Simple Annealing questions

[Daryl]

Maybe simple question about anealing 9mm cases for the 40 bullets. Is it necessary if the cases form and work ok as is? If you anneal, you just let them air cool?

thanks

[wallenba]

Need to drop cool them in water. Neat video on doing it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgK2sdDo_Ck You will have to find the right sockets if you do it this way. Also don't let them "glow" red. When to anneal is less easily explained How many times they have been reloaded and how hot they were matters. Even by brand it will differ when. I just anneal after the third or fourth firing on my pistol brass and hope I got it in time.

[a.squibload]

Good advice BUT the OP (Daryl) is asking about annealing 9mm cases to swage 40 cal JHP boolits.
The video shows annealing necks of rifle cases, different subject.
(Great idea using the drill, ensures even heating!)

The consensus lately is that annealing 9s to swage into 40 JHPs is not necessary,
but MIGHT make it easier on the swage dies over time.
Some guys have stopped annealing and say it works fine.
I might try it that way after I use up the brass I've already annealed.
(Shortening brass with a saw should be done before annealing, apparently soft brass doesn't cut as well.)

Water quenching is not necessary with brass, in the video I'm pretty sure
he is cooling the brass so that only the neck is annealed.
It won't hurt to drop 'em in water, either way won't effect the hardness of brass.
I spray mine with water just to cool 'em down.

You DO want to make 'em glow red if you're annealing for swaging,
to make sure the rim / web area gets nice & soft.

Hope this helps. Hope I got it right! Suggestions?

[MIBULLETS]

This youtube video is for anealing for reloading, not for bullet making.

If the cases form OK without annealing and it isn't stressing your press, then by all means go for it. Air cool or water is fine. No difference in the end result. If you want to use water, you can also add some vinigar and table salt to it. It will help clean up the black marks and scale from the annealing process.

[b2riesel]

Heh...just a little side note....if you use the Electric Oven Self Clean Cycle of your kitchen oven to take the temps up to about 900F...Either don't use a Pyrex dish to do this in....or simply don't spray your brass with water unless you want to watch the Pyrex dish explode into 4985948598 pieces.

I'm not saying I did this...but I'm not saying I didn't do it either.

[wallenba]

[QUOTE=a.squibload;1124242]Good advice BUT the OP (Daryl) is asking about annealing 9mm cases to swage 40 cal JHP boolits.
The video shows annealing necks of rifle cases, different subject.
(Great idea using the drill, ensures even heating!)

Gotcha...zipped over my head that time, I should have read it more carefully.:oops:

[BwBrown]

There is a difference between annealing for reloading and for swaging.

For reloading, only the neck is heated to soften it, then quenched in water to keep the heat from traveling to the base, rendering it unsafe.

For swaging the entire case is heated to annealing temperature then cooled - slow or fast, it doesn't matter.

I use a small kiln to heat. Most any controllable source that will get you to 800-1,000 degrees will do. 1,000 degrees for one hour renders the cases quite soft.

[a.squibload]

Wallenba, no biggie, at least we got to see that vid.
I never annealed rifle cases before, that looks like a good method to keep from wrecking them!

[MIBULLETS]

I agree the socket thing is a pretty good idea. My Dad and his cousin went in on a machine made for anealing rifle case necks. You can set the timer to hold the case in the flame for a set amount of time while it is spining. All you need to do is load the case in, let it rotate, load another, when the time is up the case moves to the next station and falls into the coolant. Pretty cool, but expensive!

[BT Sniper]

Fully anealed jackets make better bullets! Plain and simple! The advantages far out weigh the little time saved. It is not difficult to anneal a couple hundred cases at a time. I have completed 5 gallons worth in less then a couple hours. If any one needs tips or addvice to speed this process there are plenty of us to ask that are successfuly annealing these cases in large quanities.

Annealed case allows the bullet to fill out at the base (rim) allowing for proper enguagement of the barrel without gas blow by. This should allow for better accuracy. Also it is easier on your equipment (press and dies) whlie forming the bullets and possible your barrel.

I must say that I would recamend anyone that is forming bullets from brass cases to first fully anneal the case. Save your equipment from the stess it is worth the little bit of extra effort!

Good shooting

BT

[Ballard]

BT what is your annealing method?

[BT Sniper]

Stainless steel sink collender (stainless wire mesh) in a gutted BBQ grill placed dirrectly on flame. Get the grill as hot as possible, 700 degrees atleast. About 10-15 minutes or so till they glow, stir at some point of process . Hundred or two at a time. Dump hot brass into water then acid bath or strait into acid bath from grill. Dry and tumble 8 hours overnight, good to go!

What ever heating method you use I like to make sure the case glows at some point from dirrect contact with flame.

Be sure and keep annealed brass seperate from all others and well labled. If you find lone brass on bench with unknown anneal through it away or reanneal it.

BT

[Ballard]

Thanks Brian. Tell me about the acid bath. This recycling of .223 brass, etc is new to me. Always used jackets before. Thanks.

[BwBrown]

Thanks Brian. Tell me about the acid bath. This recycling of .223 brass, etc is new to me. Always used jackets before. Thanks.

I use a 50/50 vinegar and water, let sit 30 minutes, rinse and spread out to dry. Save and reuse the vinegar mix, maybe add a bit for the next batch. Vinegar is less obnoxious, and cheaper than some other "acids."
Bob

[MIBULLETS]

A little bit of table salt in the 50/50 bath helps too.

[BT Sniper]

PH reducer found in pool supplies works great too. Hot water and only a couple minutes needed. Havn't tried soaking them longer?

[Daywalker]

Learned this from here on the site. I wish I could remember the member's handle to give credit, Lemishine and hotwater mix. You can boil in the solution or like me, I use it in my ultrasonic cleaner...

[Jailer]

Learned this from here on the site. I wish I could remember the member's handle to give credit, Lemishine and hotwater mix. You can boil in the solution or like me, I use it in my ultrasonic cleaner...

Yup, same thing I use. If you can't find that at your local Chinamart look for some citric acid in the canning section of your local grocery store.

[mold maker]

Citric acid in 5 gal bucket, heated to near boiling with low flame on turkey fryer, remove and add brass. Stir for 5 min or less determined by dipping out samples. When cleaned to satisfaction, remove, rinse, dry, and polish.
You can easily do 3 gal of brass at a time.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I did use the hot water-vinegar-salt solution, works good.
1 gallon HOT water add 1 cup salt, stir till desolved, then add vinegar last.
Soak the brass 5 or 10 minutes.
rinse real well 3 or 4 times, then dry them, then tumble.
I would do them in batches of about 100.
the solution would work for about 4 batches,
each successive batch needs a longer soak time.

BUT Now,
I mail ordered some powdered food grade citric acid, 100% pure.
I put about 3 tblsps of the powder into 3/4 gallon water in a old
crockpot I got at a thrift store, heat on high, soak for 5 minutes or so
using a nylon net bag, then dry them.
this solution doesn't seem to lose it's power, but I haven't save any overnight
or realistically for days on end.

The citric acid passivates the brass...read more about that in the "Kit room"
section. But the short story is the Passivation keeps the brass from
quickly tarnishing...possibly keeping them from tarnishing for a year or more.
Jon

[BT Sniper]

I'm going to have to try the citric acid approach. The PH reducer cleanes but the brass will tarnish right in frount of your eyes. Tumble in media removes and shines but if you guys can soak, clean and no tarnish! That's cool!

Jon, do you still have to tumble the brass afterwards?

[Daryl]

I now see the merits of annealing. I've not test fired yet, but have tried creating the 40 cal bullet out of 9MM cases with (1) no annealing; (2) attempted annealing in oven at 500 degrees plus; and (3) MAP torch applied until case glowed.

So, 3, for sure, reached the proper temp.

After creating the bullets and measuring, only #3 had the case head actually mic out at .4005 as well as the base of the bullet up to the ogive start. No matter how much I tried, #1 and #2 had the case head at least .005 under what it should be.

Now, I've just got to find a convenient and cost-effective way to do it. I've read many of the posts and lots of ideas. I tried the propane burner and closed pot, but could not get it much over 500 except maybe right down by the flame. I like the idea of the kiln - maybe I can find someone that will just do up a big batch for me. The sticky on annealing helped me alot as well as the input. But there is nothing like actually seeing it yourself!!

[teddyblu]

DARYL:
Do a search for KILN on craigslist in your area, you will find a kiln to fit any price range

[BwBrown]

DARYL:
Do a search for KILN on craigslist in your area, you will find a kiln to fit any price range

A smaller size, often referred to as enamel or glass or jeweler's will give plenty of heat in a small economical package. They usually have a 3 or 4 position heat control switch.

A pyrometer will give accurate temperature readings.

I found both on the "bay" for under 200 shipped. Together they take all the guesswork out of the process.
Bob

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

BT,
So far, I have only cleaned some old tarnished 30-06 rifle brass for reloading and didn't run them through the tumbler. They were super clean but looked like factory new brass, which kind of have a bead blasted satin finish and not the High polish I get from tumbling with cob media coated with polish and car wax. The "kit room" thread said that tumbling would probably negate the passivation. My plan is to NOT tumble annealed cases for swaging. I need to try the 5.7x28 cases next to see of the citric acid will clean up the burnt polymer finish and see what they look like and if I think they need to tumble...I post photos when I get around to that.
Jon


Daryl,
I haven't posted this recently, But I anneal in a wood stove. If you have one and are interested, I'll explain how I do it so I don't end up with a molten blob of brass, which happened to another poster here last year.
Jon

[BT Sniper]

Thanks Jon, Keep us posted. Got some possible new developments coming for your .308 so don't make them all yet :)

BT

[teddyblu]

BwBrown
i have one about same size. I use it for heat treat dies and reamers.. I heat to temp throw in a piece of particle board, about 1 in. square then insert the part.
It consumes oxgen to help reduce scale.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

BT,
your funny, I have about 2K pcs of 5.7 brass,
maybe and I mean maybe, I'll find time to swage 100 light weight 308s
I am thinking around 130 gr....maybe ? maybe lighter.

I have been real busy til this week, finally got a little time off.
I recently traded for some lyman 45 parts, I went through and cleaned
everything up, and started fabricating some replacement parts.
this is seeming to consume this whole "fridgid" week.
it was about -10º this morning...58º in the house... brrrrr
maybe I'll get to the 30's this weekend :)
Jon

[Jailer]

Daryl, this is the method I use. It might be cheaper than buying a kiln and it works.

I anneal mine in brownie pans over the burner on an old gas grill. I've got the height of the pans set so they are just off the burner. I can do a couple hundred or so at a time this way. I leave em in for an hour just to make sure they get good and hot. The bottoms of the brownie pan get red hot in some spots but not in others but they spread the heat out enough that all the brass get annealed. In the pictures below I just have a few brass in from when I was testing but when I anneal the pans are full.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/annealed6.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/annealed8.jpg

[BT Sniper]

I reccently cleaned my BBQ on the inside, cleaned out the burner too. Seems it was full of ash and what not, anyway it gets a lot hotter now and with some fire brikes placed inside I am able to get things glowing! Going to try it again this afternoon and see what can be done. I annealed another 5 gallons the other day in a couple hours or so.

Jon, I think I got it figured out how to add atleast 40 grains of potential to the CH 308 dies and with just a little luck may have a better custom design of my own soon! I'll keep you posted.

BT

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

BT,
that sounds great.
Jon

[BwBrown]

OK BT, I'll start the list for you for the about to be released .308 BT Super Dies.

1. BwBrown
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.......

[smilie=w:

[BT Sniper]

I'm working on it! We shall see. Got some interesting results but need to perfect it first to achieve repetable results before I can offer any for sale.

The 40 grains additonal potential of the CH die was a bit optimistic but we shall see. Think a truly custom BT die maybe in the future with the true potential of what a 308 die should be with better bullet shape and heavier possible bullet weights. Of course it may still be a while as I would need to do some range testing first. I'll keep you all posted for sure.

BT

[BT Sniper]

As far as annealing, I got some fire bricks and arranged them in the BBQ. It gets real HOT now and is no problem annealing bunches of 200 or more at a time.

I need a better way to remove the tarnish though and will certainly try out some of the methods posted above.

Swage on!

BT

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I hope to get to using the CH 308 dies with lighter bullets in the next couple of days.
I got a few projects done in the last 5 days that have been needing to be done.
I should load some 40's for Rifle and swage some 44 star points...Yeah I still haven't
tried the star point die yet, but ?!?? I will probably swage the 308s first.
BUT, If the sun comes out and the temp breaks 0, I should shoot the 22 hornet for Bull Shop's postal shoot.

[BT Sniper]

Bull Shop's postal shoot. ??????? Link?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Bull Shop's postal shoot !
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=98998

[BT Sniper]

WOW! I need to get out more!! I'm only two pages into that thread but it looks like a lot of fun! I imagine as I read on someone will mention the idea should spread on to us swagers too! If some one hasn't mentioned it yet I will :)

Thanks Jon

[Smokin7mm]

As far as annealing, I got some fire bricks and arranged them in the BBQ. It gets real HOT now and is no problem annealing bunches of 200 or more at a time.

I need a better way to remove the tarnish though and will certainly try out some of the methods posted above.

Swage on!

BT

I recently got a Hornady ultrasonic cleaner. From another thread was suggested using a product called Citranox. It is ment for ultrasonic cleaners and is a little cheaper per volume than the stuff hornady sells. Hornadys is 25.00/qt and the citranox I got for 40.00/gal with about 12.00 shipping. Stuff is mixed in a 100:1 solution. I used about 1/2oz in a quart of water. I through some 22lr jackets that were oven annealed and then tumbled in corn cob for hours. They still tarnished but a shinny tarnish. I figured what the heck and threw about 600 in the ultrasonic. After about 3 or 4 480 second cycles this thing were clean as a whistle inside and out. I was impressed and have now found the way I am going to clean all of my jackets.
Bret

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

this is the cheapest Cirtric I've found.
100% pure food grade powder, 10 lbs for $34 shipped
a lifetime supply for us brass cleaners at 3 to 4 tblsp per gallon of water

http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=citric

PS this is buried in the long citric acid thread in "the Kit room" section.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I added a comment to the Annealing Sticky in the Swaging section.
A photo pictorial of annealing in the wood stove
and cleaning annealed 5.7x28 cases in Hot Citric acid bath.
these have a polymer coating that gets burnt off.
I know BT was wondering how the citric acid will clean that off.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=103824

[mold maker]

http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=citric
100% food grade citric acid powder.
That's the source I used also. They were the cheapest and shipped fast.
Good folks to do business with.