonderful snipers as well!!!