Ruger SBH Forcing Cones Cracking

[BackWoods Billy]

I wanted to ask a question about SBHs and the forcing cones cracking. I just bought a 5 5/8 new and the cone cracked with in 90 days.(the store took care of it) To make a long story short my stainless 7.5 SBH forcing cone cracked today. What's up with that ??? I'm not shotting that hot of loads and my lead is hard. I alway thought SBHs where strong guns.

[nicholst55]

I've never heard of a problem involving Ruger forcing cones cracking. Can you give us details on your load(s)?

[kelbro]

Man, talk about bad luck! I have not heard of a forcing cone crack on an SBH.

What vintage are your pistols?

[BackWoods Billy]

Well today I was testing the Lee 310 gr. Using H110. 19+20 grs. Water quenched.WW. (just got the mold and wanted to try it out) What I shot in it before today where Lyman 429421 Heat treated to 18 BHN in the oven. The most I've put in them where 21.5 grs. 2400. Most of the time I'm shooting about 17-20 grns.2400.Sized @ .430
URL=http://img87.imageshack.us/i/crackcone.jpg/]http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7807/crackcone.jpg[/URL]

[Frank46]

I'd send it back to ruger. Two revolvers with cracked forcing cones to the same person sounds like it could be a mettalurgy problem. Frank

[BackWoods Billy]

Thanks Frank..Had to look up that word."Metallurgy"LOL.. Thought it was some kind of mental problem...I'll tell ya.It's to a point where I don't even want to shoot hunting loads out of them and what really sucks is I put a lot of work into that barrel.
I'm going to call Ruger in the morning and see what they have to say..Bet I have to pay for the shipping.Hope not the barrel too.

[Shooter6br]

Have a Blackhawk SS 327 Fedwral like your scopr mount What brand is it?:bigsmyl2:

[BackWoods Billy]

Have a Blackhawk SS 327 Fedwral like your scopr mount What brand is it?:bigsmyl2:

Scope mount is a Leupold.

http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-shooting/products/mounting-systems-and-accessories/mounting-systems/dual-dovetail-mounts/

Here's a pic of the cone. *** !!!!!
URL=http://img831.imageshack.us/i/forcingcone.jpg/]http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/8952/forcingcone.jpg[/URL]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Steelbanger]

I had that happen to a blue Super Blackhawk. I had thousands of rounds fired through the barrel, 21 gr-2400 and the 250 K cast bullet, and Ruger cleaned up the eroded forcing cone and I believe turned back the barrel. And no charge for the repair.

I traded that Super away and always watch forcing cones after that experience. And that Super is the one I wish I would have kept.

[leftiye]

You can see where the upper right section has other cracks too. It looks to me like that part of the barrel is muy hot. I would probly call that some kind of flame cutting, or erosion, though that determination maybe can't be done from only seeing a picture. But to me it looks like that part of the barrel stub is being burned off. Is there a larger barrel/cylinder gap in that area?

[Bass Ackward]

I have had two crack over the years. Both cracks occurred almost top dead center.

One gun was rebuilt into a line bore. The other was scrapped. These had many thousands of rounds (like 45k + with each) with one load, 240-250 bullet with 23.5 grains of 296.

I believe that erosion weakened the end of the barrel until it just split from that pressure. That's why it is best to set one back and clean it up.

[felix]

Maybe these barrels have had too much heat treatment before being installed. 4140 is hard for a barrel, meaning the carbon content is right on up there for the most part. Additional nitriding the barrel will just add to the hardness. It seems they would take care of the situation free of charge to maintain their mean-and-tough gun reputation. ... felix

[targetshootr]

I bought an old 44 flat top that looked like that. Ruger fixed it and reblued it for free. Also threw in a higher front sight.

[RobS]

OUCH!!! There has to be something up with what is going on at Ruger as your loads are not out or reach I've noted that rugers forcing cones are cut more narrow these days (the mouth is smaller in diameter), maybe for improved jacketed performance/accuracy, which may increase forcing cone erosion as the larger cast boolits and powder chew away at a smaller hole...........maybe. After only 90 days of use, how many rounds do those guns have in them.

[white eagle]

are or is this the same gun you had on that other forum ?
didn't you over charge that one ?
may be wrong .......may have been some one else

[BackWoods Billy]

The first SBH was a new blued 5 5/8 and I had it for about 60 days. I was pushing straight WW with 22g of 2400 in a 255 SWC.. I think the bullet obturated to much.They sure shot good.LOL. Ruger fixed it. Since then I heat treat them if I'm going to push them hard. This gun I bought used and fixed it up.It's a shooter..Looked pretty new when I got it. I put about 100 rounds through it a week and I have had it for about 5 months. Call Ruger today and there going to send me a mailing label..Let's cross are figures that they fix it for free.

[white eagle]

their pretty good about that sort of thing
hope so

[BackWoods Billy]

are or is this the same gun you had on that other forum ?
didn't you over charge that one ?
may be wrong .......may have been some one else

I did ask about that 5 5/8 SBH on one of the other forum about 6-7 months ago.I could not understand why the cone would crack with the load I was using. 22g.2400 is hot, but not that hot. I was using them for the main diet.Stopped doing that and like I said,I heat treat them if I do..

[MtGun44]

Ovulated? That means to make an egg, past tense. Do you mean too far
out of round (oval)?

Looks like severe gas erosion, maybe soft steel?

Bill

[hickstick_10]

Well today I was testing the Lee 310 gr. Using H110. 19+20 grs. Water quenched.WW. (just got the mold and wanted to try it out) What I shot in it before today where Lyman 429421 Heat treated to 18 BHN in the oven. The most I've put in them where 21.5 grs. 2400. Most of the time I'm shooting about 17-20 grns.2400.Sized @ .430


what manual are you getting the load data from?

Lyman manual max load for that bullet (429421) is 20.6 grains of 2400

A lyman 300 grain cast (not a lee bullet mind you) max 18.5 grains of H110.

[btroj]

Ovulated? That means to make an egg, past tense. Do you mean too far
out of round (oval)?

Looks like severe gas erosion, maybe soft steel?

Bill

Well, if they are oval then someone certainly laid an egg.

Great photo, I have heard about forcing cones cracking but have never seen one. That would certainly irritate me to have happen.

[RobS]

I believe he ment obturation fellas.

[BackWoods Billy]

what manual are you getting the load data from?

Lyman manual max load for that bullet (429421) is 20.6 grains of 2400

A lyman 300 grain cast (not a lee bullet mind you) max 18.5 grains of H110.

There is load data all over the web.Classic Elmer Keith 44 Magnum load was 22grains of 2400. They say the powder is not the same today,but the guns are stronger. (he was using a S+W not a Ruger)There are a lot of info out there. Here is one source and there are many more..
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44%20Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun
The main thing is to start low. Be safe. Use a strong gun. This is just my opinion.
.

[BackWoods Billy]

i believe he ment obturation fellas.

yep....lol Thanks I'll change it...

[jblee10]

Hodgdon web data list 22grs of H110 behind a 325gr BTB LFN GC. Maybe those small yellow partially burned grains of powder I see in the photo are scratching the forcing cone and accellerating erosion. Try another powder and only run H110 for full power and look for those yellow grains. I had to quit using H110 in an AR15 450 Bushmaster because those yellow grains would keep the next round from chambering. Would actually seize the round about 7/8 of the way into the chamber and tie the gun up. I went with a different powder but I always wondered if increasing the charge would have cleaned up the burn.

[hickstick_10]

There is load data all over the web.Classic Elmer Keith 44 Magnum load was 22grains of 2400. They say the powder is not the same today,but the guns are stronger. (he was using a S+W not a Ruger)There are a lot of info out there. Here is one source and there are many more..
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44%20Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun
The main thing is to start low. Be safe. Use a strong gun. This is just my opinion.
.

So no manual or published source for the load............? :holysheep, guess you know what the maximum for that revolver is now I suppose, just like how Elmer did it ;)

Maximum listed on your source was 20 grains of 2400. When you get the gun repaired, try backing down on the load. And buy a manual if you dont have one.

This is why I dont buy used ruger blackhawks or super blackhawks.

[RobS]

hickstick 10:

Read on down to the 250 grain info.

Also Hodgdon on the H110 and a 325 grain Cast GC bullet goes to 20 grain min / 22 grains Max

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

[BackWoods Billy]

hickstick. Thanks..22.0 gr 2400 1,371 fps 1.720" WLP Admin ...you must of missed this one and another @ 21.5 gr. I do thank you for your post..I'm working up a good pig killer now a days. A good accurate load @ about 1,150 fps with the Lee 310 gr. 19gr.H110 is a very accurate load with mild recoil @ 1,225 fps. I'm over them real hot loads...

[rugerdude]

Looking back at the picture, those smaller cuts in the forcing cone and that line across the topstrap look like flame cutting.

What is the barrel/cylinder gap on that gun? You may have an excessive gap and too much gas from those hot loads is getting out.

Of course, it may just be the loads are a bit too hot. If I recall correctly, Ruger and Dan Wesson both had trouble with flame cutting in their .357 Maximum models. Turned out that owners were trying to push light 125 grainers out as fast as possible and flame cutting was the result. When the loads were kept in spec and especially when heavier bullets were used, the flame cutting stopped.

[RobS]

Looking back at the picture, those smaller cuts in the forcing cone and that line across the topstrap look like flame cutting.

What is the barrel/cylinder gap on that gun? You may have an excessive gap and too much gas from those hot loads is getting out.

Of course, it may just be the loads are a bit too hot. If I recall correctly, Ruger and Dan Wesson both had trouble with flame cutting in their .357 Maximum models. Turned out that owners were trying to push light 125 grainers out as fast as possible and flame cutting was the result. When the loads were kept in spec and especially when heavier bullets were used, the flame cutting stopped.

Very good point on the lighter boolit at high pressures and the reason why I won't push 300 grain boolits from my Casull with a heaping amount of H110 as the timing is off and high pressures rise just as the base of the boolit clears the cylinder gap creating a sand blaster effect to the forcing cone and top strap. However with a 340 grain boolit this doesn't happen.

[BackWoods Billy]

Looking back at the picture, those smaller cuts in the forcing cone and that line across the topstrap look like flame cutting.

What is the barrel/cylinder gap on that gun? You may have an excessive gap and too much gas from those hot loads is getting out.

Of course, it may just be the loads are a bit too hot. If I recall correctly, Ruger and Dan Wesson both had trouble with flame cutting in their .357 Maximum models. Turned out that owners were trying to push light 125 grainers out as fast as possible and flame cutting was the result. When the loads were kept in spec and especially when heavier bullets were used, the flame cutting stopped.


The gap was real tight.Hope the gun comes back that tight..I have to say that I just went through my 1st pound of H110. Don't know if H110 has anything to do with it but I never saw any cracking before I started using it. Just went back and looked at the pic again and it does look like the strap is starting to cut..

[jwp475]

H-110/296 is my powder of choice for top end loads and has been since 1986

[Lloyd Smale]

the old security sixes were known for it but ive only seen one or two blackhawks that have done it over the years.

[44man]

The gap was real tight.Hope the gun comes back that tight..I have to say that I just went through my 1st pound of H110. Don't know if H110 has anything to do with it but I never saw any cracking before I started using it. Just went back and looked at the pic again and it does look like the strap is starting to cut..
I have been going to ask about that. My opinion is a gap too tight will have much more HIGH pressure escaping.
296 and H110 are not the reason and neither are the hotter loads.
Now another question for all to consider.
Lack of case tension, primer pressure boolit jump into the cone as the powder gets up to speed and a "gas dump" behind the boolit. Aggravated by a tight gap that speeds up the gas escape like making a water hose get smaller by closing the nozzle a little.
Here is a cone from my gun that has been shot thousands and thousands of times with heavy 296 loads. My cheap camera makes all edges look rough but they are not.
Also a tight patch pushed through the bore dry, no lead after a year of shooting.

[44man]

Of course, it may just be the loads are a bit too hot. If I recall correctly, Ruger and Dan Wesson both had trouble with flame cutting in their .357 Maximum models. Turned out that owners were trying to push light 125 grainers out as fast as possible and flame cutting was the result. When the loads were kept in spec and especially when heavier bullets were used, the flame cutting stopped.
Not really so. I owned one and shot 200 gr bullets with 4227 only and had the gas cutting. It only goes so deep and stops.
My guess was too small a gap and the top of the gap too close to the frame along with a high pressure cartridge.
I never shot hot loads, just the most accurate for IHMSA. But there is was, a gas hose! [smilie=l:

[Moonie]

Looking back at the picture, those smaller cuts in the forcing cone and that line across the topstrap look like flame cutting.

What is the barrel/cylinder gap on that gun? You may have an excessive gap and too much gas from those hot loads is getting out.

Of course, it may just be the loads are a bit too hot. If I recall correctly, Ruger and Dan Wesson both had trouble with flame cutting in their .357 Maximum models. Turned out that owners were trying to push light 125 grainers out as fast as possible and flame cutting was the result. When the loads were kept in spec and especially when heavier bullets were used, the flame cutting stopped.

As far as I know only the Ruger 357 maximum revolvers had excessive flame cutting issues, this was due to the investment cast frames. The Dan Wessons did not, Ruger discontinued the maximum revolver about the time Dan Wesson began producing them.

[44man]

As far as I know only the Ruger 357 maximum revolvers had excessive flame cutting issues, this was due to the investment cast frames. The Dan Wessons did not, Ruger discontinued the maximum revolver about the time Dan Wesson began producing them.
Dan Wesson also used cast frames. And they were rough as a cob inside. I had one in .357 max too but can't remember if the space was more from the barrel to the frame.

[smkummer]

If you are firing several rounds without letting the gun/barrel cool down it would also lead to the problem of cracked forcing cones. The barrel in question looks like it got really hot-kind of like reading spark plugs. That area gets the hottest and longer burning powders help the forcing cone get hotter than quicker burning powders. That is why I have switched to Unique and SR7625 for slightly reduced loads out of my .357 and 44 magnum revolvers now especially with lead bullets.

I was loading a max load of blue dot with a 125 grain bullet in the Colt Lawman 357 ( Alliant now does not recommend blue dot/125/357 loading) and shooting about 100 rounds with little time between reloads. They were warm alright (and it was hot outside as well) and when I got home noticed the forcing cone cracked in 2 places and also too much of a crack for a barrel turn back. I had fired this load before in other guns and I am guessing that the forcing cone got too hot and weak so then it cracked.

Update: You guys made me go down stairs and look at my beloved Ruger SBH that I bought new in 1975. I had fired about 50 rounds of 21/2400 and the Keith bullet about 6 months ago and noticed that I do have some flame cutting on the forcing cone but no cracks so far. The forcing cone is leaded up though so I'll use the lead remover tool to clean it well.

We all need to use alliants latest recommendation and do we really need to shoot the absolute maximum? If backing of 1.5 grains drops the pressure noticably isn't it worth it?

[BackWoods Billy]

"If you are firing several rounds without letting the gun/barrel cool down it would also lead to the problem of cracked forcing cones"
I was thinking that!! Now I shoot 10 rounds through the chronograph at a time,then walk to the target 50 yards,mark it then come back and do it again for about 100 rounds.Never really noticed the gun getting hot but maybe it was.It was pretty warm-hot this last weekend.(Sorry).The slow burning H110 might just be heating it up more then the 2400???

I sure thanks you guy for your posts.I really don't want this to happen again.Once is bad, two times sucks...

[44man]

"If you are firing several rounds without letting the gun/barrel cool down it would also lead to the problem of cracked forcing cones"
I was thinking that!! Now I shoot 10 rounds through the chronograph at a time,then walk to the target 50 yards,mark it then come back and do it again for about 100 rounds.Never really noticed the gun getting hot but maybe it was.It was pretty warm-hot this last weekend.(Sorry).The slow burning H110 might just be heating it up more then the 2400???

I sure thanks you guy for your posts.I really don't want this to happen again.Once is bad, two times sucks...
Slow powders are a lot easier on your gun then one that builds all pressure in the cylinder. You are better off when powder is still burning down the bore. Even though final pressure is more, the curve is spread out. It is also better to keep the boolit moving as pressure builds.
All powders make a gun hot, it depends on where the heat is concentrated.
I shot IHMSA for years in the hot summers with hot loads and that is where you will see a hot gun, yet no damage. I am still shooting that same gun I bought in about 1980, over 61,000 heavy loads and uncounted plinking loads.

[jblee10]

Flame cutting is what I was getting at. Just amplified by scratches, heat, etc. As far as barrel, cyl gap , the tighter the better.

[jblee10]

really looks like flame cutting. Same as the 357 Max revolvers. Comes from high pressure. Add heat and it gets worse. Tight barrel cylinder gap will reduce it. I expect all high pressure rounds will do this eventually. How many rounds do you have down your 7.5 inch stainless? I've thought carbon steel guns stand up better. Love the blue color too.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I would say your loads are NOT too hot. Similar to my loads.
I shot multiple 1,000 of rounds out of both a SBH & a RH with no problem at all.
Listed safe in old Lyman manual.:Fire::Fire:

[BackWoods Billy]

HI,
I would say your loads are NOT too hot. Similar to my loads.
I shot multiple 1,000 of rounds out of both a SBH & a RH with no problem at all.
Listed safe in old Lyman manual.:Fire::Fire:

What the H&^L. I sure can't figure it out. I want to shoot boolits and not worry about that sh%t. Thats why I got SBHs in the 1st place.[smilie=b:[smilie=b:

[44man]

I still think the boolit is moving out into the cone too fast, then the powder reaches a high pressure before the boolit starts to move again. The gas has to go somewhere!
This is not a powder problem it is a mechanical problem.
Since they can cut all kinds of material with high pressure water and photons, this gun has learned to use gas pressure.
The problem starts at the loading bench.
I don't understand how some figure a tighter gap will prevent this???? That does nothing but speed up escaping gas molecules instead of the gas going down the bore.
The only way to protect the cone is to make the powder itself move the boolit out and keep it moving and gaining velocity as gas expands. That keeps the gas cooler too.
Harder boolit of the right fit, more case tension, decent crimp and a milder primer. Once the boolit starts to move, there must be no hesitation in the movement.
If you load six, shoot five and the last boolit has moved, you have broken the bond and lost the tension. That or loose boolits before it can jump out from the primer. But even if the boolits all hold, a primer with too much pressure can move out the boolit being shot.
Boolits must not move until powder gas expansion moves it, not before.
This is a 100% mechanical problem.

[BackWoods Billy]

Well picked myself up 1,000 CCI 300 primers today and ordered a Hornady expander. I'm going to play around with the 4 5/8 SBH and try not to crack the cone.LOL I'll let you all know how Ruger takes care of me.I'm sure it will take a month or so before I get the 7.5 back...Thank you all for your input....

[jblee10]

The reason I say a tighter B-C gap is better? Gas will only move through a given area at a certain speed at a given pressure. If the B-C gap is larger a greater "volume" of gas will escape through it, but not at a higher speed. An advantage of a tight B-C gap is you lose a smaller percentage of available gas. A reloader can then acheive the same muzzle velocity at a slightly lower pressure load.

[exile]

You guys are starting to scare me. I purchased a Blackhawk in .41 magnum in Nov. 09, and a Blackhawk in .357 magnum last Wednesday. Not to change the subject, but I have been using AA # 9 in the .41 magnum and plan to use it in the .357 magnum based on an article in Handloader (April 2010, # 256, p. 30). On other websites some have said that this powder produces flame cutting if used in the .357 magnum, but if so, what is it good for? Could it also damage the forcing cone? (So maybe not as far off topic as I thought). What do you think?

If this is off topic, please excuse, being inexperienced I want to head off problems before they occur. Thanks.

exile

[44man]

The reason I say a tighter B-C gap is better? Gas will only move through a given area at a certain speed at a given pressure. If the B-C gap is larger a greater "volume" of gas will escape through it, but not at a higher speed. An advantage of a tight B-C gap is you lose a smaller percentage of available gas. A reloader can then acheive the same muzzle velocity at a slightly lower pressure load.
A smaller gap is only good for a tiny FPS gain. The difference from .002" to .004" will only add up to a tenth of a gr of powder or so.
Many revolvers have more velocity then a single shot or auto with the same barrel lengths.
The gap is not worth losing sleep over.
Gas is like a deer walking through the woods. It will take the path of least resistance and that is in the big hole behind a moving boolit.
This is one of those tales like the boolit must be right at the end of the cylinder or the gun will not be accurate.

[44man]

You guys are starting to scare me. I purchased a Blackhawk in .41 magnum in Nov. 09, and a Blackhawk in .357 magnum last Wednesday. Not to change the subject, but I have been using AA # 9 in the .41 magnum and plan to use it in the .357 magnum based on an article in Handloader (April 2010, # 256, p. 30). On other websites some have said that this powder produces flame cutting if used in the .357 magnum, but if so, what is it good for? Could it also damage the forcing cone? (So maybe not as far off topic as I thought). What do you think?

If this is off topic, please excuse, being inexperienced I want to head off problems before they occur. Thanks.

exile
I would relax, never heard a bad thing about AA no. 9. It is a little faster then H110 or 296 and looks like a good match to your guns.
The only powder that worries me is Lil-Gun because it burns hot and heats a gun. I can't say it will damage a cone but it sure makes a barrel hot.
Remember it is a mechanical problem when a cone is cut. Load properly with case tension and your guns will live a hundred years.
I hate the blame game. Those that blame a powder have other issues they don't want to face.

[BackWoods Billy]

"This is one of those tales like the boolit must be right at the end of the cylinder or the gun will not be accurate"

I am kinda new to this bench shotting but the testing I have done so fare shows that the boolits that are crimped in the top crimp shoot better then the lower one.That seems true with the XTPs too. I have read alot about there is less "jump" if the boolit is crimped in the lower crimp grove closer to the front of the cylinder..
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/2732/forboolits.jpg (http://img560.imageshack.us/i/forboolits.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[44man]

I have had to wonder if what I have found to be the most accurate in my revolvers has had a big affect on reduced wear and tear no matter how high the velocity or heavy the boolit?
Is there a connection?
I can't say because like everyone else, I shot all kinds of stuff since I was young and never had anything wear on a revolver. But I was always after accuracy first, nothing else mattered to me. I was in love with healthy doses of 2400 until 296 came out. Yet each was loaded for maximum accuracy only.
Many would call me a liar if I told you what I was dong in the early 50's.
I don't have an answer but it is something to think about.

[BackWoods Billy]

"Many would call me a liar if I told you what I was dong in the early 50's."

WELL TELL US. :) I'm sure there's not much else going on today with it being - whatever outside.burr.

[44man]

"This is one of those tales like the boolit must be right at the end of the cylinder or the gun will not be accurate"

I am kinda new to this bench shotting but the testing I have done so fare shows that the boolits that are crimped in the top crimp shoot better then the lower one.That seems true with the XTPs too. I have read alot about there is less "jump" if the boolit is crimped in the lower crimp grove closer to the front of the cylinder..
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/2732/forboolits.jpg (http://img560.imageshack.us/i/forboolits.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Load work counts more. Take a look at this jump from my 45-70 revolver. These are groups shot at 50 yards. No revolver I own is shot closer then 50. Notice one five shot group is 5/16".

[BackWoods Billy]

Nice shooting!!! Is that with a scope?? If not, tell me who your eye doctor is LOL...

[44man]

Then the same revolver was used to shoot five shots through the top of this can at 100 yards. Other holes are from a friends rifle.
Then I shot this can twice at 100 yards with my .475 BFR.
Some of our revolvers are so accurate we can hit 1" targets at 100 yards as long as we can see them.

[44man]

Nice shooting!!! Is that with a scope?? If not, tell me who your eye doctor is LOL...
I use the Ultra Dot because I hunt with these guns. The dot covers 4" at 100 yards. No handicap at all.
But remember, I am 73 and vision sucks. The secret is the guns have been made to shoot 1000 times better then I can shoot them.
Your secret is to never be happy and keep working and thinking at your bench.
I will do everything I can to make everyone shoot like this but only if you rid yourself of the old wives tales and dump the gun comics.
I just read a Taffin report for the MR .44 and his sad groups were shot at 20 yards! WHAT IS THAT ALL ABOUT? That revolver will do better then that at 100 yards!
Maybe I am nuts but here is what my .44 does at 50 and 100 yards with the 265 gr RD boolit. I shot the can at 100 but hit the rail so I aimed higher for the last shot.
YES, YES, the great boolit will hold 3/4" at 50 yards and 1-1/4" at 100.

[leadman]

Especially for new shooters it is very important to use the latest data available for the currently produced powders. Testing of pressures is better than it used to be. I know years ago Speer did no pressure testing, all data was from firing production guns.
Elmer also blew many topstraps off revolvers and had them welded back on! This was from his own writings in the American Rifleman many years ago.

How would you feel if you were shooting your gun and something happened and a person, or your kid/spouse was injured or killed?

When we start damaging firearms we need to know why. when we are using data over that currently published and damaging firearms then it is time to change what we are doing.
Alliant does list specific load data for the Keith style bullet, but it does not state which version, which there are many even with the same number as 429421.

[exile]

Thanks for the info, .44man and backwoodsbilly for the learning going on here. I am waiting for Ranch Dog to come out with the new 175 grain boolit in the .357 magnum. Anyway, good luck with your Rugers.

exile

[BackWoods Billy]

The way I see it is,when you stop learning you die. Like .44man said "Your secret is to never be happy and keep working and thinking at your bench." I'm taking that statement to heart..

[44man]

Especially for new shooters it is very important to use the latest data available for the currently produced powders. Testing of pressures is better than it used to be. I know years ago Speer did no pressure testing, all data was from firing production guns.
Elmer also blew many topstraps off revolvers and had them welded back on! This was from his own writings in the American Rifleman many years ago.

How would you feel if you were shooting your gun and something happened and a person, or your kid/spouse was injured or killed?

When we start damaging firearms we need to know why. when we are using data over that currently published and damaging firearms then it is time to change what we are doing.
Alliant does list specific load data for the Keith style bullet, but it does not state which version, which there are many even with the same number as 429421.
Although true, none of the loads were dangerous that caused the gas cutting. This is NOT an over pressure situation or a powder choice either.

[BackWoods Billy]

Well.I just called the gun store where Ruger sent a UPS to pick up my gun.Ruger said that they can't fix my gun because it has been modafied....I took the writing off the barrel and taped for scope. They said they would sell me a new one for a good price.I'm going to call them tomorrow.(it was to late today to call).What's with this???? You have to have them do the work and can't buy a barrel unless they put it on. I'm starting to think twice about Rugers.I just had a screw strip out of a new one (SBH 4 5/8) And I keep them tight..I will see what they have to say and let you all know..Maybe the BFR's are the way to go. This is getting old..I always thought Rugers were tough..

[Matthew 25]

Hey Billy, I'm in the same boat right now, too. I've sent my 4 5/8 SBH in with a ruptured forcing cone. They want almost $300 to replace the barrel. All I want to do is talk with one of the Tech/Smiths there and find out why it happened (they're not allowed to talk on the phone). I don't want to fixed it if it's goofed up. It doesn't sound like they're being consistent with us. I'll try to call tomorrow too if I can find a half hour to sit on hold.

[NHlever]

I have seen more than a few SBH's that have had a lot of warm loads through them in competition, and have to say that I think there is a bit more to both these stories than is being stated. It is possible that both guns were shipped from Ruger with chambers in the cylinder that didn't line up with the barrel as well as they should have which would accelerate throat wear. If you could check that, or perhaps even talk to Ruger about that, they might be more willing to warranty the work for you. Now drilling holes in the barrel is another matter, and I can kind of see their point there. I doubt that removing the warning had much to do with that decision. I've heard that Ruger has changed the set up in customer service so that one person does barrels, and one does triggers on different guns, etc. instead of one person being a Single action person, and one a No.1 person, etc. That may be why they no longer allow conversations between the person doing the work, and the customer, or it might just be the way "lean manufacturing" operations are set up.

[Matthew 25]

Are you suggesting, NHlever, that one or both of these revolvers was overloaded?

[NHlever]

I'm suggesting that it could be that the chambers in the cylinder are not lined up with the barrel as well as they should be, and I think that is what I said. Hopefully you will get the problems resolved, but I was suggeting that you check that alignment if you can to have something more to discuss with Ruger's customer service. Good luck.

[BackWoods Billy]

Well guys.I called Ruger up this morning and asked what was going on.The bottom line was,If you put a scope on and drill and tap the top strap they will not work on the gun!! I ask If I could pay to have it fixed and they said NO. They will not do any work on the gun.They did say that they would sell me a new Hunter in .44 mag for $351.99. So what could I do?? I bought the Hunter...To be fare with Ruger I guess they did try to make me happy..They don't want some gun to blow the top strap off after they fixed it....So I said goodbye to my SBH..

[jblee10]

Take it to a gunsmith. He should be able to set the barrel back. Or install a new barrel from a blank and probably doen't care it the top strap has some holes in it.

[BackWoods Billy]

I called a good gunsmith and they said it would of cost about the same,so I went for the New Hunter.Now I'm looking forward to trying it out. Ruger did give me a good deal on the gun..I'm 56 and tried of f***ing around.I just want to shoot.

[Frank]

That's crazy they won't work on a gun if it's drilled and tapped. New Smiths come all drilled and tapped.

[Heavy lead]

I called a good gunsmith and they said it would of cost about the same,so I went for the New Hunter.Now I'm looking forward to trying it out. Ruger did give me a good deal on the gun..I'm 56 and tried of f***ing around.I just want to shoot.

That's a good price too, if I could get one for that price, I'd do it in a minute, I have one, you will like it. Although I wish I would've waited for the Bisley model, but that is just a matter of fit and taste I guess.
One huge improvement on the hunter is not discussed much and that is the longer ejector rod, I believe at least 1/4" longer it kicks the cases out much more, and allows the base pin to be pulled out completely.
Good Luck with it BWB.

[JesterGrin_1]

I also have the Ruger Bisley Hunter in .44 Mag. And I really like it. BUT lol. On the one I had the ejector rod protruded into the cylinder well a bit too far so it made it hard to remove the cylinder. So I had to cut down the ejector pin a bit. Just something to look out for. :)

[EDK]

That's crazy they won't work on a gun if it's drilled a tapped. New Smiths come all drilled and tapped.


It's not crazy...it's CYA. Everybody is scared to death of a big time law suit. WHO has a free safety conversion for your old model BLACKHAWK, etc. I used to live in Madison county IL...frivolous lawsuit capital of the world; home of ignorant jury awards to ambulance chasing lawyers.

I had Jim Stroh at ALPHA PRECISION do some custom work on one of the first 629models and the barrel threads were galled up big time...it's a piece of junk. The S&W guys at the Bianchi Cup politely told me to go pound some salt in my *** since it had been altered. Mr. Stroh had either just been aclaimed PISTOLSMITH OF THE YEAR in the American Pistolsmiths Guild or would be in the near future and the S&W guy made some disparaging remarks...while admitting that there was a factory problem installing barrels on the stainless guns. I sent the president of S&W a registered letter...5 pages single spaced typed....detailing my problems and how I would not sell the gun to some unsuspecting soul. BUT would he want a *** gun with his company's name on it out floating around. The situation was rectified almost immediately and the 629 and I have lived happily ever after.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[Frank]

EDK:
I sent the president of S&W a registered letter...5 pages single spaced typed....detailing my problems and how I would not sell the gun to some unsuspecting soul. BUT would he want a *** gun with his company's name on it out floating around. The situation was rectified almost immediately and the 629 and I have lived happily ever after.

What you did was a good example of how going to the top gets the immediate result. The president was probably saying to himself, "Now how come all these mindless idiots I'm surrounded by didn't tell me that? Don't they know what the word "image" means? That's all I've got around me, bean counters. High paid do nothings!"

[NHlever]

I'm happy to hear that Ruger helped you in at least a small way to resolve your issues. Hope you have great luck with that hunter!

[Matthew 25]

Arr, I've just gotten more run-around service from Ruger. "they'll be calling me back". NHlever, sorry if I offended. I've been accused of overloading this Ruger by the gun shop folks and the goobers at Ruger, I'm a little sensitive.

[BackWoods Billy]

Thanks for being here you guys. I just wished that Ruger would let every body know up front that if you drill and tap there guns that they will not work on them.... I did not know that. I just figured that if they said anything that I would have to pay them for the work..

[NHlever]

Arr, I've just gotten more run-around service from Ruger. "they'll be calling me back". NHlever, sorry if I offended. I've been accused of overloading this Ruger by the gun shop folks and the goobers at Ruger, I'm a little sensitive.

No Problem, and I didn't take any offense. Just trying to help get the issues resolved so you can enjoy shooting. I sure know how frustrating those kind of things can be.

[Frank]

BackWoods Billy:
Thanks for being here you guys. I just wished that Ruger would let every body know up front that if you drill and tap there guns that they will not work on them.
Same thing with a trigger job. If you send it in, you'll lose that too. It'll come back stock. If you pillar bed, they won't recognize that either. Rules are rules, and you must obey. But you are just Joe Public. What do you matter? We only want your mullah. :groner:

[BackWoods Billy]

I would like to know where these "RULES" or written down???? I have a striped screw on my SBH 4 5/8s (the front one ahead of the trigger guard ) and I can't fix it or even take it to a gunsmith in fear that if something else brakes Ruger won't work on the gun at all??????? Sounds like a pain in the ass to have to send it in for a small thing like that...

[Matthew 25]

I'm feeling your pain, Billy. I'm thinkin' real hard about throwing down for a BFR. I'm not sure if I should get the 44 or 454. I still love Ruger, but I'm thinking over time full house 44's are too much for such a small gun (4 5/8 SBH).

[NHlever]

I would like to know where these "RULES" or written down???? I have a striped screw on my SBH 4 5/8s (the front one ahead of the trigger guard ) and I can't fix it or even take it to a gunsmith in fear that if something else brakes Ruger won't work on the gun at all??????? Sounds like a pain in the ass to have to send it in for a small thing like that...

Billy, the thing to do with that is to have Ruger fix the stripped out screw hole. They may do it for nothing ( call them first, and ask for a shipping container, etc.) and they will warranty any repair they made, or other things you need fixed.

I guess the question is would you warranty a .44 mag if you didn't know how much metal was left at the bottom of a screw hole someone outside the factory drilled in the barrel? I got a chance to look at many guns returned to customer service ovrer the years, and saw some pretty scary stuff......... and some pretty stupid (sorry, no other word works) stuff too. One person left a flattop, first year (2 digit serial number) Blackhawk hanging outside his cabin all winter to see how durable the blued finish was..........

[BackWoods Billy]

What would be nice,is if they had gun smiths that were certified for Ruger all over the USA like S+W and Browning.

[44man]

Is the frame stripped or just the screw? Did you strip it?
Loose screws can strip or shear but normally the frame is OK so all that is needed is a new screw.
Some are too short from the factory and BFR was no exception. The front trigger guard screw was too short and I had to make a new one. I told them about it and they make one longer now. That screw should be all the way to the end of the hole.
A screw will never get bad if kept tight.
Ruger sells a screw kit dirt cheap.

[BackWoods Billy]

Thanks.I did get a new screw from Ruger and tried it.The frame is striped.I'm sure it came loose while I was shooting the gun.I put lock tit on it as I always do. I figured it was just the screw but it wasn't..I would just tap it to the next size up but I guess I have to send it in.If I do it myself and something else goes wrong in the future then Ruger will not work on my gun..To me it's a big pain in the ass just to re tap a screw.

[NHlever]

Now Billy, please don't get carried away with Internet chatter. I doubt very much that Ruger would refuse to work on your gun if you fixed that screw hole. If you are in doubt about it, give them a call. There is a huge difference between holes drilled in barrels, and cylinder frames, and fixing your problem with an oversized tap. That hole is a hard one to fix any other way. Helicoils have been tried, but the material there is just a bit too thin for that to work well. No sense in getting upset over things that haven't happened, and probably won't.

[BackWoods Billy]

NHLever.I did call.If you own a Ruger you have to play by there rules.You can not touch the frame at all or they will not work on them!! I'm sorry for my bitterness but I had a very nice SBH that I loved..Put hours of work into it.I drilled and taped the top strap for a Leopold scope mount (nice job if I do say myself) and needed a new barrel. They said once you modify the frame they will not repair your gun..... They did sell me a Hunter for a good price,but I wish I could of had my SBH instead..So I'm letting you all know if you put a scope on your Ruger and drill and tap it, forget Ruger working on it!! Please don't get me wrong.I have had Rugers for years and never had anything go wrong with them.I have a SP101 that I would never sell and it's a great gun..I have had bad luck with the SBHs. I'm not saying that It's not my fault.I'm saying it would be nice to just be able to take it to a good gunsmith and have it fixed without having to spend all the time and money to send it to Ruger. Know I know the Ruger Rules..I can take my S+W and my Brownings to the gunsmith around here and have them fixed if I need too.:violin:

[NHlever]

Well, that's too bad. I was hoping they would view a repair to a damaged screw hole differently than they do a "modificaion". I don't really blame you for being a little upset.

[BackWoods Billy]

This Horse has been beaten..Thanks for all your help..

[bigboredad]

hey I'm just wondering how you like your hunter. After years of looking and thinking about them I finally picked one up. I got mine used and wish I would have bought a new one. I really like mine. I put a nikon 2x scope. I just picked up a new mold that was supposed to drop at 300gr. but with lube and a gas check is running at 335gr. and it hits like a freight train. but I am really interested in how you like yours and how your loads that you used before shoot out of the hunter

[BackWoods Billy]

Well I don't know yet. Just came in from Ruger to the gun store. I live in The Republic Of Kalifornia so I have to wait 10 day to pick it up.It sure looks and feels like it will be a shooter. I'm sure I'll have to do a little work on the trigger and brake it in some.Waiting for a 4x Leupold to come in the mail from Ebay.Got a gooood deal on that.Going to try it on the gun where the rings go 1st.Most likely will get a Weigand mount so it seats back a little. I'll let you know how it pushes them Lee 310 boolits....

[Matthew 25]

My saga has ended with Ruger. After having many phone calls with people that were not authorized to make decisions, after 3 promises to have calls made to me that never materialized, I wrote a letter addressed to management. So I got a call back from a NICE SMART person (those are my favorite kind). She advised the forcing cone fractured from wear, not misalignment and not pressure problems. They will replace the barrel and do some cosmetics for $144. This is fair, my first quote was nearly $300. So I'm happy now.

[bigboredad]

Hey BBilly have you hads a chance to play with your new Ruger yet? I have been playing with the 335's and love them they are such a joy to shoot out of the hunter. I hope yours is coming along well and you are enjoying it

[BackWoods Billy]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_166754d7b080f9d1b1.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=176)

It shoots as good as it looks..Put some rubber grips on it and it shoots them heavy loads( Lee 315g-- 21.5g H110 )like there's no tomorrow.:?

[Matthew 25]

Guess what...I got the SBH replacement today. It only took 3 1/2 months. After it was determined the forcing cone broke from being "worn out" we agreed to replace the barrel. When they got around to replacing the barrel they found they could not remove it without permanently damaging the frame, which they did. The good news is they replaced the entire pistol for less than $150, the cost of the expected new barrel. So Ruger ended up treating me right money-wise, but I was a little unhappy with the time the whole process took and the one-way communications (ie me contacting them and never the reverse). I'm so mad at Ruger I figured I'd show them...I placed an order for an SR1911 (and I hope it doesn't break).

[Dale53]

Lyman's new, 4th Edition of the Cast Bullet Handbook shows a MAXIMUM of 19.5 grs of H110 with the Lee 310 gr RF GC bullet.

Further, the Lyman book shows 20.6 grs of 2400 as Maximum with the Lyman 429421 cast bullet.

I follow Lyman's pressure data for the .44 Magnum and do NOT exceed in my guns.

Dale53

[Multigunner]

Ruger has some of the very best designed handguns in the business, yet possibly the worst quality control of any major manufacturer.
If you get a good Ruger hold onto it , any replacement you might buy later may be a total dog.

Generally Ruger QC failures are so obvious that you should be able to spot them by a close examination before purchase. I found you can't take anything for granted with Ruger products. They've passed pistols with obvious defects that could have been spotted by a blind chimpanzee.
Their metalurgy was always top notch, I'm very saddened to hear that this may no longer be relied on. You can't spot bad steel just by looking at it.

[44man]

Lyman's new, 4th Edition of the Cast Bullet Handbook shows a MAXIMUM of 19.5 grs of H110 with the Lee 310 gr RF GC bullet.

Further, the Lyman book shows 20.6 grs of 2400 as Maximum with the Lyman 429421 cast bullet.

I follow Lyman's pressure data for the .44 Magnum and do NOT exceed in my guns.

Dale53
Hodgdon shows 20 gr max for a 325 gr boolit.
I have used 21.5 with both the Lee 310 and the LBT 320 for years and years because that is where both are accurate.
This is why you work loads for your gun because they all have different internal dimensions.
Cast Performance told me the starting load for the 320 gr LBT is 19 gr. It will not group until 21.5 gr out of my gun. At 22, groups will start to open a little.
The Lee seated in the lower crimp groove has less boolit in the case then the LBT.
I have been very comfortable with my load.
A revolver does not show the pressures that a special pressure gun gets either.

[BackWoods Billy]

Well you guys..LOL..That .44 SBH Hunter is starting to work real well for me with the 21.5g H110 and the Lee 310 boolits.Just got a GP100 and it was so stiff out of the box that it took me about an hour to make it ok..I think I can make a shooter out of it with alot of fire lapping and more spit on the sear and hammer....LOL
http://img195.imageshack.us/i/forcastboolits44.jpg/]http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/4505/forcastboolits44.th.jpg[/URL][/IMG]
This is what the Hunter is doing with that load and I'm just getting started...Thanks 44Man....

[Alexn20]

From my experience Ruger has been very helpful. I had a timing problem with my fathers 30 carbine blackhawk and they did a laundry list of repairs including providing a new cylinder for FREE. I have been a very happy customer and have always been treated extremely well by Ruger. However, I didn't have any modifications and it may have been a different story if I had done custom work on it.

I understand your frustration with Ruger but I also see their side of the story. Can you imagine some of the **** they see come in. I would guess they see all sorts of dangerous things. If I were Ruger I would only want work completed by my Smiths. Just imagine the liability of owning a firearm company in this day and age. Manufacturers of any industry will void your warranty if modifications are made.

Glad to hear they were able to compromise with you. Sounds like it may have worked out for the best in the end anyway. Hope that Hunter continues to put a smile on your face.

[DougGuy]

Alexn20 you do realize that the thread you replied in has had no posts in 3 1/2yrs? Where'd you dig this one up at? LOL..

[Alexn20]

Geez, No did not notice that. I was actually browsing through the "unread posts" in the top right. I will pay closer attention to the date. I didnt expect that would have such old posts :/

Sorry guys! haha Thanks for letting me know I'm bumping really old posts.

[Alexn20]

I now know what I did. I searched for posts containing Forcing cone problems and thought I was still in the recent post. My Bad. Senior moment!

[JesterGrin_1]

It does not matter the age of a post as Good Information is still Good Information.

[BackWoods Billy]

It does not matter the age of a post as Good Information is still Good Information.
That's great that people are still looking at this post. By the way the SBH Hunter is still shooting great.
I got a lot of great feedback on this and other post here. Thanks for posting on this again.

[44man]

It is not pressure or the loads. Might be the boolit is hitting a little off center. Why I say NO BELT MOUNTAIN PINS FIT TIGHT or cylinders fit tight with no side play. I have owned many Rugers and never seen one crack. My SBH has over 79,000 heavy loads through it with just the normal sand blasting on the cone edges.
Years ago with my original flat top from 1956, I shot thousands and thousands of 429421 boolits with 22 gr of 2400 with no problems.
Have to wonder if a barrel can be stressed by tight threads.

[Paul105]

Deleted

[BackWoods Billy]

It is not pressure or the loads. Might be the boolit is hitting a little off center. Why I say NO BELT MOUNTAIN PINS FIT TIGHT or cylinders fit tight with no side play. I have owned many Rugers and never seen one crack. My SBH has over 79,000 heavy loads through it with just the normal sand blasting on the cone edges.
Years ago with my original flat top from 1956, I shot thousands and thousands of 429421 boolits with 22 gr of 2400 with no problems.
Have to wonder if a barrel can be stressed by tight threads.

Good to see your still on here. Thanks for all the help you have givin me.

[JesterGrin_1]

Good to see your still on here. Thanks for all the help you have givin me.

44Man Has helped far more People than he probably knows. Including myself but he knows that painfully so lol.