Reduced Unique loads out of 1895 Marlin

[MikeG70]

Hi Y'all, I have seen a lot of 45-70 loads using reduced amounts of Unique. I emailed Ben at Alliant and asked him if these loads were safe to shoot. I started about 12 and went up to15 gr. His answer was: "We have no data on the loads you asked about and I suggest you use RL-7. My question to y'all is, just how safe are these loads to shoot out of my Marlin 1895?

Mike

[dla]

Check this site out for put-put load information
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[MikeG70]

Sorry, I have 300 and 405 LRNFPGC bullets on hand and they are hand cast.

Mike

[PatMarlin]

Mike-

Pick up a copy of Richard LEE's Modern Reloading, the current addition and there you'll find how to safely work up reduced loads for any cast boolit weight and caliber.

[rintinglen]

When it comes to 45-70 cast boolits and Unique, well I'm a believer. I've only shot a few hundred--a year--for the past 7 years. Maybe I've just been lucky, but Lyman has been publishing Loads for the 45-70 using unique since before I was born. Now I realize that they did not include any in their latest installment of cast boolit loads, but I, and many others, have used 10 to 15 grain loads with 300 and 320 grain boolits. In their 47th edition, they show a 457-191 developing 1200 fps with a 12 grain load @13,000 psi. I've shot a lot of these, with good accuracy out to 100 yards. RCBS also listed Unique loads in their cast boolit book.

[MikeG70]

Thanks for all the information and keep adding to it.

Mike

[MikeG70]

What do y'all think of the use of fillers with these loads?

Mike

[Lloyd Smale]

im surely no expert but ive shot propable at least a 1000 in marlins with as little as 7 grains using a 405. ive probably shot the same amount using 3 grains of bullseye and a 300 grain bullet for a gallery load and have never had a problem.

[stubert]

http://stevespages.com/458_1_385.html

[peerlesscowboy]

What do y'all think of the use of fillers with these loads?

Mike
In my experience fillers aren't needed nor advantageous with these Unique loads. I've shot many .45-70, Ly457191 propelled by 10.5 gr Unique ignited by a std large pistol primer. 1100 fps.
The biggest thing to watch for is double charging, it'd be real easy to accidently double charge a case if you weren't paying attention. When you're loading them, use some foolproof routine to prevent that.

John C. Saubak

[dla]

What do y'all think of the use of fillers with these loads?

Mike

I have never needed filler with any of the pistol powders I've tried. I've measured them over my Chrony tip-up-shoot, tip-down-shoot and I've not seen a difference in velocity until I got down to around 5gr and less of Clays. I've pretty much always used WLR primers in my 45-70 and they seem plenty hot enough for the various put-put loads I've tried.

My favorite plinker is a 500grain'er pushed by 7 gr of Hodgdon Clays which yields 750fps from my Guide Gun. I just happen to have a bunch of undersized fodder that won't shoot worth beans at speed, but is very accurate at plinker speeds.

[MikeG70]

To all of you that answered this thread, thank you.

Not for one minute did I feel my fellow shooters would do anything to damage themsevles or their firearms. I thought is was odd Alliant had no data on the loads I requested so then here is the horse's mouth telling me to go to another powder to get the results I was looking for.
OK, what was I to think at that point ?

If you have a favorite load in this area, please lay it on me.

Mike

[thx997303]

Ten grains to Fifteen grains Unique is what I have seen suggested over and over.

I just so happen to use 15 gr of Unique under a 350 gr Ranch dog boolit.

Shoots great, and gets me 1300 fps.

I use it for deer hunting.

[Maven]

"My question to y'all is, just how safe are these loads to shoot out of my Marlin 1895?"

Mike, The late Frank Marshall, Jr. (Cast Bullet Association) used to recommend 13grs. Unique (NO filler) in the .45-70. I've tried it in my Marlin (also without filler) and was completely satisfied with it: Little recoil, excellent accuracy, no leading.

[Tom-ADC]

Sorry, I have 300 and 405 LRNFPGC bullets on hand and they are hand cast.

Mike

Lymans 47th shows 300 gr (292) using 12.0 tart & 15.o max & 400gr 13.7 start & 16.5 max these are for 1895 only not trapdoor's etc.

[MikeG70]

This is great, more information and I appreciate them all very much.

Mike

[Shulse]

Quote:
Not for one minute did I feel my fellow shooters would do anything to damage themsevles or their firearms. I thought is was odd Alliant had no data on the loads I requested so then here is the horse's mouth telling me to go to another powder to get the results I was looking for.
OK, what was I to think at that point ?

If you have a favorite load in this area, please lay it on me.

Mike

Hey mike,' I ran into this same problem with Alliant. I wanted to make some low noise 30 Carbine loads for my Blackhawk using Hornady 100 gr short jacket bullets and Unique. The guy at Alliant said they had no data and said I could not use Unique for 30 Carbine. I found Speer has a nearly identicle bullet and load data in their manual using that bullet and Unique so I used it with the Hornady bullets and it is the best thing that ever happened to my 30 Carbine Blackhawk. If Alliante doesn't have much data for Unique anymore, maybe they should remove "The Most Versatile Powder Made" from the label. My old Lyman manual shows Unique in nearly every cartridge.

Steve

[MikeG70]

Steve, back at you.

When I started reloading 50 years ago, one could look in one loading manual for a certain load and the rest would show pretty much the same data. Now they are all different by a long shot. Granted formulas have changed but I would not think data would change as much as it has.

I read Bob Shell's blog on Unique and he shoots it in every gun he owns. If Alliant does away with Unique, I'm sure there are going to be a lot of unhappy reloaders.

Until next time,

Mike

This why I like to talk to others and compare loads and ask questions regarding new ones.

[TCLouis]

If you are worried about the safety of the light Unique loads, DON'T use them, do what the powder company rep said to do.

BUT

You knew that was coming didn't you?

as I have posted here many times

350 Ranch Dog (378 in my alloy) 10.5 milsurp (thinks it is Unique) and WLP (NO filler) moseying out about 1100 fps is very Accurate load

[Shooter6br]

10 grains with 350 g Ranchdog is a nice 50 yrd "gallery" load in my Ruger NO 1 45-70

[MikeG70]

TC,

With all the information these good people have given me, I feel very comfortable going with 10/15 Gr of Unique in my 45-70 loads with the correct weight bullet. But,yes, you are very right, if one one is concerned about the safety of a load, they should try another.

Mike

[Tom-ADC]

Mike if you haven't invested in a couple of loading manuals say Lyman, Speer etc I highly recommend you pick a couple up.

[MikeG70]

Tom,

Yes, I do have loading manuals from Speer, Hornady, Sierra, Hodgdon, Alliant and Lyman Cast Bullet 3rd Edition but none of them talked about the reduced Unique loads I was looking for. Now with all the help y'all gave me, I have Richard Lee's reloading manual and the 4th Edition Lyman on the way.

If you know of others that are helpful in this area, please let me know.

Mike
USMC 1961 - 1965 and am proud to be a Marine.

[MikeG70]

Tom,

Darn it, I forgot one. The Lyman Reloading Manual 49th edition is on its way to me also.

Good Night all,

Mike

[Lloyd Smale]

i think for the most part the powder manufactures are conserned that in loading light charges someone might substitute a jackted bullet for a cast and stick one in the barrel.

[Heavy lead]

I like Alliant powders, but frankly their testing and data sucks. Hodgdon has much better data available on there website, as far as that goes Accurate does too. I use a ton of Unique and always will, also Reloader 22. I would use more of their powders if they provided more data, especially for shotgun loads.

[PatMarlin]

Tom,

Yes, I do have loading manuals from Speer, Hornady, Sierra, Hodgdon, Alliant and Lyman Cast Bullet 3rd Edition but none of them talked about the reduced Unique loads I was looking for. Now with all the help y'all gave me, I have Richard Lee's reloading manual and the 4th Edition Lyman on the way.

If you know of others that are helpful in this area, please let me know.

Mike
USMC 1961 - 1965 and am proud to be a Marine.

What LEE does is explain and how different types of powders work with cast boolits, with many examples using 30 caliber for instance, but you get a real understanding and insight that not many other reloading manuals go into.

For instance:

Suggestions from Richard Lee in his book Modern Reloading...

Loading a reduced "too Little" powder charge load with very slow powder and large rifle cases can be a dangerous pressure spike situation, so he offers this info... Quote-

"A very conservative guide line would be to limit charge reduction to 20% for the slowest powder on the Burning Rate Chart (he's refering to the burning rate chart listed in his book which is an extensive list of common powders). You may increase the reduction by 1% for each preceeding 30 powders on the chart. Limit total reduction to 50% for the rest except for greatly reduced squib loads. Load these with a very fast but extremely light load."

[MikeG70]

Good Morning All,

Glad to receive more imput on this thread and if I were in the powder production business I would also try cover all the bases. There are those out there that do push beyond the limits and that is when trouble starts.

Good shooting,

Mike

[MikeG70]

HeyY'all,

I have a question for you to see if we are thinking the same. Using Unique with 300 & 405 lrnfp bullets and you had to pick one charge to use in both, what would it be? This load would be only to plink with.

Mike

[crabo]

I would be trying to change the powder charge to make both boolits hit at the same point of aim at a certain distance, say 50 yards.

[mpmarty]

I recently ran a "test" of Unique and 350gr Ranch Dog boolits.
All were tumble lubed in 50/50 LLA JPW.

12GR UNIQUE 1114 fps, 1117 fps
13GR UNIQUE 1158 fps, 1134 fps 1042 ft lbs energy
14GR UNIQUE 1202 fps, 1230 fps 1176 ft lbs energy

All out of a 22" barrel 1895 Marlin circa 1974
No leading whatsoever.

I never use filler with Unique nor with any other powder I load in 45/70

[PatMarlin]

I would be trying to change the powder charge to make both boolits hit at the same point of aim at a certain distance, say 50 yards.

Just read an old article from John Barsness on that very thing. Loading to the sites of the rifle. He said Towsend Whelen was big on that. One rifle, 2 loads for small and large game. Both hit point of aim.,

[crabo]

I did this with my pb plinker and GC hunting loads in my 44 mag.

[MikeG70]

I guess the thing to do is load the 405 first and then load the 300 down to that point of impact.

Mike

[MikeG70]

My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition arrived today in the mail. I was surprised to see that Unique is no longer mentioned in any of their 45-70 loading data.

Are they trying to tell us something or what do you think?

Mike

[peerlesscowboy]

My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition arrived today in the mail. I was surprised to see that Unique is no longer mentioned in any of their 45-70 loading data.

Are they trying to tell us something or what do you think?

Mike
I think the lawyers won

[WARD O]

A good friend has one of the modern manufactured Bulldog gatling guns - it is full size and is chambered for the 45-70. The manufacturer recommends Unique and last year I loaded over 3,000 rounds of a 400 gr RN over 13 grains of Unique. We've been shooting it in the gatling and in a couple of different Shiloh sharps rifles with very good results - it is very accurate and clean burning. I picked a boolit that seats rather deep as it reduces the powder space and keeps the powder together more to promote consistent ignition.

Ward

[peerlesscowboy]

I have stacked before me the last four editions of the "Lyman Reloading Handbook", that's the general reloading manual including both cast & jacketed loads. Somewhere between the 47th (published 1992) and the 48th (published 2002) ALL those reduced rifle loads using Unique and other shotgun/pistol type powders were eliminated. So.........do ya' think that after all these years this 130 year old company has decided it had been publishing dangerous loads? Or did the company's lawyer advise them that some moron might double charge a .45-70 case with Unique, blow up his gun and hurt himself and then sue the **** out of the company?

John C. Saubak

[PatMarlin]

I vote lawyer moron.

[MikeG70]

Thanks for your imput and I agree the lawyers have prevailed on this one. What a pitty future, shooters will not have documented data from Lyman on the use of Unique in this application. Well then, I guess it is up to those who know better to get the word out.

Has any one heard when Marlin products are going to hit the market again? I have a Classic 1895 on order with my source here and was wondering how long it will be or if I will ever see it.

Hope y"all had a good day,

Mike

[peerlesscowboy]

FWIW, IMO, there ->is a potential pitfall with these loads, that is the danger of double charging because you can't easily detect a double charge visually. I recommend developing some foolproof method of charging the cases. What I do is;

Take each primed case separately and while it's in hand, first turn it upside-down to insure it's empty, then drop in the powder charge put it in the press and seat the bullet. That way each one in turn never leaves my hand or attention between the time I KNOW it's empty and the time the bullet's seated. Another method might be just as good or better but just keep in mind that that tiny 10 grain powder charge could be hard to tell from 20 grains way down in the bottem of that cavernous ol' .45-70 case.

John C. Saubak

[PatMarlin]

You can also triple check by weighing your cartridges when you're done, once you know the correct average weight. 10-13 grns over and there's a problem in paradise.

[MikeG70]

John & Pat,

Yes, those are two good ways to avoid a double or triple charge.

John, My thoughts are along with yours dump the charge, seat the bullet, and never let it out of your hand until the case is sealed.

Pat, Your idea is great also. I plan to make a round complete except for the powder. Then scale and tare it. Next scale the fully loaded round and say you want 14.0 and it reads 13.9 or 14.1 you are alright but if it reads around 28 or higher one better look for their bullet puller.

Just my ideas,

Mike

[mpmarty]

I load one at a time and as was said, charge powder and seat a boolit immediately to avoid problems. I'm going to get a conversion setup for my Dillon 550B and start using it for 45/70 also.

[MikeG70]

Marty,

We all seem to feel that one at a time is the safest way to with these reduced loads.

Mike

[XWrench3]

i shoot a lot of bullseye powder loads. the scary thing about using pistol powder is an accidental double charge. that would certainly ruin your day, and probably the gun.

[thx997303]

FWIW, IMO, there ->is a potential pitfall with these loads, that is the danger of double charging because you can't easily detect a double charge visually.


Left is 30 gr unique, right is 15 gr unique.

http://i312.photobucket.com/albums/ll331/thx997303/100_2770.jpg

If you actually LOOK inside the case, it's rather obvious.

[donald duck]

Enjoyed reading about everyones use of Unique. I use 5.2 grains Unique behind my own cast 120 grain w/ GC from an Old Lyman Ideal Mold. My 7 MM TCU 10 inch T/C Barrel is accurate, fun and inexpensive to shoot. I am having a new Savage Axis (Edge) in .223 re barreled to 7 MM TCU. I will increase the powder a few grains as the new rifle will have 22 inch barrel.

[hornetguy]

I followed the advice from the experienced 45-70 shooters here, and loaded up some of my Lee HB boolits with 15gr of Unique. No filler. This target is the first 5 shots at 50 yds from my 1895SS with scope.
Primers didn't show any flattening, recoil was moderate, perfectly comfortable. This one might well become the standard for me and this boolit. I am also going to try it with my 350 RD, as soon as I get some cast up.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v306/hornetguy/45-70targets006.jpg

[PatMarlin]

Thar's a beauty.

[peerlesscowboy]

Left is 30 gr unique, right is 15 gr unique.

http://i312.photobucket.com/albums/ll331/thx997303/100_2770.jpg

If you actually LOOK inside the case, it's rather obvious.
I was thinking more of 10gr vs 20gr. -------FWIW

[lylejb]

From lyman 45th edition (1970)

45/70 Gov, trap door springfield models

405 gr jacketed Remington

unique 11.0 gr 890 fps to 15.0 gr 1223 fps

385 gr cast #457124

unique 10.0 gr 1048 fps to 15.0 gr 1335 fps

482gr cast # 457406 with GC
unique 9.0gr 892 fps to 13.0 gr 1114 fps

from the 1886 Winchester section:

292 gr cast #457191

unique 18.0 1497fps to 20.0gr 1689 fps

385 gr cast #457124

unique 14.0gr 1244 fps to 17.0 gr 1408 fps


482gr cast # 457406 with GC

unique 13.0gr 1112 fps to 16.0gr 1242 fps


AS always, It's your responsability to work up loads safely. use at your own risk. This is the data published by Lyman in the 45th edition reloading handbook, 1970.

[MikeG70]

What do y'all think of "The Load" in regards to the 45-70 in 405 cast?

Good shooting,

Beer Baron

[randyrat]

Check this site out for put-put load information
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm
"If in doubt use UNIQUE" and DO check this web site out that was noted earlier. I had lost this site a while ago, glad to see it again. I can see why your asking about loads using Unique., you can't beat the stuff.

[Captain R]

I use a lot of unique in 45/70.... here's one thing I always do.... I measure a specific charge that I want and then put it in the primed case. Next, I place a 3" "square cut" dowel (3/8 or 7/16") in the case on top of the powder and scribe a line at the case mouth. After writing the charge above the line, I check every case that I load before placing and seating the bullet. Significantly light or heavy charges are easy to see and go back into the hopper. Keep in mind, WW cases have different internal volume than Star line or others.... there will be small, but predictable differences in powder levels between brands trimmed to the same lengths. Shoot safe.

[ShooterAZ]

Would Trail Boss be worth looking at in the 45-70? I have used it in several rifle calibers including 30-06 and 7.62x54R with good results. Not possible for a double charge in this one.

[thx997303]

I was thinking more of 10gr vs 20gr. -------FWIW

Same idea.

15 gr x 2 = 30 gr.

10 gr x 2 = 20 gr.

Similar ratio, similar visual.

[SlippShodd]

After a long hiatus from cat-sneeze loads in the 45-70, I recently loaded some with 12 grains of Unique behind an oversized pistol boolit (260 gr.) for my 1895SS and they were tons of fun, shooting to the sights out to 85 yards and a touch beyond. I've used this same load up to 330 gr. cast in the past with satisfactory results. I used a small tuft of Dacron just because that was how I was instructed years ago... now I'll have to try it without the filler. Wouldn't mind eliminating an extra step if it's not necessary.

mike

[Iowa Fox]

When I first loaded for the 45-70 I used an old 456192 Ideal I picked up long before to cast the bullets. I went to my old Lyman manual and picked out a load of 13 grns of Unique. It did so well for me that I have never changed or tried anything else. Lyman never mentioned filler in their old manuals.