What Hollowpoint and alloy for 44 mag

[Irascible]

I have an older 429421 HP mould which I would like to send out to hollowpoint moulds for modification. There are so many hollow point configurations, it's hard to choose. I also wonder what alloy to cast for proper expansion? I will me using this out of my 6 1/2" 29 and 6" Dan Wesson at about 1200 fps. It will be used for Whitetail Deer in the 125lb to 200lb range. ANY SUGGESTIONS?

[44man]

I have an older 429421 HP mould which I would like to send out to hollowpoint moulds for modification. There are so many hollow point configurations, it's hard to choose. I also wonder what alloy to cast for proper expansion? I will me using this out of my 6 1/2" 29 and 6" Dan Wesson at about 1200 fps. It will be used for Whitetail Deer in the 125lb to 200lb range. ANY SUGGESTIONS?
You do NOT need to hollow point your boolit. Just take it up between 1300 and 1400 fps and it will thump deer like crazy.
At 1200 it might need some expansion and you can just soften the boolit. If you go with a hollow point then I would suggest 75% WW metal and 25% pure and water drop boolits.
If you expand too much and fast you will lose penetration.
I shoot all of my deer with 320 to 330 gr boolits, cast hard, 1316 fps. LBT style boolits. Your boolit will work fine, just up the velocity a little.
I shot three with the .44 last season out of six total. This was the last, shot at 98 yards with a hard 330 gr boolit.

[Irascible]

OK, and you are correct, but the mold is already a hollow point and I was looking to improve it.

[sixshot]

There are many ways to get the results you want for whitetail deer. First off, they aren't hard to kill with a sixgun & because of the size you mention they don't offer a lot of resistance under most conditions.
Back in the 60's when I first started using HP designs I came up with an alloy that worked great & I got both expansion & penetration. I was hunting Texas whitetails at the time & they were about the size you describe.
Here's the alloy I used, it always worked for me & I had no leading in my guns. Remember in the early days of revolvers the bullets were almost pure lead & worked at a velocity of around 700-850 fps with deadly results. It wasn't until Elmer Keith & many others, including 44man that higher velocities & harder bullets came into use. The 44 special, hot loaded up to 1200 fps made it necessary to increase the hardness of the alloy to prevent leading, even then the alloy of 16-1 wasn't very hard compared to now but it was hard enough to work without leading.

My alloy & velocity starting at 800 fps, this was for HP style moulds.

800 fps I used 50% WW's & 50% pure lead
900 fps I used 60% WW's & 40% pure lead
1000 fps I used 70% WW's & 30% pure lead
1100 fps I used 80% WW's & 20% pure lead
1200 fps I used 90% WW's & 10% pure lead

over 1200 fps, (which is not needed for deer) I used straight WW alloy. Again, remember until the introduction of the 44 magnum velocities over 1200 fps weren't possible & harder alloys weren't needed or desired. If you have good bullet fit (cylinder throats & barrel you will have almost zero leading & excellent results.

Dick

[44man]

There are many ways to get the results you want for whitetail deer. First off, they aren't hard to kill with a sixgun & because of the size you mention they don't offer a lot of resistance under most conditions.
Back in the 60's when I first started using HP designs I came up with an alloy that worked great & I got both expansion & penetration. I was hunting Texas whitetails at the time & they were about the size you describe.
Here's the alloy I used, it always worked for me & I had no leading in my guns. Remember in the early days of revolvers the bullets were almost pure lead & worked at a velocity of around 700-850 fps with deadly results. It wasn't until Elmer Keith & many others, including 44man that higher velocities & harder bullets came into use. The 44 special, hot loaded up to 1200 fps made it necessary to increase the hardness of the alloy to prevent leading, even then the alloy of 16-1 wasn't very hard compared to now but it was hard enough to work without leading.

My alloy & velocity starting at 800 fps, this was for HP style moulds.

800 fps I used 50% WW's & 50% pure lead
900 fps I used 60% WW's & 40% pure lead
1000 fps I used 70% WW's & 30% pure lead
1100 fps I used 80% WW's & 20% pure lead
1200 fps I used 90% WW's & 10% pure lead

over 1200 fps, (which is not needed for deer) I used straight WW alloy. Again, remember until the introduction of the 44 magnum velocities over 1200 fps weren't possible & harder alloys weren't needed or desired. If you have good bullet fit (cylinder throats & barrel you will have almost zero leading & excellent results.

Dick
That is very good and shows vast experience.
The only reason I shoot faster is that is where my accuracy is and expansion is not needed. Slower needs expansion and this is a great chart.
I found that too fast also needs expansion because too hard just zips through deer with little internal damage. We need a chart going the other way and it could match your chart in reverse.
Thank you, that is more detailed then I have come up with. I have always said it is not the velocity or energy of the boolit but what work it does inside the deer.
It appears very hard works best from 1300 to 1400 fps and go either way from this and expansion is needed. My WFN boolits cast too hard at 1631 fps suck on deer but make them expand and they kill FAST but go too soft and meat is blown up.
Finally, after all these years, someone that agrees with my thoughts and to come up with a chart to boot. My hat is off to you Dick.

[white eagle]

two of the better heads in the handgun arena
advice well taken fellas

[Gunsmoke4570]

Great info!

[Irascible]

That is very interesting. When working up a hunting load for my 1895 in 35 Winchester, I ended up with a 250gr gas check bullet and ended up with 50/50 - WW/lead at 1800fps, (no HP though) and no lead with LBT blue lube and with good accuracy. No reports on how it worked however. I took it Caribou hunting and never saw one close enough (200 yds or less).
My main interest was in seeing the hollow point expand without fracturing. I'll give your alloys a try, but I have nothing to test them in except wet phone books until next season. AND, i'm still looking for a recommended HP shape.

[white eagle]

when I had a hp for my 44 mag
I went with the recommendation I received
from Erik
I discussed with him my intentions and we went with a
cup point hollow point

[bhn22]

Try reading Glens article of 429421 HP. This may give you a starting point for your deliberations.

http://www.lasc.us/fryxellinsetbarhpmolds.htm

[Lloyd Smale]

for the most part i use 5050 ww/pure air cooled for 44 hps. it has worked well for me on deer loaded to 1100 fps. Alot depends on the size and even more so the dept of the hp cavity. To deep isnt a good idea. I like a cavity that goes about 2/3s to 3/4s of the way into the nose calling the start of the crimp grove the end of the nose. You can go harder. ITs not really a bad thing. I shot a buffalo with a lyman devestator cast out of an alloy that was just a bit softer then #2. The bullet lost its nose and in a big percentage of all cast handgun bullets that will happen. THat is the reason i dont like a deep cavity. Whats left of the bullet after then nose blows off will continue to penetrate and you want some bullet left. Cast them a bit harder like that makes them perform very much like a nosler partition and ive heard very few people claim partitions didnt work. I think you can make a bigger mistake casting them to soft. Ive saw where big bullets like 512s that were hollow pointed and cast soft open up so much that penetration really suffered. Alot of it depends on what animal your going after, what caliber and what speed. There really isnt a majic alloy that works for everything. An alloy that works at 900 fps wont at 1300 and an alloy that works with 357s on deer wont nessiarily work well in a 475 and because of the differnce in the differnt bullets cavity sizes and depts what works in one bullet will fail miseralby in another. About the only way you will find out is to do some penetration testing in wet print of some other media and even that isnt going to give you results that are written in stone.

[Bass Ackward]

The only reliable bullet that expands without breaking up is one without antimony. So lowering antimony content helps. But that takes away from velocity. Heat treatment of that mix again forces compromise. It helps with the velocity end of it, but it still takes away from "reliable" expansion at handgun velocities unless you thin the nose WAY down and deep or you choose to strike heavier bone. Trade offs, always trade offs.

Key word there was reliable. If it ain't reliable, then why do it?

The trouble is that you have a PB design and are forced to meet all the criteria or getting it to shoot well and "the odds" are you are not going to be happy with the results on some days. This was the driving force for hard and wide.

With hard and wide you have to get a bearing area long enough to steer that big nose into the wind until it develops a stable air flow pattern. That means that you must then run up the velocity to get any range out of it. All to penetrate 3/4" of hair hide and bone on the way in, 14" of air in between, and 3/4" of bone hide and hair on the way out.

All of these headaches go away with the use of a simple copper cup or accepting a little leading with your PB. There are no 10 or 12 shot groups for deer.

Today, my expanding mixes for handguns are limited to lead tin mixes for this reason. I can run em where I want, shoot plenty well enough, don't have to fuss with a hollow point, and I do not have to worry about penetrating 1 1/2" of material and popping the lungs.

Soft has the advantages of everything "for deer". If it expands you get wider for free. If it don't, then you still have wide.

[Irascible]

Thanks everyone.
Good info from all of you. I'm going with a couple of different shaped pins; a cup point, the one recommended in the LASC article, and a copy of the original. And, an assortment of alloys. It looks like a lot of testing ahead (read FUN), but I have 9 months to do it.
Pat

[44man]

for the most part i use 5050 ww/pure air cooled for 44 hps. it has worked well for me on deer loaded to 1100 fps. Alot depends on the size and even more so the dept of the hp cavity. To deep isnt a good idea. I like a cavity that goes about 2/3s to 3/4s of the way into the nose calling the start of the crimp grove the end of the nose. You can go harder. ITs not really a bad thing. I shot a buffalo with a lyman devestator cast out of an alloy that was just a bit softer then #2. The bullet lost its nose and in a big percentage of all cast handgun bullets that will happen. THat is the reason i dont like a deep cavity. Whats left of the bullet after then nose blows off will continue to penetrate and you want some bullet left. Cast them a bit harder like that makes them perform very much like a nosler partition and ive heard very few people claim partitions didnt work. I think you can make a bigger mistake casting them to soft. Ive saw where big bullets like 512s that were hollow pointed and cast soft open up so much that penetration really suffered. Alot of it depends on what animal your going after, what caliber and what speed. There really isnt a majic alloy that works for everything. An alloy that works at 900 fps wont at 1300 and an alloy that works with 357s on deer wont nessiarily work well in a 475 and because of the differnce in the differnt bullets cavity sizes and depts what works in one bullet will fail miseralby in another. About the only way you will find out is to do some penetration testing in wet print of some other media and even that isnt going to give you results that are written in stone.
Pay attention fellas because this is correct. The size of the animal will demand different alloys and amounts of expansion or lack thereof.
Most of our discussion is for deer so never think the same will work on a buf.
The wrong bullet used on a deer can mean a lost deer because of over expansion and lost penetration. I shot three with the 240 gr XTP out of my .44 and if I had not seen them fall, I could have lost them because there was NO BLOOD TRAIL, even back tracking. All bullets were recovered from double lung hits behind the shoulders.
I swore off this bullet and would never shoot a large animal with it.
Don't think a fast explosive boolit will work.

[44man]

It can get confusing and the 240 XTP might work perfect from a .44 special or a lower velocity from the mag. I read about those that like a 180 gr XTP and wonder if they are shooting it too fast so to get a "splash" on the side of deer.
Some animals have bones I guess :kidding:and what happens with a big bone hit or a quartering shot?
The .44 is a gun I depend on with hard cast and it has never failed me. Yes, I love larger calibers but the .44 does not take a back seat at all. Use the proper boolit for the game hunted.
Never, ever, will I sell my .44!

[Irascible]

Ain't it the truth. I am a big fan of the 240gr Sierra JHC and have never seen one fail on Deer. Lung or body or shoulder shot. I saw my son hit a Black Bear at 50yds through the lungs with that same bullet out of a 10" Contender and it worked perfectly. He wanted to try some 240gr XTPs and ended up shooting an 80 pound Black Buck and the bullet disintegrated inside. It did kill him though. The same results with a small feral hog and a Whitetail. I think he has also sworn of 44 cal XTPs in his Contender with it's higher velocity. Even though it seems to kill well, there is very little blood trail and of course only one hole for cold air to come in. I agree that the XTPs should work well down around 1000fps AKA 44 Spcl.
In another of my handguns, a TC in 357 Herrett, I do use the 158gr XTP FP at 2000fps which has worked well at 30 feet and 110yds and everything in between. The HP version of course does not.
And, speaking of 44 cal XTPs coming apart, you should see one in a Sabot out of a muzzle loader. A varmint bullet for sure!

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree with 44man. I only consider a hp alloy and bullet that still give an exit wound. Any animal including deer will rarely drop at the shot with a handgun and most will at least travel a small distance before dieing and i ALLWAYS want an exit wound so that I have a good blood trail. Enterance wounds even with a rifle seldom give you much of a blood trail. Jacketed hps may kill deer and some swear by them for there fast kills but shoot enough live animals with them and eventually your going to have one run off without a good blood trail and loose it. If your insistant on using jacketed bullet a good soft point design is a better way to go then a hp. Handguns just arent rifles and relying on ft lbs of energy or shocking power of an expanded bullet in them is eventually going to come back and haunt you.
It can get confusing and the 240 XTP might work perfect from a .44 special or a lower velocity from the mag. I read about those that like a 180 gr XTP and wonder if they are shooting it too fast so to get a "splash" on the side of deer.
Some animals have bones I guess :kidding:and what happens with a big bone hit or a quartering shot?
The .44 is a gun I depend on with hard cast and it has never failed me. Yes, I love larger calibers but the .44 does not take a back seat at all. Use the proper boolit for the game hunted.
Never, ever, will I sell my .44!

[Whitworth]

Handguns just arent rifles and relying on ft lbs of energy or shocking power of an expanded bullet in them is eventually going to come back and haunt you.


Well said, Lloyd! Relying on the mythical muzzle energy can result in failure.

[Larry Gibson]

I've not responded to the original posters question in this thread because I use GC'd HP'd bullets driven at 1400+ fps. However this thread has taken a different turn....

I don't think those of us who use HPs are "relying on ft lbs of energy or shocking power of an expanded bullet". We are relying on the greater physical wound damage caused by the expanding bullet to cause death or incapcitation quicker. A quicker death or incapacitation means the animal is not going to go near as far. I also think we understand that deer are not "knocked" off their feet by handguns or rifles. I have killed many, many deer with handguns using hard cast bullets, cast HPs and jacketed HP/SPs with both handgun and rifle. With magnum handguns I have used the .357, the .41 and the .44. I have yet to recover any HP, cast or jacketed, from a quatering or broadside shot including through one or both shoulders. The exit wound with the HP is always larger coming out through the ribs but the holes in the hide are deceptive and usually small for both and let little blood out.

I have very seldom depended on "blood trailing" becuase I seldom hunt in snow and a deer can go a long ways from where shot to when blood starts leaking out. A lot depends on what is hit in the deer and the location of the hit. In the PNW where it is mostly wet with bright colored leaves, etc, to obscure any sign of blood (if there is any) I prefer to have the deer go down as quickly as possible. I "track" by following the "tracks" if tracking is necessary. Most often tracking is not necessary because the HPs kill quicker and I can follow the tracks of the deer.

BTW: When using a handgun I also don't just shoot once and stand there waiting for the deer to die. I will shoot again if possible and have found about perhaps 1/3 the time I can get 2 well aimed shots into the deer. A lot of this depends on the size of the deer (they do vary across the country) the terrain and conditions when hunting and the style of hunting one does. While I won't not go hunting if all I have is hard cast SWCs or WFN loads but I prefer to use HPs, jacketed or cast, as they have proven to be quicker deer killers.

This is just my experience and what I've found works best for me. Others have there ways and I've no real arguement with them as hunting styles and methods vary across the country.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

I've not responded to the original posters question in this thread because I use GC'd HP'd bullets driven at 1400+ fps. However this thread has taken a different turn....

I don't think those of us who use HPs are "relying on ft lbs of energy or shocking power of an expanded bullet". We are relying on the greater physical wound damage caused by the expanding bullet to cause death or incapcitation quicker. A quicker death or incapacitation means the animal is not going to go near as far. I also think we understand that deer are not "knocked" off their feet by handguns or rifles. I have killed many, many deer with handguns using hard cast bullets, cast HPs and jacketed HP/SPs with both handgun and rifle. With magnum handguns I have used the .357, the .41 and the .44. I have yet to recover any HP, cast or jacketed, from a quatering or broadside shot including through one or both shoulders. The exit wound with the HP is always larger coming out through the ribs but the holes in the hide are deceptive and usually small for both and let little blood out.

I have very seldom depended on "blood trailing" becuase I seldom hunt in snow and a deer can go a long ways from where shot to when blood starts leaking out. A lot depends on what is hit in the deer and the location of the hit. In the PNW where it is mostly wet with bright colored leaves, etc, to obscure any sign of blood (if there is any) I prefer to have the deer go down as quickly as possible. I "track" by following the "tracks" if tracking is necessary. Most often tracking is not necessary because the HPs kill quicker and I can follow the tracks of the deer.

BTW: When using a handgun I also don't just shoot once and stand there waiting for the deer to die. I will shoot again if possible and have found about perhaps 1/3 the time I can get 2 well aimed shots into the deer. A lot of this depends on the size of the deer (they do vary across the country) the terrain and conditions when hunting and the style of hunting one does. While I won't not go hunting if all I have is hard cast SWCs or WFN loads but I prefer to use HPs, jacketed or cast, as they have proven to be quicker deer killers.

This is just my experience and what I've found works best for me. Others have there ways and I've no real arguement with them as hunting styles and methods vary across the country.

Larry Gibson
As long as you have the penetration and a blood trail, I will not argue at all.
But here, you will NOT track the deer you shot by tracks. If they run a trail full of tracks, you can not tell the deer you shot from the fifty that walked the trail before. Only snow will allow it. Snow is the hunters biggest friend.
No matter what you use, a blood trail is the only way to have a deer at the end of the trail.
I found 12 dead deer on one property alone last season because the rifle hunters think a deer should drop in it's tracks and if it doesn't, they think they missed.
To have a deer drop right now with a revolver is RARE and since it is harder to hit exactly off hand, you need blood on the ground.
Larger calibers do work better and most deer are seen when they fall.

[Larry Gibson]

44man

Not sure where "here" is but tracking skills obviously vary across the country also. Not criticising you at all with that BTW. I have successfully tracked many a wounded deer across the tracks of other deer. The tracks are different because the deer were moving differently. Not hard to do and tell apart but it just takes practice and time/patience. I agree that snow is a great friend but it doesn't show much during deer season where I mostly hunt. I have hunted various parts of the country for deer from Tennesse/Kentucky to N Carolina to Texas to Montana and in Oregon, Washington and Nevada. Different terrein, different weather, different conditions, different deer, different sizes of deer all mean that the hunting skills must be adaptable. One thing for sure though is the deer are not any "harder" to kill in any of those places if a bullet from a .357 to whatever size from a handgun is put in the right spot. With such they all die. The question is simply how soon.

There is a thread on the hunting forum that shows a small buck shot with a hard cast SWC out of a .44. It traveled about 30 yards (it was an excellent, perfectly placed shot BTW) and died. It is in the snow. Look at how little blood there is around the entrance wound and how little blood (I couldn't see any) in the snow around the deer. Not arguing here just pointing out some facts. As I also have said repeatidly, I won't hesitate to hunt with a hard cast SWC or WFN because they work. I have just found that a proper HP works better. Thus I don't disagree with those that use either, I just try to steer both into the proper use/selection of both/either.

We do agree on larger calibers working better and prefer the .41 and .44s magnums. If I want more than those I use a rifle, just my choice is all.

Larry Gibson

[white eagle]

how would a soft alloy like pure with a whisper of tin (1-2%)
and a gas checked boolit work ?
would you not get the same effect ?????

[dgslyr]

I have the same mould 429421 HP.It has worked well with straight wheel weights and 9 lbs. of wheel weights-1 lb. of 50/50 solder.I have used 20-21 grs of 2400 and 24 grs. of IMR 4227.1300-1400 fps.Out of a S&W 629 6 in.,4 different 7 1/2 in. SBH,and 2 Redhawks also 7 1/2 in.Deer,pigs,large and small,a couple of 3X,
jackrabbit's,coon's,coyote's,fox ,skunks,,rattler's,water moccasins,and feral dogs have all fallen to that bullet.The only one I ever recovered was from a 3x pig.Shot him in the neck.It was in his spine fairly well deformed but no evidence of expansion.The 429421 HP works great the way it is in my 30 + years with it.

[Thumbcocker]

My experience with the 429421 hp out of 50/50 wwpb pretty much mirror dgslyr's except I have never recovered a boolit. I have a question for .44 man: have much does impact velocity effect boolit performance in your experience; or is impact velocity not a significant variable at handgun ranges?

[Larry Gibson]

how would a soft alloy like pure with a whisper of tin (1-2%)
and a gas checked boolit work ?
would you not get the same effect ?????

Alloys of 1-40 or -130 do very well at 850 - 1000+ fps. 1-20 does very well at 1200 fps and 1-16 does extremely well with a GC'd bullets at 1400+ fps. Keith liked either 1-16 or 1-10 alloy for his magnum 429421s.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

My experience with the 429421 hp out of 50/50 wwpb pretty much mirror dgslyr's except I have never recovered a boolit. I have a question for .44 man: have much does impact velocity effect boolit performance in your experience; or is impact velocity not a significant variable at handgun ranges?
Only for the alloy. I find velocity at impact needs to match the alloy or the other way around. There is nothing wrong with 800 fps or 1800 fps if the boolit choice is a match.
That would be for the fastest kills with the largest blood trails yet about anything else you use will kill deer.
I have just been working with the hard boolits in many calibers and have found a range where they work best. But alter the boolit construction and you can do anything at any velocity.
Forget energy figures and just make your boolit do what it needs to do.
It is so hard to explain and there are places where a soft boolit or a hollow point is what you want. Yet there are places where a hard boolit also works best as is.
There really are spots where the boolit alloy should be changed for the velocity, caliber and size of the animal.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive shot alot of deer with cast handgun bullets. Probably as many as anyone here. Ive shot them with hps and flat nosed hard cast bullets. Enough of each to get opinions of my own. What ive found is there is very little differnce in how fast a deer dies using either. There may be a very small advantage in hps for quick kills but its so hard to really judge as every deer shot reacts differntly and the difference in just an inch or two of where the bullet hits means more then which bullet your using. I wont stop using hps on occasion as i think there fun to play with and are just another aspect of handgun shooting and hunting but really dont feel there vastly superior to hard cast bullets. Personaly i think that duel alloy soft nosed bullets are more reliable then hps if you really feel you need expansion. There alot less likely to fracture. As to tracking deer. Our hunting area is in an area that is a deer yard especially toward the end of season and id challange anyone to track a deer be it in the snow or on bare ground that isnt bleading. Some of the main trails the deer use are wore down into the ground 6 inches from deer travel and when theres no snow theres just to much area that there is going to be no tracks due to hard spots. Ill stick to my opinion that a good handgun load for me is going to put two holes in a deer to leak blood and that isnt even a guarantee of a good blood trail. We do crop damage shooting and kill lots of deer each year and ive spent many hours tracking deer and am no beginner to it. We rarely loose a deer but it does happen. Its very rare the tracks help other then just showing in which direction the deer headed

[44man]

Lloyd, I can't say it better. Blood is needed above all else. Anyone that can track one deer here is nothing but magic. Tracks from 50 deer in a trail ----WOW, find the tracks from the shot deer without blood. :veryconfu

[outdoorfan]

What ive found is there is very little differnce in how fast a deer dies using either. There may be a very small advantage in hps for quick kills but its so hard to really judge as every deer shot reacts differntly and the difference in just an inch or two of where the bullet hits means more then which bullet your using.

Lloyd, can you further quantify this by adding what velocity range you kill most of those deer (both in HP's and solids) at? For example, have you noticed that HP's and solids kill about the same for you at all velocity levels from 900-1200 fps, etc?

Edit: My question doesn't make sense. Of course boolits kill better at 1200 than they do at 900. What I'm asking if if you've compared HP & solid shot deer at 900 through 1200 fps, keeping the comparison with each configuration at the same velocity level? And, have you tested each on deer as slow as 900-1000 fps?

[sixshot]

Lloyd, very good write up! When I started out with cast bullets over 50 years ago I used regular solid Keith style slugs & they worked great, later on like most here I tried HP cast slugs, after much experimenting I came up with the results I listed above. They worked great & I never recovered a single HP slug. They didn't seem to kill any better than regular solids & were a pain in the Pelosi to make.
I went back to solids for the next 40 years & have taken many animals in many states & also in Africa, they have never, ever failed, I have but not the bullets. About 10 years ago I started using softnose cast after reading an article by Ross Seyfried & they are the very best bullets on the planet for those times when you might need a little more expansion & yet still get complete penetration, you truly can make them fool proof at any velocity just by changing the amount of pure lead you use while still getting 100% penetration from the solid rear portion.
A good example of "need" might be a 180 gr 357 slug, if it has a 30-40 gr pure lead nose it will add considerable "splash" when it hits & then the solid rear portion will continue on through the animal leaving the desired exit wound that all of us like & require.
I've used softnose cast on everything from deer to elk & moose & they are absolutely the finest bullets out there for big game & easier to make than HP's.
If you want to shoot game at 800-900 fps use more pure lead on the nose, want to wind them up to 1200-1400 fps use less pure lead & more solid base, simple & foolproof.

Dick

[44man]

Lloyd, very good write up! When I started out with cast bullets over 50 years ago I used regular solid Keith style slugs & they worked great, later on like most here I tried HP cast slugs, after much experimenting I came up with the results I listed above. They worked great & I never recovered a single HP slug. They didn't seem to kill any better than regular solids & were a pain in the Pelosi to make.
I went back to solids for the next 40 years & have taken many animals in many states & also in Africa, they have never, ever failed, I have but not the bullets. About 10 years ago I started using softnose cast after reading an article by Ross Seyfried & they are the very best bullets on the planet for those times when you might need a little more expansion & yet still get complete penetration, you truly can make them fool proof at any velocity just by changing the amount of pure lead you use while still getting 100% penetration from the solid rear portion.
A good example of "need" might be a 180 gr 357 slug, if it has a 30-40 gr pure lead nose it will add considerable "splash" when it hits & then the solid rear portion will continue on through the animal leaving the desired exit wound that all of us like & require.
I've used softnose cast on everything from deer to elk & moose & they are absolutely the finest bullets out there for big game & easier to make than HP's.
If you want to shoot game at 800-900 fps use more pure lead on the nose, want to wind them up to 1200-1400 fps use less pure lead & more solid base, simple & foolproof.

Dick
I agree with this 100%. Best there is. Just adjust for the velocity.
My work has been with hard cast and where they work best but even a deer shot too far after the boolit has slowed should have expansion.
Even my hard boolits at the right velocity can benefit from a small soft nose. The only thing is that a hard boolit that does not deform will cut a straight path. There is give and take with anything you use.
I have said over and over that you don't want to use the same alloy for all velocities because just because it has a flat meplat does not make it right for everything.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive shot deer with hard cast and hps at ranges from 10 yards to a bit over a 100. Velocitys range from 900 to 1400. My comparison is using simular weight bullets at the same velocity. Now where the sticky comes in is matching the alloy to the game with hps. To me if cast properl they perform on deer sized game as well as solids but in my experience deer sized game is the largest id fool with hps on. Ive shot buffalo with them and they did kill and kill quickly but i wouldnt want to have to rely on that happening every time. What a good hard cast swc or lfn gives you is a decent wound channel that is going to leave two holes in an animal to leak and more importantly is about guranteed is arrow straight penetration. Any bullet that deforms will vere off course inside an animal. With a hard cast bullet i can aim at an animal knowing where its vitals are and know that my bullet will reach those vitals even if it hits bone. Bottom line is no animal can live with a hole in his heart or through both lungs and a deer can run much farther with a large hole in one lung then it can with a 44 cal hole through both. Like i said theres nothing wrong with using cast hps or even jacketed hps on deer but a good hard cast bullet is never a mistake on any animal.
Lloyd, can you further quantify this by adding what velocity range you kill most of those deer (both in HP's and solids) at? For example, have you noticed that HP's and solids kill about the same for you at all velocity levels from 900-1200 fps, etc?

Edit: My question doesn't make sense. Of course boolits kill better at 1200 than they do at 900. What I'm asking if if you've compared HP & solid shot deer at 900 through 1200 fps, keeping the comparison with each configuration at the same velocity level? And, have you tested each on deer as slow as 900-1000 fps?

[Bass Ackward]

The whole problem with mixes and hollow points is defining hollow point.

Go to far and you amplify issues to the point that bullet failure is possible under the right circumstances. But that can and often does with hard cast. It's just that everyone has the belief that it doesn't. :grin:

Stay with a cup point type of hollow point and you minimize factors so much that I don't think people could tell what they were using if I loaded the gun for them. You get the desired pop on entrance and penetration is not compromised.

[sixshot]

If penetration is not compromised at least to some degree the HP isn't working properly, not saying it won't exit at least on deer size game but when the intended target gets into the elk class or even good size black bears you had better be looking at a broadside shot or else pass on the shot.
Thats the beauty of cast on big animals, for me the last thing on my mind is a bad angle, I can hit those vitals from a quartering shot, trying that on a big animal is a recipe for disaster.

Dick

[Whitworth]

If penetration is not compromised at least to some degree the HP isn't working properly, not saying it won't exit at least on deer size game but when the intended target gets into the elk class or even good size black bears you had better be looking at a broadside shot or else pass on the shot.
Thats the beauty of cast on big animals, for me the last thing on my mind is a bad angle, I can hit those vitals from a quartering shot, trying that on a big animal is a recipe for disaster.

Dick

Exactly, Dick! Very well said!

[44man]

I totally agree. Keep penetration. That is why I went to cast for all my hunting because I could not trust a few of the J word things.
Some open too fast and others that don't have small meplats.
The larger calibers are catching on more and more because of boolit weight that doesn't want to stop in any animal. They work just fine in deer size animals too.
There must be a million ways to make any boolit work and I just relay what has worked for me.
Shooting a deer with the .44, .475 or a .500 does great internal damage but even when shot through the shoulders, there is not much meat loss. I have strayed too far and blown meat into mush and gone the wrong way and poked little holes.
I want two holes, great lung damage and small meat loss plus a good blood trail. Every single animal must be a learning experience.
I will never, ever believe that one boolit will do it all at any velocity.
Bass understands and makes good sense even though I have running fun time with him. After all, he did make fun of my hunting hat! :kidding:
Yeah Bass, me and you could get together and laugh ourselves silly.

[Lloyd Smale]

good point bass. Most people these days have the bigger is better metality and with hps thats not even close to being true. In my experience the size of the hp cavity is very critical. To me a good hp has a wider shallower profile rather then a small deep one. In most instances a hp caving that goes any more the 2/3s of the way into a nose is a bullet that is only good for varmit shooting. With about any alloy a bullet with a deep cavity will loose its nose and if the cavity is to deep theres not enough bullet left to insure penetration. Accuracy is another thing. I hear people all the time claiming a hp bullet is more accurate. That isnt what ive found. Sure you can take a bullet and hp it that wasnt an accurate bullet in your gun and find it has become more accurate. That is more a matter of what that particular gun likes with that particular load. Ive got a pile of molds that cast both hp and solid versions of the same bullet and id say its a toss up accross the board with various guns and which they like. I can say though that at least in my testing and in my guns when the hp cavity gets on the larger side that just about all of my loads suffer in accuracy.
The whole problem with mixes and hollow points is defining hollow point.

Go to far and you amplify issues to the point that bullet failure is possible under the right circumstances. But that can and often does with hard cast. It's just that everyone has the belief that it doesn't. :grin:

Stay with a cup point type of hollow point and you minimize factors so much that I don't think people could tell what they were using if I loaded the gun for them. You get the desired pop on entrance and penetration is not compromised.

[Bass Ackward]

I can say though that at least in my testing and in my guns when the hp cavity gets on the larger side that just about all of my loads suffer in accuracy.

Well sure. The farther you get from an error, the wider the actual distance becomes. Plus, it can be difficult to mold a point like that and difficult to catch that you did. The closer you approach the shifting C of B, the worse the wobble should get.

Two things allot of people miss.

1. Hard bullets do fail or break up, you just don't now it.

2. 70% of a bigger caliber meplat is easily approached with a cup point that still has the strength to maintain nose integrity on a small animal like a deer.

The whole key is that a hollow point choice /use is just another common sense factor just as proper bullet weight or anything else. As long as you know how and when to use it, your OK. So is not using it if you choose.

[44man]

Well sure. The farther you get from an error, the wider the actual distance becomes. Plus, it can be difficult to mold a point like that and difficult to catch that you did. The closer you approach the shifting C of B, the worse the wobble should get.

Two things allot of people miss.

1. Hard bullets do fail or break up, you just don't now it.

2. 70% of a bigger caliber meplat is easily approached with a cup point that still has the strength to maintain nose integrity on a small animal like a deer.

The whole key is that a hollow point choice /use is just another common sense factor just as proper bullet weight or anything else. As long as you know how and when to use it, your OK. So is not using it if you choose.
Yup! I do not want a brittle boolit, so too hard can fail. Only hard enough for accuracy first of all. It is a strange world and a boolit not quite hard enough can slough off metal from the nose but a little harder and it will hold shape. Yet a softer boolit might not lose any lead at all with bone contact and even kill better.
The .44 is a medium weight boolit shooter and too fast expansion can fail to penetrate. This will all depend on the velocity you start with. Slower can increase penetration but so can a harder boolit shot faster. I still feel if you exceed the velocity too much, the hard boolit will do less damage. Each range you shoot deer also changes boolit action.
My deer shot with the .44 at 100 yards and a harder boolit will take longer to put blood on the ground and go farther then one shot at 30 yards. Even the .475 will show the same results. The 45-70 is worse at close range because of the higher velocity but does better at longer ranges.
There is just no boolit design or hardness that will do it all. To look for a fast explosive boolit for deer is wrong, no matter how they blow up jugs of water. You need to shoot them slower.
To look for maximum penetration with very hard boolits and max velocity is also wrong for deer size animals.
The main problem is leading and poor accuracy with different alloys so once you find what shoots, only change the nose of the boolit so the drive bands maintain your accuracy.
If you want to shoot dead soft, use a muzzle loader, there is not much that does as good. All they need are larger balls for larger game. I have shot hundreds of deer with a .45 flintlock from 10 to over 100 yards and all have died quick but the .54 is a monster with almost all falling at the shot. Even a cap and ball is deadly WITHIN IT'S ACCURACY RANGE that is much shorter then a rifle.
Yep, I love pure lead but it is folly to try and shoot the stuff from modern guns with modern powders.

[Thumbcocker]

Just sitting here in the peanut gallery with my beanie on takining it all in. WOW. (My beanie does have a good tapered crimp groove, however) :-D

[Larry Gibson]

A good HP of cast or jacketed construction gives up nothing in the way of penetration for use on deer. With a through and through from any reasonable angle (some of us do not take Texas heart shots) just how much "penetration" is needed? An expanding bullet does more damage. Is that additional damage needed to kill a deer? Not really, if simply killing the deer is sufficient then a RN bullet from a .44 Magnum will do that. We don't use the RN bullet (at least most of us don't), cast or jacketed, because it is not as effective as a SWC or WFN. Those 2 styles of bullets, given equal velocity as the RN bullet, are more effective because the "crush" damage in the wound channel is greater. An expanding bullet, given the same through and through penetration, gives more "crush" damage than the RN, the SWC or the WFN bullet. More "crush" damage in the wound channel means the animal will die faster. Some of us appreciate the difference even if it isn't always observable to many and some don't think there is any difference. It's a matter of choice as to what anyone uses (within legality) for a bullet, particularly a cast bullet. As I've already said I don't have a problem with using a SWC or a WFN cast bullet for hunting. Both kill deer well given proper bullet placement. My observations are simply that a proper cast or jacketed HP that expands and gives through and through penetration kills quicker. I simply choose to use those if possible. If not then I've no compunctions against using the SWC or WFN.

Larry Gibson

[Lloyd Smale]

Larry i dont intentionaly take a texas heart shot either but have on a number of time ran into needing to do it on a wounded deer running for a second shot and its allways gave me comfort that no matter what the angle i can drive a bullet into the vitals if needed. You are right though on a standing non wounded deer theres no way im going to and with a standing broadside deer about any cast bullet will drive into the vitals and most cast and jacketed bullets will exit as long as there not shot at speeds there not designed for. When you step up in animal size or toughness hps can and will fail. Ive seen it on bigger black bear and hogs personaly and if you havent seen it id have to say you just havent shot enough game with it. Sure you can get away with it most times. Heck i even shot a 1100 lb buffalo wiht a lyman devestator and it workd fine but i wouldnt bet the farm that it would every time.

[44man]

See the thoughtfulness, experience and knowledge on this site?
The most important thing is to eliminate "Most times." and turn it into "Every time."
And cast boolits will do it, there is nothing that you have more control over.
Your job if you choose to accept it is to make the boolit work without ruining accuracy.
Destroy this tape when done. :mrgreen: