.30-30 casting and case sizing

[marlin.45]

Aquired an old but VGC Model 94 a few months back and planned to try hand cast in this for plinking and the odd fox. Until now I have only cast for pistol cals.

So in prep I aquired a Lyman 2660291 mold and dropped 50 good bullets with it last night with a good hard alloy of around 50% wheel weights. As cast without gas check they come out as .311". Using a soft lead bullet tapped into the front of the barrel I get a measurement of .300" across the rifling and .305" bore. Ideally I do not want to size the bullets for the moment to keep the costs of a new set of dies down (I do have a Lyman 450).

Brass is some factory PMC I had already used then full length sized in a 2-die C-H set I was given with the rifle. Probably early '70's vintage. When full length sized the neck OD came out at .320" (The PMC factory neck size is .328-.330" OD with bullets at .310" OD). With the newly cast and GC bullets I get a bulge from the neck and a slightly crushed body (though it chambers fine and the bullet kisses the rifling nicely). Though there is no way I will use this in this state.

So my questions are:-

1. Do the bullet dims look good or should I size?
2. Reloading dies, though in mint condition, should be they replaced with a new set of RCBS/Lyman?

Cheers all
Paul

[JFE]

Unless that's a typo, your bore diameter seems a bit small.

My 30/30 wont function well with bullets sized 0.311, but is fine when they are sized to 0.310. It all depends on your chamber and brass dimensions. As long as your rifle chambers and ejects loaded rounds OK, you should be fine.

Get yourself a Lyman M-die - it makes seating cast bullets so much easier.

[marlin.45]

Thanks for the post JFE.

Doing further investigation shows I should be expanding or belling the neck (as I do with .45LC :veryconfu). I can get an M-die here for 20GBP so not a biggy.

Just rechecked the swaged bullet dims from the muzzle and they are .300" and .305"! So should I resize - if so to what? All suggestions gratefully received so I can get an order out ;)

[1Shirt]

Recommend you slightly bell all rifle brass. Also recommend that you neck size only for case life w/30-30. (back die offat least 1/16 of an inch from shell holder, maybe a bit more). Check your rifle for chambering. If you stay with moderate loads you should be able to get 8-10 or maybe more loadings. I anneal my necks on 30-30 after every 3-4 loads, and check for length after each firing. Usually have to trim after every other load. Good luck.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[marlin.45]

Thanks for the advice gents.

So I will get an Lyman M-die on order in .30 cal short (though Midway UK say these are on backorder!). This will remove the grief of leading the bullet into the neck mouth. But should I replace the die set. Anyone ever used these old C-H dies?

I will give the bullets a go unsized at .311" if they drop into the case necks throat without causing excessive distortion - which will reduce the case life no end. I Will also order some new Rem brass.

[white eagle]

like posted a small flare on the case does wonders
also you really should size them
I know it hurts specially when you are just getting after it
but some things must be done

[marlin.45]

W-E, is your preference for neck flaring the M-die, Lee universal or alternative? Just trying to weigh up all the options :mrgreen:

Looks like it may have to be a Lee universal unless I want to wait weeks/months or get whacked for custom charges.......

[405]

marlin.45,
A few things. Go slow and one step at a time to isolate the best reloading methods for your 30-30. First, get a Lyman M die. Next, it's unlikely that the true bore dimensions you're getting are .300/.305. Since it's a modern gun, likely the true bore dimensions will be something like .300/307 or .301/308.

You're on the right track checking the loaded round neck diameter- that will determine fit of loaded round in neck of chamber- needs to be some clearance there for bullet release.

Try using a soft lead, tapered slug that is a few thous oversize (like .320+ or so) and tapping that all the way through with the bore well lubed. Sometimes the muzzles are the tightest portion of the bore and will give a false reading of bore dimension. You can even insert a metal rod (1/4-9/32" bolt shank about 2" long) into an empty case and close the action on it. Then tap a soft lead slug against it to ensure the slug obturates to full diameter at or near the leade or breech end of bore. That will give the best indication of the bullet size you want to try.

A good place to start is a bullet sized to groove diameter to about .001" larger than the groove diameter at the bore leade (very first part of rifled bore). Usually gas checked bullets, so sized, will do very well. Just guessing but a GCed bullet sized about .309" would be a good place to start. The Rem brass and the M die should help you along. Make sure the new brass is trimmed to same length before starting. Lightly chamfer inside and outside mouth. Never shot the bullet you describe in a 30-30 but the 311041 is the standard in a levergun. Good luck!

[northmn]

I bought the Lee universal die for belling cases and like it. It works. Generally I have found the 30-30 to be about the easiest cartridge to work up cast bullets for. I ahd a couple of Winchesters and my Marlin and all seemed to work with the same loads.

DP

[1Shirt]

I also bought the Lee universal die when it came out, and sold all of my M-dies on e-bay, and have no regret. By the way, my 94 win 30-30, likes .311 drived at about 16-1700 over the 150 lee.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Char-Gar]

1. Check again, that groove diameter is not .305.
2. Never buy new dies if the old ones will work.
3. Remove the expander plug from the size die and use a Lyman M die and the distorted cases will disappear.
4. Have fun.

[marlin.45]

405,

Cheers for the advice and I will attempt to slug the leade breech end to get the dims from there.

Just did a search and the 2660291 is the same as the 311291 (older prefix).

Chargar,

The C-H dies have never been used by me and I doubt the PO ever used them either from the condition of them. The case distortion happens when the cast bullet is fitted not after sizing.

1Shirt,

Looks like I will have trouble getting an M-die so the Lee is in stock so I will have to go with that anyhoo's.

Back to dies. Has anyone encountered C-H before? Plus, I may pick up a Lyman/RCBS 2 die set anyway so I have something 'known'. The C-H sized neck dia. of .320" is tight even with a bell mouth lead. What do others' die sets throw after sizing?

[northmn]

For a 30-30 I would load what I have to see if it works before buying anything. They are not really fussy except possibly for as stated bullets sized to 310 or so. Mine shot well with 309 and I am going to a 310 for all my 30 cals. Again my 30-30's shot with a Lee 120 grain cast, 150 grain flatnose and a deer load using a 185 grain sized to 309. My accuracy issues compared to other calibers were almost non-existant as they all shot pretty well.

DP

[marlin.45]

Just found the SAAMI spec.s for the .30-30 round in my cal specific reloading guide. Here it states the neck size to be .330" OD. the CH dies are throwing them out at .320". Defintely looks like a new set of dies is on the cards? 10 thou of mopping with wet'n'dry might take a while.

[peerlesscowboy]

If you're in the market for a new die set might I suggest the RCBS "Cowboy" 3 die set. They're designed for loading cast and they work great! Available in .30-30 among others.

John C. Saubak

[405]

marlin.45,
Yes. Your roundnose bullet should do fine in the 30-30.
I just checked a couple of fired rounds out of a couple of my 94s. Both showed a chamber neck diameter of .330". My loaded rounds with .309" GC bullets show a neck diameter of .328". Brass is newer Winchester. Rem should be similar. My Lyman sizer takes the neck down to .320" OD. The Lyman M die easily opens the entire neck up to .327" OD. The step in the M die takes the last .1" of the neck mouth up to .332" OD. So your C-H dies may be fine. The M die will solve most of the issues. The RCBS Cowboy set is another good option and should include a dedicated neck expander die. To simply bell the case mouth with a pair of needle nose pliers or a universal Lee bell die was discussed at length on the Forum not too long ago. There are those who swear by the simple flaring the mouth vs using a dedicated neck expander like the M die. I have found that the M die or similar type expander is superior in all aspects for seating cast bullets. Do as you want. :)

[marlin.45]

marlin.45,
Yes. Your roundnose bullet should do fine in the 30-30.
I just checked a couple of fired rounds out of a couple of my 94s. Both showed a chamber neck diameter of .330". My loaded rounds with .309" GC bullets show a neck diameter of .328". Brass is newer Winchester. Rem should be similar. My Lyman sizer takes the neck down to .320" OD. The Lyman M die easily opens the entire neck up to .327" OD. The step in the M die takes the last .1" of the neck mouth up to .332" OD. So your C-H dies may be fine. The M die will solve most of the issues. The RCBS Cowboy set is another good option and should include a dedicated neck expander die. To simply bell the case mouth with a pair of needle nose pliers or a universal Lee bell die was discussed at length on the Forum not too long ago. There are those who swear by the simple flaring the mouth vs using a dedicated neck expander like the M die. I have found that the M die or similar type expander is superior in all aspects for seating cast bullets. Do as you want. :)

Cheers for that 405 and I have also just cast some soft lead bullets and driven one down the full length of the bore. From muzzle to breech. OD of the bullet after this is .308".


So from this should I resize to .309" or stay with the .311"?
Good news on the C-H dies but getting an M-die seems to be the problem there. Midway UK have them on backorder. They est. 20th Jan. I will have to risk that estmate.
The RCBS cowboy dies are also on +2 months backorder so for now I will stay with the C-H

My limitation is availablity of stuff this side of the pond for what is an unusual calibre over here :holysheep

[405]

There ya go! .308" it is.
I'd sure start at .309" sized diameter for bullet. I'm afraid if you start pushing the size envelope to .311" you may very well run into a problem of not enough room for clean bullet release from the neck upon firing and.... while it's true that an over-sized cast bullet will be swaged down as it is pushed into the throat, through the leade and on into the bore.... no reason to put more than necessary "stress" upon an already somewhat fragile cast bullet as it is fired. A properly sized and gas checked cast bullet fired thru a modern chamber and bore at a reasonable velocity doesn't need to be umpteen thous oversize.

Too bad there's a backorder on the M die. I'd still order one and until then just lightly open the mouth up with whatever tool is handy.... just enough to get the bullet base started, then seat them. Pay particular attention to bullet alignment as the seater pushes the bullet down. It's easy to start one crooked.... they tend to never completely straighten up if started crooked. The gas check base will "pave the way", so to speak, as the bullet is seated.

[marlin.45]

Really appreciate the help all and the order is going in today. The 450 sizing dies in .309" are in stock so if they don't hold the order back I should have enough to go with for now.

Cheers again,
Paul

:)

[NHlever]

When the rifle is fired the case has to expand enough to release the bullet, or pressures can rise more than expected. This is more of an issue with jacketed bullets naturally, but still is something we should be aware of. I usually take an as cast boolit, and see if it will slide into a case that has been fired in the rifle I am loading for. If it will then there is no reason to have to size the boolit. If the fit is snug, you should size the boolit. Lee makes a pretty inexpesive sizing die, but one for your sizer would be a good investment if needed. Makes a good way to seat the gas checks anyway. :D

[Char-Gar]

"The C-H dies have never been used by me and I doubt the PO ever used them either from the condition of them. The case distortion happens when the cast bullet is fitted not after sizing."

Yep, I understood that. You are trying to seat a .311 bullet in a case expended for a .308 bullet which is causing your problems. A Lyman M die will expand your case necks for a proper fit with the .311 bullet. Most any 30-30 will accept and give good accuracy with .311 bullets.

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

Marlin45 - That's a sassy looking little Russel you got there ............. Got a little Parsons Russel myself, best friend I've ever had.............. I know it's off subject, hope it doesn't annoy anyone.

[marlin.45]

He's just coming up 2 years old and is called Bren (BRNO/Enfield - just to keep it closer to topic ;) ). He is a bouncy little chap and gives our 6 year old female JRT a run for her money :hijack::grin:

The little chap is behind me now squeaking. It's just gone 1500 hrs. and in his mind it is time for his daily outing.

Here he is at 12 weeks...............

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1904/11504492/20391434/350117773.jpg
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1904/11504492/20391434/350100411.jpg

[marlin.45]

You are trying to seat a .311 bullet in a case expended for a .308 bullet which is causing your problems. A Lyman M die will expand your case necks for a proper fit with the .311 bullet. Most any 30-30 will accept and give good accuracy with .311 bullets.

Cheers for the note Chargar and I just needed to check whether my previous post wasn't clear. Wouldn't be the first time I banged out jibberish ;) I will see how the .309" sizing groups then using the heads unsized is another option for later. Just dug the 450 out of the back of the workshop and mounted/cleaned it up. Aquired it for nowt and it looks well used.

OAL I will set so the cast head just kisses the lands. Powder choice here is Varget, H110 or H4350. The former is the propellant of choice as I already buy it in for the .223 & .243.

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

That's how I do my 30-30's. I don't size the case at all and bell the mouth just enough to hide the check. 28-30 gr 4350 ought to be a reasonable place to be for a load. 4350 seems to be a versatile powder to get good velocity with reasonable pressure for many alloy blends. I hedge my bet some with a Rem 9 1/2 magnum primer to light off slow powders(all powders for that matter) Don't know that it's needed, just feel better doing it. Also use a Lee Factory Crimp die with a good firm crimp and have zero issues with bullet push back on loading or chambering.
Loved the photos. That "squeaking" the Jacks do must be a part of their breeding. Mine does the same thing for her daily routines if I should be late, especially if it's" biscuit time" in the morning and then "jerky time" in the evening. I promise this is the last time I pilfer the thread with JRT ramblings..........(maybe)

[405]

marlin.45
The proven powders for the 30-30 cast are 5744, 4198, Rel 7 and similar. I don't know about H110. Mag primers won't be any advantage in that small case and may be a disadvantage. The slower powders may or may not work--- the 30-30 is not an overbore nor a magnum :)

[marlin.45]

"The C-H dies have never been used by me and I doubt the PO ever used them either from the condition of them. The case distortion happens when the cast bullet is fitted not after sizing."

Yep, I understood that. You are trying to seat a .311 bullet in a case expended for a .308 bullet which is causing your problems. A Lyman M die will expand your case necks for a proper fit with the .311 bullet. Most any 30-30 will accept and give good accuracy with .311 bullets.

Cracked off a round earlier while walking the JRT's so I had one which hadn't been sized.

ID of the fired case is .310" and OD .332". So a sized .309" cast will drop in nicely at that dia. Whether the M-die delivers the same dia. with better concentricity?

You read my mind Smoke-um re. just dropping the head in and crimping.

Well anyway I now have a bunch of options and the means to achieve it should be in transit (so says MidwayUK parcel tracking).


The proven powders for the 30-30 cast are 5744, 4198, Rel 7 and similar. I don't know about H110. Mag primers won't be any advantage in that small case and may be a disadvantage. The slower powders may or may not work--- the 30-30 is not an overbore nor a magnum

Almost forgot I have some HP38 at the back of the store too (.45LC plinking load). The problem here is finding a powder that is regulalrly obtainable, and at a reasonable price. lb of anything is around $70 and the most common is Hogdon.

I don't want this to be some sort of shoulder cannon/magnum (it would detonate anyway LOL) but if I can get the round close to an ME of 1700ft/lb (Roe/Red/Sika/Fallow deer legal in England/Wales) it would be good. 20" barrel. But I think I will be pushing it. Above 1000 ft/lb is fine for Chinese Water Deer (CWD) and Muntjac anyway. Locally deer species are Muntie and Roe.

I am really getting attached to this lightweight and unscoped LA. I already have a Marlin Mountie .22 ('56), Marlin 1894CB .45LC ('90's) but this is compact and easy to wield around and store in the Land Rover. The scoped bolt actions have their place but are not so much a 'go to' unless the task requires it.

So to sort this load out then get some low profile sights to replace the original Winchester hardware ;)

[405]

marlin.45,
Understand the problem with powder availability in rest of world. We don't know how lucky we have it here.

As far as velocity with the cast in the 30-30. Try to start around 1400 fps and slowly work up. Accuracy and shot placement are everything for hunting. I don't know if you can reach 1700 + fps with top accuracy and minimal leading with the cast you're shooting- your load and gun will tell you :) I think your 1700 ftlbs energy (equiv. to 2000-2200 fps) is a little optimistic if top accuracy is important. A cast 150-170 gr 30 cal bullet with 1400-1600 fps muzzle velocity at reasonable range will fully penetrate the game you mentioned. If the bullet alloy is much harder than maybe 14-15 BHN the energy shed will be minimal anyway... so it will still boil down to shot placement and penetration.

[marlin.45]

Yep. I will avoid approaching over 1800fps TBH as less than that is perfectly adequate for most oppertunities. Plus the leading issue :smile:

I need to chrono the PMC ammo I was given with the M94. It has less kick than my 300grn. .45LC round in the 1894 so it's probably v.light. Always useful to know though.

[peerlesscowboy]

OAL I will set so the cast head just kisses the lands. Powder choice here is Varget, H110 or H4350. The former is the propellant of choice as I already buy it in for the .223 & .243.
Of the three powders listed I'd try Varget.

John C. Saubak

[Suo Gan]

Just did a search and the 2660291 is the same as the 311291 (older prefix).



Not that big a deal, but 308291 was what 311291 was called, the 2660 prefix you gave is either a mistamping on your mold (I have one of those) or you missread it. Good boolit choice for 30-30.

For Lyman molds (and some others) the first three numbers indicate the bore diameter... 356, 358, 314, 338, etc. the last two or three numbers indicate a cherry number of a particular style boolit.

[marlin.45]

Not that big a deal, but 308291 was what 311291 was called, the 2660 prefix you gave is either a mistamping on your mold (I have one of those) or you missread it. Good boolit choice for 30-30.

Two numbers on the mold carton. 2660291 is the Lyman Item #. The second No. is the 311291. I'm sure it's just because someone somewhere likes to create confusion? ;)

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

I've heard the same thing about magnum primers but seem to work well in everything I have. I have a few loads developed with Fed 210 primers and save those for them. During the primer shortage a couple of years ago found five thousand Rem 9 1/2M at an obscure surplus shop and bought them all. Been developing loads around them since. Use-um or lose-um I figured. I have used IMR 4350 in 30-30 with good accuracy and decent velocity at 28-30 grains. The accuracy at 100 yds is 2 1/2" with 160 Flat nose Ranch dog mold. Velocity 1640 - 1775 fps that load range in a Marlin 336 1970 Vintage. Accuracy and velocity is a bit better with both 25 gr IMR3031 and 26 gr IMR4895 and same bullet. An older Lee 180RN bullet shoots well too but the Ranch Dog design does have the edge in both velocity and accuracy. I have about 10 lbs left of 5744 but save that for the 06's where it seems to shine quite well. 30-30 is a great cartridge for cast bullets, seems just anything within reason shoots at least "good". I've also never had an issue with the micro-groove rifling that some seem to have had.
Mike

[woody1]

FWIW 2660291 = Midway's catalog number for the Lyman 311291. Regards, Woody

[peerlesscowboy]

I'd bet the # stamped on the mould is 311291

[marlin.45]

New issue today and a pity I didn't notice this sooner. The top threaded section of the C-H dies is made from aluminium alloy (threaded into the steel lower section) with a coarse thread. Not the most sensible material choice IMHO.

What I have now found is the depriming pin (doesn't have an ID sizing 'blob') is not running central. Found this out when the pin snapped off when sizing a case. So now to order a modern die set so I can at least FL the new brass? :coffee:

Smoke-um,

I use the H4350 for the .303 British and I only shoot that occassionally (off to Bisley with it next Sunday) and it is easy to get....as is Varget :)

[405]

Yikes, another problem :(
I don't know how many cartridges you load for but what I did is take the decapping pins out of most all my sizer dies. I use a universal decapping die for all of those now. No need for either the decapping stem or sizer button. The universal decapper sits separately on the bench ready for whichever cartridge I'm loading at the time. Decap, lube, size with the correct sizing die, wipe clean with paper towel and acetone, trim and chamfer if needed, expand with the appropriate M die, seat primer, charge, seat bullet- done.

BTW, those JRTs are full o beans- keeps ya hoppin I bet :)

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

Well then, a little range time will quickly determine if one or both are satisfactory for your needs. A little cross reference from the Lyman manuals indicates 24-25 grains of Varget should be a decent place to start. Maybe someone will have a Varget load already working for them and let you know. I am still surprised this thread doesn't have more people chiming in.
My little Jack, Miss Reba, is currently warming herself on the the floor register after coming in from a romp in the snow as we went to get the mail....... still did all the romping and I did all the getting the mail, hardly seems fair...........

[405]

marlin.45,
Since you mentioned standing stones... this is really stretching the thread but the earliest ancestors I can trace were from the Wiltshire area. While the history is a little clouded, somewhere in the 500-600s they came out of the hills or "downs" to volunteer to fight the invading Romans. They had no surnames just first and clan names. Some of same migrated for work up to the Manchester area prior to the 1500-1600s. Got on a boat headed to Massachusetts in 1656. Rest is history.

[Shakey Jakey]

C-H is good stuff and still in business. -MADE IN USA- (thank you very much)

[looseprojectile]

Try opening up your 30 30 cases with a .303 BR expander. I use that or a 7.65X53
expander for cast in the 30 30. Still have to bell the mouth a tad. I have some dies that have an expander with a larger tapered belling feature built in.
Most all rifle dies are made for loading jacketed projectiles.

Life is good

[45r]

I got hornady dies and M die for my 30-30's.Got 100 free J words too.I like their bullet seater and you'll never break a decapping pin with their dies.FL die needed some polishing with flitz but work OK.I like redding dies the most but went with the hornady because of the inline bullet seater helps getting the booolits in straight with the thin 30-30 brass.I shoot BRP's 173GC boolits over 25 grains RE-7 and they shoot real good.I've got real good groups with 29 grains 3031 or H-4895 also.

[rintinglen]

You may also find that H110 works quite well.
I have shot several hundred 311-291s out of my Winchester over 15.5 grains of H110 with fine accuracy. It generates about 1700 fps out of my 26 inch barrel Canadian Commemorative. It works about as well as 2400, but has a narrow band of safe charges. An old note I wrote in the back of my Speer 11th edition manual says 14-16grains min-max with a 170 grain cast bullet. That is consistent with the charges listed in the RCBS 1st edition Cast Bullet Handbook for their 30-180 FN, which are listed as 13-15 min-max with a 187 grain bullet. Be darned if I can recall where I copied that load data from, though. These days, thanks to a 4 cavity 311-041, I seldom shoot the round nose 311-291 anymore. That old single cavity just doesn't get it done for me.

[marlin.45]

Cheers for further info gents :)

Well the MidwayUK order arrived today so my 311291's have now run through the 450 and sit at .309". Belled one of the FL once shot cases with an inverted .303 FMJ head just enough to allow the sized CB to start.

Tried the CB head out as far as the action would allow it to cycle which was at 2.575". No sign of it touching the lands at that length but that is the max. it can go without single loading.

After sizing the CB bullets I retumbled them in Lee bullet lube and they are now drying out overnite ready for loading tomorrow and then onto Bisley Sunday to check them out at 100yds. Initially I will go with 25.0grn Varget over a CCI200 :)

Have yet to order another set of dies and now find that the C-H dies do have a crimp function. If I stay with a FL set and these C-H are good then I may just get a Lee universal deprimer and have done. M-die is a few weeks away from arriving.

[marlin.45]

C-H is good stuff and still in business. -MADE IN USA- (thank you very much)

Are there any commercial die sets not 'made' in the USA? :bigsmyl2:

[Shakey Jakey]

Rumor has it that RCBS is out- sourcing some of their product but they are not very forthcoming with how much or what. Also, you might consider the Lee factory crimp die. With that and the universal case expander you shouldnt need much else (in the way of dies).

[marlin.45]

Would not surprise me Shakey - everyone seems to be doing it. Even my Co. now has sub assy made in India (badly). Even my new Triumph has large parts of it made in Thailand.

Just made up some sample loads using Varget and OAL to the crimp groove. 2.55" as spec'd in the Lyman manual. Good place to start. 5 rounds with loads of 28/29/30/31 grn. steps. Hogdon state a range of 29-33 grn. for a similar 170grn. head so a reasonable start point and the loads match others around the net and on here.

I will see if I can get sufficent lane time tomorrow AM to see how they run.

[WyrTwister]

Thanks for the post JFE.

Doing further investigation shows I should be expanding or belling the neck (as I do with .45LC :veryconfu). I can get an M-die here for 20GBP so not a biggy.

Just rechecked the swaged bullet dims from the muzzle and they are .300" and .305"! So should I resize - if so to what? All suggestions gratefully received so I can get an order out ;)

1 Couple of ideas . Borrow a set of 7.62 x 39 , .303 British , 7.62 x 54R , 7.65 Argentine , etc dies and run the brass into the resizing die just far enough to open up the mouth of the brass enough to accept the bullet .

2 Lee makes a universal neck belling die , to help start the bullet ( or use a tapered center punch , carefully , for an experiment ) .

3 Lee makes press mounted bullet sizing dies in a variety of calibers . If they do not have what you need , get a smaller one and hone it out the the desired size / ID .

We are talking about .30-30 ?

I load the largest cast bullet in my .30-30 , that will chamber successfully .

You are in the UK ? Howdy from this side of the pond . :-)

God bless
Wyr

PS The M dies are good too , but being cheap , some of the other solutions may be cheaper .

Also , I think my Lee 7.62 x 39 resizing die came with both .308" & .311" expander / depriming stems ?

Also , I use my Lee Universal Depriming die a fair amount . Especially to deprime dirty range brass before washing it . They are inexpensive over here & a great value .

[Philngruvy]

Great thread here guys. Thanks for all the info. I have had limited success with my 30-30 and I am taking the advice about the Lyman M die. Ordered one this morning off Ebay, a buy it now deal and it was brand new and cheaper than the price listed on the Lyman site.

[marlin.45]

Placed an order with Midway this morning for the Universal deprimer (as recommended), a Williams peep sight and better case lube than the Lee stuff I was using :o (just trashed another FL die in .243)

OK. Took the Varget loads to Bisley yesterday to test some grouping at 100 yds. But without a spotter at the target and using my buddy with a set of binos we couldn't make out the grouping from the other blasts from the other 19 guys earlier ;) factor in my inability with the original iron sights and the grouping would have been a farce anyway - hence ordering the Williams.

What I have proved are my loads feed fine, recoil is far higher than the factory PMC 170grn. loads and there are no pressure signs on the cases. Those are all pluses.

From the minus side there are heavy lead traces (took 8 passes of the jag soaked in Hoppes No.9 to clear the debris from 14 rounds. So twice tumble lubed in LLA needs a bit of a fettle. It's too cold in the workshop to use the lube facility on the 450 too (0-5 Deg.C).

So I will make up another batch of 29-31 grn. Varget and haul the lot up to my neighbouring farm then set up at 50 yds to group check with the current sights off a heavy bag .....that I didn't lug up to Bisley. Once the peep shows up I will drag the range out to 100 yds. Varget at 30+-0.5 grn. seems to be the sweet spot for most at that bullet weight from past searches.

WyrTwister,

I have a .303 2 die Lee set and an RCBS neck sizer in the same. So I will try that out :)

[peerlesscowboy]

........... It's too cold in the workshop to use the lube facility on the 450 too (0-5 Deg.C).
A strategicly placed heatlamp will allow the lube to flow better.

[marlin.45]

A strategicly placed heatlamp will allow the lube to flow better.

I thought of putting a blowtorch on it for a while (powders etc. well out of the way) and then found my gas carts were both empty ;)

Just did an extra tumble in LLA for now but will take a peruse over in the Lubes section. I have loads of pure beeswax and Bore Butter to hand so something should be able to be made that will fill the 3 deep grooves better than the LLA. A lot of the LLA gets wasted anyway. I clean the exposed part of the bullet head before insertion in the case.

[peerlesscowboy]

I thought of putting a blowtorch on it for a while (powders etc. well out of the way) and then found my gas carts were both empty ;)

Just did an extra tumble in LLA for now but will take a peruse over in the Lubes section. I have loads of pure beeswax and Bore Butter to hand so something should be able to be made that will fill the 3 deep grooves better than the LLA. A lot of the LLA gets wasted anyway. I clean the exposed part of the bullet head before insertion in the case.
I think a heatlamp would be better (safer), BTW Lyman makes a heating element that fits the 450 sizer/luber.
I'm using LBT "Blue" lube on my .30-30 bullets, that stuff needs heat even at room temperature.

John C. Saubak

[marlin.45]

Thinking about it I didn't clean the bore before testing the new load. I only use cast through it anyway and it must have had 20-40 rounds through since the last bore clean so my 'leading' comments above may be totally wrong :lol:


BTW Lyman makes a heating element that fits the 450 sizer/luber.

Now you mention it I recall seeing those but whether MidwayUK or anyone else over here sells one suitable for UK voltages (220-240vac).......:coffeecom I'll do a Google.

EDIT - MidwayUK retail the heater at £65+£9 shipping (120US) in either 110 or 220v. I will find an alternative heat source for now ;)

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

.309 might be a bit small for your bore. What size do they drop at? If they drop bigger I would alox lube them twice and shoot as cast as long as they would chamber. 29-31 of Varget might be a tad much for your alloy and/or bullet size with the leading you're describing. Are you using a gas check? I'm just sitting here trying to think of things you/we might be overlooking.
I was gone from the house for a couple of hours today to pick up some venison bologna the butcher shop had made for me. I got home and my wife was having a hissy fit and the house looked like a tornado had cut a swath thru it. It seems my Sweetie had opened the door to the deck for a little while because the temp had finally got up to 39 deg F and the house got a little too warm. A small bird flew into the house and my Little Jack did what Little Jacks do best when another critter invades their territory. I thought it was funny, my Sweetie, not so much...........

[Philngruvy]

my Little Jack did what Little Jacks do best when another critter invades their territory.

So did Little Jack get the bird?

[peerlesscowboy]

........... a Lyman 2660291 mold and dropped 50 good bullets with it last night with a good hard alloy of around 50% wheel weights. As cast without gas check they come out as .311".
If you can keep 'em as close as possible to .311" that'd be a good thing. I'd guess a nominal (312) sizing die for your 450 sizer/luber would do it. What you're trying to do here is just touch the sides of the castings hard enuf' to keep the lube in the grooves. I don't know if that would solve your leading problem but it might and it sure wouldn't hurt, .309" is unnessesarily small. FWIW, I'm running Ly31141's sized to .312" by a (313) sizing die and lubed with LBT "Blue", They chamber easily in all three of my .30-30 rifles. I've fired hundreds of them in my Marlin 336CB and two Winchesters without a hint of leading.

John C. Saubak

[marlin.45]

Bore was swaged with a soft lead bullet (cast .311/.312 with 50/50 .311") and that resulted in a max. diameter of .308. Using a .309" sizing die still leaves a good groove depth. With that in mind I tumble lubed with LLA again and this time it filled the lube grooves nicely. I may be barking up the wrong tree with leading so this time I will start with a clean'ish bore ;)

Chambering does not seem to be an issue as there seems to be a very long lead onto the rifling. My limit is the OAL/COL that will still allow the action to cycle.

Made up another batch of 29 & 30 grn. Varget loads and may be able to try these Friday if I scive off work and the weather co-operates.

Smoke-em, That post made me laugh :)

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

So did Little Jack get the bird?

No bird (this time) for Miss Reba, my little Jack. Mother grabbed it when it got tangled in the Living Room sheers/curtains. Miss Reba contested the win for a moment until Mother got the bird back outside. Miss Reba was sound asleep on her favorite chair when I got home. Mother looked like she had just gone 3 rounds with Mike Tyson. I was the one that got elected to put the curtains back up, under the close supervision of both, of course......................
Qualifying Statement - This answer pertains to bullet casting...... if I don't keep peace in the family this guy doesn't get any peace and quiet time to cast my bullets. This thread is therefore, officially, not hijacked..... [smilie=1:

[marlin.45]

Well the work scive happened today so amongst other jobs I managed to have a play with the loads again.

Unfortunately the Midway order has yet to arrive so the Williams No.5 so I am still on std iron sights but this time off a large Bull Bag on the bonnet of the Land Rover.

Stuck a black shoot-n-see in the center of a 2'x18" plain paper sheet and placed this at 40m. At least this should give me a clue how they are performing in comparison to the abortive test last Sunday.

29.0 grn. of Varget/CCI200/OAL 2.55"/Lyman 311291 GC sized to .309" and lubed with several coats of LLA. Enough to fill the grooves. Put a couple of std rounds down first just to get a clue on bullet placement.

5 rounds off the bag saw a vertical string of 1.5".

Load then as above but 30.0 grn Varget. This may have just been me but this put all 5 rounds within 1" - no stringing. Not good at that distance I know but a marked change from the -1 grn before.

Once the Williams arrived I should have a better change of aiming 'stability' to check groups out further. But this is the powder load I will set as a benchmark from now. So many things will change anyway. M-die will hopefully be here next month (Est. ETA end Feb!) and OAL can be tweaked out a tad too. Not much but there is about 25 thou spare. Plus shoot CB unsized at .311" - maybe?

But leading. 12 rounds down though a clean bore. It only took two runs through with a jag and No.9 and one dry to wipe through and it was clean. I would call that good? :holysheep

[405]

marlin.45,
Sounds all positive to me! Don't let the hype of internet chatter fool you.... 1" at 40m (darn near 50yd) with a 94 lever gun 30-30 with open sights IS good. The aperture rear should help take most of the sight picture resolution problems out of the equation. Also, you're cleaning routine sounds just about like I do whether I shoot 5 in an outing or 30. Good fitting patches over a jag with Hoppes 9 thru the muzzle with a good rod and muzzle guard- three solvent patches. One dry out patch and follow up with oil patch. If all is going well with the cast loads that's all it takes- about 10 minutes. With most jbullet loads... to get all the copper out- mercy, it may take an hour or more along with brushes, stronger solvents and many more patches. Ease of cleaning is one of the benefits of shooting cast bullets.

[marlin.45]

I had an impromptu 'range' day today and a chance to test out the Williams peep and the 30grn Varget loads. Unfortunately the backstop was set up for gallery rifle but at least I could get the Williams roughed in and also chrono the loads.

First check to use up my remained factory PMC loads saw the chrono at 1200fps and a 2" group from the 20" barrel. Poor but whatever else it is a baseline. Then switched to the Varget load. Chrono @ 1900-1950fps and....a 1/2" group at 35yds (1435ft/lb with 170grn head). Now I am roughed in I will see if I can step this distance out to 70 then 100mtrs at the end of the week :Fire::drinks:

PS - at the end of the test I placed a fluffy 6" toy at the back of the butts and let my shooting buddy have a couple of rounds. First shot saw 'Mr Cuddly' jump 30ft in the air. Colleague was most impressed after .22RF ;)

[hydraulic]

Marlin 45: If you continue to have leading, I'll bet it's caused by a bullet that is too hard. I shoot straight WW's with 27/4895. Also, if you have plenty of bee's wax, try my lube. 50 % bees wax, 40% canola oil, 10% crisco. This is a good black powder lube, but it works well with smokeless, too.

[marlin.45]

Cheers for that Hydraulic.

It seems with the current lube/bullet alloy 3-4 patches wetted with No.9 leave it clean. Lube wise I tumble twice in LLA plus some beeswax/axle grease combined lube I made up years ago for .45LC BP loads. :-P

[Char-Gar]

Marlin. 45... It is like poking a rattlesnake with stick to suggest on this board that LLA is not the answer to all issues, but being the daring sort I will suggest just that.

I started shooting cast bullets a generation or two before LLA hit the market. I have tried LLA on several occasions and I have never found it superior to conventional bullet lube and very often inferior. Ergo, I don't use the stuff!

I would not be surprised, if your problems, are related to your lube of choice.

[marlin.45]

TBH would you say 4 patches through is a problem after 20 rounds? Seems pretty good for now. But I do agree LLA is not a 100% fix but it works until I either mod the lubrisizer for heat or the weather improves (still hitting under 0 Deg.C in my garage/reloading zone).

New one this weekend. After going through my current case prep process after shooting (clean in soapy water/dry/full length resize/check case length/open case neck) it seems the cases are shrinking after 2-3 uses. After 1 use I put them in my Lyman case trimmer and trimmed to 2.025" to keep them all consistent. Went to check and the whole batch seems to be as near as dammit 2.022" or less?

Should I stop drinking my homebrew or....................:veryconfu

Also, I have now cancelled the M-die order. Midway UK have kicked the estimated arrival back for the third time to mid March so I will go with my current set-up for now.

[steve in kc]

Marlin 45: If you continue to have leading, I'll bet it's caused by a bullet that is too hard. I shoot straight WW's with 27/4895. Also, if you have plenty of bee's wax, try my lube. 50 % bees wax, 40% canola oil, 10% crisco. This is a good black powder lube, but it works well with smokeless, too.

I double lube with LLA on my C309-150-F (straight wheel weights) using 30.2 Gr of H4895. Holes touch at 50 yards and I get 1.5" at 100 yards and no leading shooting a 70's era 336.

[robertbank]

If you are up to it take a look at the recipe for Felix Lube. I found this lube to work extremely well in both rifle and pistol and eliminates the need for heat on your lubricator.

Take Care

Bob

[marlin.45]

For now the load is sorted and working fine - though I will be dabbling with lube as the weather is now starting to warm so the Lyman ideal lube stick I have in the 450 will now 'flow' with a bit of help.

Friday I managed to do some final zeroing out at 70 metres. After putting a couple of rounds through a clean bore and with the forend boucing off the bull's bag on the Land Rover hood it was delivering 2" groups. It would have been better but the Williams peep and my ageing eyes ;) were more of a limitation than the rifle and round.

Numrich also came through with assistance from one of my US work colleagues and a missing side screw from the receiver has also been refitted. Something like only $3.50 for the part. Bargain as I paid no shipping as it was 'internal mail'.

So the next plan of action is to cast up another batch of GC'd Lyman 311291 but I may soften the alloy a little. These will be lubed as cast in a small amount of LLA then sized to .309" in the 450 and the above lube injected into the grooves. A further light coating of LLA then left to dry. Bullet size was determined after slugging the barrel +1 thou.

In summary, this works for me.......


The PMC brass is full length sized (CH dies) then trimmed to 2.025". Neck is then nudged with a .303 British neck sizer to bell the mouth slightly.
30.0 grn. Varget with CCI200 LR primer
The above sized 311291 then fitted and COL to 2.55" within 2 thou


Out of my 20" barrel 1967 Win M94 this delivers an MV of 1950 fps.

My only concern is that the case lengths seem to be shrinking a few thou after 3-4 uses. Time will tell if they settle though. I have a new bag of Winchester brass when the PMC runs out.

MidwayUK still seem to be unable to deliver a Lyman M-die to suit but they do have the RCBS 3-die 'cowboy' die set in stock so I have just placed an order :)

[smithywess]

And I think you'll be pleased with your three die R.C.B.S. 'cowboy' set. My Marlin Model of 1893 slugs to 306" and I size a gas checked 150 grain flat nose R.C.B.S. bullet to .309" with a Lee bullet (custom) sizing die. I cast a homemade number 2 Lyman alloy which I water quench. That extra bit of tin added to the wheelweights just helps to fill the mould out. I double lube with alox as well and using I.M.R. 4198 behind the bullet described I've had good luck. The bullet is driven to 1850 f.p.second and I've not noticed any leading. It's certainly accurate to a hundred yards. The 4198 fills the case nicely and after handloading 9 different vintage rifle calibres I really think powders that only occupy small case volumes are plagued by position sensitivity. That said, my .30-30 Marlin likes Unique but it's fairly fast burning and that may be why. It isn't my first choice though.
good interesting thread. You sound to be having fun.