Thought you might like to see this

[Mike Venturino]

I thought some of you might like to see this photo. Unfortunately the MG42 is not mine but its owner visited in 2010 and at least I got to shoot and photograph it. Neither is the G33-40 mine either.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/Nicole2133.jpg

MLV

[Uncle Grinch]

All I can do is look and wish....

Thanks for the fold-out... ohh, I mean photo!

[home in oz]

Nice weapons!

[Buckshot]

..............So Mike, with which cast boolit load did that stuttergun do it's best work? :-) One of the members here, BruceB used to own and shoot a Bren and yes he tried cast in it. He may pipe up with the details, but I recall it NOT being a resou nding success:lol:

............Buckshot

[Shooter]

Has anyone ever figured out how far apart the bullets are when fired from a MG42?

[Gee_Wizz01]

Has anyone ever figured out how far apart the bullets are when fired from a MG42?

My calculations show they would be a 35 to 45 yards apart. Thats figuring that you are firing about 20 to 24 rounds per second and a muzzle velocity of approx 2800 fps. This is just a ball park estimate, but its probably fairly close.

G

[Johnch]

OH the dreams

I guess I can keep dreaming

Nice group to play with , even if only for a short while

Thanks for the pic

John

[Mike Venturino]

We didn't do it for the photo but in actually firing the MG42 we sandbagged in it. We also clocked its rate of fire with a PACT IV Timer. We got 1148 rpm. As for "groups" we put a 50 pound armored steel target at 100 yards on a stand four feet tall. Target size was 18" wide and 24" tall. It was no problem with a very short burst to hit it five or six times. What that did however was to turn that heavy target over backwards.

We were also shooting a Browning 1919A4 the same day. It clocked 505 rpm. With the slower rate a burst of 8 or 10 rounds could be kept on the target but it wouldn't knock the target over backwards. I found that very interesting.

It has often been written in WW2 history books that the MG42 was so deadly because no body ever got hit by one with just a single bullet. We also fired that MG42 on its bipod and that way bullets spread so much you can see how someone could have been in the middle of a burst and never got touched. Again very interesting.

As for cast bullets the 2nd group ever fired out of the K98k in the photo with the ZF41 scope was 1 1/2 inches. The first was 2 1/4 but I called the last shot a flyer. Load was SAECO #081, 185 grains of linotype, sized .325 inch, lubed with SPG, wearing a Lyman gas check, with a powder charge of 27 grains of 5744. No filler. Primer was Remington 9 1/2. Range was 100 yards.

MLV

[Von Dingo]

Very nice. Ze ammo bearers were kept varry busy.

So, the flurry of jabs were more punishing, than the steady jabs, in boxing terms, to the plate.

[BruceB]

I never did own the tripod for our MG42, but we sure gave it many good workouts at long range over water...out to 1500-plus yards. Even from the bipod, a five-round burst at a small rock sticking out of the lake 1200 yards away would put two in the water on the near side and two visible impacts in the water on the far side....I'd purely HATE to be standing on that rock!

Go to "Castpics" (bottom of this page) and click on "Projects". In my Scheutzenwagen report, the last photo shows my wife with the MG42 at an "undisclosed remote location" in the Territories. You will note that the gun is decidedly loaded, with the belt running up over her left arm and into the loading port on the left of the receiver... Photo was taken at a lake which is FAR off any trail or road. It's purely a fly-in site.

MG42 is REALLY is hard on brass! The high cyclic rate imposes severe stress on cases...the rim is bent to the rear by the extractor, and then bent to the front by the ejector. A juge, deep dent is inflicted on the case body by the ejection port, and then the case spins against the trigger guard which smashes the mouth flat. A few hundred rounds of that result cured me of handloading for the beast. As Buckshot mentioned, the Bren was not a success with cast bullets, either.

The MG42 cost us about $325.00 in the late '70s in Canada. Such a gun now, in the USA, runs in the $40,000 ballpark...yes, forty THOUSAND!

We had a lot of fun with our MGs, with access to bushplanes and millions of square miles with NO PEOPLE.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Mike,
Could we impose for a picture and some description of your Lewis Gun?? I was very intrigued when you mentioned you had a Japanese one on your New Years thread! [smilie=1:

It's the one MG that has alluded my attempts to get some trigger time with, and I'm very jealous! I often watch The Sand Pebbles, just for the Lewis Gun action. (Well, and the BAR action!! :mrgreen: )

[home in oz]

Were you able to keep the MG to two or three round bursts?

Like the M-60? (Which was drummed into me a long time ago...)

[Gunsmoke4570]

Great pic! Thanks for sharing.

[Multigunner]

I once ran across an article on the use of cast boolits in MGs.
The author was a licensed MG dealer in the 1960's and used cast bullet loads for exhibition firings to keep down ammo costs.

He had problems with the MG34 and MG42 due to the gas assisted recoil action.
The muzzle cap kept cloging up.
He altered a few spare barrels by turning grooves in the portion that rode in the cap. The grooves captured the lead and lube residue to allow longer firing between cleanings.

The Bren has its gasport set further back than the original Czech ZB parent design due to differences in burning rate of Cordite vs common smokeless propellents.
The gas pressure at the port may be high enough to cause more leading to be blown into the gas tube.
Theres a special scraper used to clear carbon from the Bren gas tube, it should work on leading as well.

[JudgeBAC]

Mike: thanks for the 5744 tip, I have been shooting it in my milsurps and have found it to be a great powder for cast in milsurps.

[Mike Venturino]

I've only got one photo of my Lewis gun so far but I'll try to get it posted tonight. The Japanese Navy licensed manufacture of Lewis guns from the British BSA company in 1932. They made them in both infantry and aircraft versions. Infantry ones had 47 round drums and wooden buttstocks and aircraft ones had 97 round drums and a rather strange handle for one hand and the pistol grip for the other. From what I can gather the rear seat gunners of Japanese dive bombers in WW2 used Lewis guns. Their army never did, again by what I can gather.

They had bipods and tripods for the infantry ones. They were chambered for the 7.7x56mm Japanese Rimmed cartridge. I almost didn't buy it for that reason until I found out that is exactly the same as .303 British. I've run about 500 rounds of handloads through mine so far and it has run like a top. No jams at all. I haven't cleaned it yet because I had no idea how to, but just received a reprint of a manual so I'll get it done soon.

That 5744 is indeed great stuff. By the way, there's a new book out titled THE GUN with its focus on assault rifle history, mainly the AK47. However, when it speaks of the M16 it talks about initial testing being done with a powder named IMR4475. When I was introduced to 5744 back in the early '80s by the fellow who started Accurate Arms Company (his name escapes me right now) he said that 5744 was left over from trials of 5.56mm but then it wasn't adopted as standard.

Thanks for looking at the photo. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. No way could I get off the trigger of that MG42 to let go 2 or 3 round bursts. Mostly they were 8 or 10.

Mike V.

[Dobetown]

Back when I did my summer camp in south east asia the rice propelled types were very fond of using the Mg 42 against helicoptors. With the high rate of fire they either missed or hit you with the whole burst.

[Multigunner]

Back when I did my summer camp in south east asia the rice propelled types were very fond of using the Mg 42 against helicoptors. With the high rate of fire they either missed or hit you with the whole burst.

Italian Helicopters use a modified MG42 as door guns these days last I heard.
The original MG42 is still in action in several countries. The Pakistan Ordnance Factory still manufactures barrels in both 7.62 and 7.92 along with rebuild parts, etc.

[Ilwil]

Back in 2003, I spent a year on active duty in Germany. I learned about a long-running exchange program where our guys and the Bundeswehr familiarized with each other's light weapons. I attended three such shoots, trying to win the coveted Bundeswehr shoulder cord that we could permanently wear on our class As if so awarded.
I thought the pistol and rifle legs were pretty easy. The machine gun part is really, really challenging. They still use the MG 42, with only different 3 minor internal part changes since 1945. The shooter gets a 15 round belt in a timed event, trying to get at least 3 hits on microscopic figures on a 25 meter distant board. I never got the machine gun leg, and I figured with 50 year old eyes, I never would. It was a lot of fun though. I got so I could 3-4 round bursts.
All of this underscored for me what the German infantryman has been all aboutsince WWI;. the machine gun and its firepower.

[nicholst55]

I saw several MG3s when I was training the Royal Saudi Land Forces in 1997, but I never got to fire one. Those boys were dangerous with unloaded guns, so I avoided them like the plague when they had ammo! The MG3 is essentially just a renamed MG42, as Ilwil recounts, above.

The RSLF had transitioned to the MG3 from the HK21E (http://www.google.nr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.hkpro.com/image/21BELT.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.hkpro.com/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26view%3Darticle% 26id%3D32:the-hk21e&usg=__sfhAsm04PTUmS-PE4PjzS4mrgbA=&h=219&w=484&sz=24&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=wTyymcC-gdszwM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=258&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhk21e%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26biw%3D 1280%26bih%3D685%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=131&vpy=90&dur=1828&hovh=151&hovw=334&tx=217&ty=67&ei=myAsTZGrHYn2swP1ibH4BQ&oei=myAsTZGrHYn2swP1ibH4BQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=19&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0) fairly recently when I was there.

[MakeMineA10mm]

I've only got one photo of my Lewis gun so far but I'll try to get it posted tonight. The Japanese Navy licensed manufacture of Lewis guns from the British BSA company in 1932. They made them in both infantry and aircraft versions. Infantry ones had 47 round drums and wooden buttstocks and aircraft ones had 97 round drums and a rather strange handle for one hand and the pistol grip for the other. From what I can gather the rear seat gunners of Japanese dive bombers in WW2 used Lewis guns. Their army never did, again by what I can gather.

They had bipods and tripods for the infantry ones. They were chambered for the 7.7x56mm Japanese Rimmed cartridge. I almost didn't buy it for that reason until I found out that is exactly the same as .303 British. I've run about 500 rounds of handloads through mine so far and it has run like a top. No jams at all. I haven't cleaned it yet because I had no idea how to, but just received a reprint of a manual so I'll get it done soon.

That 5744 is indeed great stuff. By the way, there's a new book out titled THE GUN with its focus on assault rifle history, mainly the AK47. However, when it speaks of the M16 it talks about initial testing being done with a powder named IMR4475. When I was introduced to 5744 back in the early '80s by the fellow who started Accurate Arms Company (his name escapes me right now) he said that 5744 was left over from trials of 5.56mm but then it wasn't adopted as standard.

Thanks for looking at the photo. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. No way could I get off the trigger of that MG42 to let go 2 or 3 round bursts. Mostly they were 8 or 10.

Mike V.

Thanks Mike! That's some history I did not know...

I take it you got the ground version?? (Let's see, Japanese Navy ground forces... Think that would be the Japanese Naval Landing Forces, a.k.a.: Japanese Marines!)

[Mossy Nugget]

der Hitler-Reißverschluss wurde gefürchtet und respektiert. I had the opportunity to see the Machinen Gewher zwei und fiertzigh at my local range this summer. Possibly the finest belt fed automatic in the war after the war to end all wars.

[Combat Diver]

Nice pics Mike,

I never got to play with an orginal MG42 but have loads of experince with the MG3. During my rotation to Iraq in 05-06' we were short on 7.62 MGs up at the Group Headquarters (all M240s went to the teams) so I took two Turkish MG3s out of our foreign weapons pool. Later I battlefield recovered a Iranian and Pakistani MG3. Even mounted the Turkish ones one our HUMVEES.
Range firing the Turkish MG3
http://www.hunt101.com/data/548/medium/9809050727-A-5603C-127_MGs_249-240-3.JPG
Iranian MG3 and a US M1919A6 (minus buttstock)
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/9809RPK_PKM_PPSh41_MG3_and_M1919A6_minus_stock.JPG
MG3 (with 50 rd side drum) used as secondary armament behind M2HB (2xM240 on rear of gun truck)
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/9809123_IMG.JPG
MG3 mounted on M998
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/9809IMAG0005_50_.JPG
M1919A6 mounted on same M998 (it is hard to find linked .30 cal even for SF)
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/9809M1919A6_on_M998.JPG

[Mike Venturino]

Combat Diver: Awesome! Thank you in so many ways.

Mike V.

[frank505]

Mike;
The original owner of Accurate Powders was named Claude Sonday. Bought a lot of 4831 from him and shot it all up instead of hoarding it.

[1Shirt]

Some great pics. Have enjoyed shooting full auto weapons (as long as I was not paying for the rounds). However am somewhat of the old school of "one shot, one kill meantality". There is also the reality of many automatic rounds equate to many misses (and of course probably some hits). Just my opinion!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Mike Venturino]

1 Shirt: You are so right about that WHEN the point is actually to hit something. I have an entire rack of single shot rifles.

The full-autos are the best way to turn money into noise ever devised. However, I have to say that never has a newcomer turned away from shooting one of mine without a big smile on their faces.

Frank: Thanks for remembering his name. I spoke much with him back in the day and bought at least a half dozen of those eight pound milk jugs of his 3100 (aka4831) back then. Then I got the BPCR bug and sold off most of it.

MLV

[wills]

It would be great to shoot one of those, if someone else is responsible for providing the ammunition.

[mroliver77]

I paid a few hours wages for a few seconds on the trigger of a FA down at Knob Creek. Some of the best excitement I have ever had with my pants on!
Mike you sure do have some neat toys!
Jay