2 .429 balls in a .44 Mag

[Reg]

Back in the early 60's in my fun spent youth a bunch of us would shoot about anything we could throw togeather down near a rail road bridge just east of town.
Some of the things we would concoct scares me with the thought today but one that was used has me to wondering. One friend had a Tiger carbine that had been converted to .44 mag. and one day came up with the idea of putting two .429 round balls in a case and see what would happen. It actually worked quite well. The load wasn't very hot nor really precisely accurate but up to 100 to 150 feet would place those two balls within about two inches of each other and what it would do to a rabbit had to be seen. I never knew the process or load only how it worked.
My question.
Has anyone out there ( in a moment or boredom or whatever ) ever tried such a thing ? If so, how did you do it , what was the load? How was your results?
What did you use for sealing or wads ? Were you on homemade wine at the time (grin )?
Just a thought from a world from long ago.

[smilie=s::bigsmyl2:[smilie=s:

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Weigh the two . Check a loading manual for weight equivalent loads. work up. I have done this for 38 Special with two .358 balls and it does shoot close in a revolver out about 15 yards. BvT

[timkelley]

Reg, go to the Search Function at the top of the page, type in 'roundballs' and you will get about 50 pages of round balls of one type or another.

[jeff100]

Over the Christmas break I read Fourty Years with the 45-70 by Paul Matthews, he talks about trying this using a .45 Colt mould to cast round balls, shot a two ball load in his .45-70 rifle. Chapter 8.

Jeff

[firefly1957]

Just weighing the balls is not enough for using a "book" load as case capacity is greatly reduced . you will probably end up using a light charge of a fast powder and because of the small bearing surface of a round ball you will want to keep velocity low. Balls do tend to compress when fired this way and MAY have more surface on the rifling then you expect it is still not a lot. you may also find the use of a larger ball needed to get any accuracy some lead will shave off as you seat balls this is good in this case.

[theperfessor]

I used to load double ball loads in my .44 Special Bulldog. The balls weigh about 123 grs each so it worked out to be the same weight as a standard factory load. As I recall I used a starting load of Bullseye. Put in powder charge, put in first ball with seating stem screwed down to get top of ball below top of case, scraped in a little bullet lube, and then seated the top ball so it would be just below the hemisphere line. Make sure the top ball pushes the bottom ball down as it seats so there is no gap between them. Finish with slight roll crimp. Even though the balls seat deeper in the case than a regular 240-250 gr slug the base of the bottom ball is round, not flat, so you get a little volume back.

Once bet I guy that was using a slicked up 1911 that I could draw and put 10 holes in a silhouette target faster than he could. He thought we would both have to reload and of course he would be able to do it faster than I could with a revolver. He got a little pissed when I put 10 holes in the target in 5 shots and showed him how I did it.

Out to about 15 yards the balls would strike within a couple inches of each other. Can't help but think that two .44 holes created simultaneously might be a pretty effective stopper load for defense purposes.

My only warning would be to start low, make sure both balls clear the barrel as you work up, and make sure the balls stay in contact in the case so the top ball doesn't create an "obstruction" in the gun. That's usually not a problem as the case get thicker and in a revolver the recoil causes the bottom ball to move, if it does at all, up against the top ball.

I cast mine in a Lee mold using AC WWs, shot several hundred of them and never had any problems.

[Reg]

The load Murf used was a lite load more out of fear of blowing things up more than anything I am sure. As I recall he did use a .44 gas check , skirt down, in the case first but the way I read it here that isn't required. Might even be a problem it would look like.
Looks like this idea does have some merit or at least some fun factor. Think I have a ball mold in the pile somewhere. Will have to dig it out and give this a try .
I do thank all for the info.

:drinks:

[Chihuahua Floyd]

I've done it in both 44 Mag and 357 Mag. I even still have a partial box of Remington 357 Mag Multiball Loads. "Two 70g 000 buckshot, 140 g payload."
The Lyman M die works well for any cast bullet loading and to insert the first ball into the case.
If memory serves I used a mild load of Unique.
CF, who's tired of snow.

[MakeMineA10mm]

I've done it in 44, 357, and soon, 41. Here are some precautions and then what I do:

The first thing is to weigh your balls. (This is starting to sound like a Saturday Night Live skit... :D ) In 44-cal, my balls weigh, from my WW alloy, 116grs. They come from a .429" Lyman single-cavity RB mould, which is painfully slow, considering each load gets TWO of them...

Now, even though two would weigh 232grs, which is exactly the weight of a certain Lyman SWC mould, we must consider seating depth. Remember that these two spheres are going to result in a LOT deeper seating than if it was a single 232gr SWC. For that reason, I down-load after looking at load data for full Wad-Cutters. I keep in mind the MAX charge for a full WC and the STARTING charge for the 232gr SWC, and choose something right in-between. (This is safe because the RBs also have VERY little bearing surface as opposed to either a WC or a SWC.

My method is after using usual sizing, priming, bell-mouthing, and powder charging is to use my bell-mouth die to shove the bottom RB down below the mouth of the case, perhaps 1/4" below the case mouth. I then use some lube from one of the 50/50 lube sticks I have that melted in the heat. Don't use too much, just a thin layer. Certainly DO NOT fill up that 1/4", or you'll have a hydraulic effect in-between the bullets. Then, just seat the top ball with normal seating die proceedures. The pressure of the top ball being seated will push the bottom ball down a little, and maintaing close contact between the two balls, so there's no danger of an air-space, either. It's kind-of important to adjust the seating die so that the widest part of the top ball is even with the case mouth for good crimping. I always crimp in a separate operation.

These shoot very well. They're hard to chronograph, so I estimate mine are flying about 800fps.

[excess650]

Something else that can be done is to squash those RBs so as to not take up so much case capacity, and increase their bearing surface.

I've loaded (2) 358101 75gr WCs in 38s and 357s, and they worked OK.

"Once bet I guy that was using a slicked up 1911 that I could draw and put 10 holes in a silhouette target faster than he could. He thought we would both have to reload and of course he would be able to do it faster than I could with a revolver. He got a little pissed when I put 10 holes in the target in 5 shots and showed him how I did it."

LOL! One evening when shooting man-on-man speed drills we used balloons for targets. I had my Colt Officer's Model 45 and was shooting against a friend with a tricked out Colt 45 (IPSC Limited gun). From surrender positon we had to draw and engage (3) targets each. I was showing clear to the range office before Tim had broken his 2nd balloon with his 2nd shot. The RO was laughing his a$$ off when he saw I was using Remington's then new 45acp shotshells. LOL

[MakeMineA10mm]

Something else that can be done is to squash those RBs so as to not take up so much case capacity, and increase their bearing surface.

I've loaded (2) 358101 75gr WCs in 38s and 357s, and they worked OK.

"Once bet I guy that was using a slicked up 1911 that I could draw and put 10 holes in a silhouette target faster than he could. He thought we would both have to reload and of course he would be able to do it faster than I could with a revolver. He got a little pissed when I put 10 holes in the target in 5 shots and showed him how I did it."

LOL! One evening when shooting man-on-man speed drills we used balloons for targets. I had my Colt Officer's Model 45 and was shooting against a friend with a tricked out Colt 45 (IPSC Limited gun). From surrender positon we had to draw and engage (3) targets each. I was showing clear to the range office before Tim had broken his 2nd balloon with his 2nd shot. The RO was laughing his a$$ off when he saw I was using Remington's then new 45acp shotshells. LOL

Those thin WCs can be loaded three to a 357 case, and I used to use those for pin shooting. Unfortunately, because we were so close to the pins, there wasn't much in the way of dispersion, so my multi-ball load idea for quickly sweeping the table didn't work -- didn't make up for sloppy shooting... [smilie=l:

[Reg]

A lot of good feedback coming in here.
Went to a gun show in Loveland yesterday with another old friend from long ago. We talked of this multipul ball load and he said he has noticed it is making a big comeback mainly due to the Judge and some of the larger hide outs that use the .45 Long Colt and .410 loads.
When I started this I didn't have this thought in mind but can see where it sure would apply.
I did pick up a .429 single ball mold so am going to play with this a bit.
Again, I do thank all for your information.

:drinks:

[BarryinIN]

I tried some last fall in my .44 Spl Blackhawk, using .433" RBs. I'll have to dig my records up to get the details of the load, but what I remember was the way each pair struck the target. The two would hit close together, but if you drew a line between them, it would almost always be a near vertical line.
I expected random separation, with some split horizontal, some diagonally, etc, but the holes were almost always stacked one above the other.

My guess for an explanation involves the gun starting to move under recoil before the balls leave the muzzle. If the gun is moving, even a little, the muzzle will be slightly higher when the second ball leaves it. although they are right behind each other. I have no way of knowing which ball is hitting higher, the high one or the low one, so my theory could be blown away if I were to find the first one hit higher.

[MtGun44]

A friend loaded 3 balls in IIRC .357 mag, but it may have been in .44 Mag. He called
it his 'hock shop load'. :-)

Bill

[Rocky Raab]

All the admittedly funny stories aside, the key elements of this load (I have done 45 Colt) are:

Use Start loads or a bit less to compensate for the much-reduced case volume.

Use roundballs near bore diameter.

Seat the first ball carefully. If you pre-lube them (I use LLA) you can just set your seater stem to its final position with the ball's equator at the case mouth. Then, just hold the second ball atop the first as you guide it into the seater die. If you don't pre-lube, seat the first ball just below the case mouth and spread a bit of lube in the space between the ball's upper hemisphere and the case walls.

Seat the second ball to its equator and crimp lightly.

Check to insure that the first (deepest) ball doesn't bulge the case walls.

[Dave C.]

The two ball load was a factory offering I believe it was Remington.

Dave C.