which would be best

[Bullshop]

I have been reading so much here about what my boolits should look like, casting temp, too frosted, too shiney, too much tin, not enough tin, yada yada yada! What is the trueth?
These boolits weigh 550gn each so before I just waste alot of lead trying which one will shoot best with normal 45/70 loads, say something between trapdoor loads and Marlin loads?
The ones on the top look very shiney with well filled bands with clean sharp edges. The ones on the bottom look galvanised. They are completely frosted and dont look to have the clean sharp edges on the bands.
If I am going to get these to work good which one should I be trying for when casting?
I would realy like to hear everyones opinion on this. There is no right or wrong just opinions.
Then I will give the results of testing so we can see if comon opinion agree's with shooting results.
BIC/BS
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/P1010015.jpg

[Bass Ackward]

I have been reading so much here about what my boolits should look like, casting temp, too frosted, too shiney, too much tin, not enough tin, yada yada yada! What is the trueth?

If I am going to get these to work good which one should I be trying for when casting?
I would realy like to hear everyones opinion on this. There is no right or wrong just opinions.



Dan,

You want the truth? On this board? Oh I see you changed your mind at the bottom of your post and now want opinions. Ok, I can handle opinions. :grin:

Too many variables to tell.

45s have more room for error than 22s. Strong opinions form about this topic based upon individual experience, what material the mold was made from, whether the mix was tin heavy or not, how hard they were being pushed, and the resulting bullet fit to the gun they will be fired in. Even how hard they are pushed may or may not make a difference. One more consideration may be final bullet hardness too if you were water dropping. Frosty slugs could not only be harder, but more uniform in hardness. But if frosting the bullets caused them to stick and not all release at the same time, then some would be noticeably harder than the others. In low rifling height guns this would make a huge difference.

If a rookie caster is molding long bullets like this and traping air in the slugs up toward the base, the frosty bullets may be more uniform anyway even though the bands are slightly sloppy. If you are molding those out of an aluminum mold, you might find different dimensions on the nose, where the frosty might have another .001 or so diameter on the nose as the mold expanded from heat. If you molded those from a steel mold, the frosty bullets may measure .001 smaller than the shiney. So either way, if bullet fit was improved by a larger / smaller nose, the other ones might shoot noticeably better.

If your mold got too hot and your mix was tin heavy, you could lose diameter from tin oxidation also. And the faster you drive any bullet that is defective for what ever the reason, the wider the disparity would be.

My bet would be that you won't see much difference if you seat into the lands with both bullets using light to moderate loads.

[felix]

Yeah, Dan, it would be hard to tell which one would be more accurate unless shot at a speed which would then indicate the difference. That speed/noise would be more than you can possible handle at the target range, so why bother? This is a hunting application, right? You would be able to appreciate the difference in your new Copperhead!!! ... felix

[Bullshop]

BA
Those are from a Lyman mold, and I guess I forgot to mention they are hollow point. They are both straight WW.

Felix
I love you brother, so dont take me wrong when I say WHAT????
Felix I look at you as the Grand Puba of wisdom and knowledg on the board but sometimes you shoot right over my head. Aim a little lower next time.
BIC/BS

[Bass Ackward]

BA
Those are from a Lyman mold, and I guess I forgot to mention they are hollow point. They are both straight WW.
BIC/BS


Dan,

OK. Then I suspect that the diameters of the nose should be @ .001 less on the frosty ones and maybe a little more. On a bore ride design (have I ever told you how I HATE bore ride designs?) that can really affect shooting results. Remember to take a rag and gently wipe the frost off before you measure because there is no stength to the frost coating.

If you had a one diameter design where you could simply size and then seat to the lands with both types, I seriously doubt you could tell the difference. But in order to be fair test, you should weigh and measure each bullet for the test if you really want to compare apples to apples. Make sure you don't have any self inflicted wounds that could alter the results. IMO.

[versifier]

Dan,
You likely have more casting experience than most members of this board put together. But if it's opinions you want, here's mine.

I prefer shiny, well filled boolits with sharp lines - they look nicer and more professional when they're loaded up. Tumble lubed boolits with the cat hair fuzz and pocket lint sticking to them don't win any beauty contests. [smilie=1: On the other hand, the LLA I lube with sticks better on the frosty ones, but casting that hot slows me down. I haven't noticed any big weight or group size differences, or POI shifts either, but I haven't been looking for it especially, either. Nor do I know that my results with .30 cal boolits would translate to those big wonking .45's you have pictured.

If I had a houseful of young and willing testers and a backyard range, it would be interesting to see what would happen with several different calibers and a couple of weights or profiles within each. I suspect that such differences would be almost impossible to measure with handgun boolits at short ranges, but might make themselves much more obvious with rifle boolits at longer 200yd+up ranges.

Does a frosted boolit produce greater friction moving through air? Does it have a different BC than a smooth one of the same weight and profile? At longer ranges, if it did, you should be able to see it by greater boolit drop. It seems like it would have an adverse effect on the accuracy in that case, too.

[beagle]

BS....Looks like you have the old 462560 Thors Hammer HP going there. Good bullet for the big .45s.

I like mine frosted and well filled out. The shiny ones from slower casting/cooler moulds tend to have more internal voids from my experience in tumbling them for moly coating in jeweler's metal media.

There may be dimensional differences and there may not. Based on my casting technique using a BP pot, I tend to BruceB it and get frosty bullets. These have shot great in all of my .45s......the .458 X 2", the .45/70 Marlin and when I had one, the .458 Win Mag.

My vote's for frosty bullets as they're probably more dimensionally correct and have less internal voids./beagle

[felix]

I agree 100 percent with Beagle, especially about the air holes. The metal/mold has to be as hot as possible to minimize them. It takes almost forever for the bubbles to rise to the top before freezing takes place in their local within the metal. ... felix

[Bullshop]

BA
You crack me up buddy!!! You remind me of Mr. Spock on the old star treck analising everything into oblivion. I bet you cant sleep with an unsolved problem on your mind, just cant shut it off RIGHT?
Sometimes your answers to my questions are so complete by the time I get to the end of your answer I have forgotten the question. No offence ment friend just sittin here with a big grin and enjoying the ride, God is good!
OK some more fuel! The boolits are the same weight, the same hardness, the same diameter.
I guess you know that I was not realy looking for help but in my limited capacity am atempting to make a point or more importantly get folks to think.
There is a detail I have left out but buy now you have probably figured it out. Sure would like to hear more opinions. The more we hear the more we can learn.
BIC/BS

[montana_charlie]

If there's no cover charge for joining in, I would just say...

If the bullet weight is coming out at about what your mould is supposed to throw, you probably don't have any voids to worry about. If shiners and frosties weigh the same, the extra heat is not helping anything.

Bullet moulds are carefully cut to make sharp corners and smooth surfaces. The bullet which most closely mirrors that is my choice...and the shiners look the most like mirrors.

I don't know the facts on this, because I don't make frosties, but that grainy surface seems like something which would just love to rub off on the inside of a barrel...
CM

[SharpsShooter]

I make em frosty. Less variation in weight and dimensions. If you don't like the way they look, a quick polish with a simple paper towel makes them resemble their shiny cool cousins.

SS

[454PB]

This kind of reminds me of the debate over boolit weight consistency. Like most all of you, I've spent countless hours sorting boolit batches by weighing them individually, then found that it makes almost no difference in grouping ability. A good visual inspection accomplishes the same results for me.

When using WW alloy, I cull out any that aren't at least a little frosty, and consider that a means of controling the temperature of the boolits as they are dumped from the mould. Any that are still shiney are still warming up.

If I'm using a tin rich alloy like linotype, they don't get frosty unless grossly overheated. This is where the visual inspection is really critical.

As always, the end result is all that matters, and I've found the frosty ones always group better than the shiney ones when using WW aloy.

[Bass Ackward]

I guess you know that I was not realy looking for help but in my limited capacity am atempting to make a point or more importantly get folks to think. BIC/BS


Dan,

<<I would realy like to hear everyones opinion on this. There is no right or wrong just opinions.>>

Trust me, you got mine. :grin:

Spock, out.

[Jon K]

Opinions are opinions, so here's mine, I will choose the bright smooth boolit.
I can't pick the frosted one, only because I've been working with metals all my life, and castings when porous indicates the metal is too hot. In it's working range from x-y whatever metal will pour with even smooth consistancy. Granted that the gases have to vent and escape the mold, but when the metal gets too hot it creates more gases thus making it frosty.
When mine start to frost I toss it back in the pot.

That is only my opinion, and I'm sure some will try to tear it apart. Feel free to jump in and have at it. I won't argue as these are only opinions.

BTW- My background I grew up aound metals trades Blacksmith, Welders, Tinsmith, Mechanical Engineers. Myself retired Machinist.

:castmine:

[powderburnerr]

I think the plate they are setting on would make a good 300 yd target to test them on ............Dean

[David R]

I vote for frosty. I have found from expierence the frosty ones are more consistant. I usually start out hot and turn the pot down once they are coming out frosted. I like a " light galvanized" look.

I don't care how the boolits look. Animals or targets don't know if its a pretty shiny silver boolit or not.

Group size is what counts.

Only one opinion.

David

[45 2.1]

Have you ran a weight variation on both types or shot them at long range. Those are the only factors that should guide you. I don't care for frosty boolits, i've shot enough of them cast at 725 degrees to prove that hotter isn't better.

[felix]

Yes, hotter is not better when the boolits made are well balanced. Just the odds that hotter boolits will have less imbalance, and only odds. Depends dramatically on the alloy used. ... felix

[JohnH]

Prolly a statement of the obvious, but hotter also has to do with the mold temp. The hotter the mold, the less likely that the metal will freeze before the pour is complete. I think that is why we find frosted boolits to be more consistant is weight. But l've also found that generally with a long boolit like this, a frosted boolit will be smaller in diameter in it's mid section than the same boolit poured cooler. At least from double cavities. Is one better or more accurate than the other? I've not ever had a rifle accurate enough that I could tell a difference that I could pin on the boolit itself.

[Bullshop]

Friends!
I have a confession to make. I was not exactly honest starting this thread. It was intended to help our purpose here but not to hurt anyone.
The pictures were of exactly the same boolits, cast at the same time with the same metal,same temp same same same. The shiney ones were wipped off.
Unintensionaly I said some things that touched on some nerves and frustrated some people. For that my sincere appoligies. It was all well intended but as I often do presented it in a rather chaifing manner. Please know that I am not a wordsmith and do struggle with just trying to put thought into word and often do it poorly. To the parties offended I am truely sorry.
The friendships I have made here I cherrish and I hope I have not by my stupidity ended any.
I dont know what more I can do to make it right accept to say openly I made some mistakes and I am sorry!
BIC/BS

[Nrut]

Well Dan I learned something on this thread and that,is you can wipe frosty bullets off and make them shiny[smilie=1: me dumb eh?....I cast most of my bullets out of straight WW(no tin added).....My goal is fill out....some molds require as much as 850*+ to fill out and others fill out at under 700* ...all these temp. according to my Lyman thermometer.........I try to get fill out with as low as temp. as possible so I can cast faster.......:)

[Ricochet]

I'm a water dropper, and I've noticed that I can drop out a boolit on a towel now and then to air cool that'll be frosty as all getout. But the ones dropped in the water are bright and shiny as new money.