Making a Trapper out of a Carbine 94

[hunter64]

I live in Northern Canada and have been looking for a Winchester Trapper 30-30 for years. They are as rare as hens teeth up here and when you do find one they want 800-1000 for it because it comes with a shorter than legal 18" barrel and since it came from the factory like that it is ok (dumb Canadian gun laws).

I want something short and handy and light as I carry it in the truck and the field when I service remote stations. I have passed up on a lot of deer during hunting season because I didn't have a rifle with me. Handguns are not allowed to be carried or hunted with up here (another dumb law).

So what I was thinking was basically making a model 55 or 64 type arrangement with an 18" barrel. I could of course just cut and modify the 94 and use the same barrel band arrangement again but I kind of want to get away from that front band if at all possible.

I remember reading in a Sam Fadala 30-30 book years ago about how to do this but I can't find the copy at the library.

Does this sound right. I would need a for-end and cap with screw and hanging tenon to get rid of the first barrel band. I would need to have the barrel milled to except the new tenon to hang it on. Then I would need a forward hanger/screw and the barrel milled again to hang it on. Cut the mag tube and cut the barrel to 18 inches.

Here are some pictures from gunbroker of a model 55. Of course the barrel would only be 18" and not 24".

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e304/1964bigfoot/front.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e304/1964bigfoot/total.jpg

I was also thinking that I could shorten the mag tube and make it flush with the for-end and get rid of the front tube hanger but of course I would be limited to only 2 or three rounds in the mag.

If anyone has Fadala's book "Winchester's 30-30:Model 94, the Rifle America Loves" and could look it up it has a picture of just this kind of a project and how to do it.

[hickstick_10]

You may want to stick with the plain 20 inch barrel.

Reason I say it is I have one of those 16 inch trappers in 30-30, depending on were in Canada you look they can be had for less then 1000 bucks.

I purchased mine in AB for 500 bucks, its neat, but for hunting and occupying a back seat of a vehicle hunting rifle, it doesn't have anything over a 20 inch 94. The factory trapper sights leave alot to be desired (very coarse blade). Plus the longer sight radius of the 20 incher does help, I dunno I just hit things more with the 20 inch 94 with the bead sights. Plus when you lay a 20 inch barrel gun beside a 16 inch barrel gun you'l see it doesn't amount to a hill of beans difference. If you hunt from a horse, then I could see a use for the trapper.

Your project sounds neat, but in the end your removing this 2 inches from the barrel. When you're done with all that expense and effort the difference will be extremely small, 2 inches looks like a big difference when your holding a tape measure to the barrel but when you lay this gun next to a factory one, its going to be hard to tell the difference, in looks and in use.

Muzzle blast is something interesting as well with the stubby barrel. And after the "WHOA look how short this gun is!!" factor wears off there's, nothing you can do with a trapper that you can't do with a standard model. Honestly those half magazine Winchesters look like they would be completely serviceable for hunting needs as is, as far as balance and handling goes, in fact I am on the look out for a nice half magazine lever gun.

I feel your pain though, it took me several years of searching in 3 provinces to find one in 30-30(wanted one since I was a kid, and only 30-30 would do). There are the occasional runs of marlin 336 with the 16 inch barrel, and I imagine you wont have to wait long for browning/winchester/miroku to come up with the 16 inch trapper again. Best of luck on the project.

Edited to add: Marlin makes an 18 inch 30-30, but it has that big loop on it.

[robertbank]

Why not watch for a used .44mag/.45Colt/454 either by Marlin (one sold recently on Gunnutz) or a Model 92 in either caliber. They sell new up here for around $630.

Take Care

Bob

[starmac]

Just from what I gather from his post he favors and wants a 30/30.

[hickstick_10]

The one nice thing the 30-30 short barrels have over the pistol caliber "trappers", is that you can buy the ammunition anywhere. Try finding 454 casull ammo at Canadian tire or a hardware store. But a man can always reload his own.

The "trapper" was a factory model, its beyond me why there are not more of them here, or at least the cheaper "Ranger compact". I always see some poor soul trying to find them in the local buy and sell, so alot of people wanted them.

[EDK]

A MARLIN 336A with 24 inch barrel and 3/4 length magazine might be a better starting point. You could trim it down pretty close to the length you want and then re-crown the barrel and put some sort of ramp front sight on it....Put either a WILLIAMS or LYMAN receiver sight on it PLUS sling swivels and be good to go.

A local pawn shop had a 336 TS with an 18.5 inch barrel that I scooped up...and they have another one in the rack for $325 that may join its sibling. So many tempting items...so little money!

I had an 1894 MARLIN in 44 cut down to 16.25 and carried it on my saddle for 20+ years. (Gave it to step son who traded it for a .264 Winchester Magnum....one of many brilliant moves on his part!) I just about have myself talked into duplicating it....d*** thing carried good on the horse or on foot.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[robertbank]

The one nice thing the 30-30 short barrels have over the pistol caliber "trappers", is that you can buy the ammunition anywhere. Try finding 454 casull ammo at Canadian tire or a hardware store. But a man can always reload his own.

The "trapper" was a factory model, its beyond me why there are not more of them here, or at least the cheaper "Ranger compact". I always see some poor soul trying to find them in the local buy and sell, so alot of people wanted them.

Agreed on the .454 but .44mag and to a lessor extent .45LC can be had at most gun shops. The former is carried by Canadian Tire locally.

I agree with you there ought to be more Trappers up here than there are. I see one come up on gunutz every so often but they go pretty fast.

To the OP you might try posting a WTB on the canadiangunutz forum and see what you get for replies. You might be surprised.

Take Care

Bob

[hunter64]

Thanks guys for your replies. The original idea was to take a scratched up 1979 year model and make it into a trapper style for easier carry. I have a model 92 in .44 mag and it is a great rifle but I thought I might as well use this beater as the crown is getting worn from rolling around someones truck.

Well I totally forgot about the Winchester Timber version and I think I am going to copy that version. This way I don't have to worry about the for-end and just how the magazine is attached to the barrel. I assume it is a piece of hard steel dove tailed into the barrel with a screw threw thru the magazine to hook it up. I can't find a parts breakdown for a Timber version so if anyone has one is that how it is attached? (Like my Marlin's)

So cut and crown the barrel and get the gunsmith to cut a dove tail at the same time. Attach the front sight again and the mag and away we go. I already have a peep sight on it that works great.



http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e304/1964bigfoot/534105m.jpg

[markinalpine]

One more thing to consider is that you will have to change your name to BUBBA!

:kidding:

Mark :bigsmyl2:

[hunter64]

One more thing to consider is that you will have to change your name to BUBBA!

:kidding:

Mark :bigsmyl2:

You mean Bubba Smith. :redneck:

[saz]

Check out this link;

http://beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/58

It is written by a fella names Marshall Stanton. I have talked to him once or twice in the past- A heck of a nice guy and pretty creative to boot. There are a bunch of other articles on there also. Check it out, there is some good reading on there.

[hunter64]

Thanks saz. That is what I was looking for. Now I have to decide if I want 4 rounds in the mag tube or 3 so I know where to cut it off at.

I wish he had said how long the mag tube was but I printed off the picture of the final product and using simple ratios I came off with a mag tube of about 11 1/2" long.

He says he can get 4 in there and laying the 30-30 rounds end for end that comes out to a hair over 10" long. So that leaves 1 1/2" for the follower and the spring which is pretty tight. I am sure the actual is probably closer to 12" as the rifle is at an angle and it is hard to measure from a picture.

Since this project is intended to be as light as possible I will probably go for a 3 in the tube configuration. After all if I get a chance at a deer within 150 yards, 4 rounds total is more than enough and are long gone if I don't connect on the first round anyway.

Most area's I need to do service in are heavily treed and you only get about 4 seconds and one shot to connect with.

[hickstick_10]

In "The Winchester Book" by George Madis, there are some excellent pictures of various types on winchester 94's in most any configuration you can think of. If you can wrangle a copy from a library, its worth it, the book is fairly expensive but worth it for eye candy,

There was also reference to some 14 inch or so 94's being shipped to Canada many years ago, I would love to find one of those.

[jlchucker]

Not long before they went out of business, Winchester was making something that I think they called a "camp carbine" or somesuch name. It had a 3/4 magazine, semipistol grip, and an 18 inch barrel. It also had that ridiculous crossbolt safety. My local gunshop had two--a 44 mag and a 30-30. I looked them over nearly every time I went to that shop, but I already had leverguns in both calibers (without the crossbolt eyesore) and passed them up. As I recall, the 44 sold well before the 30-30 did. I don't know how many of those models were made, and a quick check on Gunbroker turned up nothing. If you can find the 30-30 version, it could be just what you are looking for (except for that stupid crossbolt button safety).

[pietro]

This is a Model 92, but the principle's the same for a Model 94

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1056072/DSCN0120.JPG

I bought a forend cap, tenon, and two (2) screws from Numrich Arms, and a Chinese Milling Machine Shop (hacksaw & file).

Inlet the forend wood tip for the cap.

Mark the barrel where the tenon MUST lie to secure the cap.

Cut a female dovetail into the lower surface of the barrel for the tenon there, via making a few shallow hacksaw cuts to not quite the dovetail depth needed, then using the file (triangular) to shape/widen the joint until the tenon will slide in snugly.

Shorten the mag tube to your druthers from the rear, and cut the mag spring so that it's free length is 1-1/2 as long as the finished mag tube.

I used a screw to secure the front end of my mag tube, but a Win M92 cap has a flange to accept a special magazine cap to retain everything.

Shorten/crown the barrel.



Post pics. :bigsmyl2:


.

[hunter64]

Pietro: That is exactly what I am going to do but I need to have the mag tube slightly longer for the 30-30 rounds. I am going to have 3 rounds in the mag and will probably cut the tube to 11 inches as 3 rounds of 30-30 measure 7.5 inches and that will give me plenty of room. I might cut the tube to 12 inches and duct tape the tube to the barrel and see how I like the look and reduce the mag spring to see if it will work and then work from there till I decide the length I want. Then do as you say with a dovetail and cut and crown the barrel.

[pietro]

FWIW, There's an excellent photo tutorial, on hand cutting a barrel dovetail, in our Gunsmithing Section's Sticky:

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=33233

.

[kingstrider]

I've had a couple of 16" 30/30s and they handle really well for the type of woods where I hunt. Unless you already have the gun, I'd second starting with a Marlin, preferably one with the end cap like a 336A which would be easier to cut down than one with a barrel band and foreend band.

[NHlever]

Not long before they went out of business, Winchester was making something that I think they called a "camp carbine" or somesuch name. It had a 3/4 magazine, semipistol grip, and an 18 inch barrel. It also had that ridiculous crossbolt safety. My local gunshop had two--a 44 mag and a 30-30. I looked them over nearly every time I went to that shop, but I already had leverguns in both calibers (without the crossbolt eyesore) and passed them up. As I recall, the 44 sold well before the 30-30 did. I don't know how many of those models were made, and a quick check on Gunbroker turned up nothing. If you can find the 30-30 version, it could be just what you are looking for (except for that stupid crossbolt button safety).

Yes, they called those models "Pack Rifles". I had one in .44 mag that was fun to shoot, and foolishly let it go. I have a Trail's End .44 now, but I still liked that Pack Rifle version better.

[jlchucker]

Yes, they called those models "Pack Rifles". I had one in .44 mag that was fun to shoot, and foolishly let it go. I have a Trail's End .44 now, but I still liked that Pack Rifle version better.

That's right--they did call them a "pack rifle". I really thought about buying one, but foolishly didn't. Looking back on it I wish I had snapped up the one in 30-30 that lingered at my favorite gunshop. That model was just like what Hunter64 seems to be trying to create. They must not have made very many of them--either that, or those that got them are keeping them. I haven't seen any listed for sale anywhere.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I have one of those "pack" rifles in 30-30, and like it very much. 2/3 magazine, 18" barrel. D & T for scope, still has a half cock, but with a push button cross safety that can be ignored. I sent it to a BR smith who tuned the transfer block trigger, I minimally glassed the wood and metal and made a minor "McPherson" adjustment or two. VOILA !

It usually touches 3 of 5 at 100 yards, and I keep it set up for Sierra's 125 HP. They are in the market still (used) and reasonably priced too. . Get a search picture and drool ! BvT


Oh Yes! The barrel is a bit larger in diameter from receiver to muzzle also.

[hunter64]

Baron: Can you do me a favor and measure how long your 2/3 magazine is?

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Yepper. I'll post later today. BvT

[Baron von Trollwhack]

FWIW to viewers, the pack rifle barrel measured 17 5/16" from the receiver to muzzle and the mag tube 12 1/8" from receiver to end of the mag cap. A handy rifle indeed.

BvT

[robertbank]

hunter64 you might want to make sure your gun will be legal after you cut it back. It seems to me I recall reading that you cannot go below 18" when cutting back an existing barrel. If the guns come from the factory as 16" you are ok but not if you cut it below 16". Given our goofy gun laws I think it might be worth checking out. On the other hand who would notice... just saying.

Take Care

Bob

[Baron von Trollwhack]

The US standard is a measurement from the face of the bolt to the end of the muzzle. Thus my measurement showed a bit less than 18" as I measured from the edge of the receiver. Canada different, perhaps?

Bvt

[hunter64]

hunter64 you might want to make sure your gun will be legal after you cut it back. It seems to me I recall reading that you cannot go below 18" when cutting back an existing barrel. If the guns come from the factory as 16" you are ok but not if you cut it below 16". Given our goofy gun laws I think it might be worth checking out. On the other hand who would notice... just saying.

Take Care

Bob

Your correct Bob. 18" min unless it came from the factory shorter (really dumb).

Baron. Thanks for the measurement of the mag tube, I figured it would be about 12-13 inches max. Some firearms inspectors measure from the face of the bolt and some measure the barrel to the start of the receiver.

I am going to cut mine at 18 1/2 inches just to be sure and the mag tube at 12 1/2 or there abouts. My main goal was to get rid of the front barrel band and shorten the barrel slightly. Will 1 1/2 inches off the barrel make any difference in the field, no. Will getting rid of the barrel band, you bet. No more stringing shots from the front barrel band.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Try to get a copy of the McPherson "accurizing" book, as he goes into substantial detail about accuracy improvement on these type guns. He is an expert. My pack rifle for example now has about 1/32" fore/aft snug movement in the forearm, and a thin bit of live rubber mat material between the mag tube and the barrel for vibration control. Beside the J bullet shooting quality , 10 grains of 2400 under a .311/31141 will do an inch or better at 100 yards. I put a clamp on front sling gizmo on the magazine tube and a butstock stud for carrying convenience. Bvt

[45r]

I had my marlin 35rem cut to 16 and 1/4 inchs.Shoots ragged hole groups at 60 yards.If I was in Canada I'd use my Marlin Texan in 30-30 with 18 inch barrel.The shorter barrel does come in handy when you want a rifle to be light and short as possible.I use the 16 inch rifle the most.