overpressure issues H110 when underloaded

[BackWoods Billy]

I just read this on a thread and could not find anymore info.I have always used 2400 in the past but lately been playing around with the H110 for my .44 mag loads. Is there a problem with more then the boolit not clearing the barrel with a light load of H110. I'm using a 5 5/8" and a 7.5" SBHs.
Thanks.

[475/480]

NEVER go below 5% of the minimum load when using H110,light loads of H110 can/do create pressure problems.

Sean

[warf73]

Right off Hodgdon web site. http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp


For those loads listed where a starting load is not shown, start 10% below the suggested maximum load and then approach maximums carefully, watching for any sign of pressure (difficult extraction, cratered and flattened or blown primers, and unusual recoil). H110 and Winchester 296 loads should not be reduced more than 3%.

Reduce H110 and Winchester 296 loads 3% and work up from there. H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders. DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%.

[44man]

Been using both powders since they came out and only had one problem. We were working loads starting at book minimum for a .454 and most loads until max would have the boolit and powder blow into the barrel without the powder burning.
I had to keep a brass rod on the bench.
By opening pockets to LP or using cut down .460 brass, all problems went away and even a standard LP would light off all loads but the mag primers were more accurate.
Poor ignition is the problem, not that the powder is hard to light. I feel it has something to do with air space and primer pressure where powder can move too far from the heat. This is compounded by bullets moving out of the brass and increasing air space. A SR mag primer can move a bullet pretty far down the bore without any powder burning.
I have used the Fed 150 primer with 296 since the early 80's and have worked loads for accuracy with every bullet/boolit in both the .44 and .45 Colt, starting with starting book loads without ever a failure and in the end, the standard primer was always more accurate because it does not move the boolit before ignition like a mag primer will.
So the question is, is primer pressure the reason for failures with starting loads? Is lack of case tension along with too much primer pressure the cause of poor ignition?
Crimp alone has no bearing on this because I have tested over and over, even using no crimp so I had to shoot single shot and nothing has failed and even no crimp was accurate.
I will not go to the Fed 155 until I get to large cases like the .454 (LP), .475 and .500's because accuracy increases, yet the 150 will still light off every load.
Hodgdon is correct with the warnings because of the disparity in loading practices. Those that open brass more for soft boolits and insist on mag primers can get in trouble with reduced loads.
My understanding is that Fed factory .44 loads now use a Fed 150 primer. Strange that I have known that for over 30 years! [smilie=s:
If loading practice means you NEED max loads of either powder for ignition, be aware that accuracy still suffers. Even in the .454 with SR mag primers, accuracy does not come near LP mag primers with worked loads.
The main problem will be fast shooting with a stuck boolit---goodbye gun!
Understanding H110 and 296 with ignition will never, ever give you a problem and I would not ever be without them.

[BackWoods Billy]

Well thank you.All I've been using is the CCI 350 primers in the .44s. So the pressure comes with the stuck boolit in the barrel right?? I'm sure I could tell with the loads I use of the bench.The only time that one got stuck on me was in a .45 ACP with a Fed 150 primer and lucky I felt it. Ever since then I really make sure there's powder in the case.
I'm happy I saw that last night and ask the question. Think I'll start using standard primers and see if they shoot better for me. Thanks for the help.

[44man]

Well thank you.All I've been using is the CCI 350 primers in the .44s. So the pressure comes with the stuck boolit in the barrel right?? I'm sure I could tell with the loads I use of the bench.The only time that one go stuck on me was in a .45 ACP with a Fed 150 primer and lucky I felt it. Ever since then I really make sure there's powder in the case.
I'm happy I saw that last night and ask the question. Think I'll start using standard primers and see if they shoot better for me. Thanks for the help.
They really do work but you need a hard boolit and good case tension. But that also goes for the magnum primer and maybe more so.
Those that open brass a lot so soft lead boolits are not sized do create a lot more problems. The thought is that a hard crimp will promote powder burn but the crimp will not open all the way and THAT will size a boolit too.
Some think a crimp will jump open before boolit exit--- not to be! The boolit seals pressure in the brass and only the boolit can roll open the crimp. Soft boolits can not do that.
The revolver is a very special machine and you need to feed it properly.

[BackWoods Billy]

"The revolver is a very special machine and you need to feed it properly"
I LIKE THAT>>>>>

[AlaskaMike]

NEVER go below 5% of the minimum load when using H110,light loads of H110 can/do create pressure problems.


The danger is not one of excessive pressure--it is a danger of squibs.

[fecmech]

And the squib itself not dangerous, it's the round you fire into the barrel with the squib still in it that is dangerous! Alaska Mike has it right, when you have a squib you don't have pressure.

[462]

"The danger is not one of excessive pressure--it is a danger of squibs."

Fortunately, I've experienced only one squib. It was in a .357 Blackhawk with a Lee 358-158 RF and a published starting load of W-296. Heard a pop rather than a bang. Stopped shooting and went home. The boolit was lodged in the forcing cone and the remaining powder was one, solid piece.

Examination of the other cartridges revealed rather weak crimps.

Subsequent loads with heavier crimps have performed as flawlessly.

[Old Caster]

Years ago I shot a 22 Hornet in a Contender in matches. The rules were that you couldn't let part of the gun touch the ground and it had to rest on you somehow. Everyone else shot in the Creedmore position but I did a split and set the gun on my thigh and put my right hand under the grip on the ground and shot it with my left hand with my head upside down looking through the scope. I needed light loads so it wouldn't bop me in the head. I used less and less of H110 until I had misfires. With a 52 grain Sierra match bullet that was right at 7 grains with a very accurate load at 7.4 that never misfired. What would happen is the powder would burn but not explode and the powder would turn into crud like honeycomb in the brass. It was sometimes necessary to push the bullet out but most of the time it went somewhere down range but certainly not to the 100 yard target. The brass had to be cleaned with something like a nail to scrape out the mess.

[Snyd]

The danger is not one of excessive pressure--it is a danger of squibs.

I thought that detonation was a danger with H110. That when the powder is not given the proper environment to "burn" in, it "explodes" creating excessive pressure even though there is less powder than a max or normal load. That too little powder in too large of a space actually changes the characteristics of how the powder ignites. That it "explodes" rather than "burns". Can anyone shed any light on this?

[Whitworth]

Well thank you.All I've been using is the CCI 350 primers in the .44s. So the pressure comes with the stuck boolit in the barrel right?? I'm sure I could tell with the loads I use of the bench.The only time that one got stuck on me was in a .45 ACP with a Fed 150 primer and lucky I felt it. Ever since then I really make sure there's powder in the case.
I'm happy I saw that last night and ask the question. Think I'll start using standard primers and see if they shoot better for me. Thanks for the help.

I saw that thread on that forum. The poster claimed that H110 and 296 were "scary" powders to use. I had quite the laugh!

[Lloyd Smale]

like was allready posted the trick to using 110/296 and even aa9 is good case tension, good crimps and a good primer like a cci350. It can be slighly downloaded if all of these criteria are met but anymore i dont fool with downloading it as theres better powders then those 3 for doing it. 2400 is your friend for medium mag loads.

[44man]

There are things I would never do in a rifle or single shot. If the boolit moves out and stops, then the powder lights, the boolit is a bore obstruction. Had it happen in the Swede with a normal middle of the road load of 4831 (46 gr). The long throat of the Swede can't hold a bullet against the rifling. My friend also had it in his Swede. We had to increase the charge and that ruined the fine accuracy so I went to Varget, seems to be better. No rifle damage but the primers were gone and the bolts had to be beat open with a mallet. Head space, etc, still checked out.
A scary rifle would be the Weatherby mags with the long free bore. Never, ever under load a slow powder. Other factors of case design and the strength of the actions can save you.
It can happen in a revolver but the gap will bleed out the pressure so none of us can say if it is more common with reduced loads of slow powder. Those that go off might have spikes of pressure we don't know about. Most will be a squib with no powder burn.
The bottom line is that you do not want a bullet or boolit to move before ignition. If each boolit moves a different amount before ignition, you have different case volume for each shot. Where did the accuracy go? This is why I use case tension and a hot primer with lower primer pressure.
Yes, you can use softer boolits with faster powders that peak before boolit movement but then you have to deal with boolit slump, skidding, lack of case tension or sized boolits when seating and deformation along with leading.
This raises a question of money because a lot of fellas use pure with tin and that gets very expensive.
So where does the mag primer come into it's own? When the case gets large enough to absorb the pressure before it pushes on the boolit. Larger calibers also have heavier boolits and a heavier powder charge.

[AlaskaMike]

I thought that detonation was a danger with H110. That when the powder is not given the proper environment to "burn" in, it "explodes" creating excessive pressure even though there is less powder than a max or normal load. That too little powder in too large of a space actually changes the characteristics of how the powder ignites. That it "explodes" rather than "burns". Can anyone shed any light on this?

Detonation, or "SEE" (Secondary Explosive Effect) is a separate issue and from all reports seems to be controversial in that no lab has been successful in duplicating it.

In practical use, H110/296 isn't at much risk for detonation because its use calls for the majority of the case to be filled. I also strongly suspect (but have no evidence to back this up) that pressure plays a large part in it. H110/296 seems to require substantial pressure to properly ignite vs. other powders. This is illustrated by the need for well-sized cases providing good bullet pull, strong crimps, and magnum primers.

Also, in all the warnings I've seen from Hodgdon, not one has been about excessive pressure or detonation--they've all dealt with the issue of squibs.

[felix]

Maybe an above sentence should read: Detonation, or "SEE" (Secondary Explosive Effect) is NOT a separate issue. From all reports it seems to be controversial in that no lab has been successful in REPORTING it.
... felix

[AlaskaMike]

Well, I wrote that it was a separate issue because the specific problem H110/296 is KNOWN for when downloading more than 3/5/10% (depending on the manual your data comes from), is squibs, not Detonation/SEE. From that perspective it's a separate issue.

[44man]

Maybe an above sentence should read: Detonation, or "SEE" (Secondary Explosive Effect) is NOT a separate issue. From all reports it seems to be controversial in that no lab has been successful in REPORTING it.
... felix
This is true and most of us can shoot a lifetime without it, even with wrong loads. But it only takes once to learn.
I have a hard time believing "detonation."
I still feel it is a bore obstruction from a moved and stopped bullet. Now whether the gas pressure reverses in the case after hitting the obstruction is up in the air. Either way, pressure goes beyond brass and sometimes steel limits.
We know more pressure makes powder burn faster but whether it explodes or just creates more pressure that can't escape is nothing anyone could explain. All I know is that it can and does happen.
I don't know if it can happen in a revolver with the gap but I do know a boolit can leave the case, luckily in most cases the powder does not light. But you don't dare shoot another behind it or you will destroy the gun. That should make one think, what if the boolit went into the bore and the powder DOES light off?
What if the mag primer has so much pressure it just pops the boolit into the bore before ignition and it really does light off?
The saving grace is that most boolit movement is small and all it hurts is accuracy from small changes in case capacity.
All I know is that years and years of testing and shooting the .44, mag primers ALWAYS opened groups. You can crimp very hard and it will not cure poor case tension.
Give it a thought though, with less primer pressure, you do not need such a tight boolit, just even from shot to shot. The more pressure a primer has, the tighter the boolit must be.

[Bass Ackward]

So where does the mag primer come into it's own? When the case gets large enough to absorb the pressure before it pushes on the boolit. Larger calibers also have heavier boolits and a heavier powder charge.


Ehhhhhhhhhh.............. not complete.

Primer choice is just as much a question of case neck tension which means that bullet diameter and case anneal play into it.

I ran tests sizing 44 Mag brass and Win 296 down from .427 to .410. What happened was that the "perfect" primer changed as case neck tension Increased. Elmer believed that magnum primers blew groups. And at .421 where he advocated sizing, I achieved the same results. But as I went on down, The primer of choice flipped again and the Magnum primer excelled.

So what I found with my brass was that from .000 to .002 case neck tension, a Mag primer was the best. As you dropped further a standard primer came in and then as you went on down, a magnum primer came back.

So I think that dies and bullet sizing diameter play the biggest roles in primer selection. And a person that sizes differently may find that Fed 150s blow groups.

[44man]

Ehhhhhhhhhh.............. not complete.

Primer choice is just as much a question of case neck tension which means that bullet diameter and case anneal play into it.

I ran tests sizing 44 Mag brass and Win 296 down from .427 to .410. What happened was that the "perfect" primer changed as case neck tension Increased. Elmer believed that magnum primers blew groups. And at .421 where he advocated sizing, I achieved the same results. But as I went on down, The primer of choice flipped again and the Magnum primer excelled.

So what I found with my brass was that from .000 to .002 case neck tension, a Mag primer was the best. As you dropped further a standard primer came in and then as you went on down, a magnum primer came back.

So I think that dies and bullet sizing diameter play the biggest roles in primer selection. And a person that sizes differently may find that Fed 150s blow groups.
Elmer was correct! :holysheep
But you kept making the brass smaller but what did you do to your favorite soft boolits?
Did any boolit withstand being sized to the next caliber down? Maybe you started to need primer pressure to upset your boolits! [smilie=l:
That is not a valid test unless you use tough jacketed bullets. You are changing all the cast boolits. There is a limit to case tension with lead boolits.

[Bass Ackward]

That is not a valid test unless you use tough jacketed bullets. You are changing all the cast boolits. There is a limit to case tension with lead boolits.



Boy do you never get it right. Bullets used qualify as rocks and jacketed.

Next!

[Bass Ackward]

That is not a valid test unless you use tough jacketed bullets. You are changing all the cast boolits. There is a limit to case tension with lead boolits.



Boy do you never get it right. Bullets used qualify as rocks and jacketed.

I did that to remove bullet re-sizing from the equation.

So the test is still valid. My conclusion is the same. That's why you can see different recommendations on primer.

Next!

[44man]

Boy do you never get it right. Bullets used qualify as rocks and jacketed.

I did that to remove bullet re-sizing from the equation.

So the test is still valid. My conclusion is the same. That's why you can see different recommendations on primer.

Next!
Now Bass, behave! :kidding:
You know I have worked with case tension from light to heavy for years and as long as tension was even, all would group but they could not be mixed. I also worked with primers with each case tension and in every case, the standard primer was better in the .44. The change in case tension dictated the POI at the target. Looser fits would hit 10" away from tighter fits but both groups would be the same size.
The same was true for crimps. I shot thousands of rounds single shot with no crimp and they grouped as well as anything else. As crimp increased, groups stayed the same until the crimp ruined either the tension or brass.
In no case did a primer change increase accuracy.
Then I tested the standard primer against the mag in bitter cold and the standard still out shot the mag. I shot the .44 in Ohio in way below zero, blizzard conditions with out a failure or loss of accuracy. I have had wet gloves freeze to the gun yet I hit what I wanted and shot tiny groups.
55 years of testing every single thing with the .44 was not a waste of time, I learned a lot.
What I do now works every single time with any .44 mag unless the gun itself has issues and that is very rare. The only bad .44's I have seen were the DW's during the bad period when barrels pointed sideways out of the frame. (They still grouped, but not where aimed. They needed a long windage slide.)
Something is flawed with your testing. I left nothing to chance I MEASURED seating pressure, I even have special BR dies for the .44 that uses collars.
In 55 years a mag primer has never shot as good as a standard.

[Bass Ackward]

Something is flawed with your testing. I left nothing to chance I MEASURED seating pressure, I even have special BR dies for the .44 that uses collars.
In 55 years a mag primer has never shot as good as a standard.


If there was one super accurate caliber, no other could be sold. If one primer were to be that vastly superior, then every ammunition company would want to load it since their biggest margins are from ammo, not guns.

So surely after fiftyyears, no other primer could be sold, if you ascertains were true.

And I made the dies. Don't trust the slop in the collars. Evidently, you do.

[44man]

If there was one super accurate caliber, no other could be sold. If one primer were to be that vastly superior, then every ammunition company would want to load it since their biggest margins are from ammo, not guns.

So surely after fiftyyears, no other primer could be sold, if you ascertains were true.

And I made the dies. Don't trust the slop in the collars. Evidently, you do.
How do you explain Federal using standard primers in factory loads?
NO, you did not make my collar dies. They were made by a reputable BR die maker.
The mag primer is superior in larger cases.
Each primer has a position. I use both when they are needed and not when they fail.

[Bass Ackward]

How do you explain Federal using standard primers in factory loads?
NO, you did not make my collar dies. They were made by a reputable BR die maker.
The mag primer is superior in larger cases.
Each primer has a position. I use both when they are needed and not when they fail.


Federal is going to at least try to use a primer that it makes first right?

I know you pride yourself on 60,000 rounds. Consider that in 50 years manufacturers have probably shot 60,000 rounds in 60,000 revolvers to develop their loads for popular calibers.

One more point, if the 150 was king, why would Federal make "Match" primers? Remember that the same company that makes Federal primers also makes CCI. And Federal isn't even their top selling brand.

[jwp475]

How do you explain Federal using standard primers in factory loads?NO, you did not make my collar dies. They were made by a reputable BR die maker.
The mag primer is superior in larger cases.
Each primer has a position. I use both when they are needed and not when they fail.

Where did you come up with that tidbit of information? I'd like to see some collaboration

[RobS]

http://www.ammo-sale.com/proddetail.asp?prod=23843

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http://www.ammo-sale.com/proddetail.asp?prod=15413

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http://www.myhuntnstuff.com/remington-magnum-federal-240gr-hishok-jacketed-hollow-point-p-15779.html



Look under primer number in the description

[Frank]

Speer's manual for 44 Rem. Mag and 45 Colt (Ruger) says use magnum primers with all powders they list in the manual. So it's good to know it's OK to use standard primers. But my results differ. For .45 Colt in Ruger does best with Fed155 and WLP. But the .475 with Fed155 beats out WLP. CCI300 wins out with 44 mag though.

[44man]

http://www.ammo-sale.com/proddetail.asp?prod=23843

http://www.ammo-sale.com/proddetail.asp?prod=23842

http://www.ammo-sale.com/proddetail.asp?prod=15413

http://www.priceinsanity.com/servlet/the-1067032/Federal-Cartridge-C44A-44/Detail

http://www.myhuntnstuff.com/remington-magnum-federal-240gr-hishok-jacketed-hollow-point-p-15779.html



Look under primer number in the description
Thank you Rob. Frank is also correct, the CCI 300 works just fine too.
Now the .45 Colt is borderline and I have shot some fine groups with the WW primer but still prefer either the 150 or 300 primers.
The .475 and up will need a mag primer but only for accuracy because they will all still light off with a standard LP primer. Even the 45-70 revolver will shoot decent with a standard LP primer but the mag is more accurate.
Rem primers also are very good.

[dale2242]

Interesting. With all that being said, I just bought 1K Winchester WLP primers.
On the box it says Large Pistol, for standard OR magnum loads. Go figure.
Someone explain why I need standard AND magnum primers if Wichester uses one primer for both applications.
Does this mean these primers are Magnum primers and it is OK to use magnum primers for all applications?
My intended use for these will be 45ACP, 45LC and lighter 44 Mag loads. I will stick with the Fed 155s for my heavy 296 loads in the 44 Mag, at least until I`ve used them all....dale

[Bass Ackward]

Interesting. With all that being said, I just bought 1K Winchester WLP primers.
On the box it says Large Pistol, for standard OR magnum loads. Go figure.
Someone explain why I need standard AND magnum primers if Wichester uses one primer for both applications.
Does this mean these primers are Magnum primers and it is OK to use magnum primers for all applications?
My intended use for these will be 45ACP, 45LC and lighter 44 Mag loads. I will stick with the Fed 155s for my heavy 296 loads in the 44 Mag, at least until I`ve used them all....dale


Winchester only does that with their large pistol primers and they use them like that cause all their powders are balls. They are a longer duration burn but not as hot as a true magnum primer. So they are tweeners.

I use them in everything you mention especially when there is free space in the case. Regardless of the case capacity, if you fill it up with powder and bullet, you don't need all the heat.

[44man]

Interesting. With all that being said, I just bought 1K Winchester WLP primers.
On the box it says Large Pistol, for standard OR magnum loads. Go figure.
Someone explain why I need standard AND magnum primers if Wichester uses one primer for both applications.
Does this mean these primers are Magnum primers and it is OK to use magnum primers for all applications?
My intended use for these will be 45ACP, 45LC and lighter 44 Mag loads. I will stick with the Fed 155s for my heavy 296 loads in the 44 Mag, at least until I`ve used them all....dale
I am not quite sure where the WW primer fits between a standard and mag primer. I feel it is in between but more towards the mag end.
It was too hot for the ACP (Pressure?) Worked decent in the .45 Colt but opened groups in the .44.
Yes, sure, you can use a mag primer for anything and it is only going to be the accuracy you can get that will alter that.
This is the difference---BANG or hit what you shoot at! Some loads do not need sights on the gun. Point and make noise. :bigsmyl2:

[Frank]

44man:
This is the difference---BANG or hit what you shoot at! Some loads do not need sights on the gun. Point and make noise
That's right. A specific caliber requires a specific type primer, that is King. But then again, to find that you need to shoot off a rest and use a tube sight. To properly test, variables have to be eliminated.

[44man]

44man:
That's right. A specific caliber requires a specific type primer, that is King. But then again, to find that you need to shoot off a rest and use a tube sight. To properly test, variables have to be eliminated.
Can you imagine that some use a mag primer with 231 or Bullseye because the head stamp says "MAGNUM." :holysheep

[Frank]

44man:
Can you imagine that some use a mag primer with 231 or Bullseye because the head stamp says "MAGNUM."
I hear some use a small pistol mag primer with a fast powder in a .38 Special snub nose load. Have you heard of that one?