heavy boolits in .30 Carbine, in .30-06?

[JKH]

Hey Guys!

I have a scheme rolling around in my brainso here goes;

I have always been intrested in trying some Wisper-esh loads in .30 carbine but obviously cannot shoot a 170 or 200 grain cast boolit in a semi-autocarbin and I really dont/cant pony up the money to build a bolt gun in .30 Carbine. So, this is what I am thinking; heavey cast loads from 150 to 200 grains in the carbine case, then using an MCA Sports chamber adapter I would like to shoot it through a montrously heavy .30-06 bench rifle.

I figure that there wont be to horrific of a jump to the rifling lead with thoselong boolits and with the smaller case capacity I will gain better load density (which will help overcome any accuracy loss from the free-bore), and usse less power even to achieve similar velocitys as cast .30-06 loads and not have to use any kind of filler over the load, it may even broaden the spectrum of suitable powders I could use (at least theoretically).

Has anyone else tryed this? Am I nuts? Dont answer that please! Let me know your thoughts and thanks in advance.

Jeff

[rockrat]

In IHMSA shooting, one of the effective, yet relative unknow was 30 carbine barrels in the T/C contender, along with the 32-20, both using heavy boolits.
I myself shot a 32-20 using the RCBS 30-165 boolit, with good results and there were a few shooting the carbine round also with good results.
Carbine barrels were few and far between, as were 32-20 barrels, so very few shot them. People had a hard time realizing that such a small case could be very effective with heavies and very effeicient.
Or you could just try some Trail Boss loaded in a 30-06 case, with your heavy boolits.

[excess650]

Forget the chamber adaptor and load bulky flake powders like Red Dot or Unique in the subsonic range. You won't need a filler.

More than likely, Unique will be more forgiving than faster burners in that the powder charge will be larger. Lyman 45th lists 10gr Red Dot with a 193gr at 1278fps and 22.8K CUP. 11.5 Unique yields 1404fps at 24K CUP and all from a 26" test barrel. Work backwards to go subsonic.

IF you think the small capacity of the 30 Carbine will be that much better, either have some 30-06 cases turned from barstock with similar (to 30 Carbine)capacity, or else pour some to the base of the neck with lead and drill out your powder chamber and flash channel.

I've shot as low as 2.0gr Solo 1000 with a 100gr boolit from the 7.5x55, and it has identical case capacity as the 30-06(to the base of the neck). 3gr seemed to eliminate the vertical stringing as seen in the 2.0 and 2.5gr loads.

[JKH]

Hey Rockrat,

I thought perhaps there were contender barrels in .30 carbine, there cant be many calibers that[I]arent[I] made for them. Eventually I would like to have one although here in NY I have to register all my pistols to my permit which is a bit of a pain, I should get one though as they are so versatile especially with carbine kits.

I considered the .30 carbine because I own a number of .30-06's and chamber adapters are very cheap(and can be very accurate as well), I have dies and a reasonable amount of cases as well. The case seems like it would be extremely efficient with cast boolits and possibly even with jacketed, but maybe not as the wisper case does have a fair amount more capacity.

Can you give me an idea what kind of loads and results these guys were getting with the .30 carbine Contenders? Did they ever shoot heavy jacketed loads such as with 168grn SMK's for instance? I have a bunch of Nosler 155 Palma's and imagine they would work well, my main goal however revolves around the use of cast boolits.

Jeff

[JKH]

the dealwith chamber adators as made by MCA is this, they will fire-form to fit your particular chamber and willactuall obturate at the mouth to form a gas seal, even with the stainless version although the leadloy version works much better in this respect.

I like the idea of handling a much smaller case with the same boolits & delivering similar velocity's (I wont always be seeking after subsonic). Small cases working with high load densities can produce mcuh better accuracy, I have a friend that shhots benchrest ( h has even won highest aggragate, etc. at Supershoot before), he designs his chamber reamers/chambersand casings round a specific load of a specific powder (& lot for that matter) so that he has 100% load density. If he runs out of a particular lot of powder and a new lot wont perform th same, he will start from scratch so that every rfle he fields for competition is a unique wildcat made for just one load. So, this is a major part of the reason for the .30 carbine besides the fact that its lot more work/more expensive to d .300 Wisper cases than it is to just buy or trade for carbine cases, plus I couldnt find an adaptor for .300 Wisper and the .30 carbine adaptors are only $20 shipped!

Jeff

[Mugs]

Jeff
I've got 2 10" TC 30 carbine barrels that i've shot in IHMSA for years. I use the RCBS 30-165 sil boolit. The load I use is with AA#9 at 1500 fps. and has given excellent accuracy to 200 meters.
Mugs
IHMSA 5940L

[JKH]

Hey Mugs,

Ahh, the horses mouth so to speak! HAve youever seen the .30 carbine used in the manner I propose? Any other advice would be greatly appreciated as well as any pictures of loaded rounds, I am smitten b this idea & hope it works well The rifle I have is up to the task, it is an FN commercial action with a 26"nearly straight bull barrel over 1" in diameter and shoots extremely well so I am hoping that with the adaptor it will give me good chance with these heavy .30 carbine loads. I just have to orer the adaptor ;^ )

As an aside, what about doing the same thig with .30 Luger/Mauser? Better? worse? Although I dont have brass or dies for this caliberit would certainly be unique!

Jeff

[Mugs]

Jeff
It would be interesting to know what dia. the adapter bore is. It would need to be matched to your boolit dia. maybe .0005 smaller. Another cartridge you might look at is the 30 Reese. Hornady makes brass & dies. 38 SPL. necked to 30.
Mugs
IHMSA 5940L

[BerdanIII]

I believe someone at the CBA got a 154-gr Schuetzenplinker (swaged plain base) to function out of a stock M1 Carbine. Handloader magazine had a sidebar on heavy (for the cartridge) J-word bullets out of .30 Carbine Contenders for silhouette. I'll see if I can find the data. You might want to search "Trail Boss K.I.S.S." on the Web; the author found that 9 grains of TB to be pretty much universal for the full-size .30 calibers (not the carbine) and boolits from 160 to 200 grains. I think most loads were subsonic or nearly so.

RE: The .30 Luger / Mauser: SSK Industries used to make Mini- and Micro-Whisper barrels for the Contender using these cases and jacketed bullets up to 180 grains, if I remember correctly. The cartridges look like they have gland trouble. Load data if ya want it. I think the long bullet jump with the adapters would negate any advantage gained by 100% load density, but I could be wrong.

[rockrat]

Glad someone chimed in with 30 carbine data. It has been about 20 years since I shot IHMSA. Still miss shooting it.

I think sportsmans guide has adapters to shoot the 32 acp in 30-06. You might be able to have one reamed to 32 long colt, 32mag or 327 federal. That way you would have a rim for headspacing.

Good luck, sounds interesting

[wch]

Check the CPA Rifles site for some load data on this.
Some awfully good scores have been shot with these rifles.

[JKH]

rockrat,

I jst double checked MCA's site and they do make an adapter for .32 short Colt, .32 long Colt ad .32 H&R magnum for .308, .30-06 or .30-30WCF. That sounds like an intereting proposition and I will consider it for the future, I have everything for .30 carbine now except for the adapter so will go that route first.

wch,
Do you have a web address for CPA rifles? I'll try a dogpile search and see what pops up.

BerdanIII,
Usin a 200 grain LEE boolit seated to the secnd band would place the boolits ogive within 3/8" of he adapter "case" mouth, a bit of a jump when including the rifles lead, although being a commercial bench type barrel I imagie the lead is quite short, I will aveto check that some time of course

thanks guys, keep it coming!

Jeff

[BerdanIII]

From: Reduced Load Roundup, P.G. Wilkinson, Handloader's Digest, 9th. Ed.
"A charge of 11 grains of IMR-4227 gives the Schuetzenplinker [a 154-gr. swaged plain base bullet from now-defunct Alberts] about 1450 fps in the M1 carbine. When seated to fit into the magazine it feeds like a champ and operates the action semiautomatically. Its velocity is really too much for top accuracy, but with lighter loads this long bullet tips somewhat - it isn't stable in the carbines' 20" twist. Accuracy is "minute of beercan" at 50 yards."

From: M1 Silhouette Loads, C.R. Robertson, Handloader No. 156, Mar. - April 1992
150-gr Sierra 7350 - 14.5 - IMR4227 - LC53 case - CCI400 - 2.120" COL - 1522 fps
"Good all around big bore silhouette load."
150-gr Nosler 27583 - 14.5 - IMR4227 - LC53 case - CCI400 - 2.155" - 1536 fps
150-gr Speer 2011 - 14.7 - IMR4227 - LC53 case - WSR - 1.975" - 1557 fps
150-gr Rem. PSP - 17.5 - AA1680 - PS80 case - WSR - 2.080" - 1532 fps
150-gr Hornady 3031 - 17.5 - AA1680 - Win case - WSR - 2.160" - 1543 fps
"Excellent all around load."
150-gr Speer 2011 - 14.9 - H110 - Win case - WSR - 1.970" - 1646 fps
"1/4" x 1/4" one-hole, three-shot group." At 50 yds.
150-gr Speer 2011 - 14.7 - W296 - Win case - WSR - 1.975" - 1651 fps
150-gr Hornady 3031 - 15.1 - W296 - Win case - WSR - 2.165" - 1677 fps
143-gr FMJ - 15.2 - W296 - LC43 case - CCI400 - 2.100" - 1692 fps
143-gr FMJ - 15.5 - W296 - LC43 - CCI450 - 2.090" - 1.759"

"For medium power loads, AAC1680 or IMR-4227 coupled with Hornady 150-grain (no. 3031) Spire Point or 150-grain Sierra spitzer (No. 2130), 150-grain Nosler solid base or even Remington 150-grain softpoint have good potential. All gave excellent accuracy plus good knockdown power. For hotter loads W-296 gave best results using Hornady 130-grain (No. 3020), Sierra 135-grain (No. 7350) or the previously mentioned 150-grain bullets. All gave outstanding accuracy plus lots of energy left for rams at 200 meters."

There's data for 130- and 135-grain bullets, but I listed only the data for the 150-grain bullet, which was the heaviest one tested.

From: CB's in .30 Caliber Pistols, TFS 87-11, Sept. - Oct. 1990
RCBS 309-165 SIL (174-gr) - 16.5 - Reloder 7 - 1497 fps - "seated with the lube groove just outside the case" - heat-treated wheelweight bullet with 2% tin added.

From: Silhouette Load Development Parameters, TFS 96-17, March - April 1992
"I used ammo loaded in this way to fire a 100 yd., four group average of 1.679", with a best group of 1.104" in a CBA Regional Match. Not bad for a cartridge that ain't supposed to shoot! The load was the SAECO #301, cast of heat treated WW + 10% mono @ 200 gr. with 13.4 gr. of H4198, F205M primer and R-P case. The gun was a 10" T/C Contender with a Burris 10x IER scope."

From: Reader Bylines, Handloader #196, Dec. 1998
"The first load was 7.0 grains of 2400 with the 170-grain [Lee] bullet. It would not work the action, and the bullet keyholed on the target. Increasing the powder charge to 7.5 and then 8.0 grains did not improve anything. I then tried the 150-grain [Lee .30-30 flat point] bullet with 8.5 grains of 2400. It was very accurate, worked the action most of the time and did not keyhole on the target. I increased the powder charge to 9.0 grains of 2400. It was still very accurate, worked the action and did not keyhole. [COL 1.657", Win. or CCI SR primer, .309" dia.]"

"I have been shooting this load for about six months. It gives me about 3- to 4-inch, five-shot groups at 100 yards, which is about what factory 110-grain FMJ loads shoot."

From the comments of the various authors, the 20" twist in the Carbine and in early Contender barrels did not work well with heavy (long) bullets while the later 10" twist (as in the .30-'06) does.

JKH: I meant the jump to the rifling if you were using a 7.62x25mm chamber adapter in the .30-'06 (if they even make such a thing). A 200-gr. boolit in the Carbine case would definitely have more reach.

[JKH]

Hey Berdan,

Awesome info! I had in mind 4227 and 4198 and see them both mentioned.

MCA makes a chamber adapter for .30 Luger which is basically the 7.62X25 and by would it have along jump! My bad on the lead question, I miscontrued your statement and assumed you were alluding to the .30carbine, it will still be some pretty healthy free-bore but I will definitely size the boolit to fit the adapter ID as already suggested, my 200 grain LEE puts out boolits at an average of .314" so that may do the job as cast. I also have the LEE flat nosed 150 that I bought to load for a friend who shoots silhouette (sp?) with a vintage Winchester .30-30, that is one sweet boolit! If I get another M1 carbine I will defiitely use the boolit and the loads you provided.

I hope to order the adapter today and if the weather ever breaks here in Western NY I hope to do some testing in a few weeks, we have had tons of snow and teens to singl digit temps since before Christmas, I'm pushing 50 with lots of arhritis and messed up bones, and let me tell ya this weather doesnt make it fun to shoot out doors ;^ )

I am going to exhibit some more of my ignorance, what does IHMSA stand for?

I truly appreciate all the help guys, I've been hanging out on gun boards since the old blue board/DOS days and this truly has been the best site all around, especially the civility and of course the wealth of knowledge that is tremendously diversified.

Jeff

[Mugs]

IHMSA- International Handgun Metallic Silhouette Association
Mugs
IHMSA 5940L

[wch]

www.singleshotrifles.com

[wch]

Be sure to email or call; if Gail answers, don't hesitate, she knows a lot of good stuff.

[JKH]

Hey Guys,

My hairbrained scheme is on a short hiautus, unfortunately the only form of payment MCA Sports takes is checks or money orders & they are located in Alaska, I am told to expect my order roughly 2 weeks from when I mail out payment.

Actually I don't even mind, it reminds me of how it used to be and having to wait for things teaches patience, this is a major problem with our world today as instant gratification is the order of the day! 2 weeks really is nothing compared to the old Sears Roebuck days of yore when folks waited a good 1/2 year to get the items they ordered if the lived in the wilds. So, God is giving me a good lesson albeit small, it can have rather large implications for the future!

I will revisit this thread when I have my ducks in a row & quacking so to speak ;^)

Jeff

[gds]

You know this thought has crossed my mind a lot. I have a Universal M1 Carbine that you can take the gas piston out and put it in backwards in order to turn it into a straight pull single shot. I have wondered if you could shoot the heavier grain boolits at higher pressures and still be safe, since from what I have gathered, because of the way the action on the M1 works you cannt push the pressure limits without risking damage.

[exile]

What does MCA stand for? I have a friend with a 308 handi-rifle I was just talking to about this sort of thing yesterday. He is mildly interested. Thanks.

exile

[leadman]

gds, the 30 carbine has a 1 in 20 twist, so I found 150gr bullets may or may not stabilize. I had a Universal I tried it with also. 130gr bullets shot well.

[JKH]

If memory serves me right it stands for Metallic Chamber Adapter, I spoke a number of times with the man who started the company many moons ago, but this is the best I can recollect, it may be on the present owners site.

The company is MCA Sports, they have quite a broad selection and also make barrel inserts for shotguns in various pistol & rifle calibers that run from roughly 6" long to 18" long, I think they even have .22 Hornet insert that fits .410 shotguns as well as .45-70 in 12 possibly 20 as well.

For .308 & .30-06 they have a really good selection of caibers and also have non-permanent chamber adapters to allow shooting 7.62x39 in either caliber, you install it using non-permanent lok-tite and it can be removed with a stuck case remover and the chamber cleaned out with acetone. I had a similar adapter years ago for the CZ52 rifes that shot 7.62x45, the first time I tried it the adapter ejected after about 5 rounds but I was afraid to use too much lok-tite, after that I poured it on like the directions said and it was still holding tight after a 100 or so rounds, in a bolt gun and adapter like that would probably not come loose even without lok-tite if the parent chamber was tight enough, even if it did it would be simple to reinstall.

I hope to send my order out in a few days and will post pix when I get the adapter a few weeks hence.

Jeff

[Artful]

You know this thought has crossed my mind a lot. I have a Universal M1 Carbine that you can take the gas piston out and put it in backwards in order to turn it into a straight pull single shot. I have wondered if you could shoot the heavier grain boolits at higher pressures and still be safe, since from what I have gathered, because of the way the action on the M1 works you cannt push the pressure limits without risking damage.

on a M1 carbine you have several problems with heavy bullets.

1) the 1:20 twist rate on carbine barrels won't handle much over 130 grain weight bullets http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=65285

2) if you get a fast trist barrel, to keep any powder volume you will need to see the bullet out of the case with a heavy weight bullet, which won't work with the magazine (you could single load but will have to have the correct bullet to do so.

best choice would be a single shot 30 carbine with a fast twist barrel like 1:10 T/C contender barrel

[RU shooter]

Regular plain sub sonic load in the 06 case may just just surprise you in the accuracy department if that is indeed what your after. I will second the notion of going straight case instead of the chamber adapter. I have held the 10 ring for 10 rds. at 200 yds on a SR target shooting 6 grs of Bullseye and a 160 gr plain base bullet. A big case and small powder charge call indeed be accurate. Just more food for thought.

Tim