Smokeless in modern 1874's?

[*Paladin*]

Probably a dumb question in the era of endless lawsuits, but I'm assuming the modern 1874 "Sharps" are ok for use w/ smokeless? When I get around to getitng one, it will likely be loaded w/ BP anyway, but I'd like to option of tinkering w/ smokeless loads as well.

[BruceB]

Kirk Bryan, owner of Shiloh Rifles, has publicly stated that a Shiloh Sharps will endure any load that a Ruger #1 can tolerate. I would say that such a statement is assurance that the Shiloh rifles, at least, are amply strong enough for "smokeless loads".

Of course, it's entirely possible to load "smokeless loads" which yield LESS pressure than most black-powder ammunition, so the question may be more complex than a first glance might suggest.

My Shiloh (now in .45-70) fires mostly smokeless ammunition, and does it in fine style without any dramatics at all.

Naturally, we still have to exercise all our normal cautions, as we do in ANY handloading project. Apart from that, smokeless will work fine in a GOOD-QUALITY 1874-style replica Sharps'.

[Boz330]

The IAB Sharps have "Use Black Powder Only " on their barrels. I would think that Either of the American 74s would be fine and the Pedersoli's. The cheapo's I would be most careful with.

Bob

[Tom-ADC]

My Pedersoli sharps has a C.U.P. limit for smokless forget what it is but probably trapdoor limits but I only shot BP in it.

[bigted]

stay under 25,000 lbs per and all should be cherry. over that and you should really get a #1 to get beat up with or.......have it chambered out to a longer 45 cal chambering and get a pad for your shoulder but these still run best at the 25,000 and under clasifications. carefull tho as the iritation to your bowels will make you do and say some off the wall things. mine started out with a pedrosoli "74" sharps around 3 years ago and now i have 45 cal guns galore. from 45-70 to 45-120's in sharps all the way down to thr ruger #1 in singleshot and leveractions. so proceed with caution here.

[Freightman]

stay under 25,000 lbs per and all should be cherry. over that and you should really get a #1 to get beat up with or.......have it chambered out to a longer 45 cal chambering and get a pad for your shoulder but these still run best at the 25,000 and under clasifications. carefull tho as the iritation to your bowels will make you do and say some off the wall things. mine started out with a pedrosoli "74" sharps around 3 years ago and now i have 45 cal guns galore. from 45-70 to 45-120's in sharps all the way down to thr ruger #1 in singleshot and leveractions. so proceed with caution here.
45's are the easiest to cast for and the 45/70 is even easier than that, you can load .457 round ball and 4-6gr of Unique for a whisper load to shoot in the back yard at a foam target to what did I do that for ouch. Shoot I have no idea how I got along for so long with out my 45/70's.

[doubs43]

I have 4 rifles chambered for 45-70. Three are single shots and one is a Marlin 1895CB. The single shots are an 1874 Pedersoli Sharps, 1875 C. Sharps Business Rifle and an 1885 Miroku Winchester Hi-Wall

I shoot the same smokeless load in all of them: RCBS .45-300-FN gas check boolit (weight with GC is 323 grains) with 3.0 grains of WW-231 (ignitor) and 57.0 grains of WC-860 (surplus 50 caliber ball powder). I started with this same load roughly 20 years ago using AA-8700 until it was no longer available and switched to the WC-860 as a grain-for-grain substitute. It's a compressed load for best ignition of the slow powder and when fired over a chronograph, the avg. deviation was 10 fps.

You can't stuff enough WC-860 in a 45-70 case to give high pressures. The only danger is dropping a double charge of the WW-231. I'm careful not to do that. I get exactly 1600 fps from this load and great accuracy. Primers remain nicely rounded and there are no signs of pressure. Recoil is more a shove than a slap.

I've won numerous local matches with it in all 4 rifles and my load has been copied by many other shooters going back at least 15 years. Not one has had the first problem with the load or their rifles and they've modified it as necessary for heavier bullets.

It works for me but if anyone else uses this load, the usual denials of responsibility apply as I have no control over anyone's loading methods other than my own.

[montana_charlie]

Kirk Bryan, owner of Shiloh Rifles, has publicly stated that a Shiloh Sharps will endure any load that a Ruger #1 can tolerate. I would say that such a statement is assurance that the Shiloh rifles, at least, are amply strong enough for "smokeless loads".
However, if one is going to quote any of what Kirk Bryan says about smokeless in his rifles, he should also quote the rest.

On the Shiloh Rifle website it says, "However, some Sharps shooters shy away from using blackpowder for whatever their reasons. Therefore our rifles that are chambered for cartridges for which modern factory manufactured smokeless powder ammunition is available are warrantied for such ammunition. Those are the 30-40K, .38-55, and .45-70."

Kirk has strong reservations about the suitability of smokeless in any of the 'longer' BP cartridges.
So, while a Shiloh 45/120 might be as strong as a Ruger #1, if you blow it up with smokeless charges Kirk won't feel obligated to replace it.

CM

[Red River Rick]

My 3 year old Pedersoli Sharps Competition (45-90) has "For Black Powder Cartridge Only" engraved right on it.

I'd imagine that any smokeless load that would be suitable to shoot in a Win '86 would be safe to use in any of the modern Sharps replica's.

RRR

[*Paladin*]

Thanks for all the info all! I've been looking at the Uberti and EMF's because they are more in my price range. I'm guessing they would be better suited for use with BP?

[montana_charlie]

The Sharps rifles sold by EMF and Uberti are all made by Pedersoli....a quality gun.
CM

[NickSS]

Pedersoli only warents their 45-70s for use with smokeless powder and they use the max pressure of 27000 psi which is the industry standard for max pressure of factory ammo for that caliber. All their other calibers are warented for Black Powder only as they do not have factory standard pressures with smokeless powder. I believe they are stronger than that but that is all they are tested for in the proof house in Italy. As for the American made ones loading data that I have gotten from C Sharps and Shiloh indicate that their rifles are good for 40,000+ pressures.

[windwalker]

Pedersoli only warents their 45-70s for use with smokeless powder and they use the max pressure of 27000 psi which is the industry standard for max pressure of factory ammo for that caliber. All their other calibers are warented for Black Powder only as they do not have factory standard pressures with smokeless powder. I believe they are stronger than that but that is all they are tested for in the proof house in Italy. As for the American made ones loading data that I have gotten from C Sharps and Shiloh indicate that their rifles are good for 40,000+ pressures.

here is the pedersoli load levels,the industry std sammi is 29007psi cup and that is what pedersoli allow there guns are tested at 30% higher than saami pressures
bernie
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/pedersoli_proof_rules_and_allowable_limits_09-04.htm

[Old Goat Keeper]

I notice that Pedersoli uses the terms "psi" and "cup" interchangeably adn do NOT list which their pressure figures are measured in. Psi and CUP are NOT the same and should NOT be used interchangeably!

Tom



here is the pedersoli load levels,the industry std sammi is 29007psi cup and that is what pedersoli allow there guns are tested at 30% higher than saami pressures
bernie
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/pedersoli_proof_rules_and_allowable_limits_09-04.htm

[DHB]

I use the same smokeless powder in all my 45-70s. 3031 set for book weight with what ever bullet or boolit I might use. There are 3 levels of book strength. Ruger #1 - Marlins, Winchester 1886 - Remington Hepburn , and Trapdoors - Marlin 1881. I rarely shoot bullets in original stuff, but do in new rifles. Hunting loads etc. All with 3031. I've found it to always be accurate.
DHB

[windwalker]

I notice that Pedersoli uses the terms "psi" and "cup" interchangeably adn do NOT list which their pressure figures are measured in. Psi and CUP are NOT the same and should NOT be used interchangeably!

Tom

i have a good friend who is italian his nephew is a technician at the italian national proof house in italy the italians use the bar units method for there proof testing if you multiply the BAR value x 14.5037. the bar value for the 45/70 is 2000 multiply by 14.5037= 29007 psi i dont no why they put cup in there but my friends nephew said that is how it is done to convert bar value to psi.
quoat(PEDERSOLI PROOF TESTING STATEMENT)

All Pedersoli rifles are proof tested at the (Italian government) National Firing Proof House with smokeless powder cartridges with a pressure exceeding that of the ‘commercial’ factory made ammunition by 30 %.

For the .45-70 caliber we normally recommend the use of commercially made ammunition because of it being easily available on the world market. We show here some warnings about C.I.P. rules:

C.I.P WARNING

Our guns are proof tested according to the rules imposed by C.I.P. (International Proof Commission). Proof test pressure is 30% stronger than the maximum pressure of a commercial cartridge (Pmax.) Pmax pressures are measured in BAR units.

The below mentioned data are compared to the Crusher (CUP) and PSI method.

The equivalent maximum pressure value of the commercial cartridges measured according to the English/American P.S.I. and C.U.P. system is obtained by multiplying the BAR value x 14.5037.
the saami std for 45/70 is 28000psi if you take pedersolis 29007psi or 2000 bar and 30% it comes out at 37709.1 psi and that is what all pedersoli cartridge guns are proof tested at.

bernie

[EDG]

Since most shooters do not reload it would be silly to not proof a .45-70 for factory smokeless ammo.
Any rifle made on the same exact action should be able to handle the same case back thrust regardless of propellant used.
If you make a mistake with your handloads expect to suffer the consequences like an adult.

Keep in mind some Sharps do not have a plate protecting the shooter from gas blown past the firing pin. While the action may hold leaking gas can still cause injury.