My homemade black powder

[Graysmoke]

I don’t want to seem thick, but I have been trying to figure the density of my pucks and never come up with anything near what everyone is stating. Tried what was said in the posts but goofed up some how and came out with some 19 number and quit.

[Nobade]

I just made my first batch of golden powder tonight. I spread the crumbly dough out on plastic wrap to let it cool. It does get extremely hard! I ground some of it up in my coffee grinder to the consistency of fine gunpowder. Now what? Is it ready to use? Or does it need to rest or get baked in the oven or anything else?

I did light some and it burns very aggressively but nowhere near as fast as black powder. It does make a lot of smoke. This is going to be interesting to play with.

[Nobade]

I don’t want to seem thick, but I have been trying to figure the density of my pucks and never come up with anything near what everyone is stating. Tried what was said in the posts but goofed up some how and came out with some 19 number and quit.

Did you measure the volume of the puck (pi R squared times height) then weigh it and divide the weight by the volume?

[HWooldridge]

I just made my first batch of golden powder tonight. I spread the crumbly dough out on plastic wrap to let it cool. It does get extremely hard! I ground some of it up in my coffee grinder to the consistency of fine gunpowder. Now what? Is it ready to use? Or does it need to rest or get baked in the oven or anything else?

I did light some and it burns very aggressively but nowhere near as fast as black powder. It does make a lot of smoke. This is going to be interesting to play with.

Nobade, do you have access to a chronograph for velocity testing?

[dondiego]

I didn't like the sifted powder, I found the grains irregular and fragile to the touch, turning into powder easily. I make discs without worrying about the density, just to make the grains hard and classify them in the sieves. In addition to being more professional visually, right?

Ps:my BP is staying around 1 to 1.1g/cc. Interestingly, I read somewhere that bp weighs 16gn/cc.

16 grains per CC is not much different from 1 GRAM per CC since a gram is 15.43 grains.

[Nobade]

Nobade, do you have access to a chronograph for velocity testing?
I do. At least it used to work if I can get some batteries.

[DoubleBuck]

Graysmoke
Density can be confusing. You're not the first one confused by it. It is the weight of the puck divided by Pi times the radius squared of your puck, times the thickness of the puck. If you want to get Grams per CC, then use those metrics in measurement.
Here's a simple conversion for metric to inch conversions, if you need them https://duckduckgo.com/?t=piriform&q=inches+to+cm+conversion&ia=web
And here is a cylinder volume calculator, which you can use Metric or SAE/Troy numbers: https://www.omnicalculator.com/math/cylinder-volume. This is what I use
So if your Puck is 2 inches in Diameter (5.08 CM), the Radius is 1 inch (2.54 CM) So, Radius squared is 1"x1"=1". Times Pi is 3.1416 which is 3.1416 square inches. Or, in Metric it is 2.54CM times 2.54CM= 6.4516 CM times 3.1416=20.2683 CM squared. Now let's say your puck is 1/4" thick. That is .250 inches, or .635 CM. So 3.1416 Square inches times .250" thickness = .7854 Cubic inches. Or, 20.2683 CM times .635CM= 12.8703 Cubic Centimeters.
If you weigh anything but grams, you will have to convert that measurement to grams, or use ounces per cubic inch or pounds per cubic inch, Etc., as your density.
So, finally, you take the weight of the puck and let's just say it weighs 20 grams. Take 20 grams and divide it by our 12.8703 CC's. And that equals 1.554 grams per CC Density. The second calculator above is very handy. You can click the parameters and plug in your numbers.
I hope I didn't confuse you with the inches measurements, but that is what I use and have to convert to metric. All of my measurement devices are in inches or decimals thereof. It would be simpler for me, to use Pounds per Square inch, or ounces per square inch. 1.554 grams per CC equals .8983 ounces per Cubic Inch, in case you're wondering. That comes from here: https://www.omnicalculator.com/math/cylinder-volume

[Sandro_ventania]

Sandro;
You're saying your screened powder is running about 1 to 1.1 Grams per CC?
From everything I've read on powder measures and densities of Commercial powder, I think they both run about 1.7 Grams per CC. That is supposed to be where powder measures are calculated to and the standard density of Commercial Black Powder.
Not sure about the 16 grains to the CC on powder. If your screened powder is running 1 to 1.1 G/CC, that is pretty close. On pucks, I would think that number would be much higher. 1.7 G/CC density would be 26.24 Grains per CC.
I measured wrong. I measured 1cc of 2F and thought. I'm going to do it the right way, I'm going to measure the disc and weigh the disc.

[Sandro_ventania]

I just made my first batch of golden powder tonight. I spread the crumbly dough out on plastic wrap to let it cool. It does get extremely hard! I ground some of it up in my coffee grinder to the consistency of fine gunpowder. Now what? Is it ready to use? Or does it need to rest or get baked in the oven or anything else?

I did light some and it burns very aggressively but nowhere near as fast as black powder. It does make a lot of smoke. This is going to be interesting to play with.

It's ready to use! The one I make is as fast as BP or more! Test the cooking time, the longer it takes, the more golden it becomes... until it turns caramel colored... after which it catches fire. Also try varying the proportions of nitrate and acid slightly. And it really creates a lot of smoke, but have you noticed it cleaner?

[DoubleBuck]

Sandro;
It's all good. Some people, (Indian Joe) uses the weigh and measure method, or loaded density; instead of density at the puck. They will both basically tell you the same thing. There are small loaded density variances by the grades, but will tell you if total density is below, at or above, factory density, and measure/weight density. I just use the puck densities, for my own satisfaction.

[indian joe]

I didn't like the sifted powder, I found the grains irregular and fragile to the touch, turning into powder easily. I make discs without worrying about the density, just to make the grains hard and classify them in the sieves. In addition to being more professional visually, right?

Ps:my BP is staying around 1 to 1.1g/cc. Interestingly, I read somewhere that bp weighs 16gn/cc.

I use 2% good dextrin - the screened stuff is holding up well - 2018 vintage and I cart it around to shoots in a powder horn just like ya would with bought stuff - the thing I like about it is - easy - and much easier to get a good percentage of FFF - not nearly as much lost as fines and dust.

Everybody is doing this simple basic process just a little different than everybody else it seems

[brian1]

It depends on what you consider best. Black powder is a fast powder that ignites very easily, but it is dirty. Of the kno3-based gunpowders, I like the golden powder, which is 60% kno3 and 40% ascorbic acid (vitamin C). Very easy to make at home and produces very clean gunpowder. The power is similar to black powder.

My wife buys citric acid powder from Amazon for cleaning. Is citric acid the same thing as ascorbic acid, or should I look for ascorbic acid explicitly?

[Nobade]

It's ready to use! The one I make is as fast as BP or more! Test the cooking time, the longer it takes, the more golden it becomes... until it turns caramel colored... after which it catches fire. Also try varying the proportions of nitrate and acid slightly. And it really creates a lot of smoke, but have you noticed it cleaner?

Thanks! It didn't take long to cook and is not gold but rather tan colored. Do I need to use more water, or reduce the heat to get it to cook longer? Once it turned into dough I couldn't stir it any longer so I figured it was done. I'll keep playing with it.

[Nobade]

My wife buys citric acid powder from Amazon for cleaning. Is citric acid the same thing as ascorbic acid, or should I look for ascorbic acid explicitly?

Definitely not the same thing. I bought a bag of "pure vitamin C" from Amazon. I just looked for the cheapest kind they had that was pure. It's called Micro Ingredients brand. $20 for one kilogram.

I figure if my powder experiments don't pan out I can eat what's left.

[indian joe]

My wife buys citric acid powder from Amazon for cleaning. Is citric acid the same thing as ascorbic acid, or should I look for ascorbic acid explicitly?

not the same thing

[Sandro_ventania]

Hey guys. I made two records today. Their measurements... 54.1mm in diameter and 4.2mm in height, weighing 20g. The other disc was 54.3mm x 6mm, weighing 27.5g. I think I miscalculated, because it gave me 2g/cc...wow!

[Sandro_ventania]

Thanks! It didn't take long to cook and is not gold but rather tan colored. Do I need to use more water, or reduce the heat to get it to cook longer? Once it turned into dough I couldn't stir it any longer so I figured it was done. I'll keep playing with it.
You can even add 5% iron oxide... creating the crimson powder. I've never tested it, but they say it greatly increases the Powder's speed.

[Sandro_ventania]

My wife buys citric acid powder from Amazon for cleaning. Is citric acid the same thing as ascorbic acid, or should I look for ascorbic acid explicitly?
It's not the same thing, but it has a good chance of working very well!! Ascorbic acid is C6H8O6, citric acid is C6H8O7. One more oxygen molecule can be a positive thing! If I had citric acid right now, I would test it immediately!!!

[2TM101]

If you have some commercial powder you can use that for a basis. Use a big measure like 10cc. 10cc of swiss or goex should weigh 17 grams. You can use that to make sure you are measuing it correctly.

Then weigh 10cc of your own stuff. If you do the riced method without compression you will get something like 1.2 or even less. I have a 40mm die and a 6t press, I get about 1.6 on the first pucking.

Its more than enough for the Sulfur to act as the binder with no Destrin needed. At the end of the Corning stage a good bit of it has returned to being Meal powder and it goes through the puck & corn process again. After the second compression I make it to 1.7. I mix it in with the first batch and get an overall density of maybe 1.65,which is good enough for me.

[2TM101]

https://pyrodata.com/PyroGuide/index.php%5Etitle=Golden_Powder_(Uncooked).htm

I use this but add a pinch of Dextrin just to make the pucks hold together as it never gets wet. Its basically the equivalent of green mix.

The Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) wasn't discovered until 1912 and could not be produced until 1928, a full half century after smokeless powder. And it still costs twice as much as what it is (mostly) replacing. Making this an expensive replacement for an already obsolete product. But still about half the residue and you can use smokeless powder bullet lube.

[Sandro_ventania]

If you have some commercial powder you can use that for a basis. Use a big measure like 10cc. 10cc of swiss or goex should weigh 17 grams. You can use that to make sure you are measuing it correctly.

Then weigh 10cc of your own stuff. If you do the riced method without compression you will get something like 1.2 or even less. I have a 40mm die and a 6t press, I get about 1.6 on the first pucking.

Its more than enough for the Sulfur to act as the binder with no Destrin needed. At the end of the Corning stage a good bit of it has returned to being Meal powder and it goes through the puck & corn process again. After the second compression I make it to 1.7. I mix it in with the first batch and get an overall density of maybe 1.65,which is good enough for me.

If you or someone can measure 10cc (a 10ml syringe is equivalent) of commercial black powder and weigh it... because they say 1.7g/cc but how is the measurement done, on the compacted disc or on the processed grain?

[Sandro_ventania]

https://pyrodata.com/PyroGuide/index.php%5Etitle=Golden_Powder_(Uncooked).htm

I use this but add a pinch of Dextrin just to make the pucks hold together as it never gets wet. Its basically the equivalent of green mix.

The Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) wasn't discovered until 1912 and could not be produced until 1928, a full half century after smokeless powder. And it still costs twice as much as what it is (mostly) replacing. Making this an expensive replacement for an already obsolete product. But still about half the residue and you can use smokeless powder bullet lube.
Do you make the dry mix? Try cooking with a little water as explained in previous messages. There is no need for binders or pressing a disc, as when cooked it forms a very hard stone, just grind and sieve.

[dtknowles]

https://pyrodata.com/PyroGuide/index.php%5Etitle=Golden_Powder_(Uncooked).htm

I use this but add a pinch of Dextrin just to make the pucks hold together as it never gets wet. Its basically the equivalent of green mix.

The Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) wasn't discovered until 1912 and could not be produced until 1928, a full half century after smokeless powder. And it still costs twice as much as what it is (mostly) replacing. Making this an expensive replacement for an already obsolete product. But still about half the residue and you can use smokeless powder bullet lube.

Since it is replacing sulfur and charcoal, what are you using for a price basis? Charcoal on the market is not very good and not cheap.
Tim

[DoubleBuck]

Hey guys. I made two records today. Their measurements... 54.1mm in diameter and 4.2mm in height, weighing 20g. The other disc was 54.3mm x 6mm, weighing 27.5g. I think I miscalculated, because it gave me 2g/cc...wow!
Sandro;
First of all, those are phenomenal density numbers! I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind. What did you use for charcoal? Are the pucks damp, or dried? And, what was your pressing method? Meaning, did you press and wait, and press more, or press and reload? If you didn't miscalculate, you definitely can get all the density you need. Guys shooting cartridges will be knocking on your door, begging....

[Sandro_ventania]

Sandro;
First of all, those are phenomenal density numbers! I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind. What did you use for charcoal? Are the pucks damp, or dried? And, what was your pressing method? Meaning, did you press and wait, and press more, or press and reload? If you didn't miscalculate, you definitely can get all the density you need. Guys shooting cartridges will be knocking on your door, begging....

I'm experimenting with some woods. I have 3 batches of powders ready with different charcoal. One made from toilet paper, one from Embaúba (Cecropia peltata) similar to Balsa and one from Grandiúva (Trema micrantha), this one is promising, I chose it because it has an interesting popular name...gunpowder wood! The records that I weighed and measured are hers. My way of pressing is no different from yours...I use a 10 ton press...I moisten the powder until the dust stops (I weighed the powder while it was still dry to have an exact measurement, without the water). I make thin discs, one at a time, press them, leave them for 2 minutes and remove them from the press. I have ground and sieved the disc as soon as it comes out of the press, there is less dust left and drying it in granulated form is much faster. If you have any questions, feel free to ask, I will be happy to answer! I might try to make a video next time, some might think I don't know how to use a caliper.

[DoubleBuck]

Sandro;
There are so many woods, you may have got one that will do just what you say. I've heard of pressing a 2.0 density puck, but my highest has been about 1.8. For most of the woods I have used, it's hard to get above 1.7. Keep us informed. It sounds like you've got something good happening!
I was asking about the wet puck, because that would make the puck heavier, but if you had the dry weight, then that is ruled out.

[Sandro_ventania]

Sandro;
There are so many woods, you may have got one that will do just what you say. I've heard of pressing a 2.0 density puck, but my highest has been about 1.8. For most of the woods I have used, it's hard to get above 1.7. Keep us informed. It sounds like you've got something good happening!
I was asking about the wet puck, because that would make the puck heavier, but if you had the dry weight, then that is ruled out.

today I measured 10 cc of 2F powder using a syringe as a measure. I will post the photos. If they can do the same test, the comparison would be interesting.

https://i.ibb.co/JCx7gv7/IMG-20240112-171517927.jpg (https://ibb.co/DLGCT9C)

https://i.ibb.co/BK007g2/IMG-20240112-172220141-HDR.jpg (https://ibb.co/LhVVqCd)

[indian joe]

sandro
10cc of Goex 5FA =10.67
10cc of my FFG (pucked) = 9.75
10cc of my FFFg (screened) = 8.45

I wouldnt entirely trust any of our measurements as comparison, after all we are using a 10cent syringe - mine is a smaller diameter 10cc total - yours a 20cc or 50cc? - eyeball filling to the mark? I like the comparison back to commercial powder with known performance - but even that has a decent margin for error

my FFG 91% of the Goex weight
a little surprised at the screened powder density reading 79% but I have worked on that and it looks good powder (my screened is always noticebly darker than pucked)

looks like you have at least equalled any commercial with your density - lets see how velocity per grain goes?
(Wano is more dense than Goex but energetically inferior by a good margin)

I am watching the toilet paper thing but the hybrid willow is working good for me and its right there out the window - I am a kind of aint broke dont fix it person - dont mind making powder but way more fun shooting it...................................

[DoubleBuck]

Sandro;
I would be glad to do it for you. But all I have is 3fff and fines. I have no commercial or 2ff to compare for you.
Indian Joe;
I am watching the toilet paper thing but the hybrid willow is working good for me and its right there out the window
Joe; the TP is on THIS side of the window! You don't even have to get cold, (Or, in your case, hot) to get it! While you're setting there "lookin' out the window" at your willow, you can figure out how you're gonna approach the problem at hand....
Then the light bulb comes on and, sure enough, TP's the answer! To the problem at hand, and the powder shortage, too!!!
Same sing. Same sing, Joe. Same damn sing....

[Sandro_ventania]

sandro
10cc of Goex 5FA =10.67
10cc of my FFG (pucked) = 9.75
10cc of my FFFg (screened) = 8.45

I wouldnt entirely trust any of our measurements as comparison, after all we are using a 10cent syringe - mine is a smaller diameter 10cc total - yours a 20cc or 50cc? - eyeball filling to the mark? I like the comparison back to commercial powder with known performance - but even that has a decent margin for error

my FFG 91% of the Goex weight
a little surprised at the screened powder density reading 79% but I have worked on that and it looks good powder (my screened is always noticebly darker than pucked)

looks like you have at least equalled any commercial with your density - lets see how velocity per grain goes?
(Wano is more dense than Goex but energetically inferior by a good margin)

I am watching the toilet paper thing but the hybrid willow is working good for me and its right there out the window - I am a kind of aint broke dont fix it person - dont mind making powder but way more fun shooting it...................................
I'll post a photo of my 3F made from toilet paper. My syringe is 20ml. For complete impartiality, I say that I added the powder and tapped the table a few times to accommodate the grains.
https://i.ibb.co/VBqWVtS/IMG-20240112-171554998.jpg (https://ibb.co/ggRMy3T)

FFFg toilette paper 10cc

[Sandro_ventania]

Definitely not the same thing. I bought a bag of "pure vitamin C" from Amazon. I just looked for the cheapest kind they had that was pure. It's called Micro Ingredients brand. $20 for one kilogram.

I figure if my powder experiments don't pan out I can eat what's left.

Nobade, I was thinking today, you said that perhaps you used too little water to make the Golden powder... The amount of water has to be enough so that when it boils, it dissolves the components... this way the mixture will be completely homogeneous, the integration between the two components will be at the molecular level like this! It would be a dream if coal and sulfur also dissolved in water to mix at this level with nitrate.

[HWooldridge]

I'll post a photo of my 3F made from toilet paper. My syringe is 20ml. For complete impartiality, I say that I added the powder and tapped the table a few times to accommodate the grains.
https://i.ibb.co/VBqWVtS/IMG-20240112-171554998.jpg (https://ibb.co/ggRMy3T)

FFFg toilette paper 10cc

I realize the photo is magnified but those grains look really huge for 3F. More like 1F or cannon powder.

[LAGS]

A question for you guys that are trying the Toilet Paper for Charcoal.
Has anyone tried making charcoal out of Kleenex or other Facial Tissues.
They look like they could make good charcoal like the toilet paper does.

[Sandro_ventania]

I realize the photo is magnified but those grains look really huge for 3F. More like 1F or cannon powder.
true! But that's not a dish, it's just the lid of a mayonnaise jar. My 2F is 16 to 20 mesh, 3F is 20 to 50 mesh, and 4F is 50 to 80 mesh.

[Sandro_ventania]

A question for you guys that are trying the Toilet Paper for Charcoal.
Has anyone tried making charcoal out of Kleenex or other Facial Tissues.
They look like they could make good charcoal like the toilet paper does.

Of the experiments I want to do, one of them is to put raw cotton in the ball mill until it turns into dust and use it instead of charcoal. I believe Kleenex paper will be similar to toilet paper. Let's continue experimenting... one day we'll discover the philosopher's stone... lol!

[dtknowles]

sandro
10cc of Goex 5FA =10.67
10cc of my FFG (pucked) = 9.75
10cc of my FFFg (screened) = 8.45

I wouldnt entirely trust any of our measurements as comparison, after all we are using a 10cent syringe - mine is a smaller diameter 10cc total - yours a 20cc or 50cc? - eyeball filling to the mark? I like the comparison back to commercial powder with known performance - but even that has a decent margin for error

my FFG 91% of the Goex weight
a little surprised at the screened powder density reading 79% but I have worked on that and it looks good powder (my screened is always noticebly darker than pucked)
.......

Using the syringe method I get the following densities

GOEX FFFg 1.04
GOEX FFFg (screened to remove fines) 1.10 g/cc
My Meal Powder (right out of the ball mill, cedar charcoal) 0.89 g/cc

I don't have any pucked or screened at the moment, I shot it all up.

Tim

[Nobade]

Of the experiments I want to do, one of them is to put raw cotton in the ball mill until it turns into dust and use it instead of charcoal. I believe Kleenex paper will be similar to toilet paper. Let's continue experimenting... one day we'll discover the philosopher's stone... lol!

The Youtube guy just did a video using cotton balls. His conclusion was that it worked pretty well, almost as well as the toilet paper but was considerably more expensive. It ended up costing more than a pound of Swiss.

[Nobade]

Nobade, I was thinking today, you said that perhaps you used too little water to make the Golden powder... The amount of water has to be enough so that when it boils, it dissolves the components... this way the mixture will be completely homogeneous, the integration between the two components will be at the molecular level like this! It would be a dream if coal and sulfur also dissolved in water to mix at this level with nitrate.

I will try that. I used enough water to end up with a cloudy liquid that got clear for a little while then got cloudy again then got solid. You say it is supposed to boil while it's a liquid? Mine didn't really do that but did start boiling as it dried out.

I loaded one round of 44 special this morning with that powder to see what it would do. It felt pretty weak, not anywhere near as powerful as black powder but it did fire, there was almost no fouling, and no pressure signs. I have been reading that the fouling will quickly destroy your brass but doesn't bother steel so I cleaned the fired case with a swab before I left. (had to travel this weekend.) When I have time I'll make another batch of powder, and shoot some of both over the chronograph.
I saw an old article by Mike Belliveu (sp?) testing APP powder. He said it was weak and inaccurate in handguns but good enough for cowboy action. But in rifles it worked as well as black powder. Maybe it needs more time to burn. I will continue experimenting once the weather gets a little nicer.

Here's the link...
https://www.mikebeliveau.com/magazine-archive/smoothbore-shootout-8sfyb-35yll#:~:text=The%20fouling%20is%20wildly%20corros ive,soapy%20water%20quickly%20after%20firing.

[HamGunner]

Looking at the syringe method of measuring powder volume by cc, I decided to give it a try to see why some of the weights posted seemed to be out of line to me. I had several 10 cc syringes on my shelf that were not used the last time I gave my dogs their shots. But try as I could, I just could not pour the same weight measurement two times in a row. Even tried it for an average and decided that it was such an inaccurate way of measuring that i gave up just pouring into the syringe.

Loaded up my Lyman 55 powder measure with Goex 3F and opened it up until it was throwing 10cc volume with the same weight consistently every stroke and screwed it down. I weighed the throw and recorded it. I then emptied the measure without changing the setting and loaded it up to exactly the same height with my Sassafras, Great Value TP, and just for the heck of it, Pyrodex RS (FFG equivalent). I ran several drops with each until they were finally consistent volume as well as weight from throw to throw and weighed them all.

Goex 3F (20 years old) weighed 155 gr. or 10.04 g. = 100% density or the very same as TIM's (dtknowles)
Great Value TP 3F surprised me at 144 gr. or 9.33 g. = 92.9% density
Sassafras 3F dropped less this time at 142 gr. or 9.20 g. = 91.6% density
Pyrodex RS 2F is really light weight at 107 gr. or 7.06 g. = 70% density. Of course, Pyrodex is not Black Powder.

Apparently the way I had always been comparing my volume to weight was flawed, because before, I found my Sassafras to be heavier than the TP. Perhaps this TP powder will give more surprises once I get to go chronograph all these powders. It might just beat out Sassafras, which is my favorite so far. Velocity and cleanliness tests will hopefully be done as soon as this Polar weather takes a hike back up North where it belongs.

[DoubleBuck]

Sandro;
I took three weights of each of these and averaged them, just to possibly give a more accurate measurement. I used a 10 CC syringe, and tapped them down, several times.
Cottonelle Super Strong TP 3fff tumbled 12 hours 1.597 Density = 10.623 Grams.
Cottonelle Super Strong TP 3fff not tumbled Density 1.597 = 9.94 Grams. Lots of dust in this powder.
Tree Of Heaven 3fff 1.7 Density one year old, not tumbled = 10.698 Grams. This powder is still looking good and is not very dusty as compared to the one above.

[Sandro_ventania]

I think it's the amount of powder I press at a time that is making me achieve a high density rate. My press is 10 tons, my mold is only 2 inches in diameter and I press approximately 20 grams at a time. If I increase the amount of powder, the density decreases.

[DoubleBuck]

I think you nailed it. I've always found that if I really want high density, I need to just do one puck at a time. I've never been able to press a column as dense as a single. I use a 2" die and a 20 ton H frame press. You have achieved some great numbers, as far as I can tell. If it has good burn qualities, I think you have a definite winner.

[indian joe]

I think it's the amount of powder I press at a time that is making me achieve a high density rate. My press is 10 tons, my mold is only 2 inches in diameter and I press approximately 20 grams at a time. If I increase the amount of powder, the density decreases.

I am lazy or impatient (take your pick) as a 1948 vintage thats unlikely to change any time soon.
Die is 3inch, 20 ton truck jack, I press 500 grams at a time in 100 gram discs ....chronograph and target tellin a good story

45/75 Uberti with a 330grain gets neat 1500FPS and Extreme Spread under 10FPS for a ten shot string with NO clean between shots .......I think it aint broke ............

[DoubleBuck]

A question for you guys that are trying the Toilet Paper for Charcoal.
Has anyone tried making charcoal out of Kleenex or other Facial Tissues.
They look like they could make good charcoal like the toilet paper does.

LAGS;
In reading some on the TP and paper products in general, I read that face tissues are manufactured basically germ free and are anti allergen. Not saying they wouldn't make good powder. They may make even better, actually. We need a guinea pig to cook a box of Kleenex, get some ash numbers and some density numbers and some chronograph numbers. I nominate you, right quick. Anyone second my nomination?
And, please hurry. Enquiring minds need answers!!!

[LAGS]

I would love to do that Testing.
But,
I never do my powders with doing any comparison of weight or density like some of you fine tune guys do.
And I no longer have a Crony to check their speed.
But when I make some more charcoal , I may give the Kleenex a try just to make some powder out of it.
I am not one of the guys that wants to make powder and constantly compare it to Factory Powders.

[HamGunner]

I am lazy or impatient (take your pick) as a 1948 vintage thats unlikely to change any time soon.
Die is 3inch, 20 ton truck jack, I press 500 grams at a time in 100 gram discs

About the same here. I have a 20 ton press and 3" die. I do four layers of close to 35 grams each, as that is all that will fit in my die. I give the press nearly all that the jack has and about all that my press frame can handle, wait a minute or three and hit it another stroke or two and then repeat one more time. When at it's peak, I then hold the pressure for about 4-5 minutes before release. Moisture is just short of squeezing out. Pucks are certainly hard.

And this lazy guy is a 1952 model. :) I turn 72 in a month. Actually has nothing to do with age, but I am happy with my results nonetheless. But then, I also like to experiment if something neat comes along, so if the TP charcoal works out, so much the better.

[indian joe]

I would love to do that Testing.
But,
I never do my powders with doing any comparison of weight or density like some of you fine tune guys do.
And I no longer have a Crony to check their speed.
But when I make some more charcoal , I may give the Kleenex a try just to make some powder out of it.
I am not one of the guys that wants to make powder and constantly compare it to Factory Powders.

Lags I am not fine tune - just sticking to basic procedure and aiming for consistent

diligent with screening - screen - screen - screen = low variation in my grades and low levels of fines / dust

blending - thorough with that - means I have batches of powder that will last me 12 months or more

drying - I want the least deterioration in storage I can get

the chrono velocity is my "how are ya doin here"

I found if I was really particular with assembling loads (cartridge) then the low ES came -- and I got a bit excited about that -- tell me I cant do something and my natural response is "you just watch me" ....one of the guys here (early days) said yeah we can make powder good enough for plinking and front loaders but we never get it good enough for long range (BPCR) ....why not? ....I bet theres at least a dozen guys here doin it - if not the main reason would be small lots and lot to lot variation - blending does away with that.
I'm watching the dunny paper thing with interest but at the same time I quite enjoy a few hours splitting willow sticks with a tommyhawk so would need to keep (or improve) the favourable residue characteristics and gain some ooomph to encourage a change

[DoubleBuck]

I was throwing some notes and junk away from my desk, and found some Mimosa notes I took some months back. It was cut in April and cooked in May and tested. I never tested the charcoal for ash, because I had ashed a debarked twig before cutting it and it ashed near 6%. I went ahead and tested it and it had great numbers and I didn't think it was that dirty. This evening, with nothing to do on a cold night, I pulled a piece of that charcoal out; that I have packed away; and tested the charcoal itself, for ash. 3% was the total content.
Over the course of my time on this forum, I've seen Mimosa discussed and nobody had tested it. It's a very light, fast growing short lived wood, that burns really hot and fast (in my wood stove). We have a lot of them in my area, and I have five or six in the front yard. They grow like weeds. Most of them winter kill, or die off within 20 years or so.
While looking over the numbers on it, and seeing it actually has a 3% ash content, I recommend Mimosa as a very good wood, to make charcoal out of. It gave good numbers on both velocity and accuracy, with fouling being very manageable. It actually out performed both Weeping and Kitty Willows, for me. They won't let me say Kitty Willow's real name.
If you have Mimosa, I think you'll find it is pretty rang dang good.
Now, back to the Toilet Paper...

[Sandro_ventania]

The possibilities of good wood for making charcoal are endless. And the best may yet be discovered. The challenge of making a powder with similar quality to the commercial one was achieved... and I'm very happy with it! The ball mill is what makes the real difference! And since we can't stop looking for improvements, now the goal is to make a powder better than the Swiss in every way. DoubleBuck, is that the mimosa you mean?
https://loja.paraisodasarvores.com.br/acacia-mimosa.html

[HamGunner]

I imagine DoubleBuck has the same Mimosa that I have here in S.Central Missouri.

https://www.greenthumbsgarden.com/products/mimosa-silk-tree?currency=USD&variant=31418464960646&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&stkn=14cddc8fd1a2&utm_campaign=gs-2019-08-19&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign&gad_source=1

[DoubleBuck]

Sandro;
It's the one HamGunner posted. They both appear to be similar but the one he posted is what is here at my place.

[Nobade]

After making and shooting two 100 gram batches of golden powder, I have some conclusions.

It is a usable propellant. 100% surefire ignition, no delay.

It is pretty weak. Shooting it in my 50 cal TC Hawken, it takes 155 grains, which is a BP measure set on 200, to equal the velocity of 60 grains of black powder.

It is not very accurate. I couldn't reliably hit my 6 inch gong at 25 yards. Maybe half the shots connected.

It is extremely clean burning. I fired at least 25 shots using dry, unlubricated patches and the loading effort never changed.

Easy to clean up. One damp patch, both sides, and one dry patch, both sides, and the rifle was clean.

Baking it in the oven made it get a darker color but didn't make it burn any faster.

Using more water and cooking it longer didn't change how it behaved.

The smoke smells terrible. I would ALMOST prefer Pyrodex smoke to this.

So, the conclusion is that it is an easy thing to make, should be quite safe, and if you don't have any access to real gunpowder it could be used. But as long as I can make or buy black powder, I'll stick to that even though it takes a lot more effort for fouling control. I think I'll see if I can make rockets out of it.

[HWooldridge]

I’m speculating but suspect the golden powder may not provide the same bump up you get with BP, so obturation might be minimal. It could be burning and not exploding…

Also curious why you used unlubed patches - seems to me that variable could potentially result in a big difference for the test - wonder if lube would have improved accuracy.

[indian joe]

I’m speculating but suspect the golden powder may not provide the same bump up you get with BP, so obturation might be minimal. It could be burning and not exploding…

Also curious why you used unlubed patches - seems to me that variable could potentially result in a big difference for the test - wonder if lube would have improved accuracy.

I am curious also - if those patches were not mangled beyond any possibility of accurate I would be surprised (nothing new I am often surprised at stuff)

[Sandro_ventania]

After making and shooting two 100 gram batches of golden powder, I have some conclusions.

It is a usable propellant. 100% surefire ignition, no delay.

It is pretty weak. Shooting it in my 50 cal TC Hawken, it takes 155 grains, which is a BP measure set on 200, to equal the velocity of 60 grains of black powder.

It is not very accurate. I couldn't reliably hit my 6 inch gong at 25 yards. Maybe half the shots connected.

It is extremely clean burning. I fired at least 25 shots using dry, unlubricated patches and the loading effort never changed.

Easy to clean up. One damp patch, both sides, and one dry patch, both sides, and the rifle was clean.

Baking it in the oven made it get a darker color but didn't make it burn any faster.

Using more water and cooking it longer didn't change how it behaved.

The smoke smells terrible. I would ALMOST prefer Pyrodex smoke to this.

So, the conclusion is that it is an easy thing to make, should be quite safe, and if you don't have any access to real gunpowder it could be used. But as long as I can make or buy black powder, I'll stick to that even though it takes a lot more effort for fouling control. I think I'll see if I can make rockets out of it.

Something isn't right there...155 grains to be equivalent to 60 grains is far outside what is expected. I started to suspect when you said that the burning is much slower than BP... because I think it is as fast or even faster... if you use iron oxide, it becomes even faster. Be wary of the purity of this ascorbic acid.

[Milky Duck]

so mixed up my bog roll batch today..currently drying in the hot sunshine..getting rebroken up every half hour so it stays as a fine granule sand/sugar not lumps...took fair bit to get charcoal to absorb in the liquid....any tips on getting the sulphur to disolve easier into the small quantity of water???
and yes use boiled water as boiled truck driver pee just smells too funky for me LOL.

[LAGS]

Sulfur does not dissolve in water.
That is why we put sulfur into water to get any stuff out of it to make it pure if it isn't when you bought it.
Like garden sulfur.

[Nobade]

I am curious also - if those patches were not mangled beyond any possibility of accurate I would be surprised (nothing new I am often surprised at stuff)

Other than being brown the patches looked perfect. I could wash them and use them again. I didn't use any lube because none is needed, there is no fouling buildup to control.

I did surmise that it is not hitting the ball hard enough to bump it up, but with no evidence of blowby that may not be an issue. I am going to try another batch with distilled water to see if that makes a difference but otherwise I don't see what I can do to improve anything. The Ascorbic acid says 100% pure as does the nitrate.

[Sandro_ventania]

Other than being brown the patches looked perfect. I could wash them and use them again. I didn't use any lube because none is needed, there is no fouling buildup to control.

I did surmise that it is not hitting the ball hard enough to bump it up, but with no evidence of blowby that may not be an issue. I am going to try another batch with distilled water to see if that makes a difference but otherwise I don't see what I can do to improve anything. The Ascorbic acid says 100% pure as does the nitrate.

Nobade, watch this video where a fellow countryman of mine makes golden powder and compare it with yours. Tell us if yours is the same.
https://youtu.be/nfGSVG3bhBY?feature=shared

he also shows crimson powder in the video. He also makes black powder and comments that gold and crimson are faster.

[Nobade]

Sandro, thank you for sharing the link to that video. His powder certainly works better than mine! I see two differences. I have been using my well water and he uses bottled water. Possibly the minerals in my water are causing troubles. The other is, he cooks it at much higher temperature. I was careful to not get it so hot to boil violently like he did. His turned yellow, mine just barely did. I will try again and see if I can get better results. I also want to find some Iron III oxide powder to try the crimson powder. That was really fast.
Portuguese is such an interesting language to listen to! I can understand Spanish fairly well, Italian a bit, and Portuguese kind of sounds like a mix of the two but I couldn't understand much of what he says except when the words sound like Spanish. So much fun to hear.

[indian joe]

Other than being brown the patches looked perfect. I could wash them and use them again.
thats how they should look so can cross that off the list

I didn't use any lube because none is needed, there is no fouling buildup to control.
I would still use lube - we would use LUBE with smokeless loads ? no ?

I did surmise that it is not hitting the ball hard enough to bump it up, but with no evidence of blowby that may not be an issue.
agree
I am going to try another batch with distilled water to see if that makes a difference but otherwise I don't see what I can do to improve anything. The Ascorbic acid says 100% pure as does the nitrate.

did you get your mix properly dry? I understand the golden powder is hygroscopic ? sounds like something has just not come out right with this mix.

[indian joe]

Sandro, thank you for sharing the link to that video. His powder certainly works better than mine! I see two differences. I have been using my well water and he uses bottled water. Possibly the minerals in my water are causing troubles. The other is, he cooks it at much higher temperature. I was careful to not get it so hot to boil violently like he did. His turned yellow, mine just barely did. I will try again and see if I can get better results. I also want to find some Iron III oxide powder to try the crimson powder. That was really fast.
Portuguese is such an interesting language to listen to! I can understand Spanish fairly well, Italian a bit, and Portuguese kind of sounds like a mix of the two but I couldn't understand much of what he says except when the words sound like Spanish. So much fun to hear.

cooking might be the secret - it makes a huge difference when making Dextrin

[Sandro_ventania]

Sandro, thank you for sharing the link to that video. His powder certainly works better than mine! I see two differences. I have been using my well water and he uses bottled water. Possibly the minerals in my water are causing troubles. The other is, he cooks it at much higher temperature. I was careful to not get it so hot to boil violently like he did. His turned yellow, mine just barely did. I will try again and see if I can get better results. I also want to find some Iron III oxide powder to try the crimson powder. That was really fast.
Portuguese is such an interesting language to listen to! I can understand Spanish fairly well, Italian a bit, and Portuguese kind of sounds like a mix of the two but I couldn't understand much of what he says except when the words sound like Spanish. So much fun to hear.

During school I hated Portuguese. But what makes it difficult also makes it magnificent. The number of words is huge... it is called the language of poets, because we give names to everything and meaning to everything, when we learn another language we feel limited, because we have words that have no translation into other languages. Another interesting fact is that those who speak Portuguese can understand 80% of Spanish naturally, but those who speak Spanish cannot understand any of Portuguese. Returning to the golden powder...iron oxide is easily found in building materials stores as a red dye for cement and lime.

[Sandro_ventania]

did you get your mix properly dry? I understand the golden powder is hygroscopic ? sounds like something has just not come out right with this mix.

It's not just drying! The temperature reaches the melting point of the components... the interaction between them is what even causes them to change color.

[Nobade]

During school I hated Portuguese. But what makes it difficult also makes it magnificent. The number of words is huge... it is called the language of poets, because we give names to everything and meaning to everything, when we learn another language we feel limited, because we have words that have no translation into other languages. Another interesting fact is that those who speak Portuguese can understand 80% of Spanish naturally, but those who speak Spanish cannot understand any of Portuguese. Returning to the golden powder...iron oxide is easily found in building materials stores as a red dye for cement and lime.

Thank you, I shall continue and report back! It's too cold to do much else but cook things inside right now anyway.

[Nobade]

I made a new batch of golden powder today. The video helped immensely! I used distilled water, and cooked it at a much higher temperature. It responded just like in the video, foamed up and then turned yellow then dark brown. I tried a test burn, and it is practically as fast as black powder now. I shot some through that same Hawken rifle, and at 110 grains by volume, which is 81 grains weight, it performed quite well. I managed a quarter size group at 25 yards offhand, and it smacked my spinner gong with authority. There is too much snow on the ground now to want to set up the chronograph but when the weather improves I'm going to try that and see what it is really doing. Before, I never got it to be supersonic but now it's definitely cracking so going considerably faster.
I also ordered a pound of iron III oxide from Amazon, so I'll try the crimson powder when that comes in. This is getting interesting now!

[DoubleBuck]

Nobade;
Does it still stink as bad as you said the first batch did? One of the reasons I make Black Powder is the smell.

[Nobade]

Nobade;
Does it still stink as bad as you said the first batch did? One of the reasons I make Black Powder is the smell.

You know, I hadn't thought about that but I don't think it did. Must be burning better. Still had a lot of smoke though. And way louder, I had to wear ear plugs this time.

[DoubleBuck]

Nobade;
What did you conclude about the new treadmill tumbler? Is it a keeper?

HW;
Did you ever have a chance to try out the TP powder in your 44-40? You may be in this deep freeze someone opened up. I have put near everything but gathering the next batch of wood for the heater, on hold. It has been brutally cold here. As the guy when I was young said, "Everthin's all frez up."

[Sandro_ventania]

I made a new batch of golden powder today. The video helped immensely! I used distilled water, and cooked it at a much higher temperature. It responded just like in the video, foamed up and then turned yellow then dark brown. I tried a test burn, and it is practically as fast as black powder now. I shot some through that same Hawken rifle, and at 110 grains by volume, which is 81 grains weight, it performed quite well. I managed a quarter size group at 25 yards offhand, and it smacked my spinner gong with authority. There is too much snow on the ground now to want to set up the chronograph but when the weather improves I'm going to try that and see what it is really doing. Before, I never got it to be supersonic but now it's definitely cracking so going considerably faster.
I also ordered a pound of iron III oxide from Amazon, so I'll try the crimson powder when that comes in. This is getting interesting now!

aheeee!!! Now yes, you are in the game!! So glad you made it...congratulations! After this cold improves, do better tests and pass the recipe on to others. I leave that to you, because trying to do this using Google translate is a pain...ha ha ha! I don't even know how much I can make myself understood... I don't think even half of what I say...��

[Sandro_ventania]

What do you think about opening a new topic, just for golden powder and crimson powder? Sister topic to this one.

[Trapper-Jack]

a I don't even know how much I can make myself understood... I don't think even half of what I say...��
Your translation is coming through quite well! I appreciate what you have to contribute. It all expands our knowledge.

[DoubleBuck]

Sandro;
If you're using a translator, it must be a good one! I have understood basically everything you have said. You're doing excellent!
I'm not sure how to start a new thread, but I'm sure it's easy. Make one, and see if it blows up. This one did, 11 years or more, ago.

[HamGunner]

What do you think about opening a new topic, just for golden powder and crimson powder? Sister topic to this one.
I would think, yes. Many others would surely wish to try out this type of powder and they would be more likely to see the topic if it was opened on another thread. I for one, would like to give it a try myself, once this winter weather gets on back North where it belongs. But first, I will finish testing out my TP Black.

And yes, Sandro, thanks for your effort.

[Nobade]

Nobade;
What did you conclude about the new treadmill tumbler? Is it a keeper?

I think so. It is a lot faster than my old one, and really seems to do a good job. I want to make some different drums for it to see if I can improve on the design but otherwise the tumbler itself is great. Treadmills are a really good source to build ball mills since they have pretty much everything you need already and you can find them for cheap at yard sales and thrift stores.

[Nobade]

What do you think about opening a new topic, just for golden powder and crimson powder? Sister topic to this one.

Yes, start one and I'll go there too. And I agree with the others, your translations are just fine.
I did discover how to get the YouTube translator to work, and I can get more out of the videos from the guy you shared the link to. That is super helpful as well.

[Sandro_ventania]

Yes, start one and I'll go there too. And I agree with the others, your translations are just fine.
I did discover how to get the YouTube translator to work, and I can get more out of the videos from the guy you shared the link to. That is super helpful as well.

Nobade, foi aberto o tópico da pólvora dourada. Por favor, usando o seu bom inglês, diga lá como você fez. Tenho medo do tradutor dar alguma orientação errada.

[Nobade]

Sandro, achei o novo tópico e já comecei a postar por lá. Obrigado pela educação, vou ser interessante para ver onde vai.

[Nobade]

Now, back to black powder over here. I'm hoping to get some pucks pressed if the temperature goes above 12 deg F today. It's too cold for my press to work!

[Sandro_ventania]

Now, back to black powder over here. I'm hoping to get some pucks pressed if the temperature goes above 12 deg F today. It's too cold for my press to work!

try pressing a small amount, making thin discs one at a time. Let's see if you can also achieve high density like me.

[Nobade]

I actually go in the other direction as far as density. I am following Brett Gibbons' lead and trying to reproduce RFG. (Rifle Fine Grain) that the English used in their ammo. I have found that a density of around 6 gm/cc actually gives higher velocity and cleaner burning than the really heavy powder. The drawback, of course, is that it is not possible to get as much into cartridges.

[2TM101]

What do you think about opening a new topic, just for golden powder and crimson powder? Sister topic to this one.

I would say yes. I just got back from the range where I fired 100 rounds of Golden Powder 9mm. I just get astonished looks when I tell people what the powder is. Smoke is not too different, maybe a lighter color, though just as much. The smell is fairly distinctive. Not unpleasant, just different.

Now be aware this was not in a semiauto, just like BP it does not have the power to cycle the action. It was in a S&W 986. The claims of 10% more power may or may not be true as I have not done any chrono testing as of yet. The 50% less residue may be optimistic, but is indeed noticeably less and cleans off quickly.

Lots more I can say but I'll wait for it to be its own topic.

[2TM101]

Now, back to black powder over here. I'm hoping to get some pucks pressed if the temperature goes above 12 deg F today. It's too cold for my press to work! Here in Los Angeles the temperature isn't the problem but I won't go into that....

My press works fine - I think. 6 ton press and 40mm die (1.98 square inches) which means I'm getting just over 6000 Psi. Which is far more than what is needed for the Sulfur to be the binder. But I may be doing something else not wrong, but inefficiently.

When I grind my pucks Only about half of it comes out in the 1f to 3f range. I get equal amounts of 2FA (Canon Powder) and 4f-5f-dust. I repuck the dust and get the same results. So my grinding process must be flawed somehow.

If you are curious, I use the canon powder in 45-70 loads and the 4f / 5f in 38 special fired in a 357

[Sandro_ventania]

I would say yes. I just got back from the range where I fired 100 rounds of Golden Powder 9mm. I just get astonished looks when I tell people what the powder is. Smoke is not too different, maybe a lighter color, though just as much. The smell is fairly distinctive. Not unpleasant, just different.

Now be aware this was not in a semiauto, just like BP it does not have the power to cycle the action. It was in a S&W 986. The claims of 10% more power may or may not be true as I have not done any chrono testing as of yet. The 50% less residue may be optimistic, but is indeed noticeably less and cleans off quickly.

Lots more I can say but I'll wait for it to be its own topic.

The topic has already been opened. Please go there and leave your testimonial...it will be greatly appreciated! I'm sure many are unaware of this gunpowder!

[HWooldridge]

Nobade;
What did you conclude about the new treadmill tumbler? Is it a keeper?

HW;
Did you ever have a chance to try out the TP powder in your 44-40? You may be in this deep freeze someone opened up. I have put near everything but gathering the next batch of wood for the heater, on hold. It has been brutally cold here. As the guy when I was young said, "Everthin's all frez up."

No, DB - haven’t had an opportunity to load or go shooting, weather has been bad and the forecast is about the same for at least 10 days.

[2TM101]

As a snotty nosed pre-teen kid I not only made my own BP, but managed to ignite some sewer gas with a home made bomb. It caused some aggravation for my neighborhood

The most damage I ever did had nothing to do with powder or firearms. It was when I was modifying old crank phones to talk on modern phone lines. It is actually fairly simple to do (add one capacitor to the ringing circuit). However you need to disconnect the magneto. If you just hook up an old wooden wall phone and crank it, you can actually knock out the entire local telephone exchange. It now been two decades since I did that so I guess I can talk about it now, but my net worth is less than the damage I apparently did.

Maybe I'm the reason nobody here uses landlines here any more. Good thing I only make explosives now.

[Nobade]

Some of us have a lot in common around here...

[Swineherd]

Here in Los Angeles the temperature isn't the problem but I won't go into that....

My press works fine - I think. 6 ton press and 40mm die (1.98 square inches) which means I'm getting just over 6000 Psi. Which is far more than what is needed for the Sulfur to be the binder. But I may be doing something else not wrong, but inefficiently.

When I grind my pucks Only about half of it comes out in the 1f to 3f range. I get equal amounts of 2FA (Canon Powder) and 4f-5f-dust. I repuck the dust and get the same results. So my grinding process must be flawed somehow.

If you are curious, I use the canon powder in 45-70 loads and the 4f / 5f in 38 special fired in a 357

What kind of grinder are you using? I use a galvanized cast iron grain grinder, I believe many others here do as well. I get about 35 to 40% each of 2f and 3f by running the mill pretty coarse, sifting each grind and regrinding the big stuff. The remaining 20 to 30% of fines are tossed in with the meal to be pucked again, of course. I'm sure my process can be improved for efficiency in both time and effort. But, I really like the grain grinder! Beats the snot out of the tiny ceramic burr coffee grinder I started with and broke within about 30 min of use.

Oh and BTW, I think it's awesome you're loading more modern cartridges with black and golden powders. Very cool.

[HamGunner]

When I grind my pucks Only about half of it comes out in the 1f to 3f range. I get equal amounts of 2FA (Canon Powder) and 4f-5f-dust. I repuck the dust and get the same results. So my grinding process must be flawed somehow.

I think it was Lags in posts far back that suggested that one could coarse grind and screen and then coarse grind again and screen the granules that are oversized, and then actually course grind again and screen before tightening up the grinder for a finer grind in order to reduce the fines. That is the method that I have been using and I have reduced my fines a good bit from what I was getting when just tightening up the grinder after every grind.

When I started out making Black, I first used a small ceramic coffee grinder and it worked okay, but was very tedious and I certainly ended up with far too many fines. I spent far too much time repairing the little grinder as it just was not tough enough for what I was dishing out for it to do.

In an Antique store, I found an old cast iron grain grinder like that described by Swineherd and it has made the grinding chore so much less tedious and labor intensive. I only grind one puck at a time and I turn the crank handle slowly keeping my face away from the hopper so there is very little danger of a spark or damage if it should actually ignite one puck's worth of powder.

My normal size batch of Black is 2 1/2 lbs. and I end up with just under 3/4 lb. of fines and the rest being 3F. I occasionally will keep some 2F for a buddy of mine to use in his .50 cal. when he shoots with me, but I only shoot revolvers and a .32 Cal. Squirrel rifle.

[Sandro_ventania]

What kind of grinder are you using? I use a galvanized cast iron grain grinder, I believe many others here do as well. I get about 35 to 40% each of 2f and 3f by running the mill pretty coarse, sifting each grind and regrinding the big stuff. The remaining 20 to 30% of fines are tossed in with the meal to be pucked again, of course. I'm sure my process can be improved for efficiency in both time and effort. But, I really like the grain grinder! Beats the snot out of the tiny ceramic burr coffee grinder I started with and broke within about 30 min of use.

Oh and BTW, I think it's awesome you're loading more modern cartridges with black and golden powders. Very cool.

I have preferred to grind the disc wet, the way it comes out of the press. I have less fines, so it puts a little less pressure on the small coffee grinder. Already ground BP dries much faster. After the ball mill, I can get the batch ready in just one step.

[Nobade]

I had started doing the same thing. I would break up the pucks and grind them while the next one was sitting under pressure in the press.

Today I started on a new press die. I am now working in a hydraulic shop so I have access to honed steel tubing. I'm using a piece that is 2.5 inches ID, and making the bottom cap and pusher out of aluminum. It will be considerably lighter than my all steel one I've been using for years and with the nice honed bore should be easier to get the pucks out. Hoping to try it this weekend.

[HamGunner]

I have preferred to grind the disc wet, the way it comes out of the press. I have less fines, so it puts a little less pressure on the small coffee grinder. Already ground BP dries much faster.

When I was using the little ceramic coffee grinder, I too tried grinding before the pucks had dried and found it to be much easier and I did not find that any more fines were made. I do know it certainly took a lot of the work out of the grinding.

If I have the time after pressing, I still go ahead and start grinding, even now that I am using a much stronger hand cranked grain grinder. Humidity is not a problem where I dry my pucks or the already ground and screened powder as I have either done it out in the sun in warm weather or inside my hobby shack where it is climate controlled.

I have a half dozen large oven sized cookie sheets upon which to spread out the powder. Right now with the cold weather, we are fighting to keep the humidity above about 20-25 % inside.

[indian joe]

When I was using the little ceramic coffee grinder, I too tried grinding before the pucks had dried and found it to be much easier and I did not find that any more fines were made. I do know it certainly took a lot of the work out of the grinding.

If I have the time after pressing, I still go ahead and start grinding, even now that I am using a much stronger hand cranked grain grinder. Humidity is not a problem where I dry my pucks or the already ground and screened powder as I have either done it out in the sun in warm weather or inside my hobby shack where it is climate controlled.

I have a half dozen large oven sized cookie sheets upon which to spread out the powder. Right now with the cold weather, we are fighting to keep the humidity above about 20-25 % inside.

I made up a frame to mount my coffee grinder solid on the bench and added a discharge spout that empties into a decent size container underneath - made it into a different implement -- cranking that thing while holding it was no fun at all

[DoubleBuck]

Ham;
Did you observe any difference in the loaded density between fresh ground versus dry ground pucks? My main concern with doing it fresh is; if it promotes soft grains. But, if you had a reduction in fines, that would seem to say the grains at least stayed together. I have no doubt that dry grinding/screening has to fracture each grain off the puck; and that may very well promote fines. But, at the same time, if damp working of the puck promotes softer grains, the fines would show up some time later; like in storage. I'm not arguing either point, at all. If doing them damp is better, or no different, I'm all in; because it is certainly easier. I've only done them dry, from the info I've read, and how I originally learned to do it. Mainly from here. ha.
Again, from my reading, it seems the commercial powder is the wettest at milling, and the driest just before grinding/screening, with the final process being drying and final screening together, following polishing. Which would leave room to say when they break their 'cakes' up, they may be close in moisture content, to our fresh pucks.
On the humidity and being cabin fevered, I've been trying to set on myself, not to cook a batch of brown TP charcoal, while I can watch it every minute and have nothing else to do. I want to cook a batch brown and see if it helps, hurts, or makes no difference. And, I want to try the 77/13/10 ratio recipe. In this low indoor humidity (I touched my wife on the nose a few minutes ago and got a real pretty half inch blue spark. I'm not sure, but think it crossed her eyes) powder should dry very well and can very well, too.

[LAGS]

I have ground up pucks right after pressing them.
Yes,
There was less fines.
But you can see that that is because the fines are just sticking to the larger grains.
The fines are not still part of the density of the larger grains.
So overall it just by size reduces the overall density of each grain.
It ain't by much , because not every large grain has a fine stuck to it.
But i seem to have a more consistent density if I press the pucks , then dry them before I grind them.
The fines do get re wetted and then repressed.
So I am not loosing powder.
Just loosing just a little time saving the fines.

[Swineherd]

I got impatient and tried grinding freshly pressed pucks. I had a lot of buildup of fine material sticking in the grinder and rather than shattering the puck into well defined granules, it seemed to smush a great deal into softer crumbles. It didn't tickle my fancy one bit.

[Nobade]

Hmmm, your pucks are a lot wetter than mine were. All this may possibly be climate related, when I was doing that I was in NM and now I'm not so the technique may have to change. What worked great before may be a failure now, we'll see.

[HWooldridge]

In my experience, grinding immediately after pressing just gummed up my grain grinder and made a huge mess. I'm happy to put up with fines from drier product if it keeps the grinder clean, especially since I can make more pucks. I've done up to three press cycles with fines and the total gets less on each pass, so eventually there isn't much left over. I have a plastic container to store fines and will make pucks when the quantity gets to the point where I think it's worthwhile.

[HamGunner]

Ham;
Did you observe any difference in the loaded density between fresh ground versus dry ground pucks?

I did not really see much change in my measured density, but I doubt my pucks come out nearly as damp as some must be because I still see dust released from the grinder even when ground fairly soon after pressing. I imagine my Fresh pucks have had several hours or even overnight to dry a bit before I got around to crushing and grinding. That is what I call fresh grind.

Early on during my first batches, I waited for up to a week before grinding and certainly found the pucks to be DRY and very hard. I was using the little coffee grinder and likely not using it to it's best efficiency as far as fines are concerned as it sure seemed to have a higher percentage of fines. Plus, I was usually experimenting with different types of charcoal with each successive batch, so the density was likely changing anyway.

For the most part anymore, I usually only wait a day or so before I grind up the pucks. My pucks are not very thick at all and I turn them over to expose the under side every time I go by them or check on them, so they are not damp by any means.

I think the very first time that I ever pressed any meal was the only time that I got it damp enough that I saw moisture being pressed out of the pucks. Now, after learning from Lags to use a spray bottle to dampen the milled meal more evenly, I only see a slight damp spot on the very bottom steel plate of the press, under the stack of pucks. I do wait a few hours, after dampening the meal, before I press the pucks.

Lags sure seems to always come up with and share better ideas and shortcuts. I have utilized plenty of his suggestions in my processes.

[Sandro_ventania]

I got impatient and tried grinding freshly pressed pucks. I had a lot of buildup of fine material sticking in the grinder and rather than shattering the puck into well defined granules, it seemed to smush a great deal into softer crumbles. It didn't tickle my fancy one bit.

Very strange to hear that! I grind the discs as soon as they come out of the press. It doesn't make anything dirty, the discs break as if they were dry, it just generates less fines, as the disc breaks a little more easily. My climate is always humid, I've never seen it below 60%, so I believe that the humidity in the air doesn't get in the way. To make a mess in the grinder, its disc is pressed a little and contains a lot of water.

[LAGS]

@H G
Remember that I also said to lightly spray water on the green powder.
Mix it up a little.
Then press it thru a screen to even out what moisture you put on the powder.
Letting it sit for an hour or more after you sprayed the water on works well too.
But the screening just seems to speed things up.
And if you think that you got the powder too wet for some reason.
Screening it several times helps it dry out faster and more evenly before you press the screened powder.
Just a suggestion that I use when I screw up occasionally.

[HamGunner]

Well, it got up to just over 50 degrees today and was overcast. Perfect day to do some chronograph tests of powder as my Chony likes bright cloudy skies the best. I tested Goex 3F, my Sassafras 3F, and my recent batch of 3F Great Value Toilet Paper.

I used my 1851 .36 Cal. Pietta Colt navy reproduction that was imported by Navy Arms in 1976. I fired six shots through the Chrony at about 15 ft. to make certain that it was going to work and also to foul the cylinder and bore so that all testing would be done with the revolver fouled. I then shot six shots of each powder twice, for 12 shots of each powder, but I shot one cylinder full of each of the three powders before testing each powder a second time. Below are the average of 12 shots of each powder.

Each test was loaded with a weighed charge of 22 gr. ignited by a Rem. #11 cap. I used my cast 80gr. .375 dia. Ball seated directly onto the powder with no card or wad. I used Lambs Tallow / Beeswax level with the throat of the cylinder for lube.

Sassafras 3F Average velocity 906 fps. ES 49 SD 16
TP 3F Average velocity 930 fps. ES 39 SD 14
Goex 3F Average velocity 938 fps. ES 29 SD 10

The TP powder was cleaner burning than either of the other two. I think Goex probably had the most noticeable fouling.

[HWooldridge]

Well, it got up to just over 50 degrees today and was overcast. Perfect day to do some chronograph tests of powder as my Chony likes bright cloudy skies the best. I tested Goex 3F, my Sassafras 3F, and my recent batch of 3F Great Value Toilet Paper.

I used my 1851 .36 Cal. Pietta Colt navy reproduction that was imported by Navy Arms in 1976. I fired six shots through the Chrony at about 15 ft. to make certain that it was going to work and also to foul the cylinder and bore so that all testing would be done with the revolver fouled. I then shot six shots of each powder twice, for 12 shots of each powder, but I shot one cylinder full of each of the three powders before testing each powder a second time. Below are the average of 12 shots of each powder.

Each test was loaded with a weighed charge of 22 gr. ignited by a Rem. #11 cap. I used my cast 80gr. .375 dia. Ball.

Sassafras 3F Average velocity 906 fps. ES 49 SD 16
TP 3F Average velocity 930 fps. ES 39 SD 14
Goex 3F Average velocity 938 fps. ES 29 SD 10

The TP powder was cleaner burning than either of the other two. I think Goex probably had the most noticeable fouling.

Hamgunner,

Your results are similar to mine with regard to ranking. My cedar based powder wasn’t terrible, but TP was by far the fastest. Goex had the second highest velocity and was the dirtiest powder.

[DoubleBuck]

HamGunner
Killer tests! Thanks for posting the results and the more I see of this TP charcoal, the more I'm thinking it really is the real deal. We've both had great luck with Sweet Sassie Frassie, and now we've both had fine results from the Golden Throne Paper. I myself think it's worth continuing on with. Thanks again for posting your results!

[Nobade]

I want to thank whoever suggested using a grain grinder to grind up pucks! I had forgotten I had one here, a Victorio brand. It worked great this morning. I decided to combine techniques, setting the grain grinder on pretty coarse then anything that wouldn't pass my 1F screen got run through the ceramic burr coffee grinder that I have normally used. That made it quick and easy, and no adjustments to either machine were required. I managed to break up the latest batch of powder much faster and easier than ever before.

The new press die made from hydraulic honed tubing works really well also. I'm getting good densities, in the neighborhood of 7.1 grams/cc with little effort and ejecting the pucks is so much easier with the smooth bore. I recommend trying that if you have a local hydraulic repair shop that can sell or give you a few inches of tube in whatever size you need for your press. I used 2.5 inch for my 20 ton press and that seems to be a good size.

Did anybody see the new video using Wonder Bread for charcoal? I'm amazed it worked as well as it did, and glad he is willing to try all this oddball stuff so we don't have to.

[HWooldridge]

I want to thank whoever suggested using a grain grinder to grind up pucks! I had forgotten I had one here, a Victorio brand. It worked great this morning. I decided to combine techniques, setting the grain grinder on pretty coarse then anything that wouldn't pass my 1F screen got run through the ceramic burr coffee grinder that I have normally used. That made it quick and easy, and no adjustments to either machine were required. I managed to break up the latest batch of powder much faster and easier than ever before.

The new press die made from hydraulic honed tubing works really well also. I'm getting good densities, in the neighborhood of 7.1 grams/cc with little effort and ejecting the pucks is so much easier with the smooth bore. I recommend trying that if you have a local hydraulic repair shop that can sell or give you a few inches of tube in whatever size you need for your press. I used 2.5 inch for my 20 ton press and that seems to be a good size.

Did anybody see the new video using Wonder Bread for charcoal? I'm amazed it worked as well as it did, and glad he is willing to try all this oddball stuff so we don't have to.

Speaking of “Everything Black Powder”, he also put out a good video on duplex loads. Definitely worth watching.

[Sandro_ventania]

Has anyone here tried BP without sulfur? They say it makes an almost smokeless powder.

[DoubleBuck]

Sandro
I tried some powder (about 10 grams if I recall) made with no Sulfur. For me, it was really hard to light, and lacked energy. I had some Schuetzen 2ff a few years ago. It was hard to light compared to my home made. Really hard, actually. But I didn't have trouble with it lighting in my rifles, and I thought it shot well. The difference in it and my home made was about 1/2 the difference of the no Sulfur powder compared to my home made. I had no chronograph then, but the powder did not perform well, for me. I did not pay attention to the amount of smoke from it. I guess I never thought about it. I know it smelled different.
You may have different results from not adding Sulfur. If you make a test, let us know the results!

[HWooldridge]

I made a half pound batch of no sulfur. It shot about 20% slower than the normal recipe. However, it might be worth experimenting with the KNO3 and charcoal ratios; I just never messed with it any further.

[Sandro_ventania]

I read something about it. It said the proportion was 100 parts nitrate to 27 parts coal. I'm not sure, but it seems like the measurement is by volume, but I'm not sure. The advantage described is little smoke and being less corrosive.

[Linstrum]

Measuring by volume is pretty "iffy" at best, and isn't reliably repeatable for what we do. How fluffy is the charcoal, etc. Stoichiometric ratios for chemical reactions are an absolute must, so how much of what is always by weight. When too much or too little of a reactant is in a mixture, the reaction goes too slowly because the other reactant behaves as though it were a contaminant or impurity when it is in excess.

Back 60 years ago when I was in 8th grade, one of my buddies tried making black powder by measuring the ingredients by volume, using kitchen measuring spoons. I told him it was done by weight, but he wouldn't believe me. He said that wasn't how his mom measured ingredients to make cookies and cakes! His attempt at making black powder would just barely fizzle, and then go out. What he had was a pile of mostly potassium nitrate, with a little sulfur and some sprinkles of barbecue briquette charcoal in it. Barbecue briquette charcoal has a lot of sawdust and sand mixed in with it, along with some dextrin and Portland cement to make it all stick together.

Because my dad was a chemist, he had a one kilogram Ohaus balance that was accurate to a tenth of a gram. So, I mixed up maybe 10 grams, about 150 grains, of crude black powder meal to show my buddy how it is done, and how the powdered ingredients burn. I simply got some lumps of charcoal out of the back yard grill pit, probably lemon tree wood. In fifteen minutes I had made some fine dry serpentine powder, which made a pretty good mushroom cloud when it burned. Nothing like 150 grains of GOEX that I wouldn't dare get close enough to light with a match in my fingers, but a pretty good WHOOSH! That made a believer out of my buddy that chemists weigh ingredients, and that measuring spoons and cups are great for cookies and cakes in the kitchen.

[Sandro_ventania]

I fully agree! The ideal would be to measure in moles... but that's too much to ask!

[Graysmoke]

I give credit to all who have given me instruction and courage to make BP. I just cooked my first batch of tp charcoal using kirkland brand. Milled it for 15 min. and it can definitely be air born powder fluffy like I’ve never seen char. I wont be able to mix and shoot some for a while, I can’t wait to see the comparison to the red cedar char I have been making BP with.
Thanks again to all!!
Graysmoke (n lots of it!)

[HamGunner]

I cooked another batch of TP into charcoal. The first batch that I charred was three rolls of Wal-Mart's Great Value Ultra Strong. I had to really work at getting all three rolls into my large pressure pan cooker. When charred, it weighed out enough charcoal to make 1.5 lbs. of Black, or about 1/2 lb. of powder per roll.

This time I used three rolls of Sam's Club Member's Mark Ultra Premium. Was able to squeeze all three rolls into the cooker without as much difficulty and after charring and then weighing the results I could see why. The three rolls only weighed out enough charcoal to make barely 1 lb. of Black. Certainly less dense tissue in these rolls. About 35% less.

I have the Potassium Nitrate dried and weighed out and dumped into my mill along with the rest of the ingredients and will mill it up tomorrow. I am curious as to whether there is any difference in the two Toilet Paper tissues other than weight. I am guessing that the Sam's Club TP is just fluffier, but perhaps I will soon find out.

[Linstrum]

Well, gosh! It seems like using toilet paper as a source of charcoal is about the best thing to come along since, since what? Since toilet paper was invented! That, sliced bread, and the Victor mouse trap!

I did a quick ash test using the cheapest paper towels from Walmart. I didn't do an assay, I couldn't because there wasn't anything left to assay, it burned to nothing. But I did have to hold a flame under the piece of paper towel to keep the charred part burning, which does not surprise me or cause me any concern, since everything burned and disappeared, as it should.

So, the next part is to figure out which is more cost effective. Which costs more per pound, toilet paper or paper towels? Cheap paper towels fall apart like toilet paper as soon as they get wet, which would seem to indicate that there isn't any binder used in with the paper pulp to impart wet strength. Nothing "brawny" about cheap paper towels.

I also burn-tested a strip cut from a coffee filter. Forget that! It left a lot of fine gray ash.

[DoubleBuck]

I shot the last of the first batch of Charmin T.P. powder I made awhile back, today. I was able to make a fair test of that 3fff powder which was finished without polishing, versus the same powder which was polished for 12 hours. The test was my first with the new (to me) Pietta .44 Navy I bought a couple of weeks ago. Powder was 1.6 density screened size <20 >50 and rescreened >50 after polishing.
290 grains of powder lost 19.8 grains of fines after polishing.
I had 12 shots of unpolished 25 grains each under a Wonder Wad under a .451 Round ball, kicked with a RWS 1075 plus cap.
They averaged 742 FPS, with a spread of 73 FPS and a average efficiency of 29.68 fps/grain.
11 shots of polished 25 grains averaged 798 FPS, with a spread of 62 and average efficiency of 31.912 fps/grain.
I had one shot of the last dab of powder which was 14.1 grain, which went 629 FPS with an efficiency of 25.16 fps/grain.
I think I will be polishing my powder from here out. The only difference in the two powders tested was polished and not polished.
I really don't know from inexperience if these numbers are good or bad. The efficiency of the polished powder was, I thought, very good. In my rifle experience, an efficiency above 31 fps per grain, is a good thing. Don't know about pistols.
I hope everyone else had as much fun, today!

[dtknowles]

I shot the last of the first batch of Charmin T.P. powder I made awhile back, today. I was able to make a fair test of that 3fff powder which was finished without polishing, versus the same powder which was polished for 12 hours. The test was my first with the new (to me) Pietta .44 Navy I bought a couple of weeks ago. Powder was 1.6 density screened size <20 >50 and rescreened >50 after polishing.
290 grains of powder lost 19.8 grains of fines after polishing.
I had 12 shots of unpolished 25 grains each under a Wonder Wad under a .451 Round ball, kicked with a RWS 1075 plus cap.
They averaged 742 FPS, with a spread of 73 FPS and a average efficiency of 29.68 fps/grain.
11 shots of polished 25 grains averaged 798 FPS, with a spread of 62 and average efficiency of 31.912 fps/grain.
I had one shot of the last dab of powder which was 14.1 grain, which went 629 FPS with an efficiency of 25.16 fps/grain.
I think I will be polishing my powder from here out. The only difference in the two powders tested was polished and not polished.
I really don't know from inexperience if these numbers are good or bad. The efficiency of the polished powder was, I thought, very good. In my rifle experience, an efficiency above 31 fps per grain, is a good thing. Don't know about pistols.
I hope everyone else had as much fun, today!

I am not sure your "efficiency" number is meaningful. One would get less fps per grain with a heavier bullet. Even round balls of different calibers would show different efficiency with the same powder.

Tim

[DoubleBuck]

I use the efficiency number more than anything else. Personal preference. If you use the same ball and load, the only thing that changes is the efficiency of the powder. A heavier bullet still has an efficiency number. Start low and work up until the efficiency starts to fall and you've reached maximum load value. As I say, I use it. If you don't, it won't hurt my feelings. It may have zero meaning to you. It means plenty to me.
Different Charcoal; different grain sizes; recipe changes; density changes; mill times; moisture content; every change you make to powder affects its efficiency number.
Testing different powders, using the same gun, the same loads and the same ball/patch/bullet combinations leaves far too many variables to pinpoint the slight variation causes. Doing them one at a time and observing the efficiency numbers helps to quickly narrow them down. Comparing only powder changes makes that percentage critical to finding the best that can be expected from each powder. As long as that number is going up, it is indicating positive results. I've found it works for me.

[Sandro_ventania]

I use the efficiency number more than anything else. Personal preference. If you use the same ball and load, the only thing that changes is the efficiency of the powder. A heavier bullet still has an efficiency number. Start low and work up until the efficiency starts to fall and you've reached maximum load value. As I say, I use it. If you don't, it won't hurt my feelings. It may have zero meaning to you. It means plenty to me.
Different Charcoal; different grain sizes; recipe changes; density changes; mill times; moisture content; every change you make to powder affects its efficiency number.
Testing different powders, using the same gun, the same loads and the same ball/patch/bullet combinations leaves far too many variables to pinpoint the slight variation causes. Doing them one at a time and observing the efficiency numbers helps to quickly narrow them down. Comparing only powder changes makes that percentage critical to finding the best that can be expected from each powder. As long as that number is going up, it is indicating positive results. I've found it works for me.

Did you weigh each one individually? Or were these 25 grains by volume? We know that polished grains sit better, allowing more grains to fit into the same volume.

[2TM101]

My goal is to make a functional product in the cheapest way possible as opposed to the best performance, so I do things a bit differently. I make my charcoal out of either paper from the company shredder or Amazon boxes, as those are free.

Since it appears everybody here watches Jake's youtube channel and learned about toilet paper, you probably saw the Duplex powder one, and yes, I do that too. My .38 special loads consists of 2.5 grains of W244 topped with as much of my Amazon BP as will fit without compressing any more than I need to keep the smokeless component in place. Sounds like a regular load but with all the BP smoke. Great cowboy action stuff but the real reason is to make the smokeless powder last twice as long.

[HWooldridge]

My goal is to make a functional product in the cheapest way possible as opposed to the best performance, so I do things a bit differently. I make my charcoal out of either paper from the company shredder or Amazon boxes, as those are free.

Since it appears everybody here watches Jake's youtube channel and learned about toilet paper, you probably saw the Duplex powder one, and yes, I do that too. My .38 special loads consists of 2.5 grains of W244 topped with as much of my Amazon BP as will fit without compressing any more than I need to keep the smokeless component in place. Sounds like a regular load but with all the BP smoke. Great cowboy action stuff but the real reason is to make the smokeless powder last twice as long.

In your experience, do the duplex loads leave less BP residue in the gun?

[DoubleBuck]

Sandro;
I weigh every one to the tenth of a grain.

[Nobade]

Duplex loads are way cleaner. You can shoot all day and not really have to worry about fouling control. Most of my cowboy silhouette ammo was loaded that way, it's more fun to keep shooting and know where it's going to hit than suddenly fouling out and shots start going wild.

[dtknowles]

I use the efficiency number more than anything else. Personal preference. If you use the same ball and load, the only thing that changes is the efficiency of the powder. A heavier bullet still has an efficiency number. Start low and work up until the efficiency starts to fall and you've reached maximum load value. As I say, I use it. If you don't, it won't hurt my feelings. It may have zero meaning to you. It means plenty to me.
Different Charcoal; different grain sizes; recipe changes; density changes; mill times; moisture content; every change you make to powder affects its efficiency number.
Testing different powders, using the same gun, the same loads and the same ball/patch/bullet combinations leaves far too many variables to pinpoint the slight variation causes. Doing them one at a time and observing the efficiency numbers helps to quickly narrow them down. Comparing only powder changes makes that percentage critical to finding the best that can be expected from each powder. As long as that number is going up, it is indicating positive results. I've found it works for me.

I understand. The number will work for you but can't be compared to someone else's unless they have the same gun and use the same projectile.

Tim

[Jadkins87]

I am so glad i found this thread.. my brother in law that basically raised me and i have been talking about this for some time and we haven't made the jump yet in to making it we have everything on hand to do it just haven't.. will post info if we do make some..

God Bless

JDAS

[DoubleBuck]

I understand. The number will work for you but can't be compared to someone else's unless they have the same gun and use the same projectile.

Tim

Nobody has the same gun, load, powder, projectile, or ten other things. What is it you would suggest I use that would suit you?

[dtknowles]

Nobody has the same gun, load, powder, projectile, or ten other things. What is it you would suggest I use that would suit you?

I like comparisons to an equal weight charge of GOEX fff (3f). Compare volume, velocity and fouling. I am going to get some of the new GOEX to compare to the older stuff I have.

Tim

[DoubleBuck]

I haven't had any commercial powder for three years. But, three years ago I was making faster and cleaner powder, per weight of charge than the commercial I had. I've got notes on five years of powder making comparisons. I just use those, when testing something new. I've tried to be done with testing, and stick with my Sassafras, and was comfortable with my results with it. Then this Toilet Paper came up and I had to try it. I'll be using it from here out, more than likely and I have 30 pounds of Sassafras cleaned and dried, waiting to be cooked. What is good for me, you may not find useful. Post your results and good luck with the Goex comparisons.

[dtknowles]

I haven't had any commercial powder for three years. Post your results and good luck with the Goex comparisons.

I have been saving my commercial powder for comparisons and using my homemade. I will post my forward results, new GOEX is on the way, I have posted my GOEX comparisons in the past.

One example.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?103852-My-homemade-black-powder&p=5535137&viewfull=1#post5535137

Another example,

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?103852-My-homemade-black-powder&p=5531844&viewfull=1#post5531844

Tim

[HamGunner]

I suppose I use my own method of grading my home made. I had some older Goex 3F that I was comparing to my different wood charcoal powders since the beginning as I mostly make 3F. Comparing by weight per volume as well as velocity, but have never really calculated density in the pucks per say.

I used up that Goex from just my testing, as of course I had to shoot a bit of it along the way. Did not have much Goex left to begin with. Managed to get possession of another almost full older can of Goex 3F from 2004 vintage and that is what I am using now for my comparisons along with my other charcoal powders.

The % of weight per volume density gives me an indication whether or not I am getting a good scald on milling and pressing. Of course the average velocity results along with the extreme velocity spread and deviation by using at least a cylinder full of shots out of one of my revolvers keeps me mostly lined out as to how each powder is doing in comparison. I have been using the same revolver, load, and ball since the beginning of my tests.

I suppose any data one can get and keep record of that is mostly repeatable should be useful for testing and comparison. Some like to know their powder's density for a comparison of how good their batch came out, but I have never attempted to do the calculations. My math skills are likely not high enough on the chart to be of much use anyway, so I stick to the easier methods.

I have a second batch of TP powder made from somewhat lighter weigh rolls ready for testing and comparison once the weather breaks again. A bit damp and windy out right now.

[2TM101]

Well, gosh! It seems like using toilet paper as a source of charcoal is about the best thing to come along since, since what? Since toilet paper was invented! That, and sliced bread

Jake just did sliced bread. Its about as good for black powder as it is for food.

[2TM101]

I fully agree! The ideal would be to measure in moles... but that's too much to ask!

Last time I measured chemicals in Moles was 1979. I can barely remember that even being a thing.

[HighUintas]

DB, I like your measure of powder efficiency. It makes sense to use if you're looking to find the optimal powder and charge for a specific gun/ball/patch.

I have been wondering while watching the progress on TP black, has anyone tried to cook the TP low and slow to leave behind creosote and make brown powder?

Everyone tried very hard to do so with wood charcoal, because it created a faster and softer fouling powder.

Does it not matter for TP since there's so little ash? Does it not actually have any residual creosote to begin with?

[DoubleBuck]

HighUintas;
The fouling I found from the TP powder was soft and actually pretty light. I thought it was very clean. My first single roll batch was slow cooked with low temp., and it had lots of creosote in it. When I pulled it early, it was dark brown colored and there was liquid creosote collecting around the vent on the retort, and lots in the bottom and sides of the retort, inside. The paper felt damp and would break apart with your fingers. I think from the texture of it, that had I tried; it probably would have milled to powder, right then, but I cooked it 10-15 minutes longer, not being sure how it would react and not wanting to make a mess and have to start over.
The second batch of three rolls in a gallon retort and one roll in a quart sized retort, cooked at the same time; I cooked slow at low temp but it still came out a little darker than brown. I pulled them just after the flame from the vent started to decrease and was still blue with orange tips. The creosote had 'baked on' the inside of the retort, but would not flake off, like it was burnt. The paper was not damp feeling but also did not feel brittle like it was over cooked at all. I have not shot any of that powder as yet. It is waiting on me to check it out, and I am anxious to get it tested.
That was the long answer but I think the short answer would be; it seemed to me to cook just about the same as wood. And, the reaction seemed to be very similar as well. Both of the powders came out very light grey compared to most of the wood I have cooked. My next batch, I'm going to shut it down with the paper still in that brown stage, and see if it will mill to air float. I think it will.
I hope that answered your questions. I think it has a high amount of creosote in it, if cooked right and the fouling was nice and greasy. I think on the one test, I shot (without looking) about 10-12 shots without swabbing and they all loaded as easy as if I had swabbed. As far as ash goes, there just about is none, from my observations. The math said .0038%, if I recall, on the paper and I didn't ash any of the charcoal. At that time, I didn't think it was necessary. I wish now I had, to see if there was a difference between the paper and the charcoal, in ash content. I'll try to remember to do that, next time.
Cook up a batch and let us know how it comes out for you!

[Brimstone]

Greasy residue is precisely what I go for with my powder. Feels like face paint, same creamy texture. Makes all the difference in the bore.

[HamGunner]

Nice day, so I done some more chronograph testing on all my home made powders. Sassafras, Wal-Mart Great Value Ultra Strength TP, Sam's Club Member Mark Ultra Premium TP. and my first batch of Golden Powder, which I will toss in here as well as on the Golden Powder thread.

All fired in my Pietta .36 cal. 1851 Navy pushing an 80gr. ball and ignited by my home made caps. Twelve rounds (two cylinders) of each fired for the test using a load of 22 gr. (measured, but not weighed) for all, except for the Golden Powder, which I did not measure as I just filled the cylinder with the Golden Powder, compressed with the ram, filled to the top again and seated the ball on top of that.

Sassafras 3F averaged 846 fps. with an ES of 61 fps. SD of 22.
Great Value TP 3F Ave. 869 fps. with an ES of 43 fps. SD of 15.
Sam's Club TP 3F Ave. 891 fps. with an ES of 42 fps. SD of 15. The first cylinder full of this powder gave Ave. 908 fps. with 19 fps. ES and 07 fps. SD.

Golden Powder 3F Ave. 568 fps. with an ES of 56 fps. SD of 20 fps. Again, I topped off cylinders, compressed with ram, re-filled cylinders and seated ball. Did not weigh or measure the Golden Powder loads. This Golden Powder does shoot very clean. Might make some good plinking powder. The accuracy was noticeably decent.

Not much new info on the TP testing. They both seemed to be very close in results, but one cylinder full of the Sam's Club TP powder did give probably the best ES and SD of any testing of this Pietta, ever. Maybe just a fluke, but perhaps this TP charcoal powder can be made to shoot. TP has once again beat out my Sassafras, which up until now had been my best so far.

Note: On the test below, I used factory caps and actually weighed the charges. I did get more velocity in that testing session, so either the loading or the caps, or both, likely made some difference in the two tests as far as velocity goes, but this test did give good comparative potential I suppose.

[HamGunner]

Well, it got up to just over 50 degrees today and was overcast. Perfect day to do some chronograph tests of powder as my Chony likes bright cloudy skies the best. I tested Goex 3F, my Sassafras 3F, and my recent batch of 3F Great Value Toilet Paper.

I used my 1851 .36 Cal. Pietta Colt navy reproduction that was imported by Navy Arms in 1976. I fired six shots through the Chrony at about 15 ft. to make certain that it was going to work and also to foul the cylinder and bore so that all testing would be done with the revolver fouled. I then shot six shots of each powder twice, for 12 shots of each powder, but I shot one cylinder full of each of the three powders before testing each powder a second time. Below are the average of 12 shots of each powder.

Each test was loaded with a weighed charge of 22 gr. ignited by a Rem. #11 cap. I used my cast 80gr. .375 dia. Ball seated directly onto the powder with no card or wad. I used Lambs Tallow / Beeswax level with the throat of the cylinder for lube.

Sassafras 3F Average velocity 906 fps. ES 49 SD 16
TP 3F Average velocity 930 fps. ES 39 SD 14
Goex 3F Average velocity 938 fps. ES 29 SD 10

The TP powder was cleaner burning than either of the other two. I think Goex probably had the most noticeable fouling.

This was my first tests done on 01-24-24

[2TM101]

Sassafras 3F averaged 846 fps. with an ES of 61 fps. SD of 22.
Great Value TP 3F Ave. 869 fps. with an ES of 43 fps. SD of 15.
Sam's Club TP 3F Ave. 891 fps. with an ES of 42 fps. SD of 15. The first cylinder full of this powder gave Ave. 908 fps. with 19 fps. ES and 07 fps. SD.

Golden Powder 3F Ave. 568 fps. with an ES of 56 fps. SD of 20 fps. Again, I topped off cylinders, compressed with ram, re-filled cylinders and seated ball. Did not weigh or measure the Golden Powder loads.

The small amount of Iron Oxide & Charcoal that makes Golden Powder into Crimson Powder makes a significant difference, should bring it up to be the equal of the TP loads, especially if you use TP charcoal. Should be easy as there is very little Charcoal in crimson, like less than 2 percent.

[HamGunner]

2TM101 I am waiting on some Red Iron Oxide to arrive and then I will certainly give it a try.

[HighUintas]

You guys are awesome. Thanks for continuing to share your efforts. I really enjoy seeing the progress and learning from everyone.

I'll get back to it at some point! I've been busy troubleshooting one of those newfangled smokeless cartridge guns

[Graysmoke]

I had a chance to do some range time with my TP powder. I still have to use abt 10% more to equal factory powder, and not as clean as factory. It was cleaner than red cedar char though, still can’t meet factory density when weighed. I puck it with only enough water to stop dust when stirring, dry it then grind it so lost cause I’ll just use more by volume still shoots and costs less and gets the job done! WIN WIN!
Graysmoke

[Graysmoke]

I know what you are saying Joe, I watch Jakes videos and see him get volume and weight the same. I never got that with factory powder always 76 to 78 gr weight to 80 gr measure had to throw 5 measures to average out and weigh my loads for working toward best accuracy so only patch n ball were the variables. I have to think we are not so far off kilter with what we are doing. Still a great way of cutting the cost of my hobby along with making caps, cutting patches and using homemade lube!
Graysmoke

[Pellethuntr]

This thread is stuffed full of excellent information. I have read through around 1/4 of it so far and have learned a ton!

I am sure the answer to my question is somewhere in the 395 pages here but I have not found it yet.

What size sieves should I get if I want to keep 1F, 2F and 3F powder? I have powder mixed, pucked and ready to go through the grain mill just not sure what optimal sieve size is!

[LAGS]

I bought the screening sieves in
10 , 20 ,30 ,40 , 50 ,and 60.
That allows me to sort out 1f, 2f, 3f and 4f.
What won't pass thru a 20 will be 1f
What won't pass thru a 30 is 2f
What won't pass thru a 40 is what I call my 3f
But some guys say if it won't pass thru a 50 are still 3f.
What sits on the 60 is what I use for 4f.
If it passes thru a 60 , then that is dust and can be prescreened after wetting or repressed into pucks.

[Sandro_ventania]

This thread is stuffed full of excellent information. I have read through around 1/4 of it so far and have learned a ton!

I am sure the answer to my question is somewhere in the 395 pages here but I have not found it yet.

What size sieves should I get if I want to keep 1F, 2F and 3F powder? I have powder mixed, pucked and ready to go through the grain mill just not sure what optimal sieve size is!

The choice of sieves was based on what I found... so I do it like this. Sieves 16, 20, 50 and 80. Between 16 and 20 I consider 2F, between 20 and 50 3F, between 50 and 80 4F... what passes through the 80 is fines, dust and I save it for the next batch. A curious thing is to observe the difference in speed between 3F and 4F... they don't even look like the same powder.

[Pellethuntr]

So for my purposes I should get:

12-16 for Fg

16-20 for FFg

20-40 or 50 for FFFg

My main concern is getting good Fg and FFg, I don't have a purpose for FFFg currently but I am sure I will in due time.

[Sledgehammers_at_Dawn]

This thread is stuffed full of excellent information. I have read through around 1/4 of it so far and have learned a ton!

I am sure the answer to my question is somewhere in the 395 pages here but I have not found it yet.

What size sieves should I get if I want to keep 1F, 2F and 3F powder? I have powder mixed, pucked and ready to go through the grain mill just not sure what optimal sieve size is!

Thank you for asking this! You beat me to it by a few hours! Thank you all that responded!! This helps a lot.
I just finished a batch of dry milled Golden Powder. It makes fire and smoke. Now to load it in something. Most of the information was obtained from this site or pushed me in the direction by this site. Thank you all for that.

[LAGS]

I agree with your new opinion on the F and 2F screen sizes Joe.
But like you said , There are no Rules.
It is basically what works for what you shoot.

[Kenny R]

Hi everyone!
My name is Kenny, and I’m pretty much a lot like most of you on here.
I picked up the sport of muzzleloading about 8 years ago, kinda on a whim.
I own my own electrical business of about 30 years, here in Delaware.
I did some work back then for an older gentleman, named Tom. He had a fascinating collection of flintlocks and percussion rifles. When he showed me around his shop and explained everything about the guns, I immediately wanted to get involved. Within a weeks time, he sold me one of his favorite rifles, A Lyman Great Plains 50 cal. Tom took me under his wing and showed me the ropes of muzzle loaders. And I gotta tell you all, I was hooked, and still am!
Luckily for me, I have access to farmland where I can shoot to my hearts content. In no time at all, I was making my own BP, carefully following the recipes of different people on YouTube, who had some great knowledge. One of which is named “Brush Hippie” (if anyone has heard of him) That was about 8 years ago, and I’ve noticed his presence isn’t much anymore. He often referred to “fly” a lot when explaining his techniques. I noticed that “fly” is a member here too. That’s awesome.

Sorry to ramble on, but I’m just now getting back into the sport (after about a 5 year hiatus) and finding out a lot has changed, and becoming difficult to get things. One of which is the #11 primer cap availability…. Needless to say, I am now making my own caps (thanks to 22lrReloader). I am also casting round balls, and fine tuning my BP, which I must say is pretty darn fast (homemade black willow).
And thanks to this thread, I am getting a ton of help, Thank you all!
I will probably be involved here in the future picking everyone’s brain too lol. A ton of information and old school knowledge on here!
Take care guys, and thank you for your time )

[Brimstone]

Welcome to the rabbit hole Kenny.

[DoubleBuck]

Kenny;
Another one bites the dust. Welcome to My Homemade Black Powder.

[2TM101]

So for my purposes I should get:

12-16 for Fg
16-20 for FFg
20-40 or 50 for FFFg

My main concern is getting good Fg and FFg, I don't have a purpose for FFFg currently but I am sure I will in due time.

According to Skylighter:

Cannon Grade 12 (In my case I have a 10 screen and call it 2FA, which is a fireworks grade for that size)
1FG 20
2FG 30
3FG 50 (I use a 40)
4FG 100 (I use a 60)
5FG +100 ( I use a 110, what goes through that is dust)

I have a couple of inline rifles with twist rates intended for Sabots - FAR too fast for a regular patched ball. Unless I use canon powder.......
1FG mostly gets used in 45-70
5FG gets put in 38 Special and used for CAS
2, 3 & 4 get used for the normal things you use those sizes for.

[LAGS]

When I was a kid.
I use to shoot BP guns using ground match heads for powder.
It didn’t work that great. , and was very corrosive and shot flaming sparks out the end of the barrel.
It might be better stuff to use now that I know more about powders and loads.
Back then , I didn’t even have a scale.
So all loads were just by what I thought looked good.
The match heads burnt pretty explosive , and I am surprised that I didn’t turn my guns into pipe bombs.

[2TM101]

Thank you for asking this! You beat me to it by a few hours! Thank you all that responded!! This helps a lot. I just finished a batch of dry milled Golden Powder. It makes fire and smoke. Now to load it in something. Most of the information was obtained from this site or pushed me in the direction by this site. Thank you all for that.

323740I just took all of my golden powder I had not yet used, mixed it with all of my Black Powder fines and started pucking it. The resulting mix looks a sort of slate grey, and the resulting pucks look grey with black specs all through it. It seems to compress about the same as pure BP and the pucks feel and look the same. Have not yet got to the corning stage but I suspect it will behave just like Black Powder.

[Sandro_ventania]

I just took all of my golden powder I had not yet used, mixed it with all of my Black Powder fines and started pucking it. The resulting mix looks a sort of slate grey, and the resulting pucks look grey with black specs all through it. It seems to compress about the same as pure BP and the pucks feel and look the same. Have not yet got to the corning stage but I suspect it will behave just like Black Powder.

probably just a little cleaner.

[DoubleBuck]

Sandro;
using a .36 pistol and just 6 grains of this mixture I achieved a speed of 741 feet/sec. Using only BP, the best mark is 390 feet/sec.
Are you comparing just 6 grains, to 6 grains of Black? If not, check out HamGunner's posts #7888 and 7889. That should be a lot closer to your .36 caliber velocities, if your Black is performing well.

[Sandro_ventania]

your blackpowder needs work!!!should be able to at least get up in the middle 600 FPS range with homemade BP in a 36 pistol.
Not a purist at all but grinding match heads sounds like hard work for poor reward to me.
Happy with what I am doing - "aint broke dont fix it" has long been one of my things..................................
Can you get 600fps with just 6 grains of powder? If yes, then my powder really needs repair.

[Sandro_ventania]

Sandro;
using a .36 pistol and just 6 grains of this mixture I achieved a speed of 741 feet/sec. Using only BP, the best mark is 390 feet/sec.
Are you comparing just 6 grains, to 6 grains of Black? If not, check out HamGunner's posts #7888 and 7889. That should be a lot closer to your .36 caliber velocities, if your Black is performing well.
doublebuck, But did you notice that the load he used was 22 grains? I only used 6 grains! almost 1/4! I normally use 10 grains and get speeds above 500fps.

[Nobade]

I would not recommend adding chlorates to black powder. You saw how much energy was added with a very small charge. We don't want anyone using a normal size charge and hurting themselves. As you noted, chlorate and sulfur are explosive. That plus a metal will detonate when only slightly confined. I really wouldn't go there.

[dtknowles]

I would not recommend adding chlorates to black powder. You saw how much energy was added with a very small charge. We don't want anyone using a normal size charge and hurting themselves. As you noted, chlorate and sulfur are explosive. That plus a metal will detonate when only slightly confined. I really wouldn't go there.

One needs to be careful what one recommends if you live in the U.S. There are people who will act on your advice, get it wrong, blame you and hire a lawyer to take you to court. We have reckless members even in this forum who don't use good practice or even common sense. Maybe Sandro can get away with it as it seems unlikely he will have to respond to a U.S. court.

Tim

[Sandro_ventania]

One needs to be careful what one recommends if you live in the U.S. There are people who will act on your advice, get it wrong, blame you and hire a lawyer to take you to court. We have reckless members even in this forum who don't use good practice or even common sense. Maybe Sandro can get away with it as it seems unlikely he will have to respond to a U.S. court.

Tim

I have a friend who always says that we are putting an end to man's natural selection and that is why idiots are proliferating so much. Thanks for the advice, I'll be more careful about what I share. If you think it's more prudent and better, I'll delete my messages about it.

[DoubleBuck]

Sandro;
I saw the 22 grains that Ham used. That's why I asked you if you were comparing 6 grains to 6 grains. That makes a lot of difference. If that held true for the full 27.27% increase, in velocity, that would make your 22 grains 1444.44 FPS. I would say your black is performing pretty rang dang good! Carry on!

[Nobade]

I made my first charred toilet paper today. I used Cottonelle, and the two rolls that fit in a gallon paint can made 62 grams of charcoal. So I can make 434 grams of black powder, nearly a pound. How convenient. We're supposed to have lousy weather here tomorrow so I'll probably run the mill and see what I get.

[DoubleBuck]

Nobade;
I hope your Cottonelle charcoal comes out the best! If you can, document your cook time/temp and any results you come up with. I'm pretty sure others are interested, and I know I am. If you want to play, I have done three batches of it, but they've all been 75-15-10 ratio. The guy on Youtube said his normal ratio and the one he used on the Cottonelle was 77-13-10. I don't know of anyone here who has tried that ratio, but it may be worth splitting your batch, if you care to. I plan to try that recipe, on my next batch. One way or the other, good luck and please report as much info as you can.

[Nobade]

I've always used 75-15-10, but could certainly adjust it to see what happens. Jake seems to get good results from his, so it's certainly worth a try. I'll let you know what happens. Wish I could find all the parts to my chronograph so I could get some real speeds. Still working on that.

[Sandro_ventania]

Nobade;
I hope your Cottonelle charcoal comes out the best! If you can, document your cook time/temp and any results you come up with. I'm pretty sure others are interested, and I know I am. If you want to play, I have done three batches of it, but they've all been 75-15-10 ratio. The guy on Youtube said his normal ratio and the one he used on the Cottonelle was 77-13-10. I don't know of anyone here who has tried that ratio, but it may be worth splitting your batch, if you care to. I plan to try that recipe, on my next batch. One way or the other, good luck and please report as much info as you can.

I use 76-15-09. I think coal is essential. It's the sulfur that basically comes in to lower the ignition temperature, so I decided to change it.

[dtknowles]

I have a friend who always says that we are putting an end to man's natural selection and that is why idiots are proliferating so much. Thanks for the advice, I'll be more careful about what I share. If you think it's more prudent and better, I'll delete my messages about it.

It is up to you and any concern you might have. I think it is good info. Just that here in the U.S. this kind of thing can get you hauled into court for someone's stupidity and they will try to blame you. I don't know how things are where you live.

Tim

[Graysmoke]

I tried tp char found good powder and a little cleaner than red cedar. Still my density never reaches what others get so I just up the charge by 5 to 10 grains.I tried dropping a 50 by volume factory and it weighed 48 after 3 tries, mine will drop 42 or 43 grs. close as I can get. I tried 76 14 10 didn't see a lot of difference, maybe 76 15 9 would be better.
Graysmoke

[Trapper-Jack]

I recently bit the bullet and bought a chronograph and have been running some numbers on some of my different charcoal. Some of you may be interested in my results. All my powder has been the 75/15/10 ratio with the potassium nitrate being the greenhouse grade 99.8% and the sulfur being the garden sulfur 90% from the farm store. I bumped up the sulfur weight by 10% to compensate for the 90% purity and didn't see any velocity difference. All the powder was milled 20+ hours in a Harbor Freight rock tumbler with 9mm shell casings filled with lead for the media. It was pucked with a 20 ton jack and ground with a grain grinder passing the #16 sieve and retained on the #3. The wood for the charcoal is Cedar, Quaking Aspen, Blue Spruce, Hybrid Willow and Juniper. These were all compared to 2F Goex. Each 5 shot string was shot from a Lyman 50 caliber Great Plains flintlock with a weighed 65 grains behind a cast round ball and a spit patch. The fouling seems to be quite soft and with the spit patch I don't have any issues with loading or loss of accuracy.
Goex - Average - 1390 fps, ES - 35, SD - 15
Cedar - Average - 1194. ES - 39, SD 15
Willow - Average - 1430, ES - 24, SD - 9
Quakie - Average 1448, ES - 91, SD - 38
Spruce - Average - 1463, ES - 36, SD - 15
Juniper - Average 1493, ES - 41, SD - 15
In defense of the Cedar velocity, it was made from shredded pet bedding and may not have been the best wood.
Where my willow didn't have the most energy or highest velocity, it seems to have the lowest extreme spread and standard deviation. Besides, I've also got a lifetime supply along the back of my property so unless something else is dramatically better with the ES and SD, this is what I'll stick with.
I've picked up some Cottonwood limbs to try out but I suspect it will be something like the Quakie.

[DoubleBuck]

Trapper-Jack;
Nice tests! I've often wondered about Juniper and Quakie both. They all seem to be viable and worthy of use, or further development. I guess the Spruce was Blue? Thanks for the input!

[Trapper-Jack]

Yes, the spruce was Colorado Blue Spruce. I'm thinking that any of these trees would be a good candidate for good powder.

[DoubleBuck]

Graysmoke;
Your results mirror mine, with the two types of TP charcoal I've produced. It is very light density and difficult (for me) to get it over 1.6 G/CC. You may find that even though the powder is light, it may produce equal or greater velocities, per grain of weight. It seems very energetic.

[Graysmoke]

DoubleBuck;
Tp char does shoot well, I milled for 10 hrs after 9 it kept wadding up on the side wall. Tapping the wall put it back down but I didn’t think it would get any better. Trapper-jack has good info, makes me think cedar would show a poi difference do to velocity drop. Well I will still have a good time burning it, still have 2 lbs of it.
Graysmoke

[dtknowles]

Graysmoke;
Your results mirror mine, with the two types of TP charcoal I've produced. It is very light density and difficult (for me) to get it over 1.6 G/CC. You may find that even though the powder is light, it may produce equal or greater velocities, per grain of weight. It seems very energetic.

I made balsa charcoal this past fortnight and the powder came out light but seems fast and energetic. Chrono is on the fritz or I would have data to share. Since I did not have a working chrono I shot it in my Rem #4 .32 RF and a .22 Stevens tip up pistol. I am kind of growing fond of this Rem #4 rifle, I shot it today with a variety of ammo all using .22 rf adapter cases. Some black powder and acorn blanks some with just nail sets. Some with round balls some with healed bullets. Black powder, the acorn blanks and outside lubed healed bullets seems just the ticket. In the Stevens tip up pistol I breach seated a .22 air rifle pellet, filled the chamber with fine BP and topped with the acorn blank.
Tim

[StevenDJ]

DoubleBuck;
... it kept wadding up on the side wall. Tapping the wall put it back down but ...
Graysmoke

Greysmoke,

Can you tell me what this type of clumping behaviour indicates. I run my mill out at the farm and don't always have the opportunity to come and tap the sides back in periodically. It often clumps. I use a 12 hour mill in a 4 inch diameter jar with 3/4 inch ceramic media.

I'd be interested in your interpretation of this observation.

Steve

[LAGS]

I take it that you only use the Ceramic Media for milling the Charcoal and not the BP ?
One suggestion for helping the stuff from lumping against the wall if the mill is to add a few balls of media that are not perfectly round.
The perfectly round balls will form a pattern and then roll in the same pattern.
That can push the powder against the wall of the mill and the balls just roll over it .
Mis shaped balls will bounce every once in a while allowing it to break up that material that is against the mill drum walls.
Just something you can try for your situation.

[HWooldridge]

I use bronze triangles. I poured some molten bronze into the inside of a piece of angle iron that had its ends closed then cut the resulting bar into 1” pieces. The corners have a good effect on mixing.

[Graysmoke]

StevenDj; LAGS is spot on. I think some dampness is involved some batches do this in as little as 6 hrs. I have also tried egg sinkers they waddle around in the mill this might help. Some have said on other sites that when it wads up its done, I kinda question that thinking. I offten wonder why some mill for 24 hrs seems excessive when I get good powder in 10. maybe I’m missing something.
Graysmoke

[dondiego]

I take it that you only use the Ceramic Media for milling the Charcoal and not the BP ?
One suggestion for helping the stuff from lumping against the wall if the mill is to add a few balls of media that are not perfectly round.
The perfectly round balls will form a pattern and then roll in the same pattern.
That can push the powder against the wall of the mill and the balls just roll over it .
Mis shaped balls will bounce every once in a while allowing it to break up that material that is against the mill drum walls.
Just something you can try for your situation.

Is there a problem with using ceramic media with BP?

[HamGunner]

Greysmoke,

Can you tell me what this type of clumping behaviour indicates. I run my mill out at the farm and don't always have the opportunity to come and tap the sides back in periodically. It often clumps. I use a 12 hour mill in a 4 inch diameter jar with 3/4 inch ceramic media.

I'd be interested in your interpretation of this observation.
Steve

I started drying my ingredients before mixing and tossing into the mill and I think extra dry ingredients helps a bunch to prevent clumping.

I imagine myself that an irregular shaped media might help reduce clumping as well. I always used .32, .38, .45, and 12 gauge round ball all mixed together, but since I also added some .380 conicals as well, what little clumping remained after I started using dry ingredients has about gone away.

I think the first thing I would do would be to prepare the ingredients to a really fine consistency, then dry at least your Potassium Nitrate in the oven prior to weighing, mixing, and milling. I forgot what the percentage of moisture that I drove off, but I measured it once and it was enough to throw off the formula by a few percent.

I have around 12 lbs. of media in a 15 lb. Thumblers Tumbler type mill with a hexagon shaped tub and using very fine dry ingredients I get good results without clumps in no more than 10 hours milling time. Probably done by 8 hours, but I shoot for 10 hours just to be sure.

About every 2 hours I will jerk the tub off the mill and shake it up a bit just to make certain that it is getting mixed well, but since it is not much wider than it is tall, it mixes well anyway. I suspect a really long tub would need a bit of help along the way to get perfect blending.

[LAGS]

I am not positive that Ceramic Media can spark enough to fire off your powder.
The round ceramic media should not spark. But if it chips , there is always that Minor Chance.
I just am not going to take that chance.
Using several sizes of ball media works better also, because it gets closer together.
But after hours of milling , the balls all work into a set pattern and don’t tumble , they just roll.
That can eventually cause the powder to stack against the wall of the drum.
Especially with moisture or humidity.

[DoubleBuck]

I'm with Ham and LAGS on the clumping. Every time I have experienced it, drying the ingredients has been the solution. Brown charcoal powder is hard to mill, because of the creosote left in it.
I bought 250 9mm 147 grain FMJ bullets and use 125 in each of my mill jars. It made a world of difference on the quality of my milling. I was using 69 caliber lead balls in them. The balls worked well, but I kept finding weight gain in my finished powder, and finally chased it down to the lead balls wearing into the powder.
I've seen powder absorb enough moisture from just high relative humidity, to clump in as little as 15 minutes.
Keep your powder dry.

[StevenDJ]

Is there a problem with using ceramic media with BP?


Oh dear, I said 'Ceramic Media' and opened the can of worms again. :)

Here is my take on the idea...
1 - Lead media adds lead dust to the powder.
2 - Lead is toxic and I don't want it in my powder. Handling lead is not toxic unless you lick your fingers, but breathing the dust is a known entry point to the body.
3 - Ceramic media is non-toxic and works efficiently as a milling media.
4 - I mill my powder on an 18 acre parcel of land and my milling is at least 3-400 metres from any building (I use a solar powered treadmill converted to a ball mill).
5 - Can ceramic spark? I am sure it could, but it comes down to probability, and I think (not a very scientific way of approaching the matter) that probability is low.

Really what I am doing is weighing a known risk against a potential and mitigating the potential risk by milling in a remote location.

My experience is little. I have only made about 3kg of powder in total. Maybe we should be taking our advice from the seasoned veterans of the group here.

AS FOR CLUMPING...

I have experimented with oven drying my KNO3 and found that it made some difference, but clumping still occurred. Hmmm, maybe this is all just part of the magic of the process.

HamGunner, I think your ideas on mill jar dimensions has some merit. My jars are probably 10" long and 4" diameter.

LAGS, maybe it is time for me to try adding a few random shapes to the mill jar.

Thanks for your input everyone!

Steve

[LAGS]

The Odd shape is probably why using full jacketed or plated bullets is good for milling.
Plus the elimination of the lead exposure.

[Sledgehammers_at_Dawn]

I compressed my first batch of black powder today. It is more grey than black. Is that normal?
I milled the charcoal and sulfur separately and the potassium nitrate and a little charcoal separately for 6 hours then combined it all and milled it for 5.5 hours. I’ll let it dry and mill it next weekend.
Lots of fun!

[DoubleBuck]

Grey is normal Sledge. Probably have a ring to them resembling ceramic when dinged. Best of luck!

[dtknowles]

Oh dear, I said 'Ceramic Media' and opened the can of worms again. :)

Here is my take on the idea...........

HamGunner, I think your ideas on mill jar dimensions has some merit. My jars are probably 10" long and 4" diameter.

LAGS, maybe it is time for me to try adding a few random shapes to the mill jar.

Thanks for your input everyone!

Steve

I think you are on to the solution. You drum is too much a tube should either be larger in diameter or shorter in length or both. Randomness would be your friend, is your media all the same, should have some variation and not be spherical.

Tim

[2TM101]

I use bronze triangles. I poured some molten bronze into the inside of a piece of angle iron that had its ends closed then cut the resulting bar into 1” pieces. The corners have a good effect on mixing.

I use washers, pennies, Some bronze round ball and a Frizzen that would not spark. I have a National Geographic rock tumbler I use for wet tumbling small amounts of cases and that's the same thing I put in there.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I use 40 S&W brass that has no other good use. I press in a few 36cal pure lead boolits so I have good weight and density. I do have some brass balls, but they are very expensive. The 40 brass is free and only a few pennies worth of lead is consumed.

[Nobade]

I just ground up and screened my first batch of TP powder. You guys weren't kidding when you said it was light! 100 grains in my volume measure only weighs 86 grains. It sure does flash fast, I'm hoping to get to shoot some this weekend.

[LAGS]

If your 100 gr volume only weighs 86 gr , then that is pretty dense homemade powder.
Especially if it was screened powder not corned powder.
Yesterday I made some TP charcoal.
I agree that the volume of the charcoal is very light.
I did 4 rolls of toilet paper.
It produced 4.2 oz of air fly charcoal.
But the volume of it is way greater than charcoal that I made from other woods.

[HamGunner]

I just ground up and screened my first batch of TP powder. You guys weren't kidding when you said it was light! 100 grains in my volume measure only weighs 86 grains. It sure does flash fast, I'm hoping to get to shoot some this weekend.

My corned TP velocity has actually been normally a bit faster than my Goex per same weight. I think the corned TP has been running right around 98% density compared to the same volume of Goex.

Since I normally shoot C&B revolvers the most, I certainly welcome the extra strength of the TP compared to even my best Sassafras. I have been able to drop a grain in charge for my pet load in my test revolver. Plus it is so darned easy to cook up and prepare. After cooking, I just toss the charred rolls into my mill and in 30 minutes or less, it is air float. It is very fine and fluffy with no debarking, cutting up, or grinding needed. Plus, no screening needed either. It's ready to go.

[Nobade]

Exactly what I experienced. Two rolls fit in a gallon paint can and by using Jake's 77-13-10 mix produced right at 500 grams of powder. I did have to mill the charcoal in two batches because the whole two rolls wouldn't fit in my jar. But within 10 minutes it was fine airfloat and fit fine. I was just surprised at how light the powder is, since I can usually hit around 95% density.

And a warning - I managed to break my second press plate pressing these pucks. Those Harbor Freight press plates are cast, and not really up to this task. I am going to cut some real steel ones at work to replace them. It was pretty dramatic to be pulling on the handle with all my weight when suddenly there wasn't anything there to push against.

[LAGS]

This latest. Batch of TP charcoal was done with 4 normal sized rolls stuffed into a gallon can.
I had cut out the cardboard roller with scissors.
I put the gallon can in my closed barbecue on that side is Propane only.
I cooked it till the smoke started slowing down.
But the smoke did start and stop often as it was cooking, probably because that gallon can was stuffed so full.
But occasionally check the TP to make sure you aren’t totally turning it into Ash.

[HamGunner]

I just edited my above post about the density of my recent TP charred Black Powder. I just now re-weighed both my older Sassafras as well as my recent TP powders and the Sassafras is more like 94%, but the TP is much closer to Goex at around 98%.

No wonder I have been able to decrease by one grain my most accurate load with my Pietta 1851 Navy .36 cal. in order to retain the best accuracy. I guess the TP is right there side-beside Goex in density, but the TP actually gives more velocity for the same weight/volume. I think I like it. Have not seen anything negative about it yet, except that it is just plain too easy to make. :awesome:

Now, I just can not stop there and call it quits. Now I am tempted to play with the formula just a bit. Maybe my next batch will be 76-15-9. Certainly has no problem igniting, so a smidgen less sulfur should not be a problem.

[HamGunner]

And a warning - I managed to break my second press plate pressing these pucks. Those Harbor Freight press plates are cast, and not really up to this task. I am going to cut some real steel ones at work to replace them. It was pretty dramatic to be pulling on the handle with all my weight when suddenly there wasn't anything there to push against.

I don't think those Harbor Freight presses are capable of steady use. I was using a 12 Ton jack with my Harbor Freight press and it was buckling the lower cross beam that holds those press plates. I replaced them with some heavier rectangular steel tubing.

I have since gone to a 20 ton jack since my 12 ton gave out, and so far everything is holding up. It is groaning a wee bit when at top pressure, but not bending.

I have a 1/4" steel plate placed on top of those cast press plates, so I am not having any trouble with those.

[Trapper-Jack]

HamGunner, of the woods that I have compared to Goex (Hybrid Willow, Spruce, Quakie, and Juniper) they have all performed more energetic than Goex when compared weight to weight. However I've only been able to get about 92-93% density when compared to weight to volume. I have been filling an adjustable powder measure to the 100 grain mark and weighing it. Goex will be pretty much 100 grains where my powder is weighing in at around 92 grains. One thing I discovered as a side note is that all powder measures are not created equal. I have several and some of them will measure out powder a little on the strong side. I now use the same measure for all my comparisons.
As for the 9% sulfur, I have been using 90% garden sulfur at 10% of my powder ratio and it has been doing well. You should have no problem lighting off your 76-15-9 powder.

[HamGunner]

One thing I discovered as a side note is that all powder measures are not created equal. I have several and some of them will measure out powder a little on the strong side. I now use the same measure for all my comparisons.

I also have found this to be true, but I do not have anything as large as 100gr. capacity. I suppose I need to compare my powders with a larger volume measure in order to lessen the inaccuracies in my weights. But, nonetheless, I am happy with my better woods performance and certainly overjoyed with the TP.

I used to dread starting a new batch of Black because it would take me days to get all the steps and procedures down before I could finally sit down and grind up and screen it to get the finished product. Now, I have shortened so many of my steps as I have learned new ways, mostly from taking advice from others here on this thread. We all have come up with better ideas, so what we have shared has really made this previous Chore an actual enjoyable endeavor. Certainly the use of TP charcoal has lessened the nastiness and work load a whole bunch more.

[dtknowles]

Ok, I got my Chrono working. So I went and tested some powder. I used my Ruger Old Army.

324084

I started with a 6 o'clock hold and raised my aim point a few times until I was aiming dead center. I only shot a few shots of each load so I would not be at the range all day so understand the data is not precise just ballpark. All charges are by volume with a measure that I checked and set at 40 gr. it delivers a 40 gr charge of Goex 3f. I was not testing for accuracy but was focused on getting velocity data.

I shot round balls and semi-wadcutters.

324085

Old Goex 3f with round ball 35 gr 900 fps, 40 gr 1030 fps, 45 gr 1195 fps
New Goex 3f with round ball 40 gr. 1090 fps
New Goex 3f with 230 gr semi-wadcutter 35 gr. 895 fps
Old Goex 2f with round ball 40 gr 960 fps
My Balsa BP with round ball 40 gr 615 fps, 50 gr 950 fps
My Cedar BP with round ball 40 gr 690 fps, 50 gr 917 fps

My black power is pucked but in a vice so I don't get really high density and it will compress way more than the Goex. 45 gr is all the Goex that will fit under a round ball in my ROA. 50 gr is the chambers filled flush to the top, not really precise. I could maybe squeeze more my powder into the chambers since it compresses a lot but I did not bother to try.

just an aside, I went into my cap stash and look what I found!

324086

bought a Walmart in 2019

Tim

[2TM101]

I don't think those Harbor Freight presses are capable of steady use. I was using a 12 Ton jack with my Harbor Freight press and it was buckling the lower cross beam that holds those press plates. I replaced them with some heavier rectangular steel tubing. I have since gone to a 20 ton jack since my 12 ton gave out, and so far everything is holding up. It is groaning a wee bit when at top pressure, but not bending.
I have a 1/4" steel plate placed on top of those cast press plates, so I am not having any trouble with those.

I got a 6 ton jack & press from Amazon for about $90. Discovered 6T is not enough for a Woodys die, but does okay with a 40mm 'DabPress" die. After four years of heavy use the Chinese jack started leaking oil and the fill port is actually painted over like they don't want you to fix it. So I won't, I got a 10 ton press from Amazon for less than $30. I figure thats about all this stand can take.

[Graysmoke]

2TM101; I’ve been using a 20 ton harbor freight press with the 30 mm dab press and belled the mouth so I got a 40 mm press to replace it. The stainless steel units can be over powered and become useless, I cut off the bell and still pressed till I got the 40. I do not put as much to this one as the other. Still getting the same density so I saw no advantage to pushing it as hard, just can't go the woody route yet and I don’t know if it will take the pressure being aluminum and as thin walled as it looks.

[HamGunner]

I have a 3" Woody's die and the die itself is very sturdy stainless steel. I now use a 20 ton jack and it works well. I had to beef up the Harbor Freight press stand a bit as even when I was still using a 12 ton jack before it went South, it was more than the stock press stand wanted on a regular basis.

[Graysmoke]

HamGunner; is your frame a 12 or 20 ton? I have a 20 ton and have not broken a plate as LAGS did nor bent the lower rails. I began by pumping till no go let sit 1 minute then try to get 1 or 2 more or ever I can get, let soak for another minute then remove. Density is probably 95 to 98% of factory, but this belled my ss dab press! I laid into it to much, I’m 6’2” and 248 lbs so it didn’t take alot of effort to put to much onto the die so I backed off a bit.
Graysmoke

[LAGS]

My HF 20 ton press has done great.
It wasn’t mine that broke the plate or bent the frame.
That press was bought at a great price and is well worth it.
I use the two factory steel plates sitting on the cross bars with a piece of flat 1/2” steel plate on top of them, only to cover the holes in the factory plates .
My max density has only been 92%
Most of my stuff only reaches 86% density.
I just don’t see being able to consistently get density up in the 98% range or higher.
Too me
Trying to raise that density all the way to match factory powder is just not worth the ticky tack effort.

[dtknowles]

I was thinking I could weld up a much smaller frame to press pucks. Thinking about it and getting it done are two different things, I was also thinking I would rig something to run off my air compressor. My buddy has a press that works that way and we have a bend testing machine at work that way as well. It does not seem like it would be hard or expensive.

Of course, harbor freight is not a mile away, I could just go get something from them.
TEK

[Graysmoke]

Don’t I feel like a fool! Misread my notes, 95-98% was my target actual is 85-87% of factory. But still shoots good! Just have to add ant 10 grs. or so by volume to be where I want to be.
Graysmoke

[dtknowles]

The thing is, the beauty of muzzleloaders is you reload with whatever charge makes you happy. I used to think that I should shoot my 50's like they were magnums with 100 gr. or more of 3f Goex. I know better now. I mean, I could put 120 gr. of my homemade BP in one but why? 70 gr. is certainly enough most of the time. Even in the ROA density is not that important, it has plenty of boiler room. If I can get 900 fps with a round ball that is more than good enough.
Tim

[Nobade]

Yeah, I was the one who broke the press plates. I should have known better and put a steel plate over them like LAGS. I am using a 20 ton HF press and a 2.5 inch die I made from hydraulic tubing.

I have also been thinking about adding power to this press. I have a power steering pump from my Honda car, and several electric motors. I'd need to buy a valve and buy or build a tank, and round up a cylinder but all together it wouldn't be too tough to build. I'm not sure it would gain me anything though, other than less pumping the handle and the ability to set a particular pressure target.

I did get to shoot some TP powder this weekend, it makes the 38 special quite lively! It also worked well in the rifled musket. This first batch didn't last very long, guess I need to be going into production with it.

Oh, tumbling media - 40 S&W cartridge cases with the bullets inserted backward and crimped with a tool I made on the lathe. It's time to replace the lead balls, and this seems like it should work. Thanks to whomever suggested it!

[Sandro_ventania]

Better than a stronger press is a smaller diameter mold and pressing a smaller quantity at a time. I use a 10 ton press and get a higher density than the Goex.

[Graysmoke]

I have 9mm brass I want to fill with molten lead to switch out lead balls. I have listened about lead in the powder, so that’s the next change.
I press 1 teaspoonful in the 40 mm dabpress and the pucks click if tapped together( even louder when dried ) so good to go!
Graysmoke

[HamGunner]

HamGunner; is your frame a 12 or 20 ton?
Graysmoke

I have a 3" die and it needs close to 11 ton pressure to give the 3,500 psi minimum pressure recommended according to a chart that someone posted probably a few hundred or more posts back. I have the Harbor Freight frame that comes with a 12 ton jack, so I am sure it was only rated for that. The 12 ton jack was bending the lower support rails so I had to replace them with much sturdier rectangular steel. My 12 ton jack shot craps so I got a 20 ton to replace it thinking that I could just stop cranking the jack when I thought it had enough. But, you know how it is. I just crank it down to where I can barely manage to pull the handle down and when the press frame is starting to complain.

I have always had a flat 1/4" steel plate placed on top of the two lower support rail base plates so I have had no problems with them breaking. I do have a bit of an upward bulge in the top support beams. I think the Harbor Freight 12 ton press set up was just barely capable of 12 ton as it comes. With my improvements, it is certainly barely capable of handling 20 tons, but so far it is holding. I did notice that the two cross adjustment support rods were starting to bend, so I will have to get some harder adjustment support rods or give up on the under sized press and get a proper size.

I just pressed another 1 1/2 lb. batch of TP today with some added TP fines left over from my last batch. I am going to do a much more meticulous measurement of the density after I have it dried, ground, and screened. A measurement just for my own knowledge if nothing else. But whatever it ends up being is what it will be, but whatever true density it is, it has been making very fine powder.

I charred three rolls of TP this time in my large pressure pan, on my fish fryer burner, which has a fine tuning gas flow adjustment for managing the heat. I have a baffle in the bottom of the pan to keep the TP up off the bottom and I have a round weld wire cage that I made to keep the TP from touching the sides of the pan. A temperature gauge placed down into the center of the pressure release stem in the lid t so I can keep a very close eye on the internal temperature. This batch I made sure that the temperature never got above 550 F. My first batch got up to 600 F and I charred it a little longer than one hour. I think it was a slight bit over charred.

One hour of cook time for this batch gave me some really nice dark golden brown colored charred TP. It was still smoking just a bit when I took it off the heat. Just 30 minutes in the mill and it was air float. I think this batch will be very energetic.

[DoubleBuck]

HamGunner:
That's what I'm talking about! I'm really interested to hear reports on this batch! That is my next project, but have been busy on other things. But, I'm planning on making a brown batch, and trying a different recipe and a somewhat different grain size to compare results. I hope yours comes out beautiful and please kick those numbers out, when you can!

[Linstrum]

DoubleBuck I sent you a private message.

[2TM101]

I have a 3" Woody's die and the die itself is very sturdy stainless steel. I now use a 20 ton jack and it works well. I had to beef up the Harbor Freight press stand a bit as even when I was still using a 12 ton jack before it went South, it was more than the stock press stand wanted on a regular basis.

A 12 ton jack with the Woodys die just barely does it. You get 3428 PSI and for Sulfur to plasticize the number I have is 3500, which sounds rounded off, so maybe close enough. I only get 2857 with my 10 ton so I still have a Woodys die I can't use - at least with BP.

Though I just had a thought: what if I am re-pucking fines? They were subjected to 10,000 PSI when they were pucked the first time - the Sulfur has been converted. If I could use the Woodys die the second time around it would be 3 1/2 times faster as it would be a 7 sq in puck as opposed to 2 (40mm)

[2TM101]

2TM101; I’ve been using a 20 ton harbor freight press with the 30 mm dab press and belled the mouth so I got a 40 mm press to replace it.

A 30mm DabPress is 1 sq in. You have been giving it 40,000 PSI. I can see why it bent. You will get 5700 PSI with a 3" diameter (7 Sq In) Woodys die and really should go that way.

Sulfur only needs 3500 PSI to convert. I have been using a 40mm with a 6 ton press and have been getting 6000 PSI from it, which is close to what you would get with a 20 ton press and a 3" puck die. And still way more than needed to make the Sulfur change.

[Graysmoke]

2TH101; I pucked up 1/2 # yesterday and dried with some warm air ground it and used some today. Volume measure when set at 100 grs throws 80 grs. I was loading cedar char to 90 grs to pull the same elevation poi. This I had to drop to 80 measured to close the group, I think it might be a little more energetic cause it started grouping 3” at 50 yds 3 1/2” at 100 yds.even though it is very light.
By the way I put a band around the 40 mm die just to watch for any belling, none so far. 80grs. is prob. at 76-78 but does well to start.

[HamGunner]

I just edited my above post about the density of my recent TP charred Black Powder. I just now re-weighed both my older Sassafras as well as my recent TP powders and the Sassafras is more like 94%, but the TP is much closer to Goex at around 98%.

Well, I completed my last batch of TP powder and I decided to really do a very careful measurement and calculation of just what the density ended up being compared to my Goex. I have a calibrated syringe and I was going to see what 100 grains measured, but it just so happens to hold exactly 200 grains of Goex when it is filled completely to the top. So I measured it three times with Goex and then three times with my recent TP powder.

My actual density of my TP, I believe, after a more careful test is now what I am claiming to only be 92.5 %. The weight of the syringe full of TP powder was a consistent 185 grains. That equates to 92.5% of 200 grains. I guess I was much closer when thinking it was around 94%. I really doubted it could possibly be the 98% that a quick test showed me. I likely measured it right after screening and before I let the screened grains air dry a bit more on cookie sheets, which is my normal procedure.

I wish it was 98%, but unless we can manage the extremely high and prolonged pressures that can be attained in a commercial factory, I guess we will likely have to accept lower densities. Milling the screened powder again without media and screening again might increase the density a small amount.

Nonetheless, I am happy with what I am getting. My methods have been improved many times and it is getting much less labor intensive for me now. It works and it works well. Plus, the price is right. :guntootsmiley:

[2TM101]

I have a 3" die and it needs close to 11 ton pressure to give the 3,500 psi minimum pressure recommended according to a chart that someone posted probably a few hundred or more posts back

The 3" die is 7 sq in of surface area 7 X 3500 = 24,500 so 12 1/4 tons. I'm not sure that last 1/4 ton is vital so a 12 ton press should do it.

In my case the first go around is a 6 ton press and a 40mm die, which is 2 Sq In. 2sq in X 12000 PSI needed = 6000 PSI and I only need 3500 so even if my my leaky Chinese jack is underperforming, even a lot, its enough.

After that I figure the Sulfur has been converted, so all the fines from the first run, like 40% of it (am I grinding it wrong?) go with the 3" Woodys die. 12000lb / 7 sq in is barely 1400 PSI. NOT enough to make the Sulfur "plasticize" but if that has already happened, it is enough to make another puck I can grind again - and over 3 times faster than using the original die.

[HamGunner]

NOT enough to make the Sulfur "plasticize" but if that has already happened, it is enough to make another puck I can grind again - and over 3 times faster than using the original die.

I would think that you would be just fine. Like you say, it already has been subjected to the pressure.

My 12 Ton jack only lasted for about my first three or four batches and it blew a seal. I have been using a 20 ton jack ever since for my 3" die. Likely a bit over kill, but then i do not hold the pressure as long a some seem to be doing.

[Sandro_ventania]

the new video of everything black powder, says that pressing up to 1.5g/cc produces cleaner powder. So I see that popping the hydraulic jack is a waste of time.

[2TM101]

the new video of everything black powder, says that pressing up to 1.5g/cc produces cleaner powder. So I see that popping the hydraulic jack is a waste of time.

The pucked/corned powder has two advantages. One is that it is better suited to guns where capacity is limited, like revolvers and cartridges, because you can get more in. The other is nice hard granules that hold their shape.

The problem with screened powder is that it has much weaker granules. You can use more volume in a one shot gun but if you use too much force seating the ball it will start to crumble back into dust. Which probably happens a lot, actually. And depending on how much of it crumbled, the burn rate will vary quite a bit and accuracy will be non existent.

[HamGunner]

the new video of everything black powder, says that pressing up to 1.5g/cc produces cleaner powder. So I see that popping the hydraulic jack is a waste of time.

I agree with your assessment, and Jake's, if one is muzzle loading, but only to a certain degree even there. I am sure we most all agree that crushed powder will not give as consistent a pressure from shot to shot as denser powder that is much harder to crush. Perhaps 1.5g/cc is plenty hard enough not to crush under normal muzzle loading procedures, and in that case, then perhaps Jake is correct, at least for his type of use. And cleanliness is certainly very desirable if the other factors are good as well, but if accuracy was more desirable, I could live with the need for a bit more cleaning along the way if denser powder helped with accuracy.

I like Jake's videos, although I do not always agree with everything he does or says. For the most part, he seems to be fairly accurate in his assessments for making the powder as well as for muzzle loading, but I shoot probably 90% of my Black Powder in revolvers. Most of that in Cap n Ball revolvers, with a small amount in cartridge revolvers, but only around 10% in muzzle loaders. Jake's assessments therefore only fit my needs part way. I need as much density as I can get so I can more completely fill my chambers or cartridge cases and get as little resulting pressure variation as possible, and the cleanliness is not quite as important to me, even if his assessment about that is correct.

I do not believe that I am wasting MY time by striving for the higher densities. For other's needs, you are perhaps very correct and it is not nearly such an important factor.

[Sandro_ventania]

I agree with your assessment, and Jake's, if one is muzzle loading, but only to a certain degree even there. I am sure we most all agree that crushed powder will not give as consistent a pressure from shot to shot as denser powder that is much harder to crush. Perhaps 1.5g/cc is plenty hard enough not to crush under normal muzzle loading procedures, and in that case, then perhaps Jake is correct, at least for his type of use. And cleanliness is certainly very desirable if the other factors are good as well, but if accuracy was more desirable, I could live with the need for a bit more cleaning along the way if denser powder helped with accuracy.

I like Jake's videos, although I do not always agree with everything he does or says. For the most part, he seems to be fairly accurate in his assessments for making the powder as well as for muzzle loading, but I shoot probably 90% of my Black Powder in revolvers. Most of that in Cap n Ball revolvers, with a small amount in cartridge revolvers, but only around 10% in muzzle loaders. Jake's assessments therefore only fit my needs part way. I need as much density as I can get so I can more completely fill my chambers or cartridge cases and get as little resulting pressure variation as possible, and the cleanliness is not quite as important to me, even if his assessment about that is correct.

I do not believe that I am wasting MY time by striving for the higher densities. For other's needs, you are perhaps very correct and it is not nearly such an important factor.

If you need high density, then do as I do. A mold measuring no more than 2 inches and thin discs, no more than 1/4 inch. I can get up to 2g/cc.

[HWooldridge]

If you need high density, then do as I do. A mold measuring no more than 2 inches and thin discs, no more than 1/4 inch. I can get up to 2g/cc.

Or use a bigger press - I have a 50 ton Dake and generally press to 25 tons on a 2” puck.

[Nobade]

And as Brett Gibbons explained in his book, the English powder made at Waltham Abbey was pressed to 1.5g/cc because they found it gave higher muzzle velocity and was cleaner burning. I don't like to go below that because the grains are not hard enough but I don't worry too much about absolute density, I just figure out the difference in a particular batch of powder compared to what my measure is calibrated for and adjust accordingly. And yes, that sometimes gives a bit lighter loads in cartridges. It seems to work fine in revolvers since the best load is seldom completely full so there's room for a bit more.

[HamGunner]

the new video of everything black powder, says that pressing up to 1.5g/cc produces cleaner powder. So I see that popping the hydraulic jack is a waste of time.
I can get up to 2g/cc.

Then if popping a jack in an attempt to get decent density is a waste of time, do tell us why you waste your time getting 2g/cc.

And I really am not after all that much density myself. My thinking is that close to 1.7g/cc would likely be more than enough for my uses in cartridges or Cap n Ball and I am likely getting that presently. I am very happy with my results, popping seals on jacks or not.

[Sandro_ventania]

Then if popping a jack in an attempt to get decent density is a waste of time, do tell us why you waste your time getting 2g/cc.

And I really am not after all that much density myself. My thinking is that close to 1.7g/cc would likely be more than enough for my uses in cartridges or Cap n Ball and I am likely getting that presently. I am very happy with my results, popping seals on jacks or not.

This is easy to answer! Just to know that I can do it if I want or need it. In the same way, I try to make Black powder better and better just to know that I can. I can get a powder as good or almost as good as Black powder, in 10 minutes on the pan and stove, without any need to have a ball mill running for 24 hours, without needing to make charcoal, without needing to press. The most fun isn't the end result, it's the journey there!

[indian joe]

The pucked/corned powder has two advantages. One is that it is better suited to guns where capacity is limited, like revolvers and cartridges, because you can get more in. The other is nice hard granules that hold their shape.

The problem with screened powder is that it has much weaker granules. You can use more volume in a one shot gun but if you use too much force seating the ball it will start to crumble back into dust. Which probably happens a lot, actually. And depending on how much of it crumbled, the burn rate will vary quite a bit and accuracy will be non existent.

couple things I would argue "better in revolvers" cartridge revolvers yeah ---not cap and ball though just fill the cylinders flush, compress with the loading lever, put a ball in - we use screened powder in ALL our muzleloaded guns.

non existent accuracy ???? baloney - I tested - no loss of accuracy compared to our stock compare of Goex ---n I got the trophys on the shelf to prove the point

Using 2% home cooked Dextrin in screened powder - yeah its not as tough and hard as pucked but we got three year old screened powder here been stored in the horn hangin on a peg like the old days - carted to the range several times - still got decent grain structure ---dunno what we're doin different but I will shoot screened in our front loaders till the cows come home.

[shaman]

I have a question for y'all: what size are your balls? What are they made of?

No, not those balls! I mean the balls y'all stick in with your powder when you send them through the ball mill. On my first batch of BP, I just grabbed what was handy: .715 cal pure lead balls from my Brown Bess. Those worked fine, but now that I've proved that I can make BP, I'm interested in refining my technique.

[swamp]

I use .600 rb hard cast.
swamp

[HamGunner]

I have about 2 dozen hard alloy 12 gauge ball along with a good many 45, 38, and 32 cal. ball. Some are concerned about using soft lead because of it wearing down and mixing with the powder. If I replace anything, I will likely go to either harder lead or alternate materials. Anyway, with a mixture of sizes, I feel that I get a better mill.

[LAGS]

Congratulations HG
You are the first one to be on page 400 of this thread .
I am not that concerned about my Hard lead balls leaving too much lead in my powder.
But then I cast the balls out of Monotype lead.
But lately I just switched to using 230 gr .45 cap plated slugs in my ball mill .
They work great and you only need that one size slug in the mill .
The semi round shape seems
to not bunch up and roll in one sheet in the mill .
The odd shape helps prevent the powder from building up in a a layer on the walls of the mill.

[Graysmoke]

HG & LAGS;
I filled 9mm cases and some 45 long cases with lead. I tumbled to see if lead chips developed and sure enough even flush filled cases bumping into the ends scraped off lead. Now I will drill ends under flush and repeen the shell ends so crashing cases can't get at the lead. There was a notable amt of flakes in the clean tub I used, am glad I found it before milling.
Graysmoke

[Sandro_ventania]

I want to get brass. seems to be the ideal material.

[LAGS]

Brass balls would be great.
I don’t have my foundry any more or I would cast myself up some .
They are available. , but EXPENSIVE

[Nobade]

I was using .490" balls I cast out of some zinc contaminated lead, they are really hard and I thought they would be great. But they're considerably smaller now than they started out as. So I just switched to 40 S&W cases with bullets seated backward below the case mouth and tightly crimped over, plus I ordered some brass balls on Amazon today. They are 10mm, and cost $10 for 20. I got 40, so I'll see how the mix of the two things works.

[dondiego]

I own a Frankford Arsenal Rotary Tumbler (FART) and I believe that it is the smaller model. It seems that I read on this thread that it is not suitable for ball milling BP but I forgot the reason why? Can someone enlighten me please?

[Sandro_ventania]

I own a Frankford Arsenal Rotary Tumbler (FART) and I believe that it is the smaller model. It seems that I read on this thread that it is not suitable for ball milling BP but I forgot the reason why? Can someone enlighten me please?

Is the pot made of rubber? If so, that's why.

[indian joe]

I want to get brass. seems to be the ideal material.

picking up tomorrow 10 kg of used brass pump rod (outta old windmills) - no charge the man said (he sells a couple ton a year to the scrap guys) if I had acces to a decent guillotine the rest would be easy but dont so saw it up into little chunks with a tungsten tipped joinery saw.

[indian joe]

I was using .490" balls I cast out of some zinc contaminated lead, they are really hard and I thought they would be great. But they're considerably smaller now than they started out as. So I just switched to 40 S&W cases with bullets seated backward below the case mouth and tightly crimped over, plus I ordered some brass balls on Amazon today. They are 10mm, and cost $10 for 20. I got 40, so I'll see how the mix of the two things works.

so far I have used a mix sizes of leftover roundball (soft lead) - they have done about 40 cycles (1kg per cycle) and lookin a bit tired - most of the damage later - whilever they stayed round - not much loss (I measured some) but as soon as a few started to get out of shape I think wear accellerated a bit.

[DoubleBuck]

Shaman;
I used 69 caliber round balls of pure lead, from the beginning, to just two batches of powder ago. In my Harbor Freight two drum mill that has been enhanced, they worked great.
I found weight gain in my powder after milling and was going to do one of the many suggested options, which have been discussed at length over the last few years. I like the weight of lead, but didn't really feel like cutting copper pipe, or filling cartridge cases. I'm lazy.
So, after thinking on it for a year, I decided to go with 147 grain 9mm FMJ bullets I found on sale, if you can believe it. I bought 250 of them, and use 125 in each drum. I only use one drum at a time on my mill, because of the 'enhancements' I've made. My last two batches of powder have milled excellently and I am satisfied with my choice, out of the numerous ways to solve the problem. Good luck!
ETA: IF you do go the way I did, do NOT forget to check them for being magnetic!

[DoubleBuck]

I own a Frankford Arsenal Rotary Tumbler (FART) and I believe that it is the smaller model. It seems that I read on this thread that it is not suitable for ball milling BP but I forgot the reason why? Can someone enlighten me please?

Dondiego
I read about your FART and looked them up. If yours looks like the ones I looked at; I see no reason it should not work. I've heard someone say that that type of jar could unscrew the lid. I have no idea, but that could be very easily remedied, if it applied to yours. In times past, others have said the electric motor could be a problem, being below the load, and not offset. If you are aware of dust and take precautions in case a leak of powder dust does happen; load that FART up, and make you some powder!

[DoubleBuck]

Is the pot made of rubber? If so, that's why.
Sandro; why would a rubber drum matter?

[dondiego]

Is the pot made of rubber? If so, that's why.

My Thumler and Harbor Freight tumbler barrels are made of rubber. The FART is plastic.

[LAGS]

I have a RCBS rotary shell tumbler.
It doesn’t work for a powder tumbler
It just isn’t powerful enough.
But it works for tumbling brass well

[Sandro_ventania]

Sandro; why would a rubber drum matter?

Because it releases a lot of rubber dust. And that makes a very dirty BP. Have you ever burned an old tire and seen how much soot it releases? Imagine that in your barrel.

[DoubleBuck]

Because it releases a lot of rubber dust. And that makes a very dirty BP. Have you ever burned an old tire and seen how much soot it releases? Imagine that in your barrel.

I've never seen it from my rubber drums that have made 25 pounds of powder, but Ok.

[2TM101]

I actually went the other way on this. I got a National Geographic rock tumbler thats slightly larger than the small rotary tumbler most of us use. Idea was that I could make slightly larger batches of powder with it.

Instead I use it to clean brass. I come back with 100 or so BP .38 Special and I don't want to leave them around like that, or throw them in with my bin of smokeless 38 that aren't really all that dirty. The NatGeo tumbler is just about right for a 100-120 round load, and after changing the water twice the brass looks fine,even though the water is dirty even on the final run.

I did buy the full size Frankfort Arsenal tumbler - and its still in the box. I have never fired more brass in one day than will fit in the NatGeo tumbler.

[indian joe]

I want to get brass. seems to be the ideal material.

question for the crew
(my plan for scrap pump rod has imploded it turns out to be bronze pump shaft bearings - take as much as you want mate - but hard work cutting it tdon to suitable chunks - same bloke has a drum half full of stainless steel bolts )
question (dumb question) is there a danger of sparking in the mill drum using stainless steel ?????
thanks

[HWooldridge]

question for the crew
(my plan for scrap pump rod has imploded it turns out to be bronze pump shaft bearings - take as much as you want mate - but hard work cutting it tdon to suitable chunks - same bloke has a drum half full of stainless steel bolts )
question (dumb question) is there a danger of sparking in the mill drum using stainless steel ?????
thanks

Depends on what type of stainless - 400 series are martensitic so there is a chance of sparking. 300 series not so bad - might try to spark test the material on a sanding belt or grindstone and see whether you get any sparks.