Heresy? Looking for an alternative to lead.

[skytex]

With the way lead is going, I'm sure it's crossed peoples minds. What are the alternatives to lead? What is within a decent price range? Personally I shoot and load shotguns and make bird shot with my lead. The alternatives on the market in shot shells seem to be lead, bismuth, and a couple of custom alloys. Why can't we come up with a "custom alloy" here that we all can make? Perhaps some kind of additive to the lead to make what we have stretch? Any ideas?

[btroj]

And how expensive are the loads with those cutoff alloys? Or bismuth?
Having to pay 3 or 4 dollars a pound, and up, would dramatically reduce the cost effectiveness of casting. I also don't know how they would respond on game, a shot pellet is asked to do little bit penetrates, a bullet might be asked to penetrate and expand, all while sticking together.
We also have no idea what extreme measures the shot maker may use to manufacture said pellets.
Hate to rain on your parade but lead is used because it is easy to work with, cheap, and flat works. I don't have the money to spend investigating alternatives, nor a desire to do so. I will just keep searching for new lead sources and hoard, hoard, hoard.

[hk33ka1]

In my opinion here is where lead is going and what you can or will have to do.

Cheap/free lead, WW scrap etc, will be worth too much for people to go anywhere other than scrapyards with meaning shooters won't be able to get it as easy or cheap. Sources like WW will dry up like print shop and plumbing lead did years ago.

Most shooters will have to pay more for "new" lead from suppliers like Rotometal just like commercial casters do. Basically making your boolits cost more than they used to. As opposed to most casters using local found scrap lead.

[crabo]

That's why you try to collect waaaay more than you think you will ever need.

[btroj]

Did I mention hoard, hoard, hoard? No such thing as too much lead on hand.

[skytex]

I agree, but with so little luck it is sickening. 42lbs of ww in 2 months! Been told no everywhere I go. So it leaves me thinking what else is there?

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

"Hate to rain on your parade but lead is used because it is easy to work with, cheap, and flat works. I don't have the money to spend investigating alternatives, nor a desire to do so. I will just keep searching for new lead sources and hoard, hoard, hoard."
That's an insulting answer to the mans serious question, a question that all of us should be considering for the welfare of our hobby and if you care to flame me, well, have at it. And if you do, understand, it will now be the forum watching because I've already had my say.
I see what skytex is getting at and it isn't gathering as much of it as he can for only himself. He is asking has anyone experimented with blending other materials with lead at the novice level and had any success. Someone had to first experiment with tin and antimony to get those specific alloys because pure lead had become unsatisfactory for our intended purposes. Simply hoarding lead would have solved nothing in that instance. Someone in the past had to think out of the box and find a solution to a problem. Our problem now is a dwindling supply of free/cheap affordable lead suitable for bullet making. Without the foresight of those people we might not be casting for our firearms now, in the present. If we do not think out of the box now what problems will our future casters face when there is little or nothing for them to "hoard"? I agree in the present we find what we can, as much as we can and hang onto it..... but do not discourage experimentation from those who can and will test new alloys/blends attempting to find a viable alternative. If you do not care about the future of our hobby then you pay no homage to those in the past that cared about you. End of sermon.......
Mike

[lwknight]

Buying lead at market price will always be cheaper than buying bullets by the pound.
Here is what I don't get and its probably why I'm not a wealthy businesman.
When the cost of materials increase , the price increases double what the materials cast has increased. Run of the mill bullet was selling for 9 cents when materials cost 3 cents.
Materials cost goes to 6 cents and the same bullet gets priced at 16 cents.
Whats up with that? Labor is not going up even though food and fuel are.

[btroj]

I did not mean it as an insult in any way. I just don't think a viable alternative exists at this time. I am nit a materials or metals expert. I do not have a source for bismuth, other than very expensive shot, and do not know what other metals even have a hope of being successful.

I care very much about my shooting and lead. But caring is not enough. This is a question that is going to be expensive to answer. I don't think a hobbyist is going to be able to try enough various combinations to find something that works. Yeah, you could try something like cerrosafe. Low melting point, good casting qualities. But it shrinks after sitting a little while. Not good for bullets. Who knows how it does in the barrel on firing. Zinc has been used, no leading but vert light bullets, no expansion, poor penetration.
As for others in the past experimenting, that happened over a period of centuries. Many of the alloys we use today were adapted from existing allots like babbit and Linotype. Someone may have used them solely based on availability and cost.

I never intended to get in a battle over this. I do not know if a viable alternative exists, or can be created. But I am not a foundry with the means nor the knowledge to reinvent the wheel. If someone else chooses to try, go for it. I applaud them for their efforts. But I also hope they have lots of time and money.

[Jim]

Buying lead at market price will always be cheaper than buying bullets by the pound......

Exactly. And adding anything to the mix will only drive up the cost.

[sqlbullet]

Bismuth has many qualities to recommend it for our use.

But, price and malleability are not among them. These are the chief problems.

Zinc, which we all loath, seems as if it may be an alternative as well.

In the mean time, I will follow my colleagues here and hoard.

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

The real battle all of us are fighting everyday is the ever lessoning supply of inexpensive,readily available alloys suitable for bullet making. It's becoming much, much more difficult to locate as many people are now finding out. Gathering and storing as much as we can for ourselves now may be one of the answers for our generation and/or immediate future but........ if we decline to envision the future of something we care so dearly about and say oh well, I got mine, then what example do we set for the very young men and women,next generation, just beginning to display an interest in what we consider to be one of the most rewarding hobby's in the world ? As far as what can be accomplished at the novice level...... the patent office is full of what novice's have been able to do with limited funding and resources. The next best blend or alloy for bullet making may already be a vague idea in somebody's mind and might only need a little encouragment to see it to fruition. I personally see that as one of our responsibilities and am saddened that some may not...... I leave it to you gentleman for your consideration.
Regards,
Mike

[geargnasher]

I thought the sermon was over. What solution do you propose to the op's question?

Gear

[home in oz]

Have to work on my hoard.

[Jim]

Well, if I said something wrong, I do apologize. I promise you, I meant it as nothing but a casual comment.

[btroj]

No problem Jim. It IS a good question, very good actually. I just don't think there is a good answer. I have to veleive that if a viable option existed, outside of solid copper, the major bullet manufacturers would be using it. With states like CA going towards lead free requirements the manufacturers I am sure are looking for something in the right prices range with the qualities needs for bullets.
I HOPE an option exists but he is not enough. This is going to take a major effort on someones part and I do not have the money or expertise to find that answer.

[geargnasher]

As Zinc has been mentioned, I would love for Jbunny and anyone else who has been seriously experimenting with zinc casting to weigh in here, there has been some pretty intense developent going on behind the scenes with custom moulds, casting vibrators, anti-coring alloying, etc. It's doable, "green", and with the right boolit designs would work for hunting. Might be a problem with the cowboy action crowd and other close-range steel shooters, though!

This is about the only viable, affordable alternative, but like alternative motor fuels, requires equipment mods and extra expense.

Gear

[Az Rick]

Interesting thread. I've wondered as a new caster, how long I might be casting. I guess I would buy lead if forced to but like many on this forum, there's just something about getting it cheap or free. I don't know,...making something useful for little cost is very appealing to me. I guess I need to start saving all those pesky zinc ww, maybe they are going to become useful too.
I've learned alot thanks to many of you Guys. I appreciate it. I'll be following this thread closely.

Best, Rick

And to all of you experimenters Good Luck!

[geargnasher]

If all else fails, perhaps we can learn to use the ultra-dense plastic compounds that have been around for a while as X-ray shielding, some of them are more dense than lead. Might have to graduate to injection moulding technology, though!

Gear

[btroj]

Injection moulding might be beyond my means. Are you going to Honcho the group buy for this one?:kidding:

Sadly, I think Gear is right. An alternate is going to be a major leap in technology. Led is so darn easy. Low melting point, good gravity casting, good density, cheap, malleable, and on and on. Replacing these traits is not going to be east and the alternate may not be home workshop friendly.

[Jim]

No lead? No problem! I'm already tooled up and producing (http://fgsp.wordpress.com/2010/12/11/gluelits/)!:bigsmyl2:

[Fishman]

I agree, but with so little luck it is sickening. 42lbs of ww in 2 months! Been told no everywhere I go. So it leaves me thinking what else is there?

I hear you Skytex. I'm in the Waco area too and it took me almost four months of consistent pestering to get one place to SELL me a full bucket of wheelweights for $60. :sad:

contrast that to when I started casting in the mid-90's. I went up to the first tire shop I saw and they GAVE me 6 buckets of wheel weights. I've been working off those ever since and my stash is getting really small.

If you are out of casting material I could be persuaded to part with a few of my "free" ingots to help out a fellow caster. Just PM me. I think what I have is 80% ww 20% lino.

[a.squibload]

Been thinking about sabots, existing technology, also old as the hills.
Wood or plastic, could contain almost anything,
used ball bearings,
glass marbles,
bolts or nails cut to fit.
Might sound like a lot of trouble but then again, look at what we do to make lead boolits!