NOE 311-165 question

[justingrosche]

Im wondering what OAL some folks are using with this Boolit in 30-30 Win.. With a seating depth of .505 the Boolit is just touching the rifling and I'm seated past my crimp groove by .050
The Boolit is sized to .308. Rifle is a Marlin Micro groove.

[btroj]

I found that in my Marlin micro groove I needed to trim the brass back a bit to keep in the crimp groove and not be hard into the lands. Not a bunch, just 10 or 20 thousandths.
The nose on this bullet is just a hair fatter than the design by RD and it shows in how long the round can be before hitting the lands in some guns.
Trim your brass to what your rifle wants and go shoot. This is an awesome bullet.
But are you sizing to .308? That is awful small for a microgroove. I size mine to .312 and have good results. Most microgroove guns like a fat bullet and .308 is a skinny cast bullet for any 30 cal rifle. This might be a bigger problem for you than the crimp groove issue. You are facing the prospect of mining lead from your barrel and poor accuracy. I would look into your bullet diameter and what you really want.

[excess650]

I have the NOE and HAD the Ranch Dog version. My RD cast .314" vs the .311" of the NOE, so the NOE has a smaller diameter nose. Seated hard into the rifling, I'm also past the crimp groove in my 336CB and 1935 vintage Savage 99 carbine. Neither of these are microgroove, and that is what the boolit was designed for.

Justin,
Seat 'em to touch or just off, and don't bother crimping. Your sized diameter does sound too small.

[justingrosche]

I guess I had too many #'s swimming through my head. Yes, sized .311 not .308.
BTROJ: Thanks for the trimming advice, I hadnt thought of that. These were once fired cases, so they hadnt been clipped yet.

excess650: So the neck tension is enough to keep them from "Prairie Doggin'" inside the case when loaded through the gate?
Nothing worse than a magazine or action full of powder.LOL
Perhaps a Lee fact crimp for this one, if I crimp at all.
Thanks Guys.
Justin

[btroj]

I use a light crimp. Just enough to fold the mouth into the crimp groove. Neck tension should hold em other than that.
I much prefer to use a crimp die after seating. I think it deforms the bullets less. I use a redding profile crimp die, sort of a cross between a standard crimp and a taper crimp.
Give those a shot with 16 to 17 gr of 2400. Shoots well for me, have used it a lot for lever action silhouette. No trouble on the 200 yard rams at all.

[justingrosche]

Is this typical of what you guys see in loading these? I am not used to seeing such a large diameter nose. This is my first custom other than 2 NEI rifle molds that I have yet to load with.

[btroj]

That is how mine look. I make them as long as possible without jamming into the lands. I want to be able to easily close the action but don't want to trim the brass any more than required.
That big fat nose is part of what makes it such a good hunting bullet. Cast them so they are hard enough to drive hard yet expand and hold together and you will ruin the day of many a deer.

[justingrosche]

I cast these with #2 duplicate, so either the plain based or the gas checked would hold together well enough. There seated out at what I think would be the max. Any farther I won't be able to shut the lever without like you said, jamming it into the lands,and compromising the ability to close the bolt.

[excess650]

I don't crimp, and find that a couple of thousandths neck tension will prevent movement. A .311" boolit in a case expanded to .308"-.309" should be plenty tight. Try a few and see.

[btroj]

Sounds like you are good to go.

[justingrosche]

Thank you gentlemen.
Justin

[btroj]

Be sure to let us know how they work out for you.

[geargnasher]

My Savage 219 won't even come close to chambering these when crimped in the groove of trimmed-to-spec cases, but my Marlin Microgroove gobbles them up like candy. I have firelapped the Marlin, so there might be a slight bit of throat erosion there.

What sort of loadings and velocities are you guys using for the PB version?

Gear

[excess650]

What sort of loadings and velocities are you guys using for the PB version?

Gear

I haven't had much opportunity to do testing with the weather not cooperating.

[Shakey Jakey]

I just loaded one for a test and it engraves pretty bad in my 1951 Winchester 94. I do use the LEE FCD though. Can I shorten the OAL to the point of just touching then crimp in front of the groove and be OK?

[geargnasher]

Shakey, that's never a good idea in a tube magazine. You want the case mouth tucked up under a band so the boolit can't be shoved back in the case. Like was mentioned above, trim your cases until a "dummy" round will chamber with the boolit nose just barely touching the lands, and crimp in the groove. It's not like the .30-30 case doesn't have enough neck!

If you just used the FCD to swage the case mouth and form a new crimp groove in the boolit where you want it (which it will do, btw), then that displaced lead has to go somewhere, and it will likely go to making the boolit a bit longer, probably toward the nose, exacerbating your problem.

Gear

[Shakey Jakey]

And, from my understanding, it creates a new problem when the base of the bullet is extended inside the neck. So...it seems a bit of a cobble to use this bullet under these circumstances (but I'll try it).

[btroj]

Don't worry about the base of the bullet being a tad below the bottom of the neck. I have shot lots of rounds like that with no problem. I think this is another of the ole bit a of knowledge that are passed from generation to generation with no real data to back it up. Sort of like microgrooves don't handle lead well.
Trim the cases so you can seat in the crimp groove. Trust me, all will be fine. My 335 is happy that I did. I am happy too as the round cycle smoothly.

Brad

[geargnasher]

Kinda reminds me of the story about the new husband asking his bride why she cut off the end of the roast before cooking it, "because my mother always did it that way" being the answer, and that was the same answer her mother and grandmother had, too. Come to find out her grandmother still had her great-grandmother's only roast pan in her attic, and no one had bothered to find out until now that the reason the whole thing started was that the pan was so small, the end had to be cut off the roast to make it fit!

Gear

[btroj]

And that Gear is why I don't like the "rules" in acting or shooting cast. Nobody knows why they came about or when, they are just the rules.

Great example.

Brad

[selmerfan]

My Savage 219 won't even come close to chambering these when crimped in the groove of trimmed-to-spec cases, but my Marlin Microgroove gobbles them up like candy. I have firelapped the Marlin, so there might be a slight bit of throat erosion there.

What sort of loadings and velocities are you guys using for the PB version?

Gear

Keep in mind that RD designed this boolit specifically for the 336, which I'm sure you're aware of.

[Doby45]

So Gear, why are you cutting roasts off the end of your boolits? :)

[geargnasher]

Cuz sombody over at AR told me they could shoot 1/2" groups at 500 yards going 3000 fps with a plain-based boolit cast of range scrap if they cut the nose off and glued it on the back! :kidding:

By the way, I did some "exterpolation" and worked up an experimental load with my Marlin and the PB version of this boolit, no filler. 9.3 grains of HS6, no filler, Felix Lube, 13.4 BHN air-cooled WW plus a pinch of tin, nice popgun load, 1-3/4" ten shot group at 50 yards, nice clean bore and no leading. Chrony is still in NY getting fixed for the second time, really wish I had the velocity numbers here to compare to Unique loads. Bumped it up to 10.0 grains, groups opened up to 5" and I got some throat leading going a couple of inches up the barrel, it cleaned out with just a quick couple of swipes of the bronze wool wrapped around a brush took care of it.

Longshot is next to try.

Gear

[btroj]

Gear, you should know better. The stuff you read over at AR only work in black rifles! I am disappointed that you did not realize that.

Never thought of using HS6 for rifle loads. Have you used it in many other cartridges? I would assume you use it in place of Unique. I am a die hard 2400 guy. Gives me velocities in the range I like and tends to work well for me. Then again most of my rifle shooting is 45-70 or 30-30 which limits my range of powders I might use.

Brad

[selmerfan]

btroj, what kind of 2400 loads are you using in your .30-30 with this boolit and what velocities are you getting? I have the Ranch Dog 6 cav mold and am running it through a Marlin 336. I've used 4895 and RL7 so far, but just picked up a pound of 2400 for my .30-06 and the 311299. Thanks!

[btroj]

I settled on 17 gr of 2400 with the GC version of the NOE 311165 RD. I started at 15 and worked up. More than 17 seems to be a bit higher in pressure than I want, just a gut feeling.

This load shoots very well in my early 70s 336. It is a microgroove. I size to .311.

Give 2400 a shot. I really like it in my 30-30.

Brad

[geargnasher]

I use 4350 almost exclusively for my .30-'06 bolt guns and cast boolits, 748 or RX7 for my .30-30s with checked boolits (water-quenched or heat-treated 50/50 WW/Pure @ 18-ish bhn for most of that), just my approach.

Gear

[btroj]

Have not used much re7 with cast other than in 45-70.
I have settled on 2400 as I have lots of it and it seems to work. It certainly is not the only, or "best", answer. It is just what I use.

I dis go to re15 when I used cast for deer. Wanted more velocity that I felt comfortably getting from 2400. I view 2400 as a good powder in the 1400 to 1700 fps range. Over or under that other powders are much better.

Brad

[selmerfan]

gear,
I use 4350 in my .30-06 with j-bullets. What kind of charges are you using in your .30-06 with cast boolits? I'll be running the 311165 or 311299 boolit.

[geargnasher]

Nothing wrong with 2400, it's a great powder, and I wouldn't use anything else in the .44 Magnum unless loading milder stuff. I just don't like certain things about it. One of them is the dirty gritty filth it leaves behind unless the load is running near or at 35K cup.

My approach to building a cast boolit rifle load (unless it's a pistol caliber or plinker load) is to do what I would with jacketed bullets: Make a rifle out of it. That means get velocity up to peak accuracy levels for the boolits at longer ranges (100+yards, often as far as 300). It's a rifle, I don't cut its legs out from under it by loading 1/3 case of pistol powder and flinging it downrange unless I'm purely shooting for fun. If I need a reduced load for a particular purpose, I work one up, but I use the smallest case for the caliber that I own, or use filled brass. Sometimes I really long for a nice .32-20 carbine! Sometimes the job at hand requires a .30-'06 pushing a malleable boolit at 2,250 fps into 1.5 MOA at 200 yards consistently, and under field conditions, and that requires (for me, at least) real, honest-to-goodness rifle powder.

Selmerfan, all I can say is I use boolits heavier than 180 grains, and use enough 4350 to get me to between 2200 and 2300 fps our of my 22" ten-twist sporter. Years ago, when I had access to a different boolit than I have now, and had a friend with all the gadgets prep my brass for me to fit my chamber I was able to hold some very impressive accuracy out to nearly 2700 fps, but it required a boolit alloy not suitable for most hunting. It was just a pet project of mine that got out of hand! Nowdays I have different goals, and work more within the practical limits of the hunting boolits I shoot most. If you try 4350, the exact load and velocity that works for you will be different than the one that works for me depending on the billion variables, but it's easy to find the sweet spot if you work up carefully. Jacketed data of the same weight is a good place to start.

Gear

[btroj]

I suppose that I do reduce the effectiveness of my 30-30 by using 2400 but since I don't shoot much past 100 yards with it the velocity is not real important to me. It does leave a fair amount of fouling but that doesn't seem to be causing me any trouble. Like I said, when I wanted to hunt with cast in the 30-30 I went to re15. I don't like to push the envelope with pistol powders. Good way to get into trouble.

O have not shot cast much in other bottleneck cases in a while. I tended to use 2400 then too. Velocity was never of much importance to me. If I was trying to get groups at ranged past 100 I would certainly look at other powders.

This shows why I dislike the "must have powder " threads. Too many different ideas on what works well. I could see what powder for 1500 fps in this cartridge, but must have in general is too vague. Some powdered may work well in a specific application but if that is not what I am interested in why would I want that powder?

Pick a powder that works for what you need. Each powder has a velocity/pressure range where it works well, get outside of that window and you could get in trouble.

Brad

[selmerfan]

Gear, thanks for the insight. I wasn't asking for a specific load, just a weight range, but if you're using jacketed data, I can obviously use that also. I run 57 gr. IMR 4350 behind 165 gr. jacketed in my .30-06, and my goal this fall is to take my deer with cast 311299 HP boolits instead. I'll be exploring 2400, H380, and 4350 for this purpose, maybe even some Varget.

[btroj]

What velocity is your goal? For 1500 to 1700 fps go with 2400. For 1800 to 2300 I would think Varget would be a good choice as it does well with reduced charges. Keep the 4350 for 2300 fps and above.
Gear may have a different idea about this but that is certainly what I would do. Make sure that HP is cast so it can expand and stay together for good penetration. This is harder to do at higher velocities. Got in trouble with a 350 HP in 45-70 on deer last fall. I got the deer but one shot did not penetrate the shoulder blade at all, found bullet in neck. It had lost almost half it's weight.

Brad

[geargnasher]

Gear, thanks for the insight. I wasn't asking for a specific load, just a weight range, but if you're using jacketed data, I can obviously use that also. I run 57 gr. IMR 4350 behind 165 gr. jacketed in my .30-06, and my goal this fall is to take my deer with cast 311299 HP boolits instead. I'll be exploring 2400, H380, and 4350 for this purpose, maybe even some Varget.

I'm not using jacketed data for my .30-'06 loads, I'm within the range of jacketed data for my cast loads, best way I could indicate a place where you could safely start. The data I used to work up the load were targets, a chronograph, a boolit trap, and butcher paper (for lube dispersion diagnosis at short range). Most combinations that are decent to start with will have a "sweet spot" in a particular gun that is a VERY narrow window, the challenge is to find it. I settled on IMR 4350 due to the loading density and the pressure curve in MY rifle. The window was about .3 grains either way, and small differences in case tension made more difference than anything. You could actually tell by the report of the rifle when it was happy. This was also my first experience with lot differences in powders.

As far as powder selection, choose the powder that will do the job you require of it. How to discover this? Read, shoot, read, shoot, maybe get a ballistics program. Wish I was smart enough to own one. :coffeecom

I'm with Brad on the alloys and HPs, but I'll take it one step further: Ditch the hollow point and use a good FN design of the right alloy. At velocities from 1500 fps up they will mushroom better than a HP and hold more weight. The trick is the right alloy. I use "mild" alloy (WW cut with pure with a half-percent or so of tin added) which I then heat treat or water quench (depends on mood). I wish I'd known to do that years ago, only been doing it for a couple of years (learned about it here on this board). Diluted WW work great heat-treated because they are tough enough to shoot at a decent velocity with good accuracy for hunting and not explode when hitting bone, but are malleable enough to mushroom nicely and often don't over-penetrate. This is NOT gospel, just the way I do it after a lot of reading and shooting.

One more thing on velocities: If I know through direct experimentation that I get the best groups from a given boolit at a given velocity or several multiples/divisions therof, then I pick the one nearest where I think I want to be and find the powder that is most consistent at that velocity. Maybe a flawed algorithm due to my ignorance of advanced load development, but that's generally the way I approach HV or hunting load development. When I get a really good load doped out, I do penetration/expansion tests. Then I go hunting, and often the results blow all the theories because each and every shot on game is unique. On the subject of velocity, it isn't the only indicator of course, or even the best indicator of performance, it is the combination of excellent internal AND external ballistics that most often leads to the best and most reliable accuracy and performance.

I'm still interested in other's results from the PB version of this boolit in .30-30, I'm trying for the best possible accuracy out to 50 yards max, economy is a consideration, and the 13.5-ish bhn alloy I usually use has a practical leading/accuracy limit of about 1400 fps so far in this gun, regardless of powder burn rate, no need to go faster. 1300 fps out of my Marlin carbine would be fine, I'd like to stay supersonic all the way to 50 yards or so with this one, though. PLEASE don't tell me to use Trail Boss :-D. I know, Red Dot or Unique. Anyone try Universal?

Gear

[btroj]

I don't think Trailboss would get you anywhere near 1400 fps so I wont recommend it! I have never "maxed out" a load with TB but seems most of the time I get around 1100 or so at best.

Never tried Universal in anything so I can't say. I hate to be a bandwagon guy but this sounds like a good time to use, yep, Red dot. I wonder if a light charge or 231 or Bullseye would work here? I know the older Lyman manuals frequently listed them. Only advantage I could see to Red dot os the bulkiness of it. Don't know about you but I don't like using a filler. Never had a problem with them but I like to avoid extra steps in loading.

Good luck on your quest.

Brad

[mpbarry1]

have any of you tried imr 3031 w this bullet? that is the first powder i was thinking of trying. I'm thinking velocities up to 2000 fps with the gas checked version out of an early 70s 30-30 winchester. gonna cast some up tonight.

[StratsMan]

OK MPBarry... you have my attention... I have some of these boolits just waiting to be sized and a new pound of 3031... AND, a same era Win94 to shoot them... time to get a 30-30 shellplate for the Dillon....