Milling Down The LEE 6.5mm Cruise Missile Mold - Best Sized Bullet ? [Archive]

DoctorBill

01-13-2011, 02:34 AM

I have one Custom LEE 6.5mm Swedish mold and another one is on
its way.

I have a Carcano wherein the CM keyholes even at 50 meters.

I have the opportunity to have the new mold milled to make the CM shorter.

My question to all who have milled or sawed off that LEE Mold - should I
have one or two lube rings milled off for the Carcano ?

Which works best to stop the "Keyholing" ?

http://www.mynetimages.com/ca89b669df.jpg

Mill it how far - to A or to B ?

What grain weight does each yield ?

DoctorBill

geargnasher

01-13-2011, 02:55 AM

JimInPHX has done this, you might PM him for more details. I cut one down for my Swedes since I got one of the CM moulds that cast .2715" with WW and wouldn't fit the throats as designed, but fit very well with one driving band cut off to leave the next lube groove as a GC shank and the base flush with the bottom of the case/neck junction. You'll have to measure the Carcano's throat to know how much to mill off.

If you do this to a mold that casts less than .271" at the driving bands, beware that Hornady checks will barely hang on there, you might need some super glue to hold them on.

In my Swedes, the cut-down boolits were unstable at any speed, others have had much better luck.

Gear

JeffinNZ

01-13-2011, 06:04 AM

I cut down some CM's by lopping off the gas check shank, rear band and lube groove creating a PB bullet. Using filler in my loads PB bullets worked fine. Still got oval bullet holes. Great accuracy but oval holes.

DoctorBill

01-13-2011, 10:50 AM

JeffinNZ -

Are you saying that when you cut off the GC shank, one ring above
that and the next lube slot, that you shot a bullet without a Gas Check
and the ring was on the bottom ?

i.e. you cut it off 'between' A and B in the picture I posted ?

As an aside....could it be that with the Carcano's progressive twist that
as the really long bullet leaves the barrel, it gets a last twist by the rifling after most
of the slug is out of the barrel.

Kind of like a kick in the fanny as it jumps off of the diving board - giving it an
unstable spin or wobble ?

In a normal twist rifle. the bullet is spinning at the rate of the rifling as it leaves
the barrel. The bullet has reached it's final spin rate before it leaves the barrel.
The angular momentum now has a constant value.

In the Carcano's 'Progressive Twist Rifling', the rifling is still torquing the bullet
up until the last of the rifling - so the bullet is being torqued even as the very
end of the slug leaves the barrel - the front of the bullet is 'free' and that last
torque could kick the slug into a sideways tumble.
The angular momentum is being increased even as the back end of the bullet leaves the barrel

I don't know why a shorter bullet would be less likely to be affected, but with
this bullets extreme length, maybe the last part of the bullet leaving the rifling
gets a twist causing the front to torque to one side, starting the tumbling process.

Thus, longer bullets would have a bigger fanny to be more affected by the kick as in my
analogy above.

Like getting tackled while you are in the middle of a long jump - you're going to start spinning !

Just trying to say it in different ways.

I will try to cut off some slugs at both the 'A' and the 'B' point and see what
weight bullet is left.

I want the result to be able to be Gas Checked, which means leaving a shank.

Did anybody else modify this mold ?

Edited in later - I cut off the Gas Check shank and the last ring on a Cast CM
bullet, and it went from 176 gr to 148 gr.
Therefore - Removing one ring should give an approximately 150 gr bullet.
...................Removing two rings should give an approximately 130 gr bullet.

I think removing two rings leaving the lube ring as a Gas Check shank is what
to do - for use in the case of the Carcano Carbine.

DoctorBill

JeffinNZ

01-13-2011, 05:30 PM

Cut off at the top of 'A'. Nothing to do with gain twist unless your barrel has been chopped. The bullet is just not suited to the Carcano is you like round holes. I get 2 MOA and dead animals however so I don't care anymore.

DoctorBill

01-14-2011, 10:28 PM

When you say that a bullet 'is not suited to a rifle'....what does that mean ?

If that is true, there is a reason.

I'm not going to just quit.

The bullet diameter fits the barrel. If it works in the Swiss rifle, what
is so inherently different about the Carcano that it wouldn't fly true ?

You said "...Nothing to do with gain twist", so you can't attribute it
to that.

What is left ?

Shape of the nose ? Why then, in the Swiss, does it work well ?

Length ? What is left to wonder about ?

If making it shorter doesn't work, then I will also make the front end
flat (mill off some lead) and try that.

I just can't and won't turn my back and walk away from this conundrum. [smilie=b:

If I can solve it, then hundreds of Carcano owners will be happy campers.

DoctorBill

DoctorBill

01-20-2011, 07:55 PM

My retired machinist friend milled my new (second one) LEE 170 gr Cruise Missile
Mold down one ring to around a 140 grain Cast Bullet.

Damn, he does good work ! Did it for nothing....wow !

I can't wait to cast some slugs, Gas Check them and try them in my Carcano,
Swedish Mauser and my converted .257 Roberts x 6.5mm Arisaka rifles.

I also bought a TruGlo "Tactical Dual Color Red-Dot" sight today for $60 at
the local Discount Sporting Goods Store.

http://www.mynetimages.com/42e78177d3.jpg
Made in CHINA, of course....

Has anyone tried this sight ?

This type of sight is new to me (I'm from the Dark Ages!) - all I know
is iron sights, peep sights and Scopes.

DoctorBill

DoctorBill

01-21-2011, 11:42 AM

Well, folks....I screwed the pooch on this one !

Taking pictures of the Milled Mold to show here, somehow something
looked wrong with it.

When my friend Gary asked me how much I wanted milled off, I told
him and he measured the depth with a depth caliper, then asked me
again and showed me the mold with the caliper in it. 0.250 inch.

I didn't have my reading glasses on and the shop lights were not bright and
I reversed the lands and lube grooves in my feeble mind.

Long story short....Measure twice Cut Once. I wanted an ~145 gr bullet.

http://www.mynetimages.com/223cc3529e.jpg

What a "Mental Giant" I am.....! Might as well go to the "Home" right now !
Just feed me pablum and let me watch Oprah Winfree all day long and I'll try not to
mess in my underwear.

THEN...I got to wondering just how this particular bullet might work in the Carcano, Swede
and in my converted Arisaka ?

Maybe I should mold some bullets like that (without Gas Checks) and
shoot them below 1500 fps - maybe they'd work well - who knows ?!

Most times people trip over a discovery by accident - then figure out how it worked later on.

I can always mill off that last land later - to make a 130 grain bullet with Gas Check.

I wonder if I can tie my shoes correctly anymore.....what was I talking about ?

Dum De Dum De Doooo.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7452/anidiotbill3mt1.jpg

DoctorBill

Bullshop

01-21-2011, 02:37 PM

Looks good to me, wanna sell it?

leadman

01-21-2011, 03:07 PM

I would try them as plain base, what do you have to lose? If the bullet stays in the case neck with enough room you can invert a gas check in the nck. Make sure the check can't fall into the case.

JIMinPHX

01-21-2011, 05:37 PM

I milled my CM mold at your point A & got about a 150 grain boolit. In a Carcano with a poor barrel, it shot pretty well. Groups were as good as I could expect, given the bore condition. All the holes in the target were fully round.

After milling the top off, I had to open up the new GC shanks about .004" or .005" to get the gas checks to grab well.

Being as you have already cut your mold as you did, I too would do as was already suggested by others & try that boolit as a plain base. You might like the results. It would certainly save some money on gas checks.

DoctorBill

01-22-2011, 05:42 PM

The Milled LEE 170gr Cruise Missile Mold - "Mistake" was carbon'ed with a candle
and I molded 35 bullets.

Each came out 138 grains with my $12 sale item - Harbor Freight Scale.

http://www.mynetimages.com/7e9716be7f.jpg

The picture has an original lubed Cruise Missile in the lower middle with a
line thru it showing where the mold was milled down to.

Now to load them up - think I'll use "Trail Boss" - and see how they work.

If it works well - I will name it the 138 gr C2M2 - the 'Chopped Cruise Missile Mistake'

DoctorBill

geargnasher

01-22-2011, 05:57 PM

I'd say shoot them plain-based, I see no reason at all that they shouldn't work just fine as long as you keep the velocities reasonable, your guns will tell you what "reasonable" really is.

PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, but your picture is worth a thousand words: You probably won't get good results at all with the bases rounded and not filled out like the ones in your pic, plain-based boolits really require perfect bases if you want them to work. I would say your mould and sprue plate were way too cold, try picking up the casting pace until you get a light frost on your boolits (with the CM mould that means cast as fast as you possibly can!). Reject anything that doesn't have razor-sharp bands and bases.

Get them to look like this, or hopefully better! http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19217&d=1264399121

I look forward to your reports on how these do in your various rifles.

Gear

JIMinPHX

01-22-2011, 06:37 PM

An old trick for using a gas check with a PB boolit is to turn the GC upside down & press it into the neck of the brass case before the boolit goes in. If you don't seat your boolit too deep, this will usually work. It's not necessarily the greatest thing since sliced bread in every case, but it is worth fooling with if you have the inclination.

JIMinPHX

01-22-2011, 06:43 PM

I've always been told not to carbonize a mold with a candle because it leaves an oily residue. I see a few squiggly lines in your boolits that may have been caused by mold contamination. I'd give the mold a good scrub with something like brake cleaner or alcohol, then blow it out real good, then try casting another batch. I'd try casting without smoking it first. If you have problems with boolits not dropping & feel that you need to smoke it, then a butane lighter is usually the recommended tool for that job.

I'll also second Gear's recommendation that you heat things up a little more.

JIMinPHX

01-22-2011, 06:47 PM

Get them to look like this, or hopefully better! http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19217&d=1264399121

Gear,
how did you figure out how to specify a link to an individual stored photo like that rather than specifying a post that contains the photo?

1Shirt

01-22-2011, 06:49 PM

I quit smoking the cavities w/a candle a long time ago. Agree with JiminPhx.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

HollowPoint

01-22-2011, 06:55 PM

I don't know about being able to tie your shoes right or not but, if your cutting the velocity down to around 1500 fps, you can probably use the booger your picking out of your nose as a bullet lube with no leading; assuming they're sized correctly. (I mean the bullets; not the boogers)

Regardless of the lube you use, I'd bet money that it will work. Once you get your mold to drop bullets with sharp edges and bases, I don't see how it could not work.

I tend to prefer lighter weight bullets myself so I'm hoping you get better results than you could have imagined. If you do I may buy one of these Lee molds and do the same thing.

HollowPoint

DoctorBill

01-22-2011, 07:33 PM

Yes, I know about the rounded bases and all that.

I was casting the bullets outside (lead fumes) and it is 40° F and very
humid here in Eastern Washington right now.

I should construct a Fume Hood with a suction fan to exhaust to the outside.

I tried heating the mold with a Propane Torch but everything cooled down REAL fast.

Normally in the summer weather, I cast 150 to 200 bullets and by 40
or 50 out of the mold, they start looking good.

But then again, I Gas Check all my cast rifle bullets....
Hell - I just changed my mind...I will load some roundie end bullets and see how they work.
After all...I'm not trying to be a sniper !
I'll try them and see how well the do compared to the more Kosher flat ended variety.

This was a "quickie" casting to see what they weighed and to test a few in my Carcano Carbine.

Description and Stock Restoration
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/37545

How it shoots
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/37726/Tested-my-Carcano-at-the-range-today-Need-Help-Advice?page=1

Six of those 35 castings have reasonably flat bases - I will load them and probably use TRAIL BOSS.

I have three 6.5mm Rifles ( the Carcano - the 6.5mm Swedish - the 6.5mm Arisaka / 257 Roberts conversion )
that I want to try this cast bullet in.

If the weather doesn't degenerate again, I'll get a chance to shoot them.
The range where I shoot is rather swampy in this kind of weather and
damned disagreeable when it is colder.

I'm 68 next month and as to shooting in bad weather - I'll leave that to the younger guys
and just watch O'Reilly and Hannity and swear at what is going on in Washington, DC.

Nobody commented on the TruGlo Red-Dot Sight.
I'm also anxious to try that thing out - New Technology to me !
I'm still rubbing sticks together to make fire...

DoctorBill

geargnasher

01-22-2011, 07:52 PM

I have no experience with Tru-Glo, so I'll let others comment there, I'm interested as well .

Also, I wouldn't worry about "lead fumes", lead doesn't vaporize at normal casting temps. It's the smoke and ash from fluxing that can be an issue. If you can cast in the garage with the outside door cracked that should be just fine.

JimIn PHX, I opened a second Castboolits window, went to my attachments, pulled up the one I wanted, and instead of right-clicking the thread (on the right side) I right click on the actual photo (on the left) and scrolled to "copy picture address" and selected that, then returned to the window I was using to post the reply and pasted the link there.

If anyone can tell me how to display one photo saved here on this site in multiple posts (I've seen it done here many times, such as Buckshot's famous 6.5mm boolit lineup) I'd be most grateful.

Gear

DoctorBill

01-22-2011, 08:51 PM

How about casting on the Kitchen stove with the overhead range hood on ?
Ours vents to the outside via a chimney pipe.

I could put a piece of old plywood over the top and cast bullets with that
fan on, made to suck up cooking smoke and odors.

It would be nice to cast inside w/o a breeze or the cold or the flies or the mosquitos, etc.

I flux with canning paraffin shaved off with a paring knife - I like it better than the
Flux I bought years ago (Marvelux).
I usually set it aflame and with stirring, the dross comes right to the top !

As to carboning the mold - I think those lines in the top of the bullet form
when the Wheel Weight Metal and the mold are not hot enough - however
I think I will clean the mold out and try KROIL as some have suggested.

If I can get the Carcano to shoot w/o key-holing and hit within a 12 inch circle at
100 meters, I will consider this endeavor to be a success - compared to what it has been doing.

DoctorBill

Have you seen that the California Ban on mail order purchasing of Ammunition has
been declared Unconstitutional.....at least until the 9th Circuit Court of Schlemiels gets hold of it.

JIMinPHX

01-23-2011, 01:54 AM

JimIn PHX, I opened a second Castboolits window, went to my attachments, pulled up the one I wanted, and instead of right-clicking the thread (on the right side) I right click on the actual photo (on the left) and scrolled to "copy picture address" and selected that, then returned to the window I was using to post the reply and pasted the link there.

Thanks,
That worked.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1133247#post1133247

JIMinPHX

01-23-2011, 02:00 AM

If anyone can tell me how to display one photo saved here on this site in multiple posts (I've seen it done here many times, such as Buckshot's famous 6.5mm boolit lineup) I'd be most grateful.

Gear

I just got that one figured out. Please see the link in my last post.

Jim

geargnasher

01-23-2011, 02:33 AM

HEEEE! Jim, I plastered some high-def boolit porn on your test thread, and it didn't cost me any more attachment space!

Gear

geargnasher

01-23-2011, 02:41 AM

Now I'm going to do it here, y'all forgive my exuberance:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19217&d=1264399121

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19216&d=1264399083

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19215&d=1264399031

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19214&d=1264398989

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19213&d=1264398946

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19212&d=1264398869

Gear

JIMinPHX

01-23-2011, 07:39 AM

Gear,
That's really interesting how you modified only 1 cavity & managed to swap the sprue plate around to work on either cavity. That was a stroke of genius. If the results with plain base boolits on this thread work out well, I may modify 1 cavity of my mold down to plain base length using your system.

JIMinPHX

01-23-2011, 07:45 AM

Hey Gear,
Take another look over on that test thread. There's something waiting for you.

DoctorBill

01-23-2011, 07:13 PM

oscarflytyer

01-26-2011, 11:35 PM

Curious - where might one get one of these 6.5 CM molds? I have 3 rifles in 6.5. Orig Swede 96, sporterized 96 and a Win M70 FW.

Just checked the length to the lands in the two Swedes tonight. They have the typical long throat - 3.365" OAL to get a 140 gr Rem PSP to the lands. I can seat the Rem 140 to an AOL of 3.215" at the last cannelure.

How long OAL is the CM bullet? Thinking it might be the way to go in a cast for the Swedes. Guessing less/shorter boolits will prob give poor accuracy.

geargnasher

01-26-2011, 11:47 PM

I wish I could take pictures that purrrdy !

Bet that was done with a focusable Thru-The-Lens Reflex Digital Camera
with Macro or close-up lenses and good lighting. Looks professional.

My little Kodak Autofocus Easy Share 6 MP can't get near that good a picture.

I am envious. Don't have $600 for to spend on a Camera.....rather on MilSurp Rifles.

DoctorBill

Unedited jpeg files downloaded directly from my Kodak Easyshare Z710 with the standard auto-focus lens and the "automatic" settings for f-stop, ISO, and aperture. Lighting was a compact flourescent bulb in a desk lamp, that's why there's color shift in some of the pics. Macro lenses are for wussies or Life photographers with REALLY good lighting.

Oscar, they're only available from Midsouth Shooter's supply, and only when they backorder 25 or more and then Lee makes a batch for Midsouth to restock.

Gear

DoctorBill

01-27-2011, 12:16 AM

Oscarflytyer -

They have them "In Stock" right now - just bought another one...

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000066.5SWED

Gearnasher -

Did you have the setting on "Close Up" ? Do you zoom in ?

How many megapixels ? Mine is 6 MP - an older camera.

I can't get that kind of clarity no matter what I do.

But then I reduce the image to fit here. I guess you set it up so that the
raw image fits the forum....

The real trick is LOTS of light !

DoctorBill

geargnasher

01-27-2011, 12:39 AM

7.1 MP. No zoom, set on "regular picture taking" but right at the limit of the autofocus for close-ups. You can use the "self-portrait" setting to get closer, but you get distortion and the dimensions are different. Raw image downloaded, it fits close enough most times.

Gear

oscarflytyer

01-28-2011, 01:01 AM

OK - CM is on the way. Got a 8mm Karabiner at the same time...

Now... for gas checks and sizers. I don't see a 6.5 Lee sizer. Any suggestions? W/O, will prob shoot as cast if they don't turn out TOO big... BUT... then there is the issue of that dastardly GC. Can you point me to a Lee style sizer that is in the vicinity of .265 (haven't slugged the 2x Swedes yet...)?

And anyone want to part with about 2-300 ea 6.5mm and 8mm GCs - so I don't have to buy a frickin' K!!!

Next issue is load data! Any and all help/info/experience is excepted and greatly appreciated. It sometimes gets ugly/expensive learning it all on my own! Buddy that runs the gun store/range I go to keeps making me show him that I still have all 8/2 fingers/thumbs!!!

DoctorBill

01-28-2011, 01:55 PM

Oscarflytyer -

" Now... for gas checks and sizers. "

If you already know about what I am saying, do not be offended !

You need to 'slug' the barrel with a soft lead slug and find out what it's
true caliber really is - then buy appropriate molds, sizers and Gas Checks.

The 6.5mm Gas Checks - Hornady sells them - No. 7040
http://www.hornady.com/store/6.5mm-Gas-Checks/

Lee makes sizers of various diameters
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1296237055.2262=/html/catalog/lubesize.html

...and if they don't have what you need, will make them for you for $4 additional cost.
Total $32 mol
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1296237055.2262=/html/catalog/custom.html#CUSTOMLUBESIZE

Google up load data for the size round you want - you will find something to
start with, surely.

DoctorBill

44magLeo

01-28-2011, 05:25 PM

I cast in front of a window with a fan to draw out fumes.
As far as lead poisoning, your more apt to get it from your case tumbler. The primers use lead styfinate, not sure I spelled that right. When you tumble cases the lead gets cleaned out of the pockets but is in the dust you breath when dumping the cases out of the tumbler.
Running your lead a bit hotter will help fill out the boolit. Setting the mould on top of the lead pot will get it to the right temps easily.

6.5 mike

01-28-2011, 08:24 PM

Get one from Buckshot, faster & you will be much happier with the results.

DoctorBill

01-29-2011, 02:01 AM

Continuing along my original line....I had the LEE mold milled down because
the "Cruise Missile " ( CM ) was tumbling when shot in my Carcano M38 Carbine...
...and shooting way low and to the left.

People keep telling me the CM is not suited or won't work in the Carcano "because"...

To me that is a challenge to figure out why.

Long story short - I took my Carcano to a friend to remove the front
sight so that he could grind down the rear sight to mount the Red Dot scope -
as per the previous part of this thread.

He calls me after he removed the front sight and tells me the barrel end
had been hit with a hammer !

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/38599/master/1/?

So he offered to counterbore the barrel end which he did today.
See the above link showing the barrel in its original condition and the
finished product.

Beautiful workmanship !

He then cut the Rear Sight down on his lathe so that I can mount a rail
across the receiver to the sight block.

http://www.mynetimages.com/f0f688c1b1.jpg

Next he will drill, tap and mount a rail I bought for $6 - Weaver No. 48082.
The rail will have to be cut back and a hole drilled in the appropriate place.

More to come....can't wait to shoot this rifle now - with the original CM loaded up !

DoctorBill

DoctorBill

02-01-2011, 02:47 AM

http://www.mynetimages.com/a266009f43.jpg

Carcano M-38 with the front sight plus bayonet removed (can be put
back on at any time) and the rear sight turned down level with the
receiver (replacement purchased - can be put back on).

Weaver rail with two screws. Receiver drilled and tapped for one hole
and rear sight drilled and tapped.

Only permanent mod is the one hole on the top of the receiver.

Counterbored and recrowned barrel.

Bolt and ejection port has no interference.

Will now see if the LEE Cruise Missile fires straight and true.

DoctorBill