Black Powder in 357 magnum cases???

[oldracer]

I did a bunch of searches and did not find what I was looking for and that is can I load a case full of FFG in my 357 magnum cases, compress it some, use a wad with 158 DEWC cast bullets and have them shoot reasonably well? I generally shoot light loads of w231 (3.8gn) with the wadcutters and they are good out to 50 yards and easy on my hands. I shoot a Walker 44 with 65gn of ffg and a round ball and get some kick but the hole in the cylinder is much larger than the 357 mag cases? I have an old model 66 Hog Hunter and also one of the new 8 shot scandium framed wonder guns and I think it would be different and some fun to try?

[zxcvbob]

Don't you mean 158 SWC? Or maybe RNFP? Yes, you can do it. People load .38 Specials and .45 Colts that way all the time. The .357 will just hold a little more powder than a .38 (DEWC's are usually 148 or 150 grains, and not as good a choice here because they will steal too much of your case capacity)

The guns will not be fun to clean afterwards. ;)

[oldracer]

That' correct, the SWC I cast are 158 and the DEWC are 148 and they do sit a bit lower since they are nearly flush with the end of the case. I was figuring the model 66 might be okay as it is all stainless and I can scrub it after pulling the wood stocks off like I do the Walker 44.

[waksupi]

I'd use 3FFF for a better burn if available.

[Savvy Jack]

Best I could get:


Uberti Cattleman 5.5 barrel
357 Mag brass
168gr SnakeBite bullet (Black Powder Bullet)
WSP Primers
22gr/v of Goex FFF

Est Velocity - 774 fps@223ft/lbs of energy

far cry from factory Winchester 110gr JHP, #Q4204 1284fps@402ft/lbs of energy, but fun!!

[Nobade]

I shoot pistol caliber silhouette with a B92 in 357. Load is a snakebite or #358250 (or 358911) over 21.5gr Swiss. Plenty of power for 100M silhouettes, and around 2 inch groups off the bench at 100M. Funny, this rifle is more accurate with black powder than any smokeless I have tried so far.

[oksmle]

Lyman 158 gr. SWC - WW - 20.0 grs. FFF Goex - Emmert's Lube - 775 fps.
Lyman #358466 - WW- 165 grs - 20.0 grs. FFF Goex - Emmert's Lube - 780 fps.
Both the above loads were fired from a 7 1/2" bbl SAA. No wads were used. I have a note with the targets (fired 11/22/99) to try 25.0 grs FFF Goex for a better seal. I'll bet the 25 gr load would approach 900 fps. If so it would give a bit of a "crack" in the SAA. Maybe that's why I never tried the heavier load....

[boommer]

Just use a black powder lube on your bullets and just pack the cases and don't worry about any wads ,3f would be a better powder but 2f will work fine.

[zxcvbob]

If you're going to shoot them right away, how about just lubing them with Crisco or beef fat and store the loaded rounds nose-down in one of those MTM boxes?

[BerdanIII]

Interesting thread. I recently reread an article in a national handloading(er) magazine on the history of the .38 Special in which the author was wondering why Smith & Wesson didn't use a longer case for more powder capacity when they developed the cartridge. He decided that a longer case would have been "overbore" for the bullet used and a waste of powder. That sounded like bilge to me at the time. For what it's worth, my personal opinion is that S&W wanted a cartridge more powerful (and accurate) than the .38 Long Colt that would fit into the cylinder of the then-current Hand Ejector revolvers. I would note, however, that the powder charges listed are just about what the original B.P. .38 Special used (dang those roomy balloon head cases!).

[w30wcf]

Interestingly, the factory ballistics for the original 38 Special b.p. cartridge was 960 f.p.s. with a 158 gr. lead bullet. 21.5 grs. of b.p. was used.

21.5 grs in a .357 mag case is a slightly compressed load using SWISS FFFG with a 158 gr cast bullet.

Velocity with that load in a 357 with a 7 1/2" barrel averaged 967 f.p.s.:grin:

What fun!

w30wcf

[iron mule]

you can use 3f or 2f it does not really matter my son has been shooting the 38/357 for about 4 years and all i load them with now is 2f and no problems
as to the clean up it is a breeze to clean them just different than smokless
after a match i have 8 guns to clean all were used with bp and i can have them clean in under an hour
all have at least 3 years of use and look like new just normal wear no problem with rust
if you would like to know my cleaning method just give me a pm and i'll let you know
mule

[3006guns]

I've done it in a S&W .357 stainless (thank God). There was no info available years ago when I loaded them, so I went by Elmer Keith's book "Sixguns and Loads". Basically, 'ol Elmer recommended black powder to beginning reloaders as it was pretty much goof proof.

I just measured enough FFFG to still allow the 165gr. SWC to seat and let fly. Lots of smoke, very impressive.....but accuracy was lousy. I'd forgotten to provide any lube besides what was on the boolit and it promptly leaded up on top of the usual fouling all over the revolver.

The second attempt (after a long cleaning session) involved a smear of Crisco on each cylinder mouth and the results were far better. Remember, this was light years before Wonder Wads and all the 'newfangled' lubricating systems we have now.

I'll put it this way......although a larger bore would be better, I wouldn't feel too undergunned with such a combination!

[ForneyRider]

Hodgdon has some load data for black powder for Cowboy load section in their "magazine". I find the magazine in grocery stores and Wal-Mart.

From what I read, you can use FFg and FFFg in pistol, but only FFg in rifle. I hope someone can agree/refute this with actual knowledge.

I am looking to use 148gr HBWC with some RS in either 38Spl or 357 mag case, but haven't found a load I am comfortable starting with. I have the bullets and powder.

[August]

I/ve loaded thousands of rounds of .38 special with black powder over the past five years. I use whatever is at hand. 2F, 3F, 1F. I've even used 4F.

If you can detect any difference in the functioning of 2 and 3 F in the .38/.357, I'd like to hear about it. I can tell no difference, except that the 2F tends to shoot a little bit cleaner in my gunz.

[Nobade]

Yesterday I got lucky! I found an Ideal #358250 mould at the local gun shop for $20! I cast up a few pounds of bullets with it last night, and loaded up 50 rounds of 357 with Swiss powder for the next pistol caliber levergun match. Thanks to the generosity of W30WCF here I know this bullet is a good performer in my rifle. Those pesky silly wets better look out now!

[Dragoon 45]

Hodgdon has some load data for black powder for Cowboy load section in their "magazine". I find the magazine in grocery stores and Wal-Mart.

From what I read, you can use FFg and FFFg in pistol, but only FFg in rifle. I hope someone can agree/refute this with actual knowledge.

I am looking to use 148gr HBWC with some RS in either 38Spl or 357 mag case, but haven't found a load I am comfortable starting with. I have the bullets and powder.

General rule of thumb is to use FFFg in pistol cartridges and FFG or larger in large capacity rifle cases such as .40-65 and .45-70, but this is not a hard and fast rule. I have used FFFg in .40-65 and .45-70 with good results. I regularly shoot 37 grns FFFg with a Lyman 454190 in .45 Colt in Ruger Vaquero's and a Marlin 1894 CB with no problems. I also load FFg in 12 ga shotgun although I may switch to Fg for that in the future. I have had no problems keeping my guns clean and working in the three years I have been shooting BP in SASS matches.

The main problem when using BP in any cartridge is: Does the bullet carry enough lube to keep the fouling soft? I have not seen any SWC or WC designs that I thought would carry enough lube. Therefore I stick to the old tried and true bullet designs like 454190 that originated in BP cartridges. Don't make the mistake of using smokeless lube with BP, you will regret it.

[ForneyRider]

General rule of thumb is to use FFFg in pistol cartridges and FFG or larger in large capacity rifle cases such as .40-65 and .45-70, but this is not a hard and fast rule. I have used FFFg in .40-65 and .45-70 with good results. I regularly shoot 37 grns FFFg with a Lyman 454190 in .45 Colt in Ruger Vaquero's and a Marlin 1894 CB with no problems. I also load FFg in 12 ga shotgun although I may switch to Fg for that in the future. I have had no problems keeping my guns clean and working in the three years I have been shooting BP in SASS matches.

The main problem when using BP in any cartridge is: Does the bullet carry enough lube to keep the fouling soft? I have not seen any SWC or WC designs that I thought would carry enough lube. Therefore I stick to the old tried and true bullet designs like 454190 that originated in BP cartridges. Don't make the mistake of using smokeless lube with BP, you will regret it.

I cheated on these and bought Hornady HBWC, they have a nice looking lube on them, and they are cold swaged. I shot some with W231 loads from 3.2-3.7 and the accuracy was so-so. My 158gr JHP and H110 is very accurate. But I didn't not fit flush the HBWC, so I might have messed up the bullets.

I think I will start with 17gr RS in Spl case. Hodgdon data has 15gr for 158gr and 20 for 125gr for 38 Spl for 2F.

[Good Cheer]

Pretty much the perfect "rook rifle" cartridge.
Do rifle length barrels need a lot of lube for the black?

[Old Ironsights]

you can use 3f or 2f it does not really matter my son has been shooting the 38/357 for about 4 years and all i load them with now is 2f and no problems
as to the clean up it is a breeze to clean them just different than smokless
after a match i have 8 guns to clean all were used with bp and i can have them clean in under an hour
all have at least 3 years of use and look like new just normal wear no problem with rust
if you would like to know my cleaning method just give me a pm and i'll let you know
mule

Hell, I have so much 4F that's what I use for .357 BPC loads...

IIRC I get something like 16gr vol under a 358156...

[Old Ironsights]

Pretty much the perfect "rook rifle" cartridge.
Do rifle length barrels need a lot of lube for the black?

No.

One of my 20" 1892 "catsneeze" loads was something like 10gr of 4F under a tumble-lubed 180gr keith.

[bigted]

well i just figured out how to remove all the parts n cylender on my gp100 ruger so LOOK OUT BP. im on it and as soon as i get a good mould ill let fly with some bp in the .357 case outta a 6 inch barrel.

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

The double end wadcutters can also be loaded longer in the case to increase powder capacity if you should want clean holes in the target.

Mike

[nwellons]

It may not be relevant but I have done a lot of research loading the Russian 7.62 Nagant revolver cartridges with BP and have found that primers make a very big difference. I have compared small pistol, small rifle, magnum small pistol and magnum small rifle primers. The magnum small rifle primers are the only ones that give a consistent velocity.

This may be due to the very small diameter of the cartridge but I got the idea from experts who recommended magnum primers to me for my .42 Berdan cartridges.