lino/ pure mix question

[RU shooter]

Last summer on my last smelt I mixed up these two approx 3-4 to 1 . It "should" be approx. quite similar to clip on WW alloy minus the Arsenic. Question is what am I loosing(or gaining) by not having the arsenic in that new alloy? Will it still harden by water quenching if I choose to do that?

Tim

[*Paladin*]

Good question, because I will be alloying lino and pb here soon myself.

[Matt_G]

You changed the question after I answered it.
So here is a new answer.

No, Arsenic is not necessary in order to heat treat lead alloys. If present it will allow the alloy to obtain a greater degree of hardness with less antimony than it would otherwise, but it's not a necessary component.

[RU shooter]

I made a mistake in the original post , I meant to write lack of Arsenic instead of antimony I edited the original posting.

[onesonek]

Was that 3-4 to 1 lino/pure pb as in your header,,, or 3-4 to 1 pure pb to lino. If as the first, you will have more antimony than ww's. If the second,,,, 3 pb to 1 lino comes about the same as ww's. Depends on the depletion level of the lino if not certified.
"not having the antimony in that new alloy?"
Your still going to have some Sb at a 4/1 - pb/lino mix


(after post addition)

Arsenic is a hardening accelerator, and shouldn't change the level of hardness from what I understand

[Matt_G]

Arsenic is a hardening accelerator, and shouldn't change the level of hardness from what I understand

Correct, it won't change it in and of itself.
In the NRA publication Cast Bullets, there is an article by Dennis Marshall that I'm sure many here have read.
In it he gives an example of how Arsenic increases the hardenability of lead-antimony-tin alloys.
He took an Alloy "A" with 5% Sb and 0.17% As in it and heat treated it at 482 F for 2 hours. After 3 days it measured a Meyers hardness of 37.2 +- 1.1.
Alloy "B" was 4.4% Sb and a negligible amount of As. It was heat treated at the same temp for the same amount of time and after 3 days measured a Meyers hardness of 24.3 +- 0.5

So Alloy "A" ended up about 50% harder than Alloy "B". That is a much greater increase than the 0.6% increase in Sb can explain. It's because of the As in it.
He states that amounts of As ranging from 0.05% to 0.5% will do the trick.

FWIW.

[lwknight]

Matt , you said that Marshalls' test was done on the 6th day. Did he ever report the results after 30 days? We won't know for sure what As did untill sufficient time for age hardening has past.
That report sounds a little dramatic for reality. Arsenic greatly accelerates the hardening for sure and unarguably.
Another question : Is the Meyers scale linear? Is a 50% higher number really 50% harder?

[Matt_G]

Matt , you said that Marshalls' test was done on the 6th day.
I made a mistake here, it was three days.

Did he ever report the results after 30 days? No, he did not.

Another question : Is the Meyers scale linear? Is a 50% higher number really 50% harder?According to the article, yes it is linear. Using Meyers formula in this hardness range basically gives numbers that are the same as Brinell hardness plus 1.
i.e. if the BHN is 15, the Meyers hardness would be 16.
He was testing Lee C309-170F boolits. The normal 10mm ball used for standard brinell testing was too big so he substituted a 1.17mm diameter ball and used a 4 Kg. load; then used the Meyers formula
If we could use subscript and superscript BB code I would post the Meyers formula.
Here a link to a book on google books with the formula though:
Meyers formula is 5-6 on this page. (http://books.google.com/books?id=GRQC8zYqtBIC&pg=PA341#v=onepage&q&f=false)

[runfiverun]

think of arsenic as a catalyst.
it's like adding dimethylanaline to fiberglass resin.
the resin /hardener mix will harden on it's own.
the addition of d.m.a. speeds up the process and makes a harder shell.

[lwknight]

So we know and understand that As will accelerate the hardening of Sb and that As does not harden alloy on its own merits.
It takes a few weeks for Sb alloy to reach its potential hardness.
So the question is , does As really cause Sb to harden more than it would without it if enough time were given for the full effect.

[RU shooter]

Thanks All,As I was corrected again yes its 4 parts pure to 1 part lino. Looks like it will be a good alloy for me as is ,I usually dont worry about hardening boolits anyways so the lack of Arsenic wont effect anything for my use.

Thanks,Tim

[runfiverun]

i am not sure.
the way i understand it is how i splained it.
it helps it happen faster.
i don't know if the regular alloy will catch up. or pass it or hold it longer.

[johnly]

I mix 15 pounds of isotope lead with 2 pounds of linotype and the alloy casts really nice bullets.

John