High Velocity Liquid Alox???

[joecool911]

Don't ask me why, maybe because I do not have a lubrisizer. I am using Lee sizing dies and tumble lubing. But I want to try to avoid the lubrisizing process all together.

What kind of limitations will I have in relation to velocity? I shoot a variety of lever guns from 30/30 to 45/70. Plus 44 magnum and 10mm handguns, all with gas checks. Looking into a re barrel to 25/35.

[Molly]

Don't ask me why, maybe because I do not have a lubrisizer. I am using Lee sizing dies and tumble lubing. But I want to try to avoid the lubrisizing process all together.

What kind of limitations will I have in relation to velocity? I shoot a variety of lever guns from 30/30 to 45/70. Plus 44 magnum and 10mm handguns, all with gas checks. Looking into a re barrel to 25/35.

The only technology that I am aware of that will enable you to shoot cast lead bullets at more than about 150 to 200 fps without lube or paper patching is the use of a granular filler beneath the base of the bullet. I have used Cream of Wheat (CoW loads) with consisderable success, and others have reported success with Grex shotgun filler. Loaded properly, you can shoot maximum jacketed loads with cast bullets just as they drop from the mold, with no lube, no gas check, no sizing. (-Unless you have an oversize mold or a tight neck - then you might need to size so the round will chamber.)

The full details of these loads have been published before on this foum. Do a search. They have two drawbacks: 1) they leave the bore so dry and clean it can rust if you don't oil it when you're done shooting, and 2) they don't deliver match accuracy. Good hunting accuracy levels, but not match levels.

Some folks have reported good results with CoW loads in handguns, but I've never tried it.

[joecool911]

Maybe some clerification is needed. I want to continue with tumble lube and carry it throughout my cast bullet needs.

[Recluse]

Don't ask me why, maybe because I do not have a lubrisizer. I am using Lee sizing dies and tumble lubing. But I want to try to avoid the lubrisizing process all together.

What kind of limitations will I have in relation to velocity? I shoot a variety of lever guns from 30/30 to 45/70. Plus 44 magnum and 10mm handguns, all with gas checks. Looking into a re barrel to 25/35.

Boolit design also matters.

I load a Lee TL358SWC (non-g/c'd boolit) to .357 Magnum velocities using a 45/45/10 blend of LLA/JPW/MS and tumble lube.

Haven't tried that with .44 Magnum, and haven't had the best of luck tumble-lubing high-velocity rifle calibers.

Now, if you're using boolit designs that have traditional lube grooves, you can easily pan-lube. No lubesizer needed. Ranch Dog has had good luck with his larger slow-mover big boolits with dip-lubing. Not sure if he's tried that with the really fast-movers.

But if you're dead-set on using straight LLA with TL boolit designs, you're going to have to work your loads up and do a lot of testing to see where the leading/bad-accuracy curve begins.

Anything that is gas-checked, you should be just fine.

:coffee:

[Molly]

Ya got me fooled.

>I want to try to avoid the lubrisizing process all together
>I want to continue with tumble lube and carry it throughout my cast bullet needs.

So, if you know what you want to do, why are you asking for advice?

[randyrat]

I believe his intent is; he doesn't want to buy a lubrisizer and wants to continue tumble lube. He also would like to know the limitations of tumble lubing with Alox or LLA or a simple mix.
I hope that is what his question was....

The answer is; If everything is perfect I think you can go way past the limitations of most of your lead booits. It's tough to put a velocity number out there for you.
I think you should try and see for yourself where the limitations are.
Myself I can reach MY max velocity with my gun and my loads all using a very easy mix of carnauba wax, beeswax and LLA out of a 30-30, no leading with accuracy. Now your talking a 44 mag, you may want to experiment a little, make everything perfect first then try tumble lubing and see how far you can go with it.

[randyrat]

Wait a minute where did you find a gas check bullet mold for a .401 boolit (10 MM)

[joecool911]

Wait a minute where did you find a gas check bullet mold for a .401 boolit (10 MM)

Custom molds are all I can find. LBT or Accurate Molds.

I am looking to push the limits of tumble lubing. I believe that there is a lot of negative bias toward tumble lubing. Ranch Dog seems to be quite an advocate. Time will tell. I might give in someday, but for now I am on this path.

Next progression would be pan lubing.

[runfiverun]

you could dip like he does, but use the thicker xlox from lars, and thin a bit till you get the coverage you like.

[kelbro]

45/45/10 works fine in my 30/30 @ 2K fps with RanchDog's 165gr boolit. Accurate and no leading after 20 shots.

[onondaga]

Hi, I am not convinced there is a velocity limit for LLA or the 45-45-10 lube mix. I use them both at high velocity of 2600 for a 160 grain flat nose gas checked bullet and 2500 for a gas checked 175 grain spire in a .308 win. The flat nose is the Lee 150 gr that weighs 160 with lube and check and 2 coats of undiluted LLA after size/check is installed. That bullet is designed for conventional lube with grooves. The heavier spire is a Lee tumble lube design that also casts heavy. Both bullets are cast with 24 BHN alloy as tested with a Lee hardness tester and my mix is 7 parts WW and 3 parts Lino and sized .309 for my rifle..

I think two coats after size/check is important at rifle velocities, Lee recommends that. I also apply one coat before size/check for a lubricant in the size die. That can leave a pretty sticky bullet with straight LLA and I am phasing to the 45-45-10 as I shoot up my supply of loaded ammo The 45-45-10 dries in 5 minutes and is not sticky. A second coat of LLA can take 2 days to get a little less sticky but never really dries for me like 45-45-10 does in minutes

The hard alloy and lube combination are working for me at the those velocities with no leading. I kept at it with these two bullets and worked these loads gradually while checking accuracy over an entire summer with many trips to the club. For my rifle, more powder for another 100 fps in these loads opens the groups up. I didn't spend any time to see if the inaccurate loads would lead up my rifle, but the accurate ones definitely don't lead my bore at 2500 and 2600 fps and the faster of the two loads uses a bullet not designed for tumble lube.

Rifle quality is likely part of the results for me also. The rifle is a Sako sporter and the bore has a superior slick smooth shine finish on both lands and grooves.

There is a lot of variables, get your duckies in a row and see what your rifle will do.

Working a load up for your own rifle does work to find your accuracy sweet spot. My friend was very impressed with what my Sako does and just had to try some of my loads in his Remington 40 XBR in the same caliber. They weren't impressive in his rifle at all. He was hoping he could just duplicate my load and get the same results. He is not very experienced with cast bullets but beginning to understand and convert.


Gary

Gary

[Boolseye]

+1 on TL for all your boolit needs. I haven't outgrown it yet...granted I'm a newbie meself.
So far I've used it for full power .357 loads, full power .44 mag out of a rifle w/ GC (+1500fps) and full power 9mm. All have shot well, with acceptable leading. Yes, there is some leading, but a couple passes with a bore brush and it's shiny again.

[rintinglen]

I have tumble lubed many thousands of cast boolits. Now, if you are going to shoot fast, you need heavy coats, preferably two or more light ones combined, and properly sized boolits. But with those caveats, you can shoot over 2300 feet per second with pretty fair accuracy. I have shot hundreds of 311-041's out of my 30-30's over 34 grains of WW 748 for 2220 FPS from a 26 inch barrel.
i use that as a ram load for Lever action silhouette. Louverin bullets work very well when lubed this way. I have shot quite a few 311-467's out of my old springfield 03 sporter at speeds up to 2400 fps without significant leading.
Properly sized boolits don't seem to care how you lube them, as long as the lube is enough to get the job done.

[saz]

Just to clarify some terminology first. The 45/45/10 that Recluse came up with is absolutely top notch; I call it Rec-Lox. I mixed one batch to try and it is all I use for tumble lubing anymore. I use it on tumble lube design boolits and regular grease groove boolits also with wonderful results. The hardest I have pushed it is in my Puma 92 in 454- with a stout load of LilGun and a 340gr boolit at 1900fps there was NO leading. But I think the reason is two fold-

1. Properly sized boolits don't seem to care how you lube them, as long as the lube is enough to get the job done.

2. The Rec-Lox is a great lube. Just make sure you get it on right.......

What I mean is 2-3 thin coats is a lot better than one thick coat. If your boolits look like they have been dipped in the gravy boat at thanksgiving dinner, than your lube is WAY TOO THICK. I know this from many overlubed boolits. It doesnt work as well with too much on the boolit. Doesnt make sense, I know. But that is the way it is- trust me! Read the sticky by Recluse and do yourself a favor and mix up a batch and you will not be sorry.

[joecool911]

Very encouraging.

When you are talking 2-3 thin coats, are you talking applying and letting them thoroughly dry and re coat or just keep going at one session?

I have not worked up anything for my 454 Puma yet, but I am encouraged by your experience. Sounds great!

[saz]

2-3 coats letting them dry. The rec-lox mix dries WAY faster than straight LLA. I can usually coat a big batch of boolits 3 times in one day, especially if you heat up the boolits a little before the first coat. It makes it dry even faster.

[JIMinPHX]

I've used LLA over 2,000fps with good results. I just avoid the stuff because I don't like the smell & I don't like waiting for it to dry.