.45 Auto Rim cases

[Dale53]

I have ordered a supply of .45 Auto Rim cases from Starline. The price is 500 for $85.55 or 1000 for $150.75. The price INCLUDES shipping (there is a small charge for insurance). That is only 15 Cents each for brand new Premium Brass! The back ordered availability is listed at 3/31/2011.

My experience has been that if the orders come in soon enough to warrant an early run they'll do it. So, if you have been thinking about ordering a supply of .45 Auto Rim brass, now might be a good time to do it. It MAY shorten the wait time for us all. In my case, I have some and LOTS of .45 ACP so it isn't critical to me but it might help someone else who needs a supply earlier.

Just a thought I want to share:

http://www.starlinebrass.com/index.php?cPath=1&osCsid=7da6389889a7c7db0c65dc4cf710ff9b

Here's my 625-8 Jerry Miculek Special in .45 ACP/.45 Auto Rim:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/SW625-8JMSpecial-3351.jpg

Here are .45 Auto Rim cases loaded with the MiHec 200 gr (Lyman 452374) Hollow Point bullet to 1000 fps. Self defense or varmint load "par excellence"!

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/4DalesPistolsRevolversSelects-3332.jpg

Here are .45 Auto Rim cases loaded with the NOE 250 gr Keith (Lyman clone of the 454424) at 900+ fps - premier hunting load for the .45 Auto Rim:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/4DalesPistolsRevolversSelects-3336.jpg

45 Auto and Auto Rim FOREVER!!:drinks:

Dale53

[Shooter6br]

Question : I plan to buy the Smith 45ACP. I dislike "moon clips" Do you have problems using 45 Rim. in it? i would use the clips to also use the regular 45acp. i have a killer Mihec 45 ACP 200g HP mold...Thanksd Rick

[35remington]

Shooter, the pistols are designed to use Auto Rim cases and function just like a regular revolver when using them.

For various reasons that have to do with headspace slack, Auto Rim cases are more reliable when the gun MUST go off.......more so than ACP cases in moon clips.

You can be assured that the first six rounds in my 625 are always in Auto Rim brass. When hunting (I took a doe last year with Auto Rim cases, 6.8 Unique and the 452423 of 246 grains @ 975 fps) Auto Rim brass is all that I use. The Keith bullet and rimmed case allow a good firm roll crimp. That gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.

Owning an ACP/Auto Rim revolver and not owning AR brass is a mistake.

Dale, I like Starline brass and you know I like the Auto Rim.

If ordering a quantity will help speed up availability, I would be pleased to order another 500. I'll get it done next week.

You are right; if the price includes shipping that is a bargain for slightly oddball brass of excellent quality.

Thanks very much for the heads up.

[Dale53]

Shooter6br;
There are really no problems using the .45 Auto Rim in a 625 S&W chambered for .45 ACP. I probably fired at least 3000 rounds loaded in Auto Rim cases last year. The only "issue" is that of ANY revolver with rimmed cases - sometimes a case can get stuck under the extractor (this is more of an operator's error than a fault of the revolver). One thing that the full moon clips eliminate, is a single case getting stuck under the extractor causing a momentary delay in reloading. The full moon clips eject "en block" so that never happens.

I find the Auto Rim cases much more convenient than the ACP cases, that's all. Further, I load hunting loads heavier for my revolvers than for my 1911 platforms. The Auto Rim cases with heavy loads can NEVER be accidentally introduced into my 1911's.

35remington;
You and I are pretty much "on the same page" on most things. I appreciate you jumping on the band wagon. Who knows, if we get several fellers and gals to order cases we just may seriously shorten the time to delivery.:mrgreen:

NOTE:
To all who are loading Auto Rim cases with heavy bullets. Heavy bullets with good crimp grooves benefit from a good roll crimp. Often .45 ACP dies only taper crimp (depends on who made them and when they were produced).

The Lee Factory Crimp die normally ships as a taper crimp die. However, I made a call to Lee and talked to one of their techs - the .45 Colt factory crimp die has a roll crimp insert (instead of a taper crimp insert). IF you add an adaptor (that Lee can furnish) you can use the Lee .45 Colt roll crimp insert. The two inserts are different lengths and the adaptor (really a spacer takes up that extra space when used in the .45 ACP Factory Crimp Die). It works perfectly, too!

The cost is nominal (something around $7.00-$8.00 for both parts, as I remember). It is a worthy addition to your reloading bench. I suggest you get both parts (even if you already have the Colt Factory Crimp die) is nice so that you won't have to change the settings on BOTH of your die sets.

As an aside, I size my .45 ACP/Auto Rim bullets as well as my .45 Colt bullets to .452" as they fit all of my guns at that size. The Factory Crimp dies work perfectly well with that bullet size in both calibers.

If you look carefully at the pictures of the cartridges above, the 200 gr Hollow points are taper crimped and the 250 gr Keith's are perfectly roll crimped.

Dale53

[bigboredad]

I have a question about the ar brass. I know the ar brass will not work in a blackhawk using the acp cylinder but would it work in the colt cylinder? Or is the rim of the ar brass to thick?

[Murphy]

I never experimented with the .45 Auto Rim until 1989 when the 625's with 5" barrels came out. There was a lot of talk about it then with a great deal of loading data in all the gun rag's.

The Lyman #452423 mold was still available at the time, and one article I read was enough to get me to order the mold and some Auto Rim brass. The mold dropped a nice boolit with my alloy at the time that came out at 240 Grains.

I won't go into any details of the load itself, but with my Chrony and gently easing up the powder charge, I got an honest 1200 FPS out of the gun/load. I was in total shock. The case's fell out of the cylinder with ease and the primers looked fine.

I can't think of more versatile revolver in my colletion. Light loads with RN boolits for plinking and small game, Wincheter HP's in moon clips for self defense, and the Auto Rim round will handle anything likely to attack me in the hill's of S.E. Oklahoma.

Murphy

[Dale53]

bigboredad;
Auto Rim brass will NOT work in a Ruger .45 ACP cylinder (I have one) due to it's extra thick rim (the Rugers have no room, and no need, for full moon clips like the double action revolvers do). That applies to the Colt SAA, also.

However, there are those that alter the .45 ACP cylinders (by milling the rear end down about .030" so that they WILL accept Auto Rim cases). An easier "solution" is to simply try .45 Cowboy Special cases. They have the same rim as the .45 Colt but are the exact same capacity as Auto Rim and ACP cases. They are available here:

http://cowboy45special.com/cowboy45brass.html

Keep in mind that you maybe ought to check YOUR revolver to be sure that the headspace is correct with your .45 ACP cylinder. They fit in MY revolver but may not in all (mine is a factory (as issued) SS Bisley Ruger .45 Colt/.45 ACP Convertible)

Dale53

[35remington]

Murph, I'd back that load with the 452423 down some. That's got to be in the 30,000 psi range.

[arjacobson]

I have been itching for a 45acp revolver for years...Nice rig!

[bigboredad]

thanks for the link Dale I had heard of the
45 special brass but couldn't remember where I'd seen it and read about. By the way I really like your 625 jm special when you get bored with it you can send it my way[smilie=s:

[GLL]

Dale:

Interesting coincidence ! I just ordered 500 .45 Auto Rim and a 1000 .44 Special last week myself !
The Auto Rim was backordered until 3/31/2011.

Jerry

[376Steyr]

I have found it is much easier to get an accurate load using AR brass than it is when using ACP brass in the moon clips, which I'm sure is due to alignment and headspacing issues.

[Char-Gar]

Guys.. Make certain you don't shoot loads stouter than factory hardball in those Pre-War Colts and Smiths.

Murphy.. I shoot lost of 453423 in AR and ACP cases and would be uncomfortable with loads that produce 1,200 fps.

[crabo]

How would you guys compare the 45 autorim vs the 44 special? I just can't fall in love with the single actions.

[35remington]

The 44 Special has a bigger case and gets higher velocity with comparable bullet weights at comparable pressures, and has thicker cylinder walls than an Auto Rim.

Let me set the record for reliability straight when discussing AR and Auto cases.

First, given reasonably clean chambers without a buildup of carbon, lubricating wax, leading, etc. there are no issues with getting clipped 45 Auto cases to shoot reliably.

I haven't had any trouble with those when the gun was maintained. Should I carry one for SD issues, I don't have a problem with clipped ammo. In those instances the gun will be spotlessly clean.

Problems arise when:

Clips get crudded up with fouling, which softens the firing pin blow.
The rear of the cylinder face has firing residue and wax on the cylinder, softening the firing pin blow. The connectedness of the clip makes this an "all around" problem.
Oversize or ill fitting cast bullet loads are used in fouled chambers that provide drag to the cartridge movement and soften the firing pin blow. (Can happen to AR cases as well.)
Clips get bent, which provides "springy" resistant to the firing pin and yep, you guessed it, soften the firing pin blow.
The gun is fired at an upward angle, which means the firing pin must not only move the aligned case in the chamber forward to fire it, but it must drag the adjacent cartridges forward in so doing. Such softens the firing pin blow, and produce misfires.

In most instances this isn't a problem. Carrying preloaded clips makes shooting faster, and "de-clipping" the cases isn't that big a deal with a home made tool made out of pipe.

One caution.....with clipped ammo and steel clips, carrying them in your pants pocket is asking for them to get bent as the clipped ammo is somewhat fragile. If you carry spares, get a proper belt pouch for them or transport them carefully.

[Dale53]

crabo;
I have been a .44 lover (both .44 Special and .44 Magnum) ever since my teen age years due entirely to my "mentor" (Elmer Keith "spoke" to me through his books and STILL does). My affection was NOT misplaced.

However, during my IPSC years (in a five year period I shot 75,000 rounds of full house .45 ACP's through my 1911's) I gained a GREAT deal of respect for the .45 ACP. I, in spite of all my competition pistol experience, am really a rifleman at heart. That was my first love (of the inanimate variety). However, when I pretty much lost my vision in my right eye about three years ago, I went back to pistol shooting (using my left eye). Of course, I had never really stopped shooting pistol...

Not long after I bought my first 625 (the 625-8 JM Special pictured above). I was reminded how easy the .45 ACP (and then, the .45 Auto Rim) is to cast bullets for, load, and shoot. I am a "Certified Old Fart" and can still rack up some VERY nice targets using this "shooter friendly" round.

An old, famous, playwright, once wrote, "Comparisons are odious" (ergo, they STINK). As a for instance, and from a man's perspective, remember your younger days when you tried to compare women - basically, a MINE FIELD. The most intelligent way to go about it is to sit down and list your actual NEEDS (but NOT entirely ignoring your WANTS, either). If you do that, you will realize that both of these rounds have a lot to offer.

In my day (which is rapidly waning:bigsmyl2:), the .45 ACP was the armed forces pistol cartridge of choice. As a result there was a LOT of .45 ACP brass available for very low prices. Military brass has crimped primer pockets but a primer pocket swage will sort that out in quick order and only has to be done ONCE. I still have a lot of .45 ACP brass, so that was a no brainer for me. There is still a good bit of ACP brass around.

If you have to buy brass (and for the .44 Special, you will), then it is about a wash (they are close to the same price).

Reloading ease is on the side of the .45 ACP/Auto Rim but neither is a problem.

The .45 ACP/Auto Rim has small capacity that is a positive feature for mild target loads (ignition is NEVER a problem with standard pistol primers) but proper, safe, heavy loads are just a powder measure away. Accuracy has been easy to find for me with both rounds but as any single individual who is honest with himself, this may vary from gun to gun.

Bullet moulds with a variety of shapes, weights and sizes are readily available for both.

Power level, here is where the .44 Special "can" move ahead. You can readily move ahead of the Auto Rim with the Special. 1200 fps is readily and safely available with a 250-260 gr cast Keith in a modern large frame revolver. On the other hand, the Auto Rim can be safely loaded to drive a 250 gr Keith bullet at speeds in excess of the original black powder loading of the .45 Colt. The Colt's documented U.S. Army standard was to shoot through a horse at 100 yards. The Auto Rim can be loaded to do that with a MUCH better and more effective bullet shape. So, how much power is enough? Modern deer are NOT armor plated. The .45 Auto Rim, with a proper load and a proper cast or jacketed bullet will do all that needs to be done for most hunters up to 100 yards.

Trajectory - the .44 Special will be superior by several inches for long shots (this is due to greater sectional density and a couple hundred feet extra velocity). Here again, how flat do you need it? More importantly, you need to shoot your chosen handgun, FROM FIELD POSITIONS, at various ranges so you KNOW just what you and YOUR gun can do. You owe it to yourself and the game you hunt to do a good job.

I would be remiss if I didn't mention the reloading speed advantage of the .45 ACP cases. Using either a round nose bullet or a truncated cone bullet, you will NOT believe how quickly a feller or gal can eject the empties en bloc, and reload using full moon clips. The steel clips DO require tools to comfortably load, however, the polymer RIMZ full moon clips easily load and unload with the fingers for range use. If you want to see just how fast a revolver can be shot, unloaded, loaded and shot again, check this out:

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/jerry-miculek-part-2-2/fb31ebb0f7074acf3e58fb31ebb0f7074acf3e58-420180918593?q=Jerry%20Miculek

Keep in mind, we are not Jerry Miculek, but regardless, the full moon clip loaded revolver can be "run" extremely fast by a competent shooter even if he/she isn't a Champion.

Final thoughts, I like them both. Your choice will NOT be a wrong choice, it will just be personal opinion but NEITHER will be wrong.

Here in Ohio, minimum barrel length for hunting is 5". I have a five inch 625-6.

By the way, the new Gun Digest has an excellent article on the .45 Auto Rim, by Robert Campbell. It would be worth your while to read it. Brian Pearce and John Taffin both have great articles on the Auto Rim on the web.

Dale53

[trap shooter]

why not use 45 sp

[theperfessor]

I'd get in on this except I got 500 .45 AR cases from Starline's last run. IIRC I got them a week or two before the original BO date, so maybe you guys will get them a little early also.

Same thing with some .44 Mag brass, it was originally listed as available in January 2011 but I got them in early December.

I've got all my AR brass sized, primed, and neck expanded. I'm just waiting to cast some 200 gr SWCs in my new Lee 6 cavity mold. (It's the conventional lube version).

I've also got a two cavity RCBS mold that casts a 250ish gr bullet in a RNFP design. It's similar to the Lyman 454190 but has a definite 45* shoulder where the ogive meets the first band. This bullet feeds and shoots fine in my unaltered Colt Commander and Government model but I've been wanting to seat it out a little farther to see if I can get better accuracy in my 625 with it. (I'm not planning to hot rod it by the way; 850 - 900 fps is fine with me.)

35Rem, that's a very good summary of the difference in reliability between ACP and AR ammo in a revolver. I might only add that some of the problems you mention are lessened (but not eliminated) by using good quality 1/2 moon or 1/3 moon clips.

[Dale53]

I would like to add another little aside. What loads do I use?

My most used is for target use. If I am loading .45 ACP cases, I load them to fit both my revolvers AND my 1911's. There are practical reasons for that. Accuracy has not been adversely affected, in my case.

Using both ACP and Auto Rim cases:

Target -
4.0 grs of Bullseye or equivalent (load to a velocity of 725 fps or so) with the Mihec #68 200 gr SWC. I use what powders are available at a good price. Bullseye works very well but is dirty. Clays is clean but rather less versatile than I like - works very well, tho'. Win 231 works just fine but is not as clean as Clays. Titegroup is my powder of choice for this use - it is not position sensitive (not needed in the .45 ACP/Auto Rim cases but it is a very useful feature in target loads in the .44 Special and .45 Colt which I also shoot).

Self Defense
- either the Lee 230 gr TC loaded to 850-900 fps using standard hardball load levels or somewhat higher using Titegroup, Unique, or ...

Using the Mihec 200 gr hollow point (Lyman 452374 hollow pointed) at 1000 fps, this makes a dandy varmint caliber as well as self defense. These two loads using your powder of choice (most of mine have been loaded with Unique) make a tremendously good self defense revolver. For actual use, you may wish to substitute a similar factory load for "potential" liability reasons. At any rate, these bullets allow RELIABLE speed loads with full moon clips.

Hunting load:
I use the excellent home cast NOE bullet (250 gr Keith clone of the Lyman 454424) with a charge of Unique that gives me 900+ fps. I prefer to load the "heavy" loads in Auto Rim cases to avoid accidentally getting the ammo in one of my 1911's. It won't blow up my autos, but they are finely tuned pistols and really do NOT need to be beat to death. The revolver will safely handle considerably heavier loads than the auto pistol.

None of the heavier loads should be fired in the original 1917 revolvers. Their cylinders were not heat treated and some have reported split cylinders with heavy loads that have appeared in loading manuals. The heavy loads are perfectly safe in modern S&W 25's and 625's (made after 1950). The target loads as well as original military level loads are safe in the early revolvers. Folks, the early 1917's are nice, legacy guns, and shouldn't be abused just on general principles. Let's be safe and not sorry...

I have shot a half dozen of modern 625's (625-6 and 625-8's) and they chamber and shoot heavy bullets quite well. Some earlier guns are too tight in the cylinder throats to accept a heavy bullet and I understand that some of the earlier ones had shorter cylinders that can adversely affect cartridge overall length. The cylinder throats on my gun are .4525" which are absolutely PERFECT for the heavier bullets as well as the lighter target bullets and cast round nose and TC bullets.

I value my 625's VEWY much (my three year old grandson's word :mrgreen:). I do not use the heavy loads often. I want my revolvers to last "forever" and do NOT need to be bashing them unnecessarily. However, it is nice to know that I CAN call upon them for chores that exceed what is possible in the 1911 platform...if necessary.

YMMV
Dale53

[Dale53]

trapshooter;
The .45 Cowboy Special has the same rim thickness as the .45 Colt - it won't work and should NOT be used in the .45 ACP/Auto Rim revolver. It would create excessive headspace and while, in some revolvers, it may fire it would be BAD practice. However, it MAY work in your Ruger Single Action .45 Colt/.45 ACP Convertible (it definitely will work in the .45 Colt cylinder, it MAY work in the .45 ACP cylinder).

Dale53

[Murphy]

Guys.. Make certain you don't shoot loads stouter than factory hardball in those Pre-War Colts and Smiths.

Murphy.. I shoot lost of 453423 in AR and ACP cases and would be uncomfortable with loads that produce 1,200 fps.

Advice noted:

I have since traded that particular 625 that I had worked up to 1200FPS in. I just searched my record's and found that I have indeed backed off that load. I changed to the 4" inch 625-??? I only took the load to 1095fps with that one.

Since that time, I once again swapped for a 625 MOUNTAIN GUN in .45ACP/AR. I haven't worked up a load for it as of yet. And I intend to keep this one till the party is over.

Charles, I want to thank you for your well known article on the #452423 mould. It was your article that got me into that boolit to begin with. And at the same time, thanks for the information you've also provided me with along the way concerning the 1937 Brazilians.

It has suddenly dawned on me just now something I have lectured about but forgotten I was as guilty as sin of myself. I currently have no stout loads for my 625 gun loaded in AR brass. It would be a total disaster for the stout loads to ever find their way into my old Brazilian.

Pretty much the same for those who load .45 COLT loads up for their Ruger's and such that will blow the living daylights out of any other 'factory' handgun.

Got some serious pondering to do now...sigh.

Thanks for the input gentlemen,

Murphy

[crabo]

Dale 53, I have several 1911 45acp, and a PC 44 mag. I really want one of the 5 shot L frame 44 Specials, but I want it in 4 inch. I even looked at Clements GP100 conversions, but unless it includes the base gun, it is priced really high.

The 45 acp looks good. I've seen Jerry do the reload in person. Pretty amazing.

[Grapeshot]

why not use 45 sp

The round you mentioned in the correctly named the .45 COWBOY SPECIAL. It is a .45ACP length case with a .45 Colt Rim. It will not headspace correctly in revolvers chambered for the .45 Auto-Rim. It is designed for .45 COLT revolvers and is used primarily in the Cowboy Action Shooting Sport for those who want to shoot reduced loads in a Single Action Army of one type or another.

[white eagle]

they come out beautifully in my acp cylinder (45 convertible)
actually better than the acp's do

[Dale53]

ddixie884;
Might I ask what "ttt" stands for? Third Tier Toilet? The Toy Tiger? Tina's Tiny *its? LOL

Please help me...

Dale53

[John D]

ddixie884;
Might I ask what "ttt" stands for? Third Tier Toilet? The Toy Tiger? Tina's Tiny *its? LOL

Please help me...

Dale53

Could it mean "To The Top"?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Dale I got here a little late but next time for your brass try www.trackofthewolf.com They are a distributor for Starline, and their prices are considerably less that direct from Starline.

I got .44 Special cases from them earlier this year, about 15% less than direct.

I love your gun, I want one so I can shoot up all of my 200Gr SWC's I bought that won't feed in my Glock 21.

Randy

[Dale53]

Randy;
I have a house full of fine revolvers. However, I must admit, that my 625's are among my all time favorites.

Thanks for the information on Track of the Wolf.

Dale53

[GLL]

Randy:

Track of the Wolf is indeed cheaper than Starline, BUT once you calculate in shipping they are actually $6.00 per 500 MORE expensive than Starline. Still a good company to deal with for other items.

Jerry

[dbldblu]

I trim 45 colt cases such that they headspace on the case mouth for my 1937. They are not 45 cowboy specials as they are longer. The rim is adequate for positive ejection. I also use regular old 45 ACP cases with clips and have no problems with those.