Annealing Jackets [Archive]

bohica2xo

01-15-2011, 06:58 PM

Ok, let's do this again.

The title says Annealing Jackets. This includes fired brass cases to be used as bullet jackets. We are not discussing annealing necks for cartridge reloading.

It is important to anneal bullet jackets for best performance. No commercial bullet maker bypasses this step, and in fact some commercial bullet jackets are annealed more than once. When dealing with fired cases as jackets, this is even more important. You have no way to know how hard or soft any case is compared to another. Annealing puts all of the cases into the same condition.

Jackets need to be soft enough to engrave properly, and deform into the rifling grooves in the bore to make an effective seal. The head of a brass case that has not been fully annealed may not fill the corners of the rifling, and can give poor results. Hard jackets also increase the stress on die parts and press components, shortening the life of both.

Annealing Copper and Copper Alloys

Much misinformation exists in the firearms world regarding annealing copper & brass. Copper and it's alloys are metals of a face centered cubic structure that work hardens easily. As copper is moved or worked, the crystals are displaced or dislocated in relationship to each other. Annealing it requires raising the temperature high enough to allow the crystals to realign.

The minimum temperature required to properly anneal copper and it's alloys is easily calculated. Face centered cubic metals begin to anneal at just over half the absolute melting point. Sounds simple enough – pure copper melts @ 1356˚ Kelvin, so half of that would be 678˚ K or 405˚ C – about 761˚ F.

That is the minimum temperature for annealing pure copper. If you were to leave copper to soak at that temperature long enough it would become fully annealed. Nobody wants to wait that long. Raising the temperature reduces the time it takes to anneal. In an industrial environment, copper annealing usually takes place between 700˚C (1292˚F) to 900˚C (1652˚F). An average (85Cu 15Zn) Brass has a melting point of slightly less than copper (1213˚K), and a proper annealing range should be 650˚C to 725˚C for a short period of time. Because brass is a zinc alloy, heating times should be short to keep the zinc in the alloy.

As a frame of reference, Aluminum melts @ 659˚C or 1218˚F. If your heat source does not melt aluminum, it is not hot enough to anneal rapidly. If your heat source does not reach 750F, it will not anneal copper at all. Most kitchen appliances are not up to the annealing task, and should not be considered for this type of work. An inexpensive propane torch & a firebrick are a much better choice for annealing cases & jackets.

A word about quenching. Copper and it's alloys do not need to be quenched after heating to anneal. Quenching can reduce the oxidization, but is not part of the annealing process. Quench, air cool – it makes no difference to the copper or brass.

Some of you guys have self cleaning electric ovens. With a peak temp of 900˚F or so, and a cycle time around an hour, that should do just fine for annealing large lots of brass. A toaster oven will not do the job.

B.

JonB_in_Glencoe

01-25-2011, 06:57 PM

I begin by cutting used 5.7x28 cases to the length I need.
I use a Mini-chop saw from Harbor freight to cut.
I touch the blade with some beeswax boolit lube
about every 6 cuts for easier cutting.
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1562.jpg

The cases, just cut, go into a stainless collander.
Do not over fill the collander, one layer is just right.
about 100 cases, it goes quick...4 or 5 minutes.
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1567.jpg

I arrange the red coals, then add a small piece of wood.
I found the flame anneals them quicker, but a large flame
will melt them. Watch closely.
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1568.jpg

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1569.jpg

there will be hot spots, stir them around to rearrange the cases,
so they all get to glowing at some point.
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1570.jpg

Once they are fully annealed, let them cool-fast or slow, it doesn't matter.
For safety reasons, I drop them in cold water.
Then I put them into a nylon laundry bag and put that into a old
crock pot with my Citric acid bath cooking away.
(3 tblsp pure citric acid powder into 1 gallon water).
I leave them in there for 5 minutes.
then I rinse them at least twice.
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1575.jpg

Then I partly dry them on a towel.
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1571.jpg

I dry them the rest of the way on the wood stove,
or outside in the sun if it's summertime.
or an oven works too.
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1574.jpg

BT Sniper

01-26-2011, 02:06 AM

And they stay that bright and shinny days later? Man I should show you what mine look like after a few hours after my acid bath. I don't dry them off soon enough apperntly (Ok I didn't dry them at all, just pored them on a towel) or it is the difference between the pool ph reducer and your citric acid bath because mine go from bright and shiny to ugly tarnished look in a few hours. Then it is 8-12 hours in the tumbler getting them clean again.

Great pics and advise though. Thanks for posting it. I use the exact same stainless steel colender but I don't have a fire place. I did line the inside of my BBQ with fire brick though and now it getss real hot. I'll try and post some pics too. I annealed 5 gallons of 9mm and 5 gallons of 5.7 over the weekend and the tumbler has been on 24-7 ever sence.

If your brass stays that shiny with out tumbling I will for sure be picking up some of that citric acid.

Thanks Jon,

Swage On!

BT

BT Sniper

01-26-2011, 02:12 AM

I like the nylon bag idea! After rereading it a couple times I don't think we could make it any simpler without a kiln, at least you get the benifit of warming your house.

Great post!

Thanks B and Jon, this should really take care of any issues about annealing brass for jackets. Really can be very easy and fast.

Good shooting,

BT

bohica2xo

01-26-2011, 03:52 PM

Very nice, Jon B. Thanks for taking the time to post that.

All that oxygen will get rid of that polymer coating quick!

Brian:
Now you know why I kept saying pool acid should stay in the pool shed.

Citric acid does indeed passivate brass. Thanks to the other thread, there are lots of references to both suppliers of citric acid, and processing methods.

B.

BT Sniper

01-26-2011, 04:37 PM

Yep! I'll look into it. I may just agree to keep the pool acid in the pool too!

Great job guys. I did take your addvise on the fire bricks, nearly able to turn the BBQ into a kiln now. I'll have to take some pics soon.

Link to other thread on passivating brass with citric acid?? I'll find it soon enough but should one of you wish to make it easy for us, Thanks!

BT

357 Voodoo

01-26-2011, 04:47 PM

Here ya go BT http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=83572

Its a sticky in the kit room

JonB_in_Glencoe

01-26-2011, 07:10 PM

That is a loooooooooooooong thread.
Sagacious really knows his stuff, that's for sure.

Check out Post 215 through 220 on page 11.
summary is, once the citric solution starts turning blue,
it loses it's strength, but if you then dip a clean piece
of steel in it, it will copper plate it...Far out !

BT Sniper

01-26-2011, 07:31 PM

TNX! I'll check it out.

BT

01-26-2011, 07:49 PM

Well I asked around about how to anneal and from what I read I thought I did not have anything to do it with handy. I was thinking a fire would be to much and end up with melted brass. Super post wish I sent it sooner. All that being said this is what I came up with I am still fine tuning it but it takes about 20 sec to turn one red.
http://http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg31/Ricky1965/RELOADING/007.jpg
I think I will retire it and go with the SS basket and a fire looks alot easier and faster.

Ammosmith

02-01-2011, 11:22 PM

OK...silly question...can I take a pile of my rimfire brass...put them in my Dutch oven...use my gas plumber's furnace...and anneal them without over doing it?

ReloaderFred

02-02-2011, 01:49 AM

I borrowed an electric kiln from a friend and did 400 .40 S&W brass, with lead cores, the other night in about an hour, including warmup time for the kiln. I took them up to 1200 degrees and then let them cool. While they were cooking, I was able to do other stuff. What a breeze!

This sure beats holding them in the flame of my propane torch three at a time....

Hope this helps.

Fred

bohica2xo

02-02-2011, 04:04 AM

OK...silly question...can I take a pile of my rimfire brass...put them in my Dutch oven...use my gas plumber's furnace...and anneal them without over doing it?

Sure. It is hard to calibrate the temps you can reach with that kind of setup - but not impossible. I would recommend a couple of dry run tests to see what sort of temps you are getting. Then you can work out the timing to heat to the center of the mass of cases.

Start with the dutch oven clean inside. Place a couple of rimfire cases in it. Place a small ball (about 1/2 inch) of plain old aluminum foil in the pot too. Put the lid on & fire the pot.

Start checking the condition of the brass & aluminum every 10 minutes or so. Run for 30 minutes. The brass should be glowing brightly. Is the aluminum melted? When did it melt?

If the case melts, you are way too hot. If the aluminum melts, you are plenty hot. If the aluminum melted in 20 minutes, that is the time to use. Fill it up, burn for 20 minutes - shut it down & walk away while it cools.

If neither melts, run a full batch of cases for 30 minutes, then let them cool with the lid on. Check cases from the edges of the pot, the top, bottom & center of the batch. Squeeze the case mouths with your fingers.

If you think one from some part of the batch is harder or softer, test it against another case from the bottom. Lay both cases down on the edge of the bench so the case mouths are together. Squeeze them against each other. They should distort equally. If one crushes but the other stays round, you need to heat longer.

If you need to re-run a batch of cases longer it is not a big deal, they only get so soft. Once you work out a run time for the dutch oven & burner full of brass, you are set.

B.

bearcove

02-02-2011, 12:43 PM

I have a programable Even Heat Knife oven, for heat treating. If shipping was cheaper I could run batches. If anybody is in albuquerque nm area?

BT Sniper

02-02-2011, 01:45 PM

Interesting offer there, shipping doesn't have to be that much. USPS flat rate box for $10-$14 can hold 3-4K worth of brass. Might be worth it to some one here. Even covering the cost of shipping both ways is cheap but man, how long do you think it would take you to cook 3 thousand cases and what would you charge? I'm good at the moment but there are those out here I bet might be interested.

BT

bohica2xo

02-02-2011, 01:46 PM

That is a very nice offer Bearcove.

I usually put all my future jackets in with the 17-4 when I am running the age oven. It actually helps, since the brass mass helps keep the oven stable.

B.

bearcove

02-02-2011, 02:40 PM

I guess if I made a basket to fit I could do 3000 in one batch. Other than that its just soak time in oven, It will go up to 2200 deg F in about 10 minutes. 800 deg f is easy. I think the oven is about 10"h X 12"w X 19"deep inside.

I don't know about cost. I am interested in doing some swaging but don't have a source of brass. That has kept me from starting. I would concider doing it for brass in trade.

Then I'd have to start building a press and get my lathe set up so I can make dies.

BT Sniper

02-02-2011, 05:11 PM

Yep thats what I would do! Anneal people's brass in exchange for a portion of the brass when done. Thought about it a few times myself actually but never offered. It certainly isn't hard to obtain a lot of brass by severial means. There is a lot out there ending up in scrap yards that could be bullets instead.

I don't know about annealing large lots (500 or more) at same time? Would it make the outside well done and inside medium rare? I do know we can cook the zink right out of the copper/brass cases. I suppose the correct temp over the right amount of time to cook them all evenly would be possible?

BT

bearcove

02-02-2011, 06:40 PM

A 1000 would probably just be a layer an inch or so deep depending on size (pistol like 40s&w). 3000 22lr would not be much of a load. My oven has heat elements all the way around except the door. It would be back up to temp in a few minutes. If there is anyone interested I'd work out details with them. Once the oven is running it it would be easy to do smaller batches. You guys would know better than me. I've never annealed the whole case, just necks.

bohica2xo

02-02-2011, 09:59 PM

Bearcove:

The answer you seek is "bread pans".

When I am running 17-4 to the H900 condition, I fill the open space in the furnace with bread pans full of jacket material. A lot of 22 rimfire fits in a loaf pan. Since the steel parts age for a few hours, everything is at full anneal.

Look through the thrift shops or junk stores for steel pans that fit your needs / kiln. A 9x12x2 baking pan will do fine if it is steel. If you use a coated pan, you will be burning off whatever is on it - and that can be pretty nasty. I avoid the coated stuff, and use plain old tin plated junk - nobody want that stuff anymore anyway. Cast iron works well too.

If you run up to 900 ~ 1000 F, about 10 minutes per inch of depth is usually plenty of soak time.

B.

bearcove

02-02-2011, 10:44 PM

I have a few pans in the garage that are beyond kitchen duty that would fit good. 9x12 or so. I'm saving 22lr brass. Slow process shooting single shots. Don't go to range much, usually just go plinking on BLM it's closer. The guys running the range claim all the brass people leave behind.

BT Sniper

02-16-2011, 02:17 AM

Well I finally got around to taking pictures while I was annealing some brass.

I use a standard gas BBQ nad had good success with it as is using the same stainless steel collender as Jon pictured in previous post. I have sence lined the inside of the BBQ with fire bricks and have been able to increase the temp at the location of the brass even more. I anneal a good amount of brass at the same time. About enough to cover the collender with one layer. Then stir mid way threw. About 10 minutes tops is all that is needed to make sure all the brass glows. I did try a Crystal Light citric acid soak afterwards and found the results far better then pool PH reducer but teh drink mix does not maintain acidity very long I found. I will be getting som eof the high grade uncut citric acid to try out like Jon used.

So here we go! Annealing a lot of jackets at same time made easy!

Standard gas BBQ grill
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/annealing007.jpg

Inside of grill lined with fire brick kind of like an oven
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/annealing013.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/annealing010.jpg

Temp 700 degree + at the top of the lid, hotter at the location of the brass I have found because of fire brick oven effect
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/annealing009.jpg

and resulting annealed cases, must be about 100 or so per group. Notice shine lessens after each soak in the cristal light drink mix and this was with atleast a full cup of the mix and about 3 cups hot water.
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/annealing014.jpg

Annealing case can really be very easy and fast. Just make sure to always use safty gloves and glasses and watch out for live primers and for sure live rounds that may slip into vast suppies of brass.

Good shooting and Swage On!

BT

ReloaderFred

04-04-2011, 12:36 PM

Here are some photos I took of my annealing process using an electric kiln. If I stack the pans, I can do about 900 cases at a time, with the cores installed. If I just pour empty cases into a deeper pan, I can do a couple thousand at a time.

http://s1134.photobucket.com/albums/m606/ReloaderFred/Annealing%20Jackets/

Hope this helps.

Fred

BT Sniper

04-04-2011, 01:11 PM

Here you go Fred!

Great job, Sorry I never got around to posting your pics for you. Photobucket is pretty good for posting pics though. Hope you post more.

BT

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m606/ReloaderFred/Annealing%20Jackets/SwagingandMisc022.jpg

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m606/ReloaderFred/Annealing%20Jackets/SwagingandMisc021.jpg

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m606/ReloaderFred/Annealing%20Jackets/SwagingandMisc020.jpg

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m606/ReloaderFred/Annealing%20Jackets/SwagingandMisc019.jpg

ReloaderFred

04-04-2011, 02:00 PM

Thanks, BT. Kevin Rohrer showed me how to use photobucket. Now you've got to show me how to get them to directly post to the thread...........

I'm much better at making ammunition and shooting than I am at running computers....

Fred

BT Sniper

04-04-2011, 04:18 PM

Posting pics can be a bit of work. But once you have it in photobucket it is easy. When you place your mouse over the pic 4 option links come up. Copy the bottom option (actually can just left click it or right click and select copy) then paste here in your reply. All there is to it.

BT

Apache

04-04-2011, 04:58 PM

When you anneal with the cores, can't you also bond the cores at the same time?

Jim

ReloaderFred

04-04-2011, 05:08 PM

Thanks, BT. I'll have to give it a try.

Apache,

If I added some flux, it would probably bond the cores, but I'm just shooting paper, dirt clods and tin cans, so I haven't really felt the need to go the little extra step to bond them. From what BT says, it's only a matter of adding a drop of bonding solution (aka: flux) to each case before adding the cast bullet as a core. Maybe on one of my batches I'll give it a try and see if it makes a difference. I haven't done any experiments to see how well they hold together, either. At some point I most likely will, though.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Apache

04-04-2011, 05:45 PM

Thanks for the answer...I figured as much.

I will be doing some of my own in the very near future and it answers the question of bonding. Now to figure out how to do some bonded partition type bullets and dual thickness jackets.... :Bright idea:

MIBULLETS

04-04-2011, 06:57 PM

The cases also cut much better in their harder form. When they are annealed they get kind of gummy.

ReloaderFred

04-04-2011, 07:24 PM

I don't trim any of my cases. I think if I had to do that, I probably wouldn't make near as many bullets. The large hollowpoint punch on my .44 bullets just rolls the excess down into the hollowpoint cavity. Works like a charm and I don't have to spend hours trimming, or cutting, cases.

The .41 caliber and .357 caliber bullets that I make from 9x19 and .380 ACP, respectively, don't require trimming, as there is enough core to fill out the jacket and leave a soft lead nose.

Hope this helps.

Fred

b2riesel

04-07-2011, 10:12 AM

I bought some 9mm brass at $20/k...I've been busy annealing about 10k of this stuff...it is packaged in lots of 1k. I ran into a bag that had a LOT of FTF primers...when putting them in an already hot kiln they explode on contact. Now I have to add hearing protection to my list of PPE along with already wearing safety googles, leather gloves, and thick clothing of natural fibers. Scared the winnie the pooh right out of me bent over the kiln and dropping some brass in.

dfreeman

04-07-2011, 10:34 AM

Wow! Fred, where did you get all of those linotype ingots/pigs that I saw laying by your kiln?

ReloaderFred

04-07-2011, 11:53 AM

b2riesel,

Yep, live primers and extreme heat make for some fireworks. Years ago, when my kids were little, they were going to help me by sweeping up some lead splatters off the floor of my shop after casting bullets. Seems there was a live primer mixed in and when we moved from that house there was still a little lead splatter on the ceiling of the garage.......

dfreeman,

Those are bullet alloy ingots. I've got an old linotype ingot mold and when smelting lead that's one of the ingots I use, along with several 1 pound molds and a 4 pound diving weight mold. What you saw in the photo was only about 1/4 of my lead stash. I'm trying to negotiate for another ton in ingots right now, but the guy seems to think he can get more at a scrap yard. We'll see how it turns out.

There's a Magma Master Caster right behind the kiln and it takes a lot of alloy to keep it running. I'm afraid that lead is going to be hard to get in the fairly near future, so any I locate is fair game. I even pick up spent bullets on the range when changing targets, and especially after our Cowboy Action Matches.

Fred

b2riesel

04-07-2011, 12:37 PM

Fred,

When I'm expanding the brass right before seating the lead...sometimes I blow out a primer due to the airtight seal of the mandrel inside the brass...when you anneal the brass with the lead inside...in the kiln...do you have problems with lead leaking out the bottom?...or do you carefully weed out the ones with no primers and do them in a separate process?

ReloaderFred

04-07-2011, 01:53 PM

b2riesel,

When I anneal with the cores in place, the bases are sitting on the stainless steel pan. If there were any cases without primers, the lead would probably only go as far as the pan.

I do check to make sure there are primers in all the brass that I place cores in prior to annealing, though. It just makes it easier and the primer is part of the weight of the finished bullets. With a primer in place, there is no leakage at all. I've even been known to reseat a spent primer in a case where the primer came out during annealing without a core in place.

If annealing with cores, and no primers, the cases would have to be setting on a flat surface without holes to stop any molten lead from running out the bottom. I haven't tried it that way, but I recall someone else posting pictures of their process and that's what they did.

When the cores are melted when annealing, the surface doesn't come out flat on the cores, so I find that I still need to seat the cores to make them uniform. This helps a lot when I use BT's notching die and keeps from having wrinkled jackets in the nose of the finished bullet. Before I started seating the cores, I was getting really ugly bullets, but the seating solved that problem.

Hope this helps.

Fred

a.squibload

04-10-2011, 02:46 AM

Probably should not anneal cases with a torch in the sunlight,
hard to see when they turn red.
Propane does get hot enough to melt brass...

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_69sguoFlVzY/TZ0vYcfBAtI/AAAAAAAAAII/Oyt8RtT9Rs4/melted9mmbrass.JPG

ReloaderFred

04-10-2011, 11:12 AM

A few more minutes and you could have cast belt buckles!

Fred

a.squibload

04-10-2011, 12:59 PM

Dangit, why did you have to suggest that?

My wife makes jewelry, I'm sure she could help me design a buckle mold
to make use of my growing pile of scrap brass.

Maybe something like the confederate "CS" buckle, only it would have "CB" on it?

Then I'll start to like doing it and have to buy brass, scrounge the yard sales &
thrift stores, etc....

Great, another hobby.

ReloaderFred

04-10-2011, 02:24 PM

Sorry.

Back in the early 1970's, my first duty station with the Sheriff's Office was Boron, CA., outside the north gate of Edwards AFB. The Air Force had a big investigation as to why there wasn't much brass coming off their rifle and pistol ranges. It seems the personnel working the ranges had a small business on the side making and selling brass belt buckles.............

Now everytime I see melted brass, it makes me think about those guys, since I'd met most of them. I don't know what the final outcome was, but I understand they were making some pretty good belt buckles, from pure brass.

Fred

a.squibload

04-11-2011, 03:54 AM

No problem, just messin' with ya.

Maybe those guys got more experience producing metal items - license plates?:!:

bandmiller2

07-05-2011, 09:10 PM

When I anneal 22 rf cases to use for jackets I use my outside wood furnace.I take a 2" pipe nipple and two caps,drill a couple of holes in one of the caps and screw them on loose.Fill with cases put them in the furnace and forget for a few hours,dead soft jackets. Frank C.

thehouseproduct

07-06-2011, 06:05 PM

So my dad makes custom knives and has a furnace that clears 2100F. It has a rather sophisticated temperature control. If I want him to anneal these for me, what are ideal temps and dwell times?

ReloaderFred

07-06-2011, 06:52 PM

I run my kiln up to 1,250 degrees with the brass, with cores installed, in the kiln. I turn it off and let it set unattended overnight. About 12 hours later it's still over 250 degrees inside the kiln when I open the door. The brass is annealed and the cores are melted inside them.

There are some pictures in Post #24.

Hope this helps.

Fred

BT Sniper

07-08-2011, 12:32 AM

IMOP once the entire brass case glows you are good and any longer is over kill. However long that takes via torch, BBQ, or Kiln or oven and you should be good to go!

BT

DukeInFlorida

07-10-2011, 04:38 PM

Brian, my friend BadLuther (whom you have sold some swaging dies to) left his entire annealing system here with me. It's a copy of your system, with the bbq grill, white bricks, same basket, etc............ I have a great system now for annealing. Thanks for making him do it!

BT Sniper

07-10-2011, 06:56 PM

Sure thing :)

Very nice of him.

BT

kombayotch

07-12-2011, 10:59 AM

How about electrical resistance based annealing?

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/kombayotch/Firearms%20Stuff/Experimental/th_P1050770.jpg (http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/kombayotch/Firearms%20Stuff/Experimental/?action=view&current=P1050770.mp4)

It's a transformer that I re-wound for use in a spot welder. I'm controlling it with a switch in the video, but it can be controlled precisely with a timer or an IR sensor could be used to shut it off when the case reaches a specific temperature.

kombayotch

07-12-2011, 11:07 AM

FYI: clicking on the image takes you to a video...

BT Sniper

07-12-2011, 12:27 PM

Awesome! Looks great for annealing the necks. You think you can get an entire 40 S&W case to glow?

Is this the method you use for you rifle brass? How have teh results been? It certainly looks great.

Good work!

BT

kombayotch

07-12-2011, 01:10 PM

No, I anneal my necks this way:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1331195#post1331195

I could make a similar jig for doing bullet jackets...

I played with ressitance for annealing the necks, but the problem is that the highest resistance area will heat first. So, if you don't have perfect contact with the case neck, it over-anneals certain points. I don't think it's as big of an issue when you're annealing bullet jackets though...

It could do the entire case if you put the contact points at the top and bottom of the case. The trick is to just make sure that the case is the highest resistance element in the system. You definitely don't want it to have a lower resistance than you wires, which is why you need to use heavy gauge ones.

a.squibload

07-13-2011, 03:28 AM

That's some good stuff kombayotch!

For jackets I'm thinking flat copper plates on a clamp, parallel to each other,
clamp case with mouth and base on the plates, apply voltage.
(Copper less resistance than brass?)
When using a propane torch the heat spreads through the whole case,
I imagine once any part starts glowing you could shut off the current.

Just make sure the primers are dead!

kombayotch

07-13-2011, 08:41 AM

Here is a list of conductivity and resistivity values for copper and it's alloys:
http://www.ndt-ed.org/GeneralResources/MaterialProperties/ET/Conductivity_Copper.pdf

Yes, it is lower for copper. Cross-sectional area also plays a role in relative resistivity...

Just need to find a good strong material that isn't electrically conductive and is able to take the heat to make the rest of the structure out of. Of course, if your plates are large enough, they won't heat up as much. I've used wood isolator elements in spot welders with pretty good success.

It's very fast; I didn't apply power till just after the 8 second mark in the video. You can hear the transformer hum when it comes on.

bohica2xo

07-13-2011, 03:43 PM

Try a couple of graphite electrodes that conform to the case for that neck anneal.

Bore a neck sized hole in a piece of graphite & cut it apart. Should be able to get good heating around the neck that way.

For those of you considering this for jacket annealing, the low resistance part of the case is the head. You should make contact on the outside of the case at the head, and at the inside of the case head with your other electrode.

If the heating current passes through the case head, the thinner walls will heat by conduction.

Trying to pass the current from the thin case mouth all the way to the head will result in overheating the thin case mouth area long before the head gets hot enough for a full anneal.

B.

cgtreml

10-29-2011, 08:18 AM

Bwana

10-29-2011, 09:45 AM

The short answer is that you will not be able to get the brass hot enough in your oven. I anneal my Hybrid jackets by putting 25 to 35, depending upon size, on the small burners on my stove top and covering with a sauce pan used for that purpose only. Turn to high for seven minutes and turn off and let sit for three minutes then do the other burner and remove the annealed cases and put more on that burner and when the other burner has gone through its cycle, repeat.

randmplumbingllc

11-04-2011, 11:03 PM

Ok here are a couple of questions. I was going to try to anneal 9mm cases in a self cleaning oven. How bad is it going to smell? I need to keep peace in the family. Can I fill a cast iron dutch oven with brass and do a good job on all of them? Is the Dutch Oven going to be food safe or retired to the gun room? Should I use a shallow pan instead?

You guys can save me a lot of experimenting
Thanks

If your oven is gas, like mine, it will do just fine. Most gas ovens "self-clean" at about 900 degrees.

650 will anneal brass, so your oven should work. I would just lay them on the bottom of the oven , loose, and try not to stack them. The idea is that the oven won't have to heat the dutch oven and then the brass.

If you can crush the brass mouth easily, after it cools....it is annealed enough to swage.

There is no smell or fumes to worry about.

cgtreml

11-07-2011, 04:03 PM

If your oven is gas, like mine, it will do just fine. Most gas ovens "self-clean" at about 900 degrees.

650 will anneal brass, so your oven should work. I would just lay them on the bottom of the oven , loose, and try not to stack them. The idea is that the oven won't have to heat the dutch oven and then the brass.

If you can crush the brass mouth easily, after it cools....it is annealed enough to swage.

There is no smell or fumes to worry about.

Thanks. We are supposed to get a hard frost this week so I will give it a try. First try will be with a couple of hundred 9mms. Will post the results. One way or another we will all learn something. By the way ours is electric. Worst that can happen is the oven is clean for thanksgiving.

rasto

12-11-2011, 02:57 PM

The best inexpensive and fast way to do it is an ordinary fireplace or an old unused grill just in my case.
I managed to anneal 10kg (16 000 pcs approx) in 3 hours period.
I was lucky just 4 of them fired :bigsmyl2:

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/188/imag0330hx.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/imag0330hx.jpg/)

MightyThor

12-16-2011, 01:41 PM

For annealing bulk, all of the info here is great, This comment is for the beginner who wants the quick way to get practice brass for his dies. I pound several finish nails a little way into a scrap board, put the brass upside down on the finish nails and heat each piece with a propane torch till glowing and then quench so I can use em right away. Usually do 10 at a time and easy to dump by turning the board over a bucket of water. The color is not uniform but the brass is fully annealed and I can shine stuff up after the bullet is complete.

DukeInFlorida

12-17-2011, 04:55 PM

Caution:

I put a bunch of .40 S&W brass in a steel bread pan, and placed it on red glowing coals in my wood stove. I came back a half hour later, expecting to see annealed brass. I was horrified to see that the brass had melted into a glob.

Guess some air got in under the coals.

Sasquatch-1

01-16-2012, 09:06 PM

Has anyone tried a portable induction hot plate? You know the type where something metal has to be sitting on it to heat up. You could probably arange a fair amount on one.

bohica2xo

01-22-2012, 01:11 PM

The induction heaters available to the consumer will not heat brass. So the induction hot plate will not work for this.

B.

gvanzeggelaar

01-22-2012, 03:18 PM

Would an empty casting pot work. Put a layer of brass sitting directly on the bottom and turn it on for an hour?

alfloyd

01-22-2012, 06:32 PM

I use the Lee 20 lb lead dipper pot to anneal my brass for making slugs. I fill it all the way up, put a double layer of alumium foil on top, turn it to 8 on the dial and wait for 1 hour. I have a dial temp gage into the center of the pot and it shows over 850 degrees F. The 22 cases I do it it comes out great/soft.

Lafaun

lukewmtdew

03-29-2012, 12:25 AM

a.squibload

03-29-2012, 01:41 AM

What do firebricks do exactly?

Insulate against heat.

lukewmtdew

03-29-2012, 09:53 AM

Does that mean it traps heat and keeps it contained in a smaller area?

Lizard333

03-29-2012, 02:12 PM

Will a heater/cooker (sunflower propane heater) mounted in the bottom of a weber charcoal grill be hot enough to anneal brass? The cage on the top gets RED hot and I've already melted lead on the top of this and spilled some in there so this is useless for me to use in an icehouse *bangs head against wall*

I found a free weber on Craigslist and my leaded up heater cooker maybe throw some firebricks in there somewhere

What do firebricks do exactly?

Your setup should work just fine without the bricks. I set my brass in a stainless steel colinder and place it over a turker fryer burner. I will sit there and toss the brass to ensure it gets even "cooked" if you will. When you have discolored your brass from the heat you are pretty much done. To check, just take a piece and try to pinch it in your fingers. if it is easy to pinch, your good.

a.squibload

05-24-2012, 03:25 AM

I can't help but take pics all the time now.

That glowing case got a little too hot, was waiting for the "shutter" to click.
This method is easy, with minimal equipment. Best done in a shadow or a
semi-lit area so you can see when the case head just starts to glow (not cherry red).
The rest of the case will get soaked with heat.
Goes pretty quick except for setting all the cases on their mouths.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-G1UxrlnkR7k/T73LR3uSGKI/AAAAAAAAAdc/r4qM0JeEdHA/s640/annealing%2520brass.jpg

Sasquatch-1

05-24-2012, 07:51 AM

BT Sniper

05-24-2012, 12:44 PM

Try taking the styrofoam organizer from a box of large caliber rounds and placing the cases in it and flipping them onto your surface. All lined up nice and pretty waiting to be fried.

I was just going to say the same thing! Nice work guys.

BT

a.squibload

05-27-2012, 05:28 AM

Dang! That's just what I do for pics of loaded rounds,
use an ammo box and a book or metal sheet on top,
flip it all and remove ammo box.
So why couldn't I apply that technique to empty brass?
Maybe I like tedious tasks.
Or one of my transistors is fried...

Fla9-40

07-22-2012, 11:41 AM

Quick question: annealing 9mm

My GAS oven has the self cleaning cycle with the options of 2hr, 3hr and 4hr IIRC.
Would you think shutting it down after 1hr would be sufficient for annealing the 9mm brass?

I have down a 11x17 cookie sheet full of 22lr for 2hrs and they come out soft so that you can crush the mouth between your fingers with little effort

Thanks!

Reload3006

07-22-2012, 01:55 PM

Sasquatch-1

07-23-2012, 07:43 AM

when I first started out I used to self cleaning oven method. I was not happy with the result as most came out annealed but not all. I use a cast iron pan on a turkey fryer watch my color when the pan is glowing red i turn it off or dump them in water.

So, you just wait for the pan to glow and not the brass? Do you have to wait for the entire pan to glow or just when a part of it starts?

I have been keeping my eyes open for a reasonably priced used kiln but haven't found one yet. This would have other uses along with annealing.

Reload3006

07-23-2012, 07:45 AM

no the brass. IF the cast iron is glowing red your going to have brass soup

Sasquatch-1

07-23-2012, 08:00 AM

no the brass. IF the cast iron is glowing red your going to have brass soup

OK, then you need to edit #76. You said pan. Could have some people complaining they had to make a trip to the recycling yard. :) :oops:

Fla9-40

07-23-2012, 07:00 PM

DukeInFlorida

07-27-2012, 07:52 AM

It's not time, it's temperature. You really need a temperature that's higher than most ovens will get to.

MIBULLETS

07-27-2012, 01:25 PM

I did the 2hr deal in my gas oven cleaning cycle and I do not think it cooked long enough. I had some I could with a little effort crush the mouth but others I could not unless I did it against the loading bench. There were 200 on the cookie sheet and none were touching the others.
Not at all like the 22lr I did this way, every one of them were soft!

Sounds like it might work if you can get the brass in the right spot in your oven. I'm guessing the ones that were annealed were closer to the flame.

Whistler

07-28-2012, 03:07 AM

DukeInFlorida

07-28-2012, 08:11 AM

Not sure either, but you certainly altered the Space/Time Continuum!

rasto

07-29-2012, 02:04 PM

Heated plate is emitting IR light which is invisible for our naked eye but your probably cheaper camera (without sufficient chip filter) amplified it ;-)

MIBULLETS

07-29-2012, 02:40 PM

It definately looks cool!

plus1hdcp

07-29-2012, 04:14 PM

It definately looks cool!

This!

BT Sniper

07-30-2012, 08:06 PM

Longwood

07-30-2012, 09:49 PM

Source for those looking for bulk citric acid

http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=citric

Lemi shine also works well.

Thought I would post it here so I can find it again too :)

GOod shooting

BT

The first stuff I found was Walmart lemonade mix.
Probably about half sugar substitute, but it seemed to work OK.

ratboy

07-30-2012, 10:17 PM

i got mine in the canning section at the supermarket.

Fla9-40

07-31-2012, 05:12 AM

Source for those looking for bulk citric acid

http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=citric

Lemi shine also works well.

Thought I would post it here so I can find it again too :)

GOod shooting

BT

I use the Lemi shine until I found the Citric Acid, but these prices are WAY better then I can get here locally from the Food Co-op market!

Thanks BT for the link!

Sasquatch-1

07-31-2012, 07:45 AM

i got mine in the canning section at the supermarket.

+1 for the canning section.

BT Sniper

07-31-2012, 08:03 PM

a.squibload

08-04-2012, 02:16 AM

This has worked pretty well for me:

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/5359/20120726194553.jpg

It is a regular heat plate stove, not induction based.
Don't know why the camera made the plate look purple.

You can use your digital camera or cell phone camera
to check your remote control. Look at the end of the
remote through the camera and push a button, it will
translate the remote's infrared signal to visible light.

ncbearman

08-05-2012, 02:55 PM

I have a question. I looked through the threads first, but may have missed it. Anyway, why do we use a citric acid bath? Is it part of the annealing process or just to clean up the brass after? If it is just to clean can I wait til they cool and then SS tumble? Thanks guys. Thaks to BT I'm a .40 to .45 guy.

Russ

a.squibload

08-05-2012, 03:18 PM

ratboy

08-05-2012, 09:15 PM

I found the supper market citric acid to be way to expensive unless I wasn't looking at the same stuff. The local brewing supply store was just as bad. I found the on line price to be much better and it works good. I didn't notice any difference between it and the lemi shine.

Good shooting

BT

you are correct, it is more expensive. i happened to be there and i was convenient. in the future i will buy elsewhere.
i was wandering around and saw it and figured what the heck.

Sasquatch-1

08-06-2012, 06:15 AM

It's just to clean the brass. After a hot citric soak for
10 or 15 min. I rinse with plain water, dry, then tumble.
SS is more agressive I think, probably wouldn't need the
citric, but it is cheap & easy. I've been using cheap
uncooked rice for tumbling media, gets 'em clean but
not as shiny as walnut or other stuff. Experiment!

I have a product I have had for a LOOOOOONNNNGGGG time. It was callled "Case Brite or Brite Case" don't recall exactly. I put a couple of caps in with my tumble media when needed. Cases come out bright and shiney. (I use Lizard Litter desert mix.) It was made for bullet cases so I don't believe it has any of the amonia in it.

I did a search and the only thing that came up was Rooster Brite, which also had no amonia. Here is a link if you want to try it:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partdetail.aspx/1237/1/case-bright

BT Sniper

08-07-2012, 01:27 AM

I have wondered about the rouster bright products, has anyone used them?

BT

Sasquatch-1

08-07-2012, 07:48 AM

I have wondered about the rouster bright products, has anyone used them?

BT

I have not used them but the ad stated NO AMMONIA.

DukeInFlorida

08-07-2012, 10:48 AM

It's ROOSTER Bright. As in cockadoodle doo

Information is on this page:
http://www.roosterlabs.com/products.html

Here's the secret:
Mild citrus fragrance.

Ummmmmmmmmmm. wonder what that is.......... hahaha

spkltrt

12-31-2012, 07:46 PM

question to the annealing experts. i am new to the swaging process and using soft copper tubing (got some really nice looking 125gr 357's) but the base have a tiny stress crack on the corner. When you anneal the copper jacket at first: does it last the entire process of expanding the copper, rounding the end and flattenig the base?

Reload3006

12-31-2012, 08:43 PM

Normally yes but not always. Usually stress cracks at the base is caused by uneven cuts and one side of your round over punch smashing the bottom of your jacket. That can be relieved by annealing but not always. This is especially true of coiled copper tubing as its not as good an alloy as the rigid tubing as well.

BT Sniper

12-31-2012, 09:06 PM

I haven't bothered to try annealing the soft copper tubing. I found it to allready be softer then anything else I use to make bullets from. I'm not sure annealing the copper tubing is the problem??

BT

spkltrt

12-31-2012, 10:02 PM

i found the culprit: seems the copper tubing is not seemless and at the corner of the base shows up as a hairline crack

spkltrt

12-31-2012, 10:12 PM

57208

fredj338

01-02-2013, 04:49 PM

MIBULLETS

01-02-2013, 09:55 PM

As far as the tubing goes I end round first then anneal before reducing and swaging. If you have to reduce a few times, it could be worth annealing again.

BT Sniper

01-07-2013, 01:42 AM

OK! I had been saying it for a while but today I finally tried it and I must say it worked pretty darn good. Using the Lee #20 lead pot to anneal brass in. I used a new pot that can be found and keep it sepperate from any melted lead.

It is quick! faster then anythign else I have tried yet and cheap! Only takes elc. I let them soak for maybe 20 minutes and WOW! that was too much! Things where glowing! Probably only needed 5-10 minutes max or possibly less. I was able to anneal probably 4-500 24 cal jackets at one time. Quick, perfect and awesome!

Give it a try if you haven't all ready, just make sure you use a clean pot.

Good shooting

Brian

supe47

01-07-2013, 02:56 AM

Brian- Bought one for just that. What setting did you use? Built a PID a while back, will probably use that.
Supe

BT Sniper

01-07-2013, 06:02 PM

More infor to come! Just want to report back that I had %100 sucess with the brass I annealed in the Lee Lead Pot. I believe it will be my primary means to anneal all my riffle caliber brass jackets.

Got to be sure to clean the brass after annealing! Good way to start the claening process is take the brass stratight from the "Lee Oven" and poor them directly into a bucket of hot citic acid water bath.

I'll get back with my thoughts and future use of the Lee Oven :)

BT

featherhead

03-03-2013, 09:55 AM

Just came up out of the shop. Finished derimming 22lr jackets and have begun the annealing process. Using an evenheat oven, raising temp to 1250 F for a 1 minute hold. Cases can be crushed with minimal finger pressure. The temps listined at the beginning of this post are holding true.

Lizard333

03-03-2013, 10:36 AM

What model of oven are you using? This seems like the best way to go. The price isn't cheap, but it seems the most efficient way.

DukeInFlorida

03-04-2013, 06:35 PM

I'm with Brian on the Lee 20 pound pot for the annealing.

Compared with the commercial annealers, the Lee is a financially viable way to go. It will run hundreds of .22 LR brass de-rimmed pieces in a single 12 minute batch (goes faster than my ability to assemble into bullets), and is easy to just pick it up, and dump directly into hot water/Lemishine/Cictric Acid bath for cleaning. The lower 1/3 of the pot gets to annealing temperature, so keep the fill to about 1/3 full. That's a lot of brass.

I also tried some 9mm brass, that went fast. It also went fast for the 5.7X28FN brass I annealed in it, 15 minute cycle time.

I'm very happy with this an an annealing vessel.

Del-Ray

03-26-2013, 06:52 PM

I'm thinking of getting a used knife blade annealer. Looks like I should be able to do several hundred at once. I just need 400 bucks now....

And here I thought I was going to buy another ivory back scratcher.

DukeInFlorida

03-29-2013, 06:39 AM

$400??? Are you nuts????

Get a BRAND new Lee 20 pound dipper pot for UNDER $100, and do even more, per batch, than you'd ever do with the used knife blade annealer.
The Lee pot version is even designed for the exact perfect temperature range!!!!
http://www.woodenluremaking.com/LeeMagnumMelter110V.jpg

I'm thinking of getting a used knife blade annealer. Looks like I should be able to do several hundred at once. I just need 400 bucks now....

And here I thought I was going to buy another ivory back scratcher.

Lizard333

03-29-2013, 11:36 AM

Or do it for 20$. Buy a cast iron skillet with a lid. Fill it full of brass you want to anneal or core bond, and place over a burner on high for fifteen minutes. I am able to do 250-300 40's with bonding the lead in fifteen minutes. I can do more if I'm annealing. Your limited to real estate with the lee pot, and you can only fill it a third of the way full.

Grumpa taught that to me a few weeks ago and works like a charm. You can even add your thermostat in the top to confirm you have reached 800+ degrees.

MrWolf

04-06-2013, 08:08 PM

New here so if someone else mentioned it I did not see it. When I need to dry cases after sonic cleaning I use a food dehydrator that was useless for food but at about 100 degrees for an hour I can dry about 500 9mm brass. Works great, but I wouldn't try food again in it ;)

USMCamp0811

04-08-2013, 09:09 PM

Is that a gas or electric stovetop you are using? Just curious as I am planning my entry into the swagging realm and I'm trying to figure out how I will anneal brass in my apartment. I've only got a small Q gas grill and an old electric stove that is not self-cleaning. The 4# Lee pot sounds like a good possibility but hey a cast iron pot sounds even better, if feasible.

Or do it for 20$. Buy a cast iron skillet with a lid. Fill it full of brass you want to anneal or core bond, and place over a burner on high for fifteen minutes. I am able to do 250-300 40's with bonding the lead in fifteen minutes. I can do more if I'm annealing. Your limited to real estate with the lee pot, and you can only fill it a third of the way full.

Grumpa taught that to me a few weeks ago and works like a charm. You can even add your thermostat in the top to confirm you have reached 800+ degrees.

Lizard333

04-08-2013, 11:05 PM

I'm using a propane turkey fryer for the heat. 15 minutes on high and the pot is above 800. Good or me.

Sasquatch-1

04-09-2013, 08:36 AM

I'm using a propane turkey fryer for the heat. 15 minutes on high and the pot is above 800. Good or me.

I have been looking for an alternative to heating each case individually with a propane torch. Do the cases begin to glow in the pan and does the pan start to show any color from the heat? This may be the answer I have been looking for.

Lizard333

04-09-2013, 09:04 AM

The pan doesn't glow, but to get a feel for now long it would take with your setup, fill it full of 22LR jackets that need to be annealed. After 15 minutes take one out, drop it in water to quench it, then see if you can pinch it in your fingers. If you can do this, then you are good to go.

When I bond my core and anneal at the same time, I give the pot a few extra minutes as your now heating the extra lead as well. I fill the whole bottom with one even layer. In my Dutch oven, which isn't that big, I can get a couple hundred 9mm cases and about 150 40's.

The best way would be like Grumpa does it, is to get a skillet with a lid. More surface area, less height to heat.

Sunday I did over 700 core bonded 9mm cases in about an hour and a half. Just make to let the lead cool enough before dumping the brass on the concrete. You only make that mistake once......

Sasquatch-1

04-09-2013, 10:15 AM

I already have an 8 or 9 inch skillet. Don't have a lid but can use a cookie sheet with a weight on it. I am looking to do the 40's so I will have to see how it works after I get a few trimmed up.

30yrcaster

04-09-2013, 11:36 AM

I'm using a propane turkey fryer for the heat. 15 minutes on high and the pot is above 800. Good or me.
This is all incredible. When I started in the 80's Corbin told me to use a toaster oven on broil. I had to place all the shells on the tray not touching each other rim down and broil for 20 min. Took forever to align them. Any laying down or touching each other didn't get annealed. Didn't have a self cleaning oven at the time.

As for the cast iron skillet. Would a gas grill work? Would I just fill the skillet with as many shells as it will hold, put the lid on and close the grill for 15 min? My grill's temp gauge only reads low, med & high.

Thanks

1_Ogre

05-16-2013, 09:09 AM

Still waiting for info on the Lyman 45 gas check seater. Do you still have it in the works?
Thanks for your time:
Lead47/s3

monmouth

08-07-2013, 09:47 AM

Annealing pots and citric acid tag.

-Mischief

09-06-2013, 09:06 AM

A note on annealing 22lr jackets. I have an old 4# Lee pot I got in a garage sale, never figured out what to do with it. It makes a perfect kiln for doing 100+ jackets @ a time. DUmp them in, crank it to #6, cover w/ heavy tin foil or a ceramic tile & stir once after 5m. Let them go another 5 & turn it off. They come out quite soft & ready for ss pin cleaning & when BT gets me the rest of the dies, I'll be makin bullets.Speaking of SS pin tumbling...I tried 2 different methods...1 was with ss pins in water, some dawn and a touch of lemon bright powder. The second was in the "vibrator" with water, a little dawn and a touch of lemon bright. The pins did a fabulous job! Not really on the outside but definitely on the inside! I put a q-tip in 5 or 6 and that was it. Nothing was coming out...no dirt, no grime, nadda! The other way cleaned them up ok but the inside was still gunky and needed to be cleaned. QUESTION: other than a magnet, is there a better, faster method of getting ALL of the pins out of the brass?

hotbrew

09-06-2013, 02:03 PM

Mischief,

Just use a rotary case media separator and run it with just enough water to cover the bottom of the cases. The pins will float off as you spin and settle at the bottom of the separator.

hotbrew

-Mischief

09-06-2013, 02:51 PM

rotary separator? I have a "dry" rotary separator that mounts to the top of a 5 gallon bucket. The 22 hulls fall through the cracks as it's apparently meant for 380's and larger. Do you have a pic of what you're talking about? Or a link?
Mischief,

Just use a rotary case media separator and run it with just enough water to cover the bottom of the cases. The pins will float off as you spin and settle at the bottom of the separator.

hotbrew

supe47

09-06-2013, 05:27 PM

Take a couple 22LR cases to the 99cent store and find a colander the cases won't fall through. I found slots instead of holes work best. Swirl or stir UNDER water and the pins will slide right out of the cases. Cheap and works.

Sasquatch-1

09-07-2013, 07:13 AM

Just a suggestion, A kids sand sifter from one of the dollar stores works real well. I have one that fits into the opening of my vibe tumbler with a lip that rest on the edge.

hotbrew

09-07-2013, 07:50 AM

rotary separator? I have a "dry" rotary separator that mounts to the top of a 5 gallon bucket. The 22 hulls fall through the cracks as it's apparently meant for 380's and larger. Do you have a pic of what you're talking about? Or a link?

Mischief,

Yes a normal dry separator will work if it will hold water. I use the RCBS separator and put in enough water so that the cases and pins are partially submerged as they turn. This floats the pins off and lets them settle to the bottom of the separator. Without the water the pins seem to stick to the damp cases. For use with 22 hulls I use a nylon mesh bag that is normally used in the washing machine for delicate items IIRC that keeps the smaller hulls in place.

hotbrew

Sitzme

09-11-2013, 08:21 PM

I found a "salad spinner" that works. The inner strainer has slots the right size and the outer container holds water. $7 at the grocery store. There seem to be a number of options and you might find different things available when you go to the store. Put a .22 shell in your pocket and start cruzing!

nhrifle

09-16-2013, 12:02 PM

It's been mentioned a few times to use an empty lead pot for annealing and since I have quite a few derimmed cases prepped, I decided to try it. I have an old Lee 10 lb bottom pour pot and removed the valve rod and its actuator and cleaned out the pot. Dropped in a handful of cases (about 1/3 full), set the pot to high and covered with aluminum foil. I checked after a few minutes and the bottom of the pot was beginning to glow. I gave the cases a stir and recovered the pot. A couple minutes later and the cases were all glowing. I dumped them onto a cookie sheet to cool, and when they were safe to touch I checked for softness. I was able to easily squish a case with finger pressure, so this method appears to work well and quickly. My question is, do I risk actually melting the cases if I leave them in there too long? My apologies if this has been answered already but I couldn't find it.

Cane_man

09-16-2013, 03:02 PM

this is clever, anyone make something like this?

Well I asked around about how to anneal and from what I read I thought I did not have anything to do it with handy. I was thinking a fire would be to much and end up with melted brass. Super post wish I sent it sooner. All that being said this is what I came up with I am still fine tuning it but it takes about 20 sec to turn one red.
http://http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg31/Ricky1965/RELOADING/007.jpg
I think I will retire it and go with the SS basket and a fire looks alot easier and faster.

-Mischief

10-24-2013, 04:57 PM

I read the majority of the 135 posts and never saw the answer to a question I have so if it's in there....sorry.
As for derimming 22LR brass....anneal before derimming or after?

R.Ph. 380

10-24-2013, 10:25 PM

I read the majority of the 135 posts and never saw the answer to a question I have so if it's in there....sorry.
As for derimming 22LR brass....anneal before derimming or after?

After

Bill

Utah Shooter

10-24-2013, 10:42 PM

After!

jimbull34

11-05-2013, 11:56 AM

Heres what I use for cleaning brass with out tumbling:
1 cup vinegar
juice from one lemon this is the citric acid
1 tablespoon sea salt
1 quart water
This will work in about an hour, if not shiny enough, leave it in longer, works very well!

jimbull34

11-05-2013, 11:58 AM

I forgot, add a tablespoon on dawn soap also...

jimbull34

11-05-2013, 11:59 AM

Heres what I use for cleaning brass with out tumbling:
1 cup vinegar
juice from one lemon this is the citric acid
1 tablespoon sea salt
1 quart water
1 tablespoon dawn
This will work in about an hour, if not shiny enough, leave it in longer, works very well!

mosby's men

11-10-2013, 05:18 PM

are you guys just pouring the cases in a lead melting pot or are you stacking them one row on top of another. ?

what are you using to bond cores to cases and where can i buy it
tia
MM

-Mischief

11-11-2013, 10:38 AM

Lizard333

11-11-2013, 11:28 AM

When just annealing jackets, I just dump and cover. When bonding cores, I use nothing but pure lead and the brass. I stack them upright in my Dutch oven and put the spurs to it. 15 minutes over a turkey fryer burner and the brass is bonded. I make sure there is a blueish color on too of the lead. No flux needed.

newcastter

11-14-2013, 07:57 PM

I haven't tried bonding them yet but to answer your first question...I line my pot (while cold) with foil, then I fill it approximately 1/2 full after it's reached 700 or so. (just drop them in) You can have a thermometer in and it works great! After putting the hulls in, I set the temp to 900 or so. Check periodically for major discoloration and a slight glow.
I have been wondering if there was a way to use my existing LEE pot by using maybe a tin can or something. So what your saying is you just line your pot with foil and that works? It doesnt permanently attatch the foil to the pot? If so that would be great I would not have to order a second pot just for annealing.

-Mischief

11-14-2013, 08:12 PM

Correct! I have had the thermometer over 1000*F and no issues. It works great. I make sure to form as much of the foil as I can while the pot is still cold...tough working on a hot pot.

newcastter

11-14-2013, 09:15 PM

Correct! I have had the thermometer over 1000*F and no issues. It works great. I make sure to form as much of the foil as I can while the pot is still cold...tough working on a hot pot.
Awesome. Now I would be using Heavy Duty foil just to be safe but what are you using? Reason I ask is my experience has been that if you have an oven with a hidden bake element and you line it with foil the foil will adhere to the bottom of the oven and you will never get it off. So I just figured the same with the lead pot.

-Mischief

11-15-2013, 09:35 AM

My wifes foil out of the drawer.

spitstickler

01-09-2014, 11:50 AM

Lizard333

01-10-2014, 09:36 AM

Nope. I just put them in the pot and let them go. It's a pretty good oven with very good heat distribution.

spitstickler

01-13-2014, 10:51 AM

I don't have a big cast iron oven, so I tried the Lee 20# Pot annealing method this weekend.

• Pot turned all the way up (no thermometer, so no idea on how hot things were)
• About 1/3 full - (300-ish cases)
• Covered with heavy tin foil pan formed around the top of the pot (like the one you bake a cake in and take somewhere where you don't want to deal with dirty dishes)
• 6 min - stir with tent stake - Cover and then 6 more min.
• Dump jackets in water w/ lemishine

Results seemed good. I could crush the end of the case almost completely flat between my finger and thumb, so I did several thousand.

Something I read (or maybe dreamed about last night) made me think it should be REALLY easy to crush the mouth shut. So, I took a propane torch and cooked a few cases manually this morning. These were softer than what I was doing in the LEE pot.

My question is, do these jackets need to be that soft? From what I've read, if you can close the mouth with finger pressure you're good to go. But is super soft better than soft, or is having uniformity in the amount of annealing what I should be more concerned with. Maybe I'm sweating the small stuff here, but it's hard being OCD. :wink:

BT Sniper

01-13-2014, 02:12 PM

Uniformity = good!

Too soft is not necessarily better. As long as you can squish them flat in your fingers you will be good.

Your technique sounds like the same I had success with. I would bet you are good to go!

BT

Renofish

01-17-2014, 12:57 PM

I have been annealing 22 LR rimfire casing for bullet making for a number of years. I anneal them before the rim gets swagged and then once again just before the casing and now jacket gets made into a bullet. I uses a large kiln for controlled and uniform heat to anneal. I hold the casing at temperature for 20 additional mins. as it seems to equalize the softness in a mixed lot of brass.

If someone is looking for me to anneal their rimfired long rifle brass, I can help you out. The deal is this:
1) you ship me a large flat rate postal box full of long rifle brass (not 3/4 full)
2) I will anneal and ship back to you 1/2 of the brass at my expense to you in a flat rate priority box. (I keep the other 1/2 for my work and for return postage expenses)

You can contact me at renofish@gmail.com Rich

Prospector Howard

01-18-2014, 12:06 PM

Good thought Renofish but, most everyone around here anneals after derimming, so I'm not sure how may would take you up on your offer.

Longhill

03-16-2014, 05:59 PM

I picked up one of these from an online auction site...

http://www.riogrande.com/Product/SpeedFire-ElectricMini-1800-Kiln/703124?***=24

Was able to to get 1200 degrees in less than 20 minutes.
The platform will hold close to 100 9mm cases.
My new tool for annealing cases.

tiger762

03-25-2014, 09:17 PM

That's exactly how I anneal 2-3 lbs of 22LR at a time. I set the toaster oven to 450+ and the timer for 30 minutes. When they darken and look like ****, I know they're ready. My test is if I can crush the mouth of a 22 with thumb and index, it's annealed.

After that, the wet tumbler followed by drying with a heat gun. 1400-2100 more 22LR to now derim :bigsmyl2:

A toaster oven will not do the job.

B.

Pappa

12-25-2014, 12:15 AM

I use an old electric kiln that's been converted to a Raku? kiln. Heated with a propane tiger torch. I use an analog temp probe and put the brass in a stainless vegetable rinsing basket. The handles of the basket fit into the grooves where the electrical elements were in the fire brick. There's no problem reaching 1200*F in the kiln but the heat is a bit uneven. Once the temp is at 1200 and some of the brass is glowing, I move the torch to the vent hole in the lid or remove the lid completely and fire the brass from the top with the torch. In a minute or so, it's all glowing nicely. Let it cool and then clean. I use a stainless media tumbler WITH NO media. A squirt of Palmolive orange dish soap and some citric acid and hot tap water. 15 minutes later the brass is sparkly clean! If the brass doesn't come all the way clean, you need more citric acid. Rinse in water and you're good to go.

anotherred

12-25-2014, 12:00 PM

Pappa

12-26-2014, 02:24 AM

I'm thinking this is possible too. Brass was easy to bulge by seating the lead. Wrecked 6 of my first 25. Points formed real easy, but when I loaded them in my 10mm brass, the bullet was left with a seat ring around the nose. Not bad but noticeable. I won't heat the next batch to quite as bright of red. Didn't burn any zinc out but they could be a tad tougher.

mosby's men

02-04-2015, 09:17 PM

what am i doing wrong ? i cut my 40 caliber brass to .725 bought a small dutch oven with a lid , filled it up put it on gas bbq cracked the lid enough to slide thermometer in when it got to 650 degrees i set timer for a hour pulled them out .
can not crush any of the case mouths with finger.
tonight drove a bunch of nails into a board went out on my patio and hit them with a propane torch until they all glowed still can not crush them with my fingers
so whats up , are you suppose to crush 40 cal with finger pressure ?

IllinoisCoyoteHunter

02-04-2015, 09:19 PM

Generally, no. I tried to do the same with 45 cases after being annealed. They don't crush...easily. They swage fine though. You are good to go. Swage on!!

Side note:

I assume the temp got higher than 650. Any idea whaqt the temp was after the hour?

ncbearman

04-30-2015, 11:19 AM

Gentlemen,
I have read on here about annealing prior to swaging. I have seen alot of very creative ways to do so. I too came up with a way that is very efficient. I use my hot plate. I load it up with .40 cases, usually about 100 or so then I put the cores in. We all know that lead melts at 621 degrees so I know I am getting them at least that hot. Maybe hotter.
My question is 2 fold. 1] Is that hot enough to anneal and 2] how long do I need to let them sit at that temp before annealing is complete?
As usual thanks in advance for your help.

[smilie=s: Russ

-Mischief

04-30-2015, 11:20 AM

General rule of thumb to anneal brass is...red hot.

kc3ak

06-14-2015, 10:45 AM

Source for those looking for bulk citric acid

http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=citric

Lemi shine also works well.

Thought I would post it here so I can find it again too :)

GOod shooting

BT

I know this is a good bit late, but I just found this on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00D50XHPC?psc=1

2 lbs for $10.99 and free shipping if you have Amazon Prime.

kc3ak

06-14-2015, 10:58 AM

$400??? Are you nuts????

Get a BRAND new Lee 20 pound dipper pot for UNDER $100, and do even more, per batch, than you'd ever do with the used knife blade annealer.
The Lee pot version is even designed for the exact perfect temperature range!!!!
http://www.woodenluremaking.com/LeeMagnumMelter110V.jpg

What do you think of using the Lyman dipper? I think it might be 10lb, but it should go to the same temp. Comments?

By the way, I'm waiting for my Richard Corbin swagging set up as I type this. Getting the Sea Girt press, .223 3 die set and the 22lr case de-rimmer.

NC Brass

04-22-2016, 01:51 PM

Interesting and learned something new. Thanks

kc3ak

07-10-2016, 01:18 PM

Just to add a little to this thread. I bit the bullet (so to speak) and purchased a "RapidFire Pro-L" kiln for right at $400. It will take the temp up to 2200F if you want it to. And it will reach that temp in about 3-4 minutes. It has a programmable controller and a thermocouple to read the internal heat. It only takes 1500 watts to run it, and is small enough to carry around. That said, it IS small, and will not take a large load of brass (the internal size is 6x5.5x6 inches). I use a large can to hold my brass in it fits inside easily. Now, I have used it a couple of times and ran it up to 800F. Is that enough? Or is it too high or too low? I don't want to "cook" the brass, but I do want it fully annealed. Any suggestions are welcome. And thanks for the information I've already gleaned from this thread.

Pee Wee

07-10-2016, 05:42 PM

Duke in florida and I anneal in a lee 20lb dipper pot that he got, put in a couple of hand fulls. I made a cover for it out of thick piece of steel plate and cook for 15 min. and they glow red and are done.

DukeInFlorida

03-13-2017, 10:45 AM

UPDATE to this discussion..........

Pee Wee, Eddie P, and I have recently purchased a Paragon Jewelry style kiln. It is an electric kiln, runs on simple 115 V, 15 amps, 600 watts, and has a full digital controller. It's capable of temperatures from room temp to 2,000 degrees F. The volume inside is sufficient for annealing much larger quantities of brass than the Lee 20 pound dipper pot was. And, since this kiln is capable of controlling a specific "soak" time (when the brass gets to the 800 degrees, we can have it stay at that temperature for any amount of time we want), we can get the brass as dead soft as possible.

We'll be making a custom stainless steel mesh container for holding the brass, such that it will fit inside.

It's also discussed in another thread:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?328199-Table-Top-Kilns

Here's what we got, used, for under $500:
http://www.bigceramicstore.com/paragon-sc-series-kiln.html

We got ours from eBay.

Faret

03-13-2017, 08:39 PM

At 800 degrees how long are you letting it soak?

DukeInFlorida

03-14-2017, 05:42 PM

It doesn't require a lot of soak. Five minutes maybe. However, this kiln is all new to me, and I'll be doing a larger batch in this than ever before. So, to make sure that the inner brass gets up to temp, we may allow a few minutes, check them, and then proceed from there. It's the inner brass (protected from heat by the outer brass) that we are concerned about.

What's nice is that we can do all sorts of things with this kiln. Stress relieving, annealing, melting, etc.

R.Ph. 380

03-15-2017, 11:40 PM

I've been taking my brass to 10000F for 10 minutes. Works for me.

Bill

Fla9-40

10-14-2017, 08:02 AM

Well I lucked up and found a small electric Paragon kiln on craigslist for a song!

It uses "Cones"
(http://www.clay-king.com/kiln_supplies/kiln_supplies/pyrometric_cones.html it's the SRB Small Cones "Junior Cones" )
to determine the working temp but I would like to get a thermometer or probe type Thermocouple ....
does anyone have a suggestion and a link to good ones they have used?

I have tried to read all the post on this thread for the answers but man that's loads of reading!

My question is do you put the brass in the Kiln while it is warming up or after it gets to the desired temperature?

Looks like 1000 F is the target temp for about 10 minutes, so do you leave the brass in the kiln while it cools down or take them out to air cool?

ReloaderFred

10-14-2017, 11:25 AM

Try some of the ceramics forums for the answers about the temperature probe. My kiln was a ceramics kiln, and the previous owner updated it with a probe and controller that he got online somewhere.

I allow the brass to come up to temperature with the kiln, since putting a pan of brass inside a 1,000 degree F kiln can get pretty tricky, and I put mine in with the cores in them so they'll bond. My brass jackets are all standing up with the cores inside, so I don't want to have to fiddle with them in those kinds of temperatures.

I let the kiln cool overnight with the brass and cores inside. Even after setting for about 10 to 12 hours with no current applied and the lid closed, the interior is still over 250 degrees F, so use caution when removing what's inside. I used a handheld infrared temperature reader to find how hot they were the first time before I lifted my trays out, and I'm glad I did.

Here's a picture of a tray after it's removed from the kiln:

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m606/ReloaderFred/Annealing%20Jackets/SwagingandMisc022.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/ReloaderFred/media/Annealing%20Jackets/SwagingandMisc022.jpg.html)

And here's a picture of the same tray prior to being loaded into the kiln and before the kiln was turned on:

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m606/ReloaderFred/Annealing%20Jackets/SwagingandMisc020.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/ReloaderFred/media/Annealing%20Jackets/SwagingandMisc020.jpg.html)

Here's a picture of the updated controller and temperature probe the previous owner used on my kiln:

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m606/ReloaderFred/Annealing%20Jackets/SwagingandMisc021.jpg (http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/ReloaderFred/media/Annealing%20Jackets/SwagingandMisc021.jpg.html)

I use a temperature of 1,125 degrees F., since that's what Starline uses to anneal their brass between operations. I figured they'd been in the business a long time and had done all the research, so there's no sense in me doing my own. They know what they're doing, so I just borrowed their knowledge.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Fla9-40

10-15-2017, 01:07 PM

Thanks Fred for the information.

It does make more sense to let the Kiln cool down and not having to mess with hot trays/bowls to get them out.

I did go online to the company that sells parts and accessories for the Kiln I have and did find hand held temperature meters that come with probes that are not that bad of price!

Thanks again for the help!

01-01-2018, 01:03 AM

I been searching the thread here for a answer and also goggled it, A self clean oven hits 900 plus degrees so annealing brass should not be a problem. I seen somewhere on the site guys doing just that my ? is how are they loading the brass on cooking sheets or stacked in a pail? Most self cleaning cycles are long like 4 hours which is over kill and will burn your elements out fast I would think. So the next ? is how long do you run the stove and with how much brass. I have a full size oven I use for PC bullets in no installed in my casting area I like to use to anneal 22 rimfire and 40 brass for swagging.
So anybody using this method shine some light on what is needed or how they are doing it with a reg oven.

BT Sniper

01-03-2018, 08:56 PM

I use the self cleaning oven for annealing 22lr jackets and it works perfect. My oven is gas operated. I make sure and do it on a windy day when no one is home (what the wife doesn't know :) ) with all the windows open. Out of 4 attempts I have set of the smoke detectors 3 times :) Clean brass is key to not making a lot of smoke.

I use a large pizza cooking sheet with holes all over the bottom purchased from walmart.

The top of the oven gets the hottest. This is where I like to have the brass.

I only fill the sheet so it is about one full layer, maybe two at the most, thick with 22lr brass. I don't know exact count but maybe 1K worth on each sheet. These are probably 20" in diameter pizza sheets??? I'll have to check.

I fill the top two shelves both with one pizza sheet full of brass. Turn on the self clean cycle, let it run for 30 minutes to one hour and then turn it off. As soon as the door unlocks I take the hot brass and put them directly into a bucket of hot water with a bit of lemi shine to start the process of cleaning off the scale. Then it goes into the tumbler with stainless steel media, or can go to tumbler skipping the hot soak, either way it needs to be clean of all scale when it comes out of the tumbler.

The brass will come out of the oven with a silver color when annealed enough. You will be able to tell if it is annealed enough when you can squish the mouth of the case between your two fingers.

Here is a pic of a large zip lock bag full of brass. Don't recall how big it was, more then a gallon size but it was what I did on two pizza sheets worth ( might have actually been 4 sheets worth) and this is how clean it gets after the wet stainless steel tumble followed by a quick dry in corn cob media. That is a 2 liter soda bottle pictured with it full of brass that hadn't been cleaned yet. I think a 2 liter bottle will hold about 3K pieces of 22lr brass.

https://i.imgur.com/PZ3XlNxl.jpg

I tried to anneal pistol brass in the oven but it didn't work as well, might have needed to "soak" longer since it is thicker brass. For pistol brass I use an actual elc. kiln but for 22lr jacket using a self cleaning oven is my preferred method for annealing the thin brass jackets.

BT

BlackoutBuilder

01-06-2018, 11:53 PM

Just picked up a Lyman 20 lb pot, the kind for use with a ladle. On sale for 35 on Amazon. Simple, cheap, and effective.

Hueyville

08-20-2018, 07:39 PM

I have a Vulcan Multi-Stage 3-1750 programmable oven use for heat treating parts as needed in my machine shop and other chores. Has a maximum temperature of over 2,000° F and can be set to bring items up and down to different temperatures and hold them user defined times at each temperature. Can get over 1,000 cases in it at a time for annealing and anyone in the Lake Lanier area of Northeast Georgia is welcome to use it days I am in the shop. Will know for sure what temperature and time your items stay at it without any guesswork. Just drop me a PM if want to use and will work something out.

muleskinner222

11-27-2018, 11:15 AM

I figured I'd add a bit to this thread. I have a hardness tester and decided to test a before and after .45 acp case. I tested it as fired (not sure if it was a reload or not, I'll try another that I can confirm is once fired) and then I tested it after I heated it to dull red and quenched in water. I tried to test on the edge of the webbing each time as close as possible. I will also test sometime soon, whether or not quenching makes a difference as there seems to be some discrepancy with this topic. I was using the "B" scale.

http://i.imgur.com/erDe3DX.jpg (https://imgur.com/erDe3DX)

http://i.imgur.com/f0RFDxW.jpg (https://imgur.com/f0RFDxW)

BT Sniper

11-29-2018, 04:54 PM

Muleskinner,

Helps us to interpret the readings on your gauge.

and just for curious sake maybe one additional sample.... like a piece of pure lead???? So we can compare.

Thanks

BT

muleskinner222

11-30-2018, 02:38 PM

Muleskinner,

Helps us to interpret the readings on your gauge.

and just for curious sake maybe one additional sample.... like a piece of pure lead???? So we can compare.

Thanks

BT

In the top picture of my first post the unannealed brass is reading 54 HRB which is the hardness on the "B" scale.
The bottom picture was measured after annealing and reads 3 HRB which means it is much softer after annealing.

My tester only has "B" and "C" scales. The "B" scale is for softer material and uses a 1/16 ball penetrator, to test harder material like knife steel it uses a diamond. To measure lead I'd need to buy an 1/8 ball penetrator. I tried it with the 1/16 and the preload buried the penetrator before the major load was even applied.

http://i.imgur.com/gX41kEH.jpg (https://imgur.com/gX41kEH)

http://i.imgur.com/5f0Zxsp.jpg (https://imgur.com/5f0Zxsp)