How does one decide which .303 to use

[Brithunter]

OK here's the dilema I have small quantity of comercially cast 205 grain Gas Checked bullets that are sized to 0.311"-0.312" and I have shot them before but not in these rifles. Previously I used them in a BSA sporter built on a Metford carbine action that had a new '39' milsurp barrel fittted just before I brought it and a Martini Enfield AC11 and they shot reasonably well. However I have never shot them nor tried them in the three sporterised 303 rifles, all commercially done, that I have now.

Initially I shall try "The Load" (16.0 Grns of Red-Dot)

So which would you choose?


Now just checking them the P-14 based BSA Model E has a slightly worn bore and the cast bullets bore riding portion will enter the muzzle easily.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/4011864/376549980.jpg
Fitted with Redfield 70WCH receiver sight but can also have a scope. Obviously the bullet is sized too small for perfect results as best i can measure the groove size is 0.317" although that's only using a digital caliper.

The P-14 based BSA Model C has recently had a brand new barrel fitted. This barrel has been Ball Burnished and the cast bullet will not enter the muzzle without eing forced in. Apart from proofing originally this barrel has never had jacketed ammunition through it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v166/Brithunter/Project%20P-14/P5280137.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v166/Brithunter/Project%20P-14/P6110140.jpg
This is a re-build project and the stock is off a Parker-Hale Target/sporter as the original is no good :cry: so a replacement will be sort at a later stage. The receiver sight is a P-H 6E and I also have a Redfield 102 that can be fitted once I turn down the screw head to fit the sight body :confused: brand new sight and the screws don't fit?

Next is a No4 sporter, thought to be a Parker-Hale Supreme and again the cast bullet will not enter the muzzle without force. Even more force than the ball burnished barrel.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v166/Brithunter/No4SportingconversionRHS.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v166/Brithunter/No4SportingconversionLHS.jpg
Since the photos the recoil pad has been replaced with a ribbed rubber BSA pad that is only about 3/16" thick. That vented pad made it too long in LOP for me.

Now as far as I can tell all have normal .303 groove dimensions so in the 0.314" range except the Model C with it's slightly worn bore. All are 5 groove barrels so difficult to measure. I had been thinking about selling the No4 to make room for another BSA sporting rifle but am not decided which way to go as yet. None have any pitting in the bores and I am stuck with commercial bullets for a while as no where to set up for casting for at least a while.

[sqlbullet]

I would load of some ammo and shoot them.

If they don't shoot well, or won't hold accuracy (leading), then next I would slug the bore's. I got the impression (perhaps wrongly) that you were measuring the grooves by using your caliper directly in the muzzle of the gun. This does not provide you a useful measure. You will need to drive a soft slug through the gun, and then measure the slug.

Good luck.

[blackthorn]

Get some light shim stock. Mike the thickness of the shim stock and write it down. Tightly wrap the shim stock around a bullet and mike the result. Deducting twice the thickness of the shim stock will give you the size of your bullet. Have a great day!

[mooman76]

Shoot them all and see what does best first. Then go from there. The only way for you to find out is by testing them.

[mdi]

Before I shoot cast in any of my firearms, I slug the barrel, and revolvers I slug (size) the cylinder throats. I 've done this since I started casting a few years ago, but usually just guessed (?) when I shot commercial cast. Barrel slugging is easy and gives lots of info...

[Brithunter]

Hmmm Ok thanks it looks like for these commercially cast bullets I will just have to load some up and shoot them. If the weather improves and the wind stops howling that is.

Before laying out for a mould I'll slug the bore and hopefully the throat but as these bullets are already sized and lubed there is not much I can do about that now.

Meanwhile I'll re-read the Paper Patched .303 thread again as that might be the way to go forwards once I really get going with cast.

[Mk42gunner]

Brithunter,

Recheck your data, there are two different versions of Ed Harris' "The Load." One is 16 grains of 2400. The other is 13 grains of Red Dot.

This is the bad thing about naming loads, they get misquoted.

The Red Dot load is not a low pressure load, I would not arbitrarily increase it by three grains.

Robert

[JeffinNZ]

Here is my 2 cents worth.

Both my No1 MkIII and No4 MkII have tight barrels that slug .311-.312 in the grooves but the throats are much bigger. The smallest target bullet I shoot now is .314 and the largest .3165 diameter. This is a target I shot today with .3165 bullets. Range is 50m/55y for 5 shots. Group is 15mm or 0.59 inch.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/31617550m.jpg

Basically, shoot the fattest bullet you can easily chamber. I doubt the .311-.312 bullet you have will produce the BEST accuracy.

[HangFireW8]

Here is a link to The Load. Please don't start with 16 grains.

http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html

I would start with the Pattern 14. It just looks like a cast boolit launcher to me.

-HF

[PAT303]

With 303's shooting a boolit smaller than .314 is a waste of powder.Shoot the biggest that will chamber. Pat

[dromia]

The advice on "the Load" is sound do not use 16 gns of Red Dot, you appear to have two of Harris's recipes mixed up.

Go with the slower powder load of 16 gns of Alliant 2400 or 17-18 gns of Vihtavuori N110 or 19-20 gns of Vihtavuori N120. These are my cast boolit pwoders of choice now. These are gentle loads giving around 16-1700 fps and its safe to work up from there if you feel the need for a tad more velocity.

You really do need to slug your barrels so you know the groove diameter and then get a boolit 1-2 thou over. Good throat fit is even better but as you have the one design of boolit you'll have to go with what you have.

I'd plump for the PH No4 sporter, I have one as my main stalking rifle and their barrels are really tight so more likely to fit your small size boolit.

As has been said ensure chambering and oal before you put up the loads.

[Brithunter]

Thank you all, yes I made a mistake and I did try the Red Dot behind one of these cast bullets back in 2006 but that was in the Belgian made Martini Muscat which has a strange rifling type and seems closer to .308 than .303. I used 1.6cc = 10.3 grn hence my confusion. Loading was with the Lee Dippers.

I have Ed Harris's article:-

Red Dot in Reduced Rifle Loads

printed off and have just retrieved it from the file :oops: should have done that BEFORE posting :veryconfu.

Dromia,

I will see what powders I can picke up and at what price in the locailty but right now I have:-

IMR 4198
Reloader 7
Red Dot
N330

So I am either side burning rate wise or your suggestions. In the past I used 27.0-28.0 Grn Reloader 7 behind the old 210 Grn RNGC bullet from Colin at Custom Bullets. The 210 Grn bullets also came from Colin but he got a new mould. This bullet did not shoot as well through the BSA sporter:-

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/322277/9107303.jpg
Metford carbine action no charger bridge.

So I got Colin to run me some from the old mould. Of course this was some years back and so these commercially cast have been in store for some considerable time now. Probably about 8-10 years.


As has been said ensure chambering and oal before you put up the loads.
I have 4 rounds left over from a loading session back in 97. Hmmm wonder how these got left over? But the chamber just fine so I have measurements to work with.

Ahhh I see I also tried H414 with the heavier 210 grn cast bullets but did not record the results except that I needed to try them with a Magnum primer so I assume erractic ignition was the result.

Back then I didn't have these .303 rifles, now the No4 Supreme I will sort a scope out and put it on it and give it a go otherwise it's the Normal No4 rear sight as I sold the TZ47 a couple of years ago now thinking I didn't need it any more :oops:, as for the re-barreled BSA Model C (P-14 based) I'll have to sort out some brass for this one has it has minimum headspace so will keep it segregated.

Once I try these bullets I will have a look and see which of the ones you so kindly sent down would be best then we will have a better idea on what works.

[HangFireW8]

So I got Colin to run me some from the old mould. Of course this was some years back and so these commercially cast have been in store for some considerable time now. Probably about 8-10 years.

Keep in mind these older boolits will be a bit softer than when cast, quite a bit softer if water dropped or heat treated.

Also, if already lubed, most useful lubes will have dried up by now.

Not saying they aren't useful- just keep in mind their current properties. If you have a friend with a boolit hardness tester, testing one or two would be a good idea.

-HF

[Brithunter]

Hmmm actually I don't know anyone that casts now. The lube is a red waxy one and I can still dent it easily with a finger nail but bearing in mind what you said it might be wise to tumble lube them in some Lee Liquid alox. Providing it has not dried up.

Oh yes and since my last play with these cast bullets I now have a Lyman M die so seating should be easier. Before I just chamfered a bit heavier with the case mouth deburrer.

Meanwhile I broke of a new set of P-H RALS3 rings and put the Weaver K3W on the No4 sporter. Will lube the bore later and try to get a throat measurement by tapping a soft lead 0.357" bullet into the throat. Of course these were also cast some

Wish me luck [smilie=l:

Edit:-

Oh yes this was my first attempt with a variation of the load in that Martini Muscat:-

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/1255696/60235511.jpg

I reduced it a bit as this was shot on the indoor 25 metre range so the velocity needed to be brought down a tad.

[square butte]

For those who may be interested, NOE just ran a small number of molds in .316 diameter of the 311-165 GCRF group buy. They can be found in the Vendors Sales forum - thread titled 316- 165 RF. I think there may be four molds left 2 cav. GC. I ordered one to use in my Enfield. Tough to find a good .316 mold.

[Brithunter]

Thanks for the heads up I'll take a look. Meanwhile the preparation continues and as you all now know for practice at least I am switching to cast bullets at least in .303 to start but the intention is to use cast in another couple of rifles later on. Now I understand that for any chance of good grouping with cast bullets the jacket fouling MUST be removed from the bore. Seems the cast bullets don't like it so in preparation for this I took the No4 Sporter out (P-H Supreme) and although the bore looked clean when peering from the breech, all nice and shiney , when using a strong light directed onto the sides of the bore at the muzzle traces of jacket fouling could be seen.

First stage is to scrub the bore with a bronze brush dipped in P-H 009 Nitro Solvent to get the powder fouling out so the Forest Bore Foam can work on the jacket fouling. Despite it looking clean after a dozen strokes of the bronze brush and and second dip in the 009 then left to soak for 1/2 hour. The patch came out black when the bore was wiped through. So another two patches made the trip down the bore. Fouling was still evident so the process was repeated. Followed by the application of the Bore Foam which was left to work with the rifle standing muzzle down on a paper pad for an hour. The patch used to wipe through came out blue. So another application was called for. In all three applications of Forest were applied and there is still a hint of fouling but that's not the bad news.......................... Oh no .

On closer inspection now the jacket fouling is almost gone it has revealed fine pitting of the lands. According to the Birmingham View mark this rifle was converted in 1960 to it's present sporting configuration and although it shows little sign of hard use being in fine condition obviously this jacket fouling has lain in the bore for many years. In the past I had only cleaned with P-H 009 and have not shot this one much. Probably less than 60 rounds since I acquired it and looking from the breech the bore looked clean.

If it had not been for the intention to use cast bullets then I might not have discovered this at all and of course all the while any moisture could continue to work away under the jacket fouling. Of course it may have been shot with corrosive ammuniton in the past and not cleaned properly to neutralise the primer residue ............................... but 50 years later we will never know for sure.

The fine pitting is not enough to spoil the plans and hopefully we can over come any issues but it made me wonder how many rifles that on a casual inspection look very good in the bore actually have hidden issues under that jacket fouling?

Oh well these things are sent to try us [smilie=b:.

Edit:- This afternoon, late afternoon as the light was fading, I tried 10 rounds of "The Load" (13.0 Grains =1.9cc ). Due to teh age of the bullets I smeared some "Old" Lee Liquid Alox on the bullets with a cotton bud. It's so old I am not sure it's OK. Anyway it took four shots to walk the scope on the about cenre line at 25 paces an then from prone it put 4 shots into 5/8" one was about 2" right I assume, for now, that I messed up. So even with these undersized 0.311" bullets it shows promise....