32 H&R Dangers

[DHB]

I'm new to the site. I've been advised that 3-4 gr Unique or Bullseye is too small a load to be safe...explosion possibility. This load shoot really well in my Marlin. I really like the 32 H&R and now have a rifle built on a Remington Rolling Block #2 action, new barrel. My problem is I can get 95 gr Federal factory wad-cutter loads to shoot well but I get NO grouping (3 feet, 50 yards) with 3 gr unique or 4gr bullseye100-115 gr hard cast. I have not checked the twist, but if a 95 gr will shoot, a 100-115 gr boolit should also, but it doesn't.
Please advise [smilie=b:
DHB

[Boz330]

There are a whole lot of questions here. Twist rate of your barrel to start with. If the 95s shoot OK then that would indicate a pretty slow twist. Then you are taking a longer boolit, and from that load, shooting it fairly slow. It could just be that you need to stoke those boolits up some to get them to stabilize.

Bob

[leftiye]

Powders that fast aren't known for SEE propensity. Nor are they position sensitive usually. Only if they were loaded so light that you got squib loads and stuck a boolit in the barrel would I expect them to be dangerous. I guess you could put such a small amount in that that happened. The answer, load a smidgen hotter??

What barrel is on the gun? What is the twist? As boz said, the heavier boolit might have to go faster before it spins fast enough to stabilize.

[EOD3]

Does it key-hole or just chuck them in the general direction?

What's the diameter if the heavy boolets?

[canyon-ghost]

Try 1.4 grains thru 1.9 grains of Bullseye for 32 mag. I get best groups with 1.4 grains but, it only carries to 50 yards. The 1.9 grain load carries to 100 yards.

Two different 32 mags, TC Contender and H&R revolver.

Ron

[405]

Agree with the others. Twist rate may or may not be a factor? Those fast powders are not known for SEE so the only potential problem would be a stuck bullet in the bore.

I don't know the type of bullet you're shooting but even the 115gr 32s like the Lyman 311008 or 311316 don't carry a lot of lube for long barreled single shots- but those are about the best choices. Also, without increasing the charge (and peak pressure) with the faster powders, you might try increasing the velocity with one of the slower powders like 2400 or even Rel #7. That will run the velocity up to see if it will increase the spin hence accuracy... if that is the problem with the heavier bullet. Somewhat related is the possibility that the faster powders may over-accelerate the heavier bullet causing it to strip the lands when it first hits the bore.

The best 32-20 loads (only comparable 32s I shoot)---

76gr RN and 100gr SWC 32 PB bullets out of a 4 3/4" Colt with a fast powder like Trailboss.

Lyman 311316 bullet out of a 20" carbine with medium load of 2400.

Lyman 311316 bullet out of a 24" rifle with about 12-13 gr of Rel #7.

These combinations seem to provide the best accuracy for me for each gun type. Just have to do some experimenting to see what works best in that barrel.

[DHB]

I'll try to answer all the questions as I remember them. The boolits tumble at 50 yards. Twist is 1 in 18, my Marlin is 1 in 16. I do not know what "SEE propensity" is. I suspect it has to do with the "explosion" problem. My main concern is the strength of the RB #2 action. If I increase powder I increase CUP. I figure the barrel is of newer manufacture, but I don't know for sure. I figure it's a take-off barrel. There is a capitol W, a capitol M, and what appears to be an O with a small star-burst around it. I checked European proof marks and saw nothing like what's on the bottom of the barrel. Any other questions, I will answer them, and THANKS for the help.
DHB[smilie=f:

[excess650]

I'm looking at Speer #11 and with a 100gr jacketed, 3.5-4.0 Bullseye and 4.5-5.0 are the listed loads from a H&R revolver. With a 98gr HBWC they list 2.1-2.3gr Bullseye and 2.8-3.0 Unique. The reason these (HBWC) are so light is so the skirts aren't blown off the HBWCs.

As to your loads being too light ( and causing SEE), I say BS! The case capacity is too small for those loads to be problematic. 3gr Bullsye would be a pretty normal 38 Spl load, and it has considerably larger case capacity.

Likewise, I don't think the twist is the problem. Normal twist for a 32-20 is 1-20"in older firearms, and they handled the 311008 (118gr)just fine.

More than likely you have a groove diameter incompatibility with your hardcast. The skirt of the HBWC expands to take the rifling, but the hardcast are too small in diameter, and too hard to obturate at the low chamber pressures generated by the 32 H&R Mag. Saami spec is similar pressure to a +P 38Spl, so really low comapred to a 357 Mag or 44 Mag. Undersize bullets will keyhole.

Have you slugged the barrel? If the diameter at the muzzle is larger than at the breech, it won't group worth a hoot.

[peerlesscowboy]

Experience I had working up 32 H&R Mag loads in a S&W mod 16-4 was that with the 100gr RCBS and 115gr Ly, accuracy at lower velocities was mediocre and the faster I drove 'em the more the groups tightened up. Try 10gr H110.

John C. Saubak

[405]

DHB,
18" twist will stabilize the 115 no problem. By all means slug the bore. If your groove diameter is larger than the bullet there is no hope for accuracy. I keep forgetting that everyone doesn't automatically slug their bore before using cast bullets. Try a Lyman 311316 GC bullet sized to groove diameter up to about .001" larger than groove diameter over about 12 gr of Rel 7 OR 6.5 gr 2400 and see what happens. :) Cast Performance sells a 311316 bullet (or clone) at .313" for reasonable enough $ that it would be worth the while to try it if your groove diameter is in the .311-.313" range. I don't know where you are looking for load data for that cartridge but being stuck on the really fast powders like Bullseye makes me think you are working off of primarily handgun data.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=237109

[Dave B]

The RCBS 90 gr with 4gr Unique shoots very well in my Marlin 32mag. I size them to .314. AA#7 @ 5.9gr works good too.

[DHB]

I've got various loading manuals, 6-8, Ken Waters book, plus the Complete Reloading Manuel for the .32 H&R Mag. I've also pulled stuff off of the internet. I have found nothing to differentiate between pistol and rifle loads. I slugged the last 4-6 inches of the bore and got the same as I did slugging the entire bore with no "hard" spots .3125-.313. I will also try 2400 at 7.2 gr with a 115 gr boolit. It'll be a week before I can get to the range. Thanks again I really appreciate the help.
DHB

[405]

DHB,
Most of the time when you see data that shows primarily plain base bullets and the very fast powders in small quantities it is usually referring to handgun loads/short barrel lengths. It may be that little or no such "rifle" data exists for the 32 HR- dunno? Your groove diameter sounds like a good match for the common .313 bullet diameter. Both my 20" 92 carbine and 24" 73 rifle have 24" twist bores so your 18" twist is plenty for the 115 gr bullet. [that faster twist tells me instinctively that the long barrel/faster twist/heavier bullet combo may do better with a slightly slower powder]. The last time I shot my 73 Win 24" rifle in 32-20 it shot a .67" 5 shot group at 50 yards. The load was Rem small pistol primer, R-P case, .313 sized Lym 311316 GC bullet, 12 gr Rel # 7, light roll crimp into crimp groove. That rifle's bore has a groove diameter of .312". The little 20" Win 92 carbine in 32-20 won't do quite as well at 50 yards but shoots consistent 1.5" groups with the same bullet with about 7 gr 2400. Bottom line- Experimentation/best loads with any one gun is unique to that gun.

If you can't find "Rifle" data for the 32 HR then try 32-20 data reduced by 10-15%. Your key-holing 115s sounds oddly like the problems often seen when shooting undersized, plain base bullets in the older Winchester 38-55s. The cure: use as large a bullet as will chamber with enough room for clean bullet release out of neck AND use gas check.

[leadman]

What size are the hard cast bullets you are trying to shoot??

[NoZombies]

My rifle's favorite loads, though in the slightly shorter .32 S&W long case, are with 1.5 grains of tight-group and any bullet weight.

I don't know why that is, but I find that it likes that charge the best. My handguns seem to like a slightly heavier load a little bit better, but I'm working to standardize a load, so for now, I'm sticking with the 1.5 of tight-group.

One thing I found was that I need to use better lube for the rifle than I do for the pistol, though experiments with JPW have been promising.

[Larry Gibson]

I would say the problem is the twist. 16" twist and they shoot fine, 18" twist and they don't shoot. The lighter weight work fine in both twists, the heavier don't work in the slow tist. The heavier bullets are obviously not being driven fast enough to maintain stability. Thry pushing them faster with 4 -4.5 gr of Unique.

The .32 H&R has too small a case capacity for SEE to be a problem. Also the small amounts of BE used with this cartridge will not produce enough psi. In an SEE (Secondary Explosion Effect) the powder does not "explode", the gun does from excessive psi caused by the bullet becoming a bore obstruction. Happens with reduced loads of relatively slow burning powder in large capacity cases that may have a very low expansion ration. The .32 H&R with Bullseye or any other powder does not fit any of the criteria. "Detonation" is an unproven theory. Small charges of Bullseye in .38 Specials were thought to "detonate" but that was disproven many years ago in the '70s. Problem stemmed from double and most often tripple charges of powder, specifically when loaded in older CH progressive loaders. Don't wory about it in your .32 H&R.

Larry Gibson

[Don McDowell]

From your bore measurements, it looks like you need bullets at least .314 diameter.

I don't shoot the 32 in a rifle, but the two powders that work exceptionally well in the Ruger baby vaqueros are trailboss for mild plinkers, and bludot for when you want to reach out and swat something pretty hard.

[NoZombies]

I have heard good things about the blue-dot loads as well, though never tried them in my guns.

[Don McDowell]

The top end bludot loads got a lot of fps going for them out of the little ruger. I suspect from a rifle they'ld be 32wcf equivilent..

[DHB]

What size are the hard cast bullets you are trying to shoot??
Answer .312 or .313.
Guys please don't forget I'm shooting a Remington Rolling Block #2. They were originally made in .44-44, .38-40, .32-20 and other center fire calibers. I've been warned not to go too hot in a #2. Is all of the above still safe in a #2? I'll try 7 gr 2400 when I can get to the range next week. Please continue to advise.
Thanks so much.:veryconfu
DHB

[Don McDowell]

The 32 H&R was designed and built around the topbreak H&R revolvers, not exactly the strongest things in the world.
Stick with published data you you should be fine.
Of course there's no accounting for what sort of fatique that remington action has been subjected to before it caught that 32 barrel, so you pull the trigger on it everytime at your own disgrestion.

[405]

DHB,
Went to the range today with chrono for testing another gun. Took the Win 73 32-20 and a round to get velocity. Here's the data- do with it as you wish. Also, my instinct is that if you're trying to to get to higher velocity with one of the super fast pistol powders in the 32 HR case you'll likely have a higher potential to get high pressure spike excursions than by using one of slightly slower powders like 2400 or Rel # 7. My Win 73 32-20 is an original blackpowder gun DOM 1884 so I load using data that indicates MINIMUM pressure. The Lyman data indicates Rel # 7 as producing the lowest pressures in the 32-20 with the 115 gr Lyman bullet while producing the better velocities. Lyman data also shows that in a 14" barrel, 12.4 gr of Rel # 7 under the Lyman 311008 (the cousin to the 311316 w/o GC) yields 1038 fps MV with a pressure of CUP 6,700 (well within BP pressure ranges).

My Win 73 has a groove diameter of .312", barrel length is 24" with the standard twist of 24"

The load is:
Lyman 311316 sized to .312" with BHN of 14
R-P case
R-P small pistol primer
11.5 gr Rel # 7- no filler
light roll crimp in crimp groove
chronographed velocity 15' from muzzle 1220 fps

This gun/load combination consistently produces 50 yard circular cluster groups of less than 1" with open sights and all bullet holes in target show perfect stability with no yawing from muzzle out to 100 yds.

Picture is of test target today for the single chronographed shot

[Mk42gunner]

Answer .312 or .313.
Guys please don't forget I'm shooting a Remington Rolling Block #2. They were originally made in .44-44, .38-40, .32-20 and other center fire calibers. I've been warned not to go too hot in a #2. Is all of the above still safe in a #2? I'll try 7 gr 2400 when I can get to the range next week. Please continue to advise.
Thanks so much.:veryconfu
DHB

I also have a No 2 in .32 Rimfire. The action, while larger than a #4; still isn't all that big.

Just becuase they made it in .32-20, .38-40 and .44-40 in the 19th century does not mean that it is safe for maximum loads these days.

In reading Frank DeHass' book "Single Shot Rifles and Actions" He didn't recommend rechambering the .32's to .32-20. The way I read it, he did not think they were up to the High Velocity loads that were common then.

This has kept me from rechambering mine to .32 H&R because there are a lot of loads that while safe in the Ruger and S&W revolvers, are too high pressure for the H&R revolvers or weaker single shot rifles.

This is a long winded way of saying that if you keep the loads to what is safe in the H&R revolvers, you will probably be safe with your Remington. But no guarantees.

Robert

[wills]

I also have a No 2 in .32 Rimfire. The action, while larger than a #4; still isn't all that big.


This has kept me from rechambering mine to .32 H&R because there are a lot of loads that while safe in the Ruger and S&W revolvers, are too high pressure for the H&R revolvers or weaker single shot rifles.

This is a long winded way of saying that if you keep the loads to what is safe in the H&R revolvers, you will probably be safe with your Remington. But no guarantees.

Robert

Can you find .32 RF? I thought Old West Scrounger/Navy Arms had it, but the supply seems to have dried up.

[wills]

There is an article on the 32 H&R and .327 Mag. in the current/February 2011 issue of Handloader, in which Brian Pierce writes “the .32 magnum factory load was held to 21,000 CUP,…”

[Mk42gunner]

Can you find .32 RF? I thought Old West Scrounger/Navy Arms had it, but the supply seems to have dried up.

The last box that I bought was from the newest lot of Navy Arms made by CBC in Brazil. There is usually someone selling it at gunshows. I paid $35.00 for a box a few years ago; save your money, it is crapola. Split cases are very common.

I have a centerfire breechblock and shoot .32 Short Colts, if I am just messing around at home I have shot some of Molly's separate loaded rounds. I wish I had bought the last two boxes of.32 Long Colt that I saw.

When I get tired of playing with the outside lubed Colt cases I will probably rechamber it to .32 S&W Long, maybe the H&R.

Robert

[wills]

I was following a breechblock on e bay, with the thought of having it converted to centerfire. When it got to $90, I quit.

[DHB]

Thanks so much for the help. I'm going to try and find some new brass here locally. If I can't find it I'll get some Starline as they make good brass. I don't know that I'll be able to get to the range today but I'd like to. I'm going to start out with 7-7.2 gr 2400 and go from there. I don't have Reloader #7 but I'll get some if the 2400 does not work. I may just go ahead and get some #7 as 6700 CUP looks very, very good. I thought 32 H&R was hotter than 21000 CUP. I was thinking it was up somewhere around 32,000. Which made me concerned about pressure. You might also check "The Single Shot Exchange" for 32 rim. You can either scan the magazine or call Brett Boyd, (803) 628-5326, as he may know where some is. I'll keep you'll informed.
Thanks
DHB

[405]

DHB,

FYI
I just got back from the range. I took my Win 92 carbine, 24" twist, 32-20. I had some loads of 6 gr. 2400 under the 115 gr Lyman 311316 GC. The velocity 15' in front of muzzle was 850 fps. All the bullet holes in target showed perfect stability and no yawing. Group was nice circular cluster at 1.5"..... which is about as good as the little carbine will do.

I'd think that even with the slightly less case capacity of the 32 HR, the pressures with these loads will be well within the capability of the RB action. I wouldn't doubt the 6 gr 2400 load with the 115 gr bullet in the 32-20 is also low pressure something less than 10,000 CUP. Lyman lists a 6.6 gr 2400 load with the 115 gr bullet in the 32-20 at 10,900 CUP. Still way below what the specs for the 32 HR was rated by SAAMI and the capability of the RB.

[DHB]

I'm loading to go the range right now. I'll drop to 6 gr 2400 with a .313 boolit, no GC. I also bought some Rel #7 and will load up several to test with 11.0 gr #7 and same boolit.
Thanks
DHB
I dropped the load of #7 to 10 gr because in my cases 11 gr would be a compressed load. At 10 gr the case is pretty full.
D

[405]

Hope the loads work well and at least stabilize the bullets. There is no reason that your 18" twist bore won't do it, given that both my 24" twist bores do. If they are stabilized but your accuracy is still not up to expectations you really should try the gas checked version- Either the Lyman 311316 or the commercial Cast Performance 115 gr GC available from Midway. The Cast Performance bullet is not the Lyman 311316, it is an LBT type, but is very close. Both 115 gr bullets do equally well in my 32-20s. I've tried the Cast Performance ones that are listed as .313" diameter but the lot that I tried are in fact closer to .314". Good luck

[DHB]

I still got some key holes, but most were in a 8 1/2 X 11 target. I'm going to try the GC boolits. While waiting for them I will try a little more 2400, maybe 6.4 gr as there was room for it in the case. I'll try a little more Rel #7 also.
Thanks again!
DHB

[405]

Some of these things are tough nuts to crack. It almost becomes a challenge to see it through to a reasonable conclusion. The effort may seem frustrating but still worth it considering the alternative-- having to re-barrel or re-chamber and starting over :(

A few things to consider:

Make sure the bore is clean of all fouling, carbon, lead, copper or whatever before trying new loads.

Try seating bullet out farther so the front drive band contacts the rifling when chambered. This will help align bullet, may help powder burn/pressure efficiency and will increase effective case volume (since the HR case is somewhat volume limited).

Try with a light roll crimp. Try without any crimp.

I've shot two different 115 gr GC bullets out of the two 32-20 long guns. The Lyman 311316 GC at about BHN 13-14 and the Cast Performance LBT style at about 20 BHN- both yield similar results. So similar that I can't tell any difference on the chrono or the target.

I've also tried a couple of 90-100 gr PLAIN BASE bullets sized to .313" out of both the carbine and the rifle with the same powders and loads. While I didn't get any instability or keyholing, the accuracy was TERRIBLE and got quite a bit of leading. Conversely, absolutely the BEST performance of any bullet out of my 32-20 Colt, 4 3/4" SAA is using the 100 gr plain base over about 2.2 gr Trailboss (a fast pistol powder).

Keep posting results

[NHlever]

DHB,
Went to the range today with chrono for testing another gun. Took the Win 73 32-20 and a round to get velocity. Here's the data- do with it as you wish. Also, my instinct is that if you're trying to to get to higher velocity with one of the super fast pistol powders in the 32 HR case you'll likely have a higher potential to get high pressure spike excursions than by using one of slightly slower powders like 2400 or Rel # 7. My Win 73 32-20 is an original blackpowder gun DOM 1884 so I load using data that indicates MINIMUM pressure. The Lyman data indicates Rel # 7 as producing the lowest pressures in the 32-20 with the 115 gr Lyman bullet while producing the better velocities. Lyman data also shows that in a 14" barrel, 12.4 gr of Rel # 7 under the Lyman 311008 (the cousin to the 311316 w/o GC) yields 1038 fps MV with a pressure of CUP 6,700 (well within BP pressure ranges).

My Win 73 has a groove diameter of .312", barrel length is 24" with the standard twist of 24"

The load is:
Lyman 311316 sized to .312" with BHN of 14
R-P case
R-P small pistol primer
11.5 gr Rel # 7- no filler
light roll crimp in crimp groove
chronographed velocity 15' from muzzle 1220 fps

This gun/load combination consistently produces 50 yard circular cluster groups of less than 1" with open sights and all bullet holes in target show perfect stability with no yawing from muzzle out to 100 yds.

Picture is of test target today for the single chronographed shot

With a group like that, I wouldn't dare shoot again either........ :D Looks like excellent stability to me too.

[405]

:) That thing is 127 yrs old and it surprises me everytime I shoot it but it does have an excellent bore. Not every lever gun acts that way, good bore or not. From my experience over 50% don't... and that includes brand new ones. The only consistent, what most would call really accurate, type levers I've ever been around were the Marlin 336 30-30s with MG bores and shooting jbullets. Seems like ever one shoots REALLY well with the factory type, jbullet loads. And I don't own one now :(

Also, seems like most lever guns act kinda like 3 tuning forks randomly spot welded together.... you never know what "tune" will come out.

[DHB]

[smilie=w:It's now 7 months later and I have my answers. Thanks to everyone that helped. I tried various powders and boolits. I finally settled on a 115 grain lubed, as cast sized to .314 using 5.4 gr. 2400. At 50 yards I'm getting roughly 1 inch groups. I've tried boolits at .313 and they did not group well at all. A buddy cast those 115 for me and he has now moved from Texas to Wisconsin. I will find as cast in the .315-.316 range somewhere, and continue on. I do have another question though. It will take 1/2/3 rounds before the group closes, either from a clean barrel or from a wiped barrel. Is this normal? I've taken that load to the range 3 separate times and gotten good results every time. Another good load is 100 gr lubed as cast sized to .314 with 5.6 gr 2400. Not as good at the 115 gr but the next best.
Thanks so much for all the help.
DHB

[montana_charlie]

My problem is I can get 95 gr Federal factory wad-cutter loads to shoot well but I get NO grouping (3 feet, 50 yards) with 3 gr unique or 4gr bullseye100-115 gr hard cast.
What makes you think you should be using hard cast with a light powder charge?
CM

[NoZombies]

2-3 rounds until getting accuracy might mean you're a little lean on the lube. It might not mean that, but it's what I've found with similar occurrences.

[leadman]

I have a couple guns that also need a few shots to settle down. I just don't clean them as often now and everything is good.
I have also found that when using LBT Blue Soft for lube this happens more frequently.

[Tatume]

I too have found when using LBT Blue Soft lube that cleaning is needed less frequently. It is wonderful stuff, the best.

[DHB]

What makes you think you should be using hard cast with a light powder charge?
CM
The reason I was using a light powder charge is the factory (light powder charge) shot so much better than my hand loads, so I lightened up the charge and finally got good grouping. I was not looking for power but accuracy. Also the loads of Unique and Bullseye shot well in other 32 H&R rifles
Thanks for the help
DHB

[Bret4207]

I think what Charley is getting at is why use "hardcast"? Don't limit yourself to "hard" boolits. Softer often works as well or better in the lighter loads, especially if your boolits are challenged a bit in the diameter area.

[DHB]

NO OFFENCE INTENDED TO CHARLIE!!!!!!!
The real reason is: I hate to cast boolits. I know I should not say that on this site. I've cast on and off for 20-25 years, and I really like CBs, but I really hate to do it now. Maybe because I'm older and business requires too much time. It's been a couple of years since I've cast anything. I still have the stuff and am going to keep it but I just hate to cast. So I order boolits. I do not know where I might order softer boolits. That's the plain truth.
:oops::dung_hits_fan:
May the Silver Flow forgive me.
DHB

[MtGun44]

Sounds like undersize boolits, too hard to slug up. Bigger and softer.

Check with Bull Shop, Dan can probably provide exactly what you need. And - you
may develop a long term relationship, given your aversion to casting while liking
shooting boolits.

Bill

[Outpost75]

In my .32 H&R single shot with 16" twist my most accurate and overall satisfactory small game load uses the Saeco #322, 120-grain flat-nosed bullet, cast of 1:30 tin:lead, loaded as-cast and unsized at .315" diameter, lightly lubricated with Lee Liquid Alox and 2 grains of Bullseye, for 840 fps from a 26" barrel. Velocity is 720 fps from my Ruger Single Six 4-5/8". Accurate, deep penetrating, and you can eat right up to the bullet hole.

[Fishman]

While this is an old thread, it is timely for me. I just got a NOE 115 gr .315 mould in the mail. Anyone reading this who has a need for one should watch the NOE website for when Swede puts up the extras for sale.