Contender/Encore Owners WARNING!

[Old Ironsights]

According to the letter below from the Columbus District Office (covering OH &IN) you can INSTALL a shoulder stock to your TC PISTOL, and all is good & legal (as long as it’s 26”OAL & 16” BBL) But Woe Betide You if you ever decide to switch your stock back to a pistol grip. That’s a Felony. Doesn’t matter if it was bought as a Pistol. It’s “not allowed”.

Basically, you can add a stock to your (16"+) pistol, but if you take it off again, they can come for you.

Here is the "Final Word" in the exchange I had with them:

The NRA and TC have been apprised.

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From: Specht, Margaret D. [mailto:Margaret.D.Specht@usdoj.gov]
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 1:39 PM
Cc: Fisher, Nena R.; Lambert, Marcia F.; Vines, Therese L.
Subject: RE: Recall: Thompson Center Encore/Contender Pistols


If you look at the definition of "firearm" under the National Firearms Act (27 CFR 479.11), you see that for the purposes of the National Firearms Act, a firearm includes "... (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length."

If you add a stock to the Thompson Contender or Encore, you would be making that pistol a rifle -- a legal rifle as the barrel would be 16" as required and the overall length would be 26" as required. Note that in the definition of "firearm" under the NFA there is nothing about a weapon made from a pistol, just a weapon made from a rifle. Once you've made the Contender or Encore into a legal rifle, you cannot then make it into a pistol again without registration under the NFA because it would be considered a weapon made from a rifle. So, you can take the stock back off, but you would have to register the firearm as an NFA weapon in order to do that.

I checked with our Firearms Technology Branch in Washington, DC, to be sure I was giving you proper information, and they concurred with the above interpretation. If you would like to call me, you may. My cell
phone number is 219-405-3692.

Margaret D. Specht
Industry Operations Investigator

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Be VERRY careful out there guys.

[versifier]

I think she's full of....fertilizer. If I remember correctly, there was a big flap about that when they first came out with the carbine barrels, and the BATF ruled that they were legal. If they weren't, then they would not be allowed to sell them. I cannot remember the details of the case, but I bet if you inquire at the NRA, you'll get the straight info. Don't you just love underpaid bureaucrats playing god? :???:

[AZ-Stew]

There was also a court case. In it the BATF tried to argue that if a person had a Contender with a legal 16 inch barrel and a shoulder stock, they'd be within the law, but the gun had to be outlawed because it allowed the owner to easily substitute a shorter (10") barrel, thereby making it an illegal stocked pistol.

When the judge asked, "But why would anyone want to do that with a single-shot pistol?", the BATF was speechless, so the judge dismissed the case.

Here we go again. Another two-bit beaurocrat trying to prove her importance, with no experience or common sense to rely upon. This is precisely why we have to be DAMNED careful who we vote for.

And I'm sorry if I offend, but this is one case where a "wag" is entirely inappropriate. It deserves not only a full attack bark, but probably some biting, as well.

Regards,

Stew

[Jon K]

How can the gun be registered Twice? Here in the Republic of California, the gun gets registered as a pistol, when purchased. :confused:

[Old Ironsights]

Well, the point of all this is - the people making these interpretations are the people with the Guns. And if she isn't just blowing smoke, and the DC Office really agrees with her interpretation, there could be serious consequences to TC & TC owners.

Doesn't do you any good to win in court AFTER you've been arrested and re-mortgaged your house just to fight the stupid interpretation. You've already been publically humiliated & are out the money.

What's most worrisome is that simply owning a TC Pistol could be considered Probable Cause to investigate for violation of the Title 26 Tax Code (paying the $200 registration/makers fee).

Versifier: The problem isn't in turning your Pistol into a Carbine - That's "legal". It's in turning your carbine BACK into a pistol. It's nit-picking the NFA, but that's what's happened. The NFA has no wording preventing anyone from turning a Pistol into a Rifle. What is "illegal" is turning a Rifle into a Pistol - and they are saying that once you put a stock on your pistol you have, in their eyes, made a rifle that can not legally be changed back without a Tax Stamp.

[MT Gianni]

A Supreme Court case decided this in the 80's. The real question is why on earth would you ask the BATF anything. Gianni.

[Old Ironsights]

Because someone asked me, and I don't own a TC - so I am not at risk by the Ruling/cannot incriminate myself.

If SCOTUS ruled on this, why do the Field Offices still respond this way?

Oh, and I'm researching the SCOTUS case now, but it appears that the case covered/approved ADING the stock (which we know is legal) but did not address taking it off again.

[45nut]

"Another two-bit beaurocrat trying to prove her importance, with no experience or common sense to rely upon"

Exactly. just the same as congress passing laws because they are in session regardless of the validity of such a law,,,mere "busy work".
I would suggest a bi annual session instead of full time,,,with pay rates dropping to reflect the time off.
The more time they have to create bogus laws,,the more bogus laws they will pass.
"idle hands" and all that.

[Old Ironsights]

The text of U.S. v. Thompson/Center Arms Co., 504 U.S. 505, 112 S.Ct. 2102, 119 L.Ed.2d 308, 60 USLW 4480, 69 A.F.T.R.2d 92-1493 (U.S., Jun 08, 1992) (NO. 91-164) concerns itself with the creation of carbines from pistols and whether such carbines/kits are taxable under NFA.

It does NOT concern itself with whether or not the reverse ("creating" a pistol from said carbine conversion) is taxable under NFA.

So as far as I can see, the decision in this case is immaterial to to the position held by the Columbus Office.

If you want a copy of the decision, PM and I will email it.

[Bullshop]

Wouldnt the potencial problem be solved by just having two frames, one that stays a pistal and one that stays a rifle?
What in the case of a purchase made by someone buying a used TC pistal say at a gun show but it was formerly registerd as a rifle but unknown to the new buyer.
How is anyone to know the prior history of each peace?
If you buy a new frame only how is it registerd?
My Bible tells of this type of stupidity in end times, when nothing makes sence and things seem completely backward.
BIC/BS

[danski26]

Sounds like it's an un-enforcable law. I will not lose one wink of sleep over it.

[Stray Round]

Hmmmm, just don't exchange the pistol grip with the stock in front of an ATF agent and you will be fine.

"Who me, put a stock where the pistol grip should be, nah no way" and "I did not have sex with that woman" nor "did I inhale." Never underestimate the power of denial.

[TCLouis]

the doj person suffers from a mixed case of cranial rectal insertion and terminal stupidity.

It scares me that someone that stupid is a place of power over firearms ownership.

I'd tell what I really think but it might come across too strong.

[ourway77]

So changing a pistol frame to a rifle is legal but not to be changed back to a pistol, the way I see it. If you don't tell I won't! I'm sure no one in their right mind is going to do as they want you to do

[ron brooks]

Alas, what is going to happen when the BATF comes to your home and with a search warrant and starts tearing the place apart and does find your rifle stock, and/or your pistol stock, then you will be guilty of being able to do it. You might win the court case, but has been mentioned above, after the house has a second mortage and your life has been ruined.

Ron

[Old Ironsights]

I just heard back from Stephen Halbrook (who tried & won the 92 SCOTUS case against the ATF).

He's going to talk to the ATF Technical Branch. Again. :cool:

[Lugnutz]

From what I have read, If you convert pistol to carbine no problem. But the other way around big problem. Once you buy it as a pistol its registered as such. When you put the shoulder stock on it, it is not again registered. Now if its registered as a long gun and you shorten the stock to a pistol grip, then its a problem.

Here in the state of Misery I have never had anyone check any firearm to determine if it is a rifle or pistol or even if its mine for that matter.

[Lucky Joe]

Alas, what is going to happen when the BATF comes to your home and with a search warrant and starts tearing the place apart and does find your rifle stock, and/or your pistol stock, then you will be guilty of being able to do it. You might win the court case, but has been mentioned above, after the house has a second mortage and your life has been ruined.

Ron

That rifle or pistol stock (what ever the case may be) is on hand until I can purchase the frame to mount it on.

[JohnH]

Hmmmmm....let's see, how did the song go....

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when your always afraid
Step put of line the man come and take you away.....

Funny, I haven't heard of any mass arrestings of Contender/Encore owners, Nor have I heard of the BATF camping out on someones lawn for converting their once pistol into a rifle and back again....
Somehow, methinks the BATF has better things to do, bigger fish to fry. It ain't like there is a run of armed robberies and murders being committed with TC's. Any city, county or state government would look like idiots prosecuting the likes of any Contender/Encore owner over the symantics of the NFA. There is not a DA in the country willing to persue that.

Have a beer, Lighten up, Go shoot your TC ;)

[Scrounger]

Hmmmmm....let's see, how did the song go....

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when your always afraid
Step put of line the man come and take you away.....

Funny, I haven't heard of any mass arrestings of Contender/Encore owners, Nor have I heard of the BATF camping out on someones lawn for converting their once pistol into a rifle and back again....
Somehow, methinks the BATF has better things to do, bigger fish to fry. It ain't like there is a run of armed robberies and murders being committed with TC's. Any city, county or state government would look like idiots prosecuting the likes of any Contender/Encore owner over the symantics of the NFA. There is not a DA in the country willing to persue that.

Have a beer, Lighten up, Go shoot your TC ;)

California had a law(?) that all Contenders had to be registered as pistols, regardless of barrel length, but I believe they have come to their senses and relented now.

[Bigjohn]

Most esteemed Gentlemen of the Silver Stream;

I have read this debate with interest and not being a TC owner, must lament the fact that the beauacrats are still seeking other ways to make our lives a misery.

It is unfortunate, that even when we express our displeasure with their bosses; who may fully condone their activities; at the ballot boxes, we can not even dent their facade. Hence the status quo continues and they continue to come up with more BS designed to wear us down.

IMHO, they will eventually achieve their aims as all this BS continues to discourage new shooters from taking up the sport. I try as hard as I can to encourage new shooters to take up the sport.

It would appear to be a case of "Mind over matter"; If we don't mind, then WE won't matter in the least.

Well, thats my tuppence on the subject,

John.

[357maximum]

When a frame leaves TC it is either a pistol or a rifle...period...call them with your serial number and they will tell you...seriously....


My encore is was and will always be a pistol and is registered as such with the state of Michigan.....IF....IF... I were to put a stock on it with my 15 inch barrel it would become an A.O.W (any other weapon)in the eye of the BATFE and would require a 200.00 tax,,,however I would not do this....now if I have the same buttstock and add a 16 inch or longer barrel and the OAL rule is met it is technically a rifle in the eyes of the BATF...however the state of michigan still sees that frame as a pistol...so does TC...as per their SN records show....so technically it is never a rifle to anyone other than the BATFE and while it was in rifle form (alledgedly) the Batfe has no say about it as long as I am not committing a crime with it....because as of yet we do not have to federally license a single shot rifle...that may change however now that the balance of DEM/REP has changed...

Keep your ears to the ground, support the NRA, and for pistol petes' sake,,,write a few letters and make a few phone calls to your "elected" officials to let them know how/and what you stand for and believe...

Michael

[garandsrus]

Michael,

If you put a 15" barrel and a stock on a TC, I think it would be a "Short Barrelled Rifle" which Michigan does not allow with or without a tax stamp...

John

[357maximum]

Michael,

If you put a 15" barrel and a stock on a TC, I think it would be a "Short Barrelled Rifle" which Michigan does not allow with or without a tax stamp...

John

True story...thats one reason why I would not do it..plus I would not want to to begin with, she is purdy damn deadly as a pistol...why mess with perfection?...

.we also cannot have silencers...which is a pity...my neighbors would likely take up a collection and buy it for me as well as pay the feds for their paperwork...that I would like to have around to play with....just for shins and giggles if nothing more...

Michael