PDA

View Full Version : 45-120 Black powder cartridge info



Kamm Bunting
11-01-2006, 01:41 PM
Where can I find some data on the 45-120 cartridge? I have a buddy who just placed an order for a Montana Sharps and I get to help him load for it and shoot it. Mould info would be helpful too as I am sure some of y'all have been there done that. Thanks

montana_charlie
11-01-2006, 02:58 PM
Where can I find some data on the 45-120 cartridge? I have a buddy who just placed an order for a Montana Sharps and I get to help him load for it and shoot it. Mould info would be helpful too as I am sure some of y'all have been there done that. Thanks
According to what I read on other sites, the best advice I can find for your buddy is...call the factory and tell them to drill a shallower hole in the back end of the barrel. Even the .45-110 is considered 'finicky' to load for, and most of the .45-120 questions ask about 'reduced loadings' to cut down on the miserable recoil.

Unless your buddy has ordered a twenty pound rifle, he will probably end up wishing he had bought a .45-90...which can be drilled deeper as time goes by.
CM

fourarmed
11-01-2006, 03:39 PM
Here's a second on what Montana Charlie said. Unless cost is no object, or very few cases are needed, your pal will hate buying those long 3.25 inchers. 45-70 is dirt-cheap and everywhere, 45-90 is reasonable and can be bought from Starline, the longer ones are SEVERAL DOLLARS APIECE. Unless he really anticipates shooting the heaviest boolits with black powder, he will (sooner rather than later) wish he had ordered a shorter chambering.

kodiak1
11-01-2006, 08:22 PM
I bought a 45-100 and it isn't bad on the kicking end but after 20 or 30 rounds it does start to wear on you. The 45-70 can shoot either of them all day long it does make one hell of a difference.
Moulds cast a lot of 530 Postells and quite a bit of paper patch stuff. The paper patch I am still fine tuning on but I am happy with how they shoot, Could kill a deer and for now that is all that counts.
Ken.

longhorn
11-01-2006, 10:42 PM
"Data"on the 45-120 is going to be hard to come by. I thought hard about a 45-110 for my "hunting" Sharps, and ended up going with the .45-70. The guys that seem to be having success with the 45-110 are using Fg granulation and heavy bullets; seems to me (but I've never owned one!) that the same should work in the longer case. If your buddy is planning on using smokeless, I think he's making a mistake. In either case, I'd suggest the 45-70 instead.

KCSO
11-01-2006, 11:24 PM
Buy the "DUKE's" SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES OF THE OLD WEST. There is a batch of info on all the rifles and data for the 45-120, even though it wasn't a buffalo rifle. Now I will give my take on the situation...
I owned and shot a 45-110 for about 2 years and put a lot of lead down range and I would never agan waste my money on one. Heres why...
The cases were about 1.50 each compared to 45-70 for less than 50 cents. Dies 110 bucks compared to 25, lead and powder to get it shooting, more bucks. The 45-70 will do anything you need to do for target shooting with b/p. For hunting with b/p a 45-70 will shoot clear through a buffalo at 100 yards. With smokless the 45-70 case can be loaded up to match the 45-120 and then some. other than the awe factor the 45-120 will prove to be a pain. You will have a very hard time downloading that big case where a 45-70 can be shot with as little as 7 grains of b/p and a 454 round ball for a neat squirrel and plinking load. The 45-xxx will kick the bejasus out of you in a 40 round match and you will NOT like it. I never found one thing that I did with my 45-110 that I couldn't have done as well or better with a 45-70 or a 45-90 and a whole lot cheaper too. My target load for the 45-110 turned out to be 92 grains of powder and a couple of felt wads for filler. My rifle weighed 12 1/2 pounds and was really too light for 20 plus shots with full loads. Now I shoot my 45-70 and am happy, my scores are up and my buff just as dead. My advise, DONT DO IT!!!!

Bad Ass Wallace
11-02-2006, 12:43 AM
I have 40/65, 45/70, 45/90, 45/120, 50/70 & 50/90 BPCR rifles.

45/70 does suffer from powder deficiency if your looking for a 1000yd target rifle, 45/120 suffers from powder & recoil excesses as well as it is very touchy to load (mine is fitted with a Lyman 10x "All American"); the 45/90 is just right.

My standard load is 75gn Wano PP, 540gn Victory PGT mould in Starline cases. I shot Creedmoor 2006 in Brisbane to 1000yds and the flatter tragectory meant I could rest my face on the stock instead of over it.

I like my 45/120, but for my own pleasure and curiosity, but not for a target or heavy game rifle. My 50/90 with 650gn PJ bullet and 100gn FG is reserved for THAT!:Fire:

omgb
11-02-2006, 02:14 AM
My turn!!! I have a 45-70 and a 45-90 Sharps. If you are going to shoot smokeless go with the 45-70. The 45-120 is not a smokeless friendly cartridge. If you are not going to shoot over 300 yards and/or you are not going to use a lot of straight BP loads, go with the 45-70. It's a tack driver out to 300-400 yards. Now, if you have a hankering for BP loads and 500-1000 yard shooting, you'll need the extra space in the 45-90. It's wasted on smokeless however so again, unless you are going to meet the above qualifications, go with the 45-70. FWIW, 45-90 cases made from 45-70 cases are available and are dirt cheap. nothing in 45-110 or 45-120 is cheap. Have you given any thought as to how freaken hard it is to keep fouling under control in a 45-120? Good night, it's almost impossible on hot days.

Go with the 45-70 or the 45-90 if you need long range and BP.

NickSS
11-02-2006, 04:49 AM
Now for my two cents worth. I have owned and shot sharps rifles in 45-70, 45-90, 45-110 and 45-120. What was said above by everyone is 100% accurate. It took me exactly 100 rounds to decide that the 45-120 was worthless to anything I wanted to use it for. Same can be said for the 45-110 but it is a more useable cartridge in that accurate loads are easier to find. Today I own only 45-70s and a 45-90 for longer range matches out to 1000 yards. For any practical use for hunting and target shooting out to 600 yards the 45-70 is all you need. Beyond that range my 45-90 has an edge. I also use the 45-90 as winchester intened it as an express hunting cartridge loaded with either a 300 gr flat point or a 330 gr hollow point it shoots flater in my 1886 winchester for deer and elk than heavier bullets do. Tell your friend to change his order he will save enough money to buy several bullet molds and some powder too compared to the cost of getting setup just for dies and brass with the 45-120.

Kamm Bunting
11-02-2006, 12:06 PM
I'm all about economy of all things reloading. The 45-70 is what I would have gone with simply because of cases and such but he's sold on the bigger cartridge. Too much Quigley perhaps. Is any brand of mould preferred for big boolits? I ask because I have only just started casting and only pistol stuff at that.

montana_charlie
11-02-2006, 02:38 PM
If your buddy is sold on the .45-120, it must be a macho thing. If his thinking runs that direction, he may as well buy his moulds from NEI.

Tell him to buy a pair of blocks to cast their Catalog #351.
He will love the way it looks when loaded.
Load 100 grains of Goex Express 1F into the cases and compress enough to seat that bullet.
Use magnum primers to make sure it gets lit, and let him sight his gun in at fifty yards, firing prone for accuracy and stability.

He will probably fire two rounds.
One to see what it's like...and one to see if the first one was for real.

After it sits in the rack for a year, you might be able to buy it for half of what he paid...and have it rebarrelled for a sane cartridge.
CM

omgb
11-02-2006, 03:59 PM
The Big Sky Chuckster does not prevaricate....... your buddy is in for a righteous A$$ kicking of his own design.[smilie=w: But, seeing as how he wants it so bad, I'm all for him getting what he wants[smilie=1:

When the gun arrives, slug the bore and then drop a line to Veral Smith at LBT. For right at $140 shipped he will cut you the slickest two holer mould you've ever seen. If you use his chamber slugs and prepare a chamber slug, he can fit it to your chamber and bore exactly. A bore rider of about 520 grains is what your friend needs. Of course, Steve Brooks makes them and you can buy a single hole Postel mould from Lyman for a lot less but, that LBT mould makes bullets perfectly and in less time than any I've ever used.

FWIW, I have five 45 cal moulds. I have the Lyman Postel at .458, a Steve Brooks bore rider at .459 and three LBT moulds: a 500 grain LFN at .459, a 540 grain LFN at .460 and a 520 grain bore rider at 520 grain. All make good bullets but the LBT moulds are noticably better.

He will need a set of dies, Lyman are great and they're cheap. He will need some .030 veggie wads from Buffalo arms, some good lube (SPG or something similar) a compression die would be nice and a lube sizing die about .001 or .002 larger than the bore diemention. Federal 215 primers are good and good old GOEX or Swiss in either 2For 1F. My advice is to by Mike Venturino's book before you get the gear together. then you will know exactly what is needed and why.

Tell him good luck. Really, it's more fun that just about anything other than making babies, but it will seriously put a crimp in his golf swing.:Fire:

plasma
11-02-2006, 05:11 PM
I also shoot a 45-120 and have done so since 1988. The recoil with the 540 grain boolits is visious. This was my first BP cartridge rifle and it only weighs about 11 1/2 pounds. I tend to shoot more of the 450 grainers anymore as the recoil is less. I also shoot a 50-70 and a 45-70 - these are great unless you want to shoot the 1000 yd targets.

montana_charlie
11-02-2006, 07:04 PM
omgb,
That bullet I recommended is a 645 grainer. It will scoot 'buddy' back a yard...even if he blows it out of the barrel with compressed air.
CM

kodiak1
11-02-2006, 07:17 PM
Now charlie that's just plain mean. But damn funny on the other hand to.
Ken.

WBH
11-02-2006, 08:37 PM
WOW.....you got a whole lot of info to pass on to your pal. I, for one, would not own a anything over a xx-90. I shoot 45 and 50 cal in 70 and 90 grain versions. The Big Fifty weighs about 16.5 pounds and is a pleasure to shoot, but of course won't make weight for competition. It is just my original RB rebarreled. You can pick those guns up at shows all the time. Someone got it in their head to spend $1-5000 for a rifle that they can'r stand to shoot. Tell him to read Venturino's "Shooting the Buffalo Guns". Some good data there. Better yet, have him go to some sanctioned matches and count the # of 45-120's there.

NickSS
11-03-2006, 01:54 PM
If he gets tired of being kicked he can always try reduced loads. 70 -80 gr of FG and enough cream of wheat to fill the case sufficiently to allow seating of the bullet and card wad. The one guy I know who actually shoots a 45-120 in rifle competition does it this way though I have never seen him win a match he shoots fair with it. I guess thats a way to salvage a bad choice in caliber.

montana_charlie
11-03-2006, 02:35 PM
I guess thats a way to salvage a bad choice in caliber.
Agreed, NickSS...
If I received a .45-120 as a gift, or found it dirt cheap at a yard sale, I might be willing to find a way to use it some.

But, here we have a guy who has ordered a brand new rifle to be made (his first, I assume) and he insists on this cartridge.
The old adage about a fool and his money must still be true...
CM

Bullshop
11-03-2006, 03:02 PM
Elmer always spoke highly of the cartridge. If you feel the need for more than a 45/70 can deliver from a Sharps launch site the long case would be the way to go. Look at the load data in the AA book for that long case with smokless from a Sharps. I see great acceptance here for cartridges like the 458 win mag and 458 lott and even bigger so why not an arraingment on more traditional lines that delivers modern balistics?
I have had more than one rifle in this chambering and have always found usfullness in it, especialy in the area of smokless duplexing with the realy slow/cheap surplus powders.
I dont have one now and dont feel the need but thought there aught to be at least one pro post in this thread for the old king of 45's. Remember whatever a smaller case can do a bigger case can do it at lower pressure, and lower pressure is a good thing with boolits.
BIC/BS

August
11-03-2006, 03:24 PM
Hang out at the Shilo site for an education in all things 45 and 50 caliber. You can make a 45/70 into a 45/90 by using bore riders seated out a way.

Now, if your friend was going to get a .50 BMG for competition at one mile, I suppose THAT would make sense. I think I'm gonna stick with the .45x2.1 and .45x2.4 for all my work out to a thousand yards. Thanks to the good folks here, I've been getting better all the time as the boolits get better with experience.

You friend will be very disappointed with the .45x3.25 if he intends to shoot it. But, I guess these fellers have told you that already.

montana_charlie
11-03-2006, 03:25 PM
Remember whatever a smaller case can do a bigger case can do it at lower pressure
With no intention of sounding argumentative, Bullshop, you'll have to explain that one to me...in a way the relates to cases that are identical except for length - and shooting the same bullet...unless you are referring to loads which use smokeless powder.

If it's smokeless you are talking about, I don't need to know...but 'buddy' might.
CM

500bfrman
11-03-2006, 04:43 PM
Wouldn't if be really cool if people would just answer the question? I know that's not going to happen on any board. Let alone this one. Guy asks for data, I don't think it was ever presented though. Just how his buddy needs a 4570. I reckon if somebody wants to spend 2 or 3K or a rifle they can get whatever caliber they want.

wills
11-03-2006, 05:17 PM
If he is going to shoot Black, he can fill a case level full with FFG or Goex Cartridge, weigh that to get his charge weight, Drop the powder through his drop tube, put a wad on it and compress it however much it needs so he can seat his boolit. It is a place to start.

Per Longhorn make that FG.

SharpsShooter
11-03-2006, 06:21 PM
If he is going to shoot Black, he can fill a case level full with FFG or Goex Cartridge, weigh that to get his charge weight, Drop the powder through his drop tube, put a wad on it and compress it however much it needs so he can seat his boolit. It is a place to start.

If he would like smokeless Try

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Rifle/ObsoleteCartridges/45%20120%20Sharps%20Straight%20page%20365.pdf

There is a good bit of data for a vareity of boolit weights.......gee guys was that so tough?

Good Luck

SS

Bullshop
11-03-2006, 07:20 PM
M C
Yea it was smokless on my mind. I didnt read the whole thread so prolly stepped in it again.
BIC/BS

500bfrman
11-03-2006, 07:49 PM
here's some data:

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/lrrd.php#45-120

Lightning Ross
11-03-2006, 10:45 PM
I shot a 45 120 once Thats all I needed .It did cure a bad cold Knocked all the snot that was stuffed up in my head.I was slobbering allover this fellows rifle and he asked me if I wanted to fire one down range Sat down on the bench loveingly caressed his sharps replica slid into it looked down the sights slowily squezed the trigger and that is all I rember was the pain. I gues I aint man enough to be an old time Buff hunter.

longhorn
11-03-2006, 11:03 PM
Wills, I don't think FFg or Cartridge will be suitable, as all reports are that the 45-110 pretty much demands Fg. The _only_ reason I'd want a long case .45 would be to see if it could be made to shoot with black, as Bagwell, Wasserburger, and some others have figured out the .45-110. Smokeless? Sounds like a fine project for someone desiring an advanced degree in reloading.........

NickSS
11-03-2006, 11:04 PM
Most of the Buffalo were killed with cartridges like the 44-77 Sharps bottle neck and the 50-70 Government. The 45-120 was never chambered by the Sharps rifle company their big shell was the 45-2 7/8" also known as the 45-110. that came out in time to kill a few buffalow but the more mild cartridges were prefered. Even the 40-90 was popular in both the BN and Straight variety. The 45-3.25 shell came out after all the buffalo were killed.

Kenny Wasserburger
12-09-2006, 08:24 PM
Try to convince your pal to forget the 45-120.


As for the 45-110 its a correct historical Sharps Round, and I must say I totaly disagree with what has been posted on that cartridge here.

The Learning curve for the 110 is not as bad as it was some 12 years or so ago. Plenty of information abounds on loading this cartridge. Check out the Shiloh Rifle forum for loading data. Do a search on 45-110.

As it being competitive? yea it is 2 45-110's Shilohs both were in the top ten at Raton NRA Creedmoor nationals this year. Will it win gold, both rifles took home gold medals for a total of (8) indivual gold medals and also a national Title in Scope class.

First day of the Nationals the top 2 guns at 1000 yards were 45-110's.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Kenny Wasserburger

RANGER RICK
12-11-2006, 12:02 AM
Where can I find some data on the 45-120 cartridge? I have a buddy who just placed an order for a Montana Sharps and I get to help him load for it and shoot it. Mould info would be helpful too as I am sure some of y'all have been there done that. Thanks

Kamm

I didn't catch if it was smokeless , duplexed or the Holy Black ??
I do have some data that I use with my 45-3.25 .
I have never loaded any with smokeless . I have dabbled in Duplexed a few years ago .
I do nothing but the real Black stuff anymore .
My loads are for hunting and with 720 Grain gas chrecked bullets.

I will have to agree with most it is a rifle that takes trigger time , more trigger time and yet more trigger time to develop some good loads .
I absolutely love my rifle .
The recoil is manageable , stiff, stout and loud .
When I was on the firing line everyone knew when I touched one off . None of the other BPCR rifles on the line even came close to the noise level .

The 45-120 does not even come close to my buddys 50-140 with 975 Gr FNGC bullets !!!!!!!

RR

Rafe Covington
12-14-2006, 09:00 PM
It must be hell to be afraid of recoil, who knows maybe Sharps will build you guys a 22 lr. That should not bother you folks. Me I got a 45-110 and I don't consider the recoil bad, am having a 45-120 built and I will not be afraid to shoot it.

You folks have a good day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WBH
12-14-2006, 09:33 PM
Good luck developing a load for that 120...they are a bear to get to shoot. The 90 is an entirely different animal.

waksupi
12-14-2006, 10:56 PM
It must be hell to be afraid of recoil, who knows maybe Sharps will build you guys a 22 lr. That should not bother you folks. Me I got a 45-110 and I don't consider the recoil bad, am having a 45-120 built and I will not be afraid to shoot it.

You folks have a good day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


BH, I don't know how old you are now, but give it thirty years! You may like some gentler recoil by then! Separate a shoulder, break a back, get arthritis, or just plain have an aging body, and it gives you a slightly different perspective on recoil.:drinks:

WBH
12-14-2006, 11:02 PM
AMEN Brother.......... Must be a young'n wantin' to beat himself up like that.

waksupi
12-15-2006, 12:16 AM
AMEN Brother.......... Must be a young'n wantin' to beat himself up like that.

I slap myself, everytime before I shoot my .458 Win Mag, just to remind myself, this may not be a good idea!

Jon K
12-15-2006, 12:04 PM
Kamm,

Let your buddy get whatever lites his fire. It might wind up a shot twice gun or maybe not, but if you are going to do the loading, are you set up to handle that 3.25? Has your press got enough stroke?

Jon

:castmine: :coffee:

John Boy
12-15-2006, 01:28 PM
He will probably fire two rounds.
One to see what it's like...and one to see if the first one was for real.

:drinks: ... ROFLMAO! Good one, Charlie!

vmt_hntr
02-16-2007, 09:15 PM
I have this caliber in a Pedersoli Sharps replica and find the recoil...ah...exhilerating, to say the least even in a 13# gun. Now I don't shoot competition, but I do enjoy the aura about this rifle and hope to go west and shoot a Big Shaggy or an Elk, like was done years ago. I load the 525-530gr Lyman Postell boolit in 1-20 Tin/Lead mix and size it to .459. Along with a wax paper disc on top of 105gr Goex 2F and a grease cookie of 50/50 melted beeswax and neatsfoot oil, I still find I need to swab the bore out after every shot just to keep 5 shots on the money at 100 yards. My comments here are about the above post concerning what press to size and load these big cases in. Midway sold a press a while back that has a 5"+ throat, which is more than enough room to accomadate this Panatella length case. The Ammomaster from RCBS will work as well, but is a bit more dollars. I use the Lyman dies and the compression die stem from Montana Swaged bullets after dropping the powder down a 24" drop tube, then seat the boolit on top to compress the load approximately 1/4". I leave one grease groove exposed. Trying to compress all that powder only distorts the boolit without first using the compression die stem. Anyway this load seems to perform well. I want to try the new Goex Express powder in the future as I've heard it will leave a softer fouling. This is my take on this...
And by the way, Buffalo Arms has the last of the BELL brass that was made several years ago in this caliber @ $2.50 each! I see now where Norma is making this brass now, and 50 cases from Cabelas or Midway will run ya $90 plus shipping. Good luck with what ever you decide to do....I'm having a ball....
boB...

Bear Claw
02-17-2007, 12:49 AM
QUOTE: You will have a very hard time downloading that big case where a 45-70 can be shot with as little as 7 grains of b/p and a 454 round ball for a neat squirrel and plinking load. By KCSC

Wow KCSC how big are the squirrel's in Nebraska:-D :-D

Don't get mad just kidding around................:drinks:
K B
According to my CTG's of the world: 500gr cast over 85gr of ffg = VEL 1299 ener= 1873

485gr cast IMR 4198 =26gr Vel.=1360 ene=2000

both Lyman= 1st is 457125 2nd is 451112.............

This is by no means a starting point just some data that you asked for as I found it
you and your buddy should listen to some of the advice here about loading as this is a little differant than smokeless loading.

As to the 45-120 I know nothing about recoil but I belive these guy's,, However if thats what he wants good for him,,Thats why they make slipon recoil pads & past pads.

For all we know guy's his buddy might be huge and he never heard of recoil ( YEA I know he will ):-D

EDK
02-17-2007, 06:09 AM
If you're sure you want it, get it! I have a 50/90 SHILOH SHARPS LONG RANGE EXPRESS, with most of the standard upgrades. Logic said to get a 45/70, but this can be a once in a lifetime purchase. Whenever I heard "SHARPS," I thought "BIG FIFTY." They don't give brass away--about $1.50 each--but after that, lead and powder are relatively cheap. Take care of it and brass lasts a long time.

It is great to set the trigger on "the big girl" and send 600+ grains of lead down range. I went to the QUIGLEY MATCH at Forsyth Montana in 05 to look around and shoot when the serious guys were done practicing. I met some great people and had the best week in years. In 06, my brother and I shot for score--didn't do worth a d---, but had a good time despite tang sight problems. Met the friends from the year before and made some new ones. I drove almost 1600 miles each way from St. Louis Mo to visit Shiloh Sharps and make the shoot. And I'll do it again in 07. Maybe this guy needs to come out to Forsyth for the "Q" and be around kindred spirits.

One writer was quoted as saying, "this is the rifle I hold in my lap when I'm watching QUIGLEY DOWN UNDER for the hundredth time." If it has to be explained, you wouldn't understand anyhow.

montana_charlie
02-17-2007, 02:50 PM
K B
According to my CTG's of the world: 500gr cast over 85gr of ffg = VEL 1299 ener= 1873

485gr cast IMR 4198 =26gr Vel.=1360 ene=2000

both Lyman= 1st is 457125 2nd is 451112.............

This is by no means a starting point just some data that you asked for as I found it
BearClaw,
You did good, in that you provided data when the guy asked for data, then you tagged onto the end with any opinion (or other comment) you might have on the subject. I like doing things that way, as well.

But I have a question about your data.

Some guys won't post actual load information because they would 'feel responsible' if somebody tried that combination, and found a dangerous situation.
Others will post actual loads, but will surround them with caveats so that a user knows he's on his own (in case he had any doubt).
You did the right thing by mentioning your data came from your copy of Cartridges Of The World. But, I am wondering if the book actually says what your post implies.

I am speaking specifically about the black powder load with the 500 grain bullet when I say...
Knowing how much case volume is needed to hold 85 grains of FFg, and knowing how much depth is needed to seat the Lyman 457125, that load does not look like it will fill up the entire 3 1/4" case...leaving an airspace.
Could you check your book again to make sure they meant that for .45-120?
CM

Bear Claw
02-18-2007, 02:12 AM
Sure thing Charlie

Data from 9th edition chapter 3 page144,, it also says it's for the 45-120 & 45-125.......I suppose it could be a typo & I do not have a proper manuel either ( YET )
But I did enter it as it is printed, I even left out the " 00 " load as I wasn't sure what it was and it was listed as a factory load anyway.

The thing that I wondered about is the IMR 4198 load ie: I wouldnt use any smokless powder but here is a printed loading.

I guess the problem would be that there is no mention of wads or fillers that a begining reloader would know about in fact the photo shows a paper patch boolit,again somthing a beginer might not know about.

Perhaps the best thing to do would be to advise him to buy a reloading manuel and reserch it himself as CTG of the world is NOT a manuel, but I just wanted to post somthing positive for him to ponder rather than beat him up about his buddie's gun.

B C