Article: Barrel Leading and Firelapping

[markinalpine]

I found this interesting:
http://www.gunblast.com/FerminGarza-Firelapping.htm
A Contemporary Look At Barrel Leading and Related Sixgun Issues
by Fermin Garza January 4th, 2011

I found it a little long winded at first, but bear with the author. He starts to get to the point about 1/3 through.

Mark :coffeecom

[2 dogs]

LOL, sorry about being so long winded.....

But here I am if anyone has any questions about firelapping.

[timkelley]

2 dogs, did you do that article? Ya done good. I have been thinking about getting a kit for fire lapping What do you think of the Midway Kit? It is apparently the compound only but I bet I can find some steel around the shop. Hadn't thought about a bolt tho.

[markinalpine]

LOL, sorry about being so long winded.....

But here I am if anyone has any questions about firelapping.

UH OH! [smilie=1:
What I really meant to say is "...to the point, but it's a very informative article with several excellent pictures to illustrate the process."
I am sooooo embarassed! :groner:

Mark :veryconfu

[2 dogs]

Mark, Im a big boy. No need to be embarrassed. The simple fact is I AM a Long Winded SOB! Dont suffer lead in your barrel. Let me know if I can help!

[2 dogs]

Tim, I have only used the lapping compound from Beartooth. I would also trust LBT. Im not sure what exactly Midway sells, could you post a link?

Also, if you are going to do a stainless gun I would get both grits available from BT.

[kelbro]

2 dogs, did you do that article? Ya done good. I have been thinking about getting a kit for fire lapping What do you think of the Midway Kit? It is apparently the compound only but I bet I can find some steel around the shop. Hadn't thought about a bolt tho.

I just used the Wheeler kit that Midway sells. It does have the two steel plates and three grit levels.

Took me about 24 bullets to take the barrel/frame constriction out of my stainless SBH.

[sixshot]

I have the lapping kit from both Verl & Beartooth, the compound is somewhat different but both works.
I've never heard of only needing 24 rounds to lap a Ruger stainless barrel, you were lucky! A blued gun doesn't take many but stainless is a whole nother ballgame.
Don't reuse the cases, save them for the next time you firelap, also be sure to really, really clean up your gun after the final lapping, its very abrasive.

Dick

[MGySgt]

I have Veral's kit and it works real well. I have done a number of 44's and 45's. But I didn't load mine backwords.

Stainless - MANY more than blued, but each gun is different.

Drew

[2 dogs]

Agreed. If you firelapped a stainless gun in so few rounds you probably only had a minor amount of restriction.

[targetshootr]

Nice work, Ferm. What struck me is that custom guns leave custom shops with a barrel constriction. Blows my mind a little bit.

[2 dogs]

Again, the smiths dont make the barrels. They use the best available.

What gets me, is that they dont CHECK them for restriction! Note that the guns used in my article are some of the best available! Its my belief that most of the people who own these kinds of guns really dont shoot them very much.

[timkelley]

2 dogs, I have discovered there are two different kits from Midway, one of the kits has only the compound. This is that kit, http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=486249

[2 dogs]

Thanks Tim. Good information. I appreciate it.

[kelbro]

I bought the kit that included the steel plates:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=646612

The constriction was .001 at the barrel/frame junction and it took .0008 of that out. Took out all of the roll stamp constriction farther up the barrel.

Being a stainless Ruger, I was expecting it to take more shots based on all that I had read. Maybe the first 6 being 220 grit had something to do with it. Next 12 were the 320 grit followed by 6 at 600. It is not 100% out but I think the remaining 2-3% will shoot out naturally. I was a little scared to do it and really afraid of taking it out too much.

It does seem to shoot a little better and shines like a mirror. Eliminated the small amount of leading that I got from my 429421 bullets. Can't see any tooling marks (no borescope). I'll shoot another hundred or so through it and see if it needs another round.

[2 dogs]

Are you getting any leading?

Do you have bullet lube on the muzzle?

[bdutro]

Mr. Garza,

Thank you for the article, I enjoyed it very much. The only leading problem I had was with lee molds and tumble lubed bullets. I have since fixed that problem with a good lubed and sized bullet even though I sized with the slug and caliper method that you spoke poorly of.

Do you have any additional tips or information for users of tensioned barrel guns? Dan Wessons and some S&Ws?

[sixshot]

The lube star Fermin mentions is a good indicator that your lube is working correctly.

Dick

[kelbro]

I now have a good lube star. No leading. ACWW boolits. Much improved.

[Bass Ackward]

People always talk about fire lapping stainless steel as if it were diamond. In truth, it cuts and forms way easier than 4140.

The only difference has come because manufacturers were scared to death of building guns in stainless during the early years so they used good heat treatment to harden the finished product.

Well, time (history of low incidences) and energy costs have altered these fears and now production costs have taken over. Very seldom is heat treatment over done any more unless there is a huge safety issue involved. And then it can be spotty too considering the steel might take to HT differently from different batches.

When it comes to lapping, the more force you create (harder you push on sand paper) the faster it cuts. Larger bullets, longer bullets, higher pressures do the job faster than slower, lighter, bore diameter slugs do.

So gone are the days of shooting 100 lappers and then checking where you are at. You must monitor progress more closely. Stainless is more likely than chrome molly to be all over the place, even from the same manufacturer. It just depends on what you have.

[2 dogs]

Kelbro, sounds like you are within a dozen or maybe 18 rounds of the finest lap rounds of being THERE! Shoot is some, and see what you see. Sounds like you are VERY close or even there. The biggest problem with firelapping is knowing when to stop!!!

[2 dogs]

Bdutro, with the Dan Wesson, you have the opportunity to pull the barrel and check for restriction off the gun as well as check it while it is torqued down. I have one, I believe it could be more accurate than it is, and plan to firelap it some at a later date.

I dont have a Smith and Wesson that displays restriction to me, so I have not firelapped one of those either.

[DAFzipper]

What size pin gauges would I need for a 44 and 45? The whole set is too much money for the few time I'd use it. I found them for 2 to 3 bucks for one. Don't mind buying 8 or 10 to get the job done.

[white eagle]

barrels on my guns lead like crazy
even with gas checks
bout ready to throw in the towel
checked them the best I can but I am not rich
can't afford to get all the cool tools even the necessary ones
pin gauges should probably be a couple thou on each side of the boolit dia maybe even go to 1/2 sizes

[Bass Ackward]

barrels on my guns lead like crazy
even with gas checks
bout ready to throw in the towel
checked them the best I can but I am not rich
can't afford to get all the cool tools even the necessary ones
pin gauges should probably be a couple thou on each side of the boolit dia maybe even go to 1/2 sizes



One or a few guns are gun specific, all guns is an operator issue.

So you probably need to get with " ONE " person that has shooting objectives similar to what you are trying to do. Pick one firearm until you get it ironed out. Identify by firearm type or accuracy objective, full power, target, what ever.

Identify the guy on that basis and approach him off board until you isolate your problem. This will eliminate background noise which is probably confusing you.

[btroj]

Great advice Bass. Trying to figure out a bunch of guns at once for a newbie is not easy. Heck, it can be tough to learn what a new gun wants even for an experienced caster.

White Eagle, what are you casting for? Some cartridge/ gun combos are tougher to figure out than others. I find lower velocity rifle, especially 30-30 and 45-70, easy to load for. Revolvers with lower end loads are not too tough either. Neither of these is real critical of alloy or lube. They will demand a decent bullet fit and good loading technique. This is not to say they won't require some work but they have fewer quirks from a gun point of view. I think of semi auto pistols as a much tougher test.

Keep with it. But take Bass' advice, find one gun, and go figure it out.

[white eagle]

the two guns that are troubling me are the 44 mag and the 45 colt
I cast for the 358 win,30-30.35 Whelen 220 swift ai and soon to be 280 ai none cause me the grief these pistolas do
I guess I have been trying to rush things along so I will slow down a bit and work on one first then the other
'thanks fellas

[2 dogs]

DAFzipper, to measure your barrel start at .441 and go up a couple of sizes. To measure your cylinder throats, I would start at 451 and go up a few sizes.

[2 dogs]

WhiteEagle, the most common malady for the 44 and 45 bores is restriction in the throat area where the barrel is compressed a bit by the threads in the frame. Get your throats measured properly and be sure you are shooting the correct size bullet. If you are doing those 2 things and have restriction in the throat area, you will see leading at that point in as few as 6-12 shots. You will never get good cast bullet accuracy with the bullet being squeezed down in the throat as it rattles and skids down the rest of the barrel rather than being squeezed down as it is pushed out the muzzle.

[MGySgt]

DAFzipper, to measure your barrel start at .441 and go up a couple of sizes. To measure your cylinder throats, I would start at 451 and go up a few sizes.

2 Dogs - when measuring with pin guages how do you compensate for the grove size?

[2 dogs]

You cant measure the grooves with pin guages. Pin guages will only give you the ID to .001 or so. You have to slug your barrel and measure the slug. For this application, the groove size isnt the issue. The lands are. The grooves are affected as wel when firelapping. You need about .005 on each side of the bullet to make best contact IMO. For example, a .452 groove barrel will ideally have .442 lands.

[canyon-ghost]

Wow! Nice article, Mr. Garza. I think you've just said more in a short amount of time than most shooters know. This was some valuable information for me, I've only picked up a revolver in the last year so, I'm a bit awed. That's simply great.

Ron

[EDK]

barrels on my guns lead like crazy
even with gas checks ........

For the financially challenged....all of us.

Read the article and make a note of the grit sizes needed. We use CLOVER brand grit for valve lapping at work...I can usually get the left over can for asking. Lots of small steel plates of various sizes in the scrap bins...ask for a couple, run them through the sandblaster and parts washer to clean. DIY lapping kit.

While measuring is desirable, the results in leading/ease of cleaning will tell you when you have succeeded. I check chamber throats with an unlubed sized boolit and a micrometer.

REMEMBER: LESS IS MORE! GO SLOW. You can always do a bit more lapping or use a finer grade. You ought to be able to see a little difference after firing five rounds, clean and fire five more...then clean and check.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[2 dogs]

I firelapped my first sixgun without any measuring. It certainly can be done!

The method I use now just cuts to the chase!

[targetshootr]

I noticed a tight spot once when I used a range rod to check cylinder alignment.

[robroy]

've got a Brownell's silicon carbide lapping compound asst that goes from 120 to 800grit and some 1/4" plate glass or polypropylene sheet that's 1" thick. Do you think these materials will do the trick or do I need to get different grit. I have used the silicon carbide to hand lap rifle barrel blanks before chambering with good results.

[2 dogs]

Robroy, I honestly cant see why it wouldnt. If you have a rough barrel, give it a shot and let us know how it works out for you. Be sure and shoot some pics and a group or two before you start!

[white eagle]

2 dogs
how would I go about measuring the
area where the barrel screws onto the frame ???
shove a slug thru muzzle first ??

[2 dogs]

WE, no you do it the opposite way! Go to the sporting goods fishing area and find some of those round oval soft lead sinkers. They are numbered as to thier size. Pick the one that is just bigger than your bore. Buy several.

When you get back home, you will need a piece of 1x1, a hammer, a brass rod, and a vise. Take your ERH off the sixgun and secure it by the barrel in the PADDED vise so that you can access the cylinder window. Start the lead slug in your throat, set the wood on it, and tap the slug in the throat area by striking the wood with your hammer. Be careful not to whack your sixgun.

Take your brass rod and slide it down in from your muzzle and you should be able to push out your slug. If not, a swat from the hammer is indicated.

Be sure you use your chore girl wrapped cleaning rod to completely clean your barrel before you do any of this. Be sure your barrel is lightly lubed. Measure your slug with a micrometer. You can also measure your groove size here as well.

To do your muzzle with a lead sinker, you gotta find a screw or a nail that goes in the hole and secure it in the sinker. Use an empty brass case to tap it into the muzzle. You dont have to go all the way. Use the protruding screw or nail to pull it back out.

The front one should NOT be bigger than the back one! Again, you can measure your groove size here, but the lands are what matters. Be sure and use a micrometer to measure.

Good Luck!

[robroy]

I've seen reference to a thread or link that shows how to measure the 5 groove rifling in an S&W barrel. can anyone direct me to that or tell me how to do it?

[markinalpine]

Here's one method that should work without needing any really exotic equipment: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=864577&postcount=2

Mark [smilie=s:

[robroy]

Thanks Mark. And Larry Gibson too. Dead simple when you think about it and I don't know why I didn't think of it myself.

[DAFzipper]

I'm up to 120 round through my stainless SBH Hunter. By measuring the chambers and using the tight holes I've got them all to accept a .452 pin gauge. The bore on the other hand will still not let a .443 pin gauge pass all the way through. It stops about 3/8 of an inch from going all the way through. Just looking for some encouragement to keep going!

[Bass Ackward]

I'm up to 120 round through my stainless SBH Hunter. By measuring the chambers and using the tight holes I've got them all to accept a .452 pin gauge. The bore on the other hand will still not let a .443 pin gauge pass all the way through. It stops about 3/8 of an inch from going all the way through. Just looking for some encouragement to keep going!


Keep going? Personally, I would stop. After you fire lap, the gun is going to open a few tenths more anyway.

So you always want to stop short. Lead will finish the rest.

[2 dogs]

DAFzipper, you need to keep firelapping.

If you clean your barrel, shoot your regular loads in it, still see leading, you still have restriction that needs to be cut out.

You still need to firelap your gun some more. That Ruger stainless is hard stuff! Youre not gonna hurt it.....

I dont want to get into an argument with bass ackwards but unimpregnated lead bullets will take most of the rest of your life to "do the rest".... I want my gun shooting its best as soon as possible.

[kelbro]

Wanted to add a follow-up on this thread. I firelapped my stainless 7.5" SBH 44mag a while back. Re-tested a load today that would never break 4" @ 50yds. Now, consistently 2-2.5" and no leading. I'm happy with the results.

[2 dogs]

Kelbro, thanks for the follow up.

Be a base pin puller fellas. Theres no reason to put with a barrel that leads.....

[kelbro]

I was a little apprehensive about the whole thing but now I would do it again without a second thought. The kit from Midway worked well and with very few shots.

[danielk]

What is the difference, or pros and cons, between hand lapping and fire lapping? After reading 2dogs article I now know what the process is for both. I'm more asking are these two different methods just different means to the same end or does one make a better finished product in the end? Also so far the posts have been about revolvers, could I firelap my 1911 barrel in the same manner or does it require a different approach?

Thanks for the article 2dogs!

[2 dogs]

Dan, first you are welcome. If it helped my fellow sixgunners, I accomplished my goal.

I have never done handlapping, to me, the firelapping process is easy and simple. No need to make things anymore complicated.

Finally, why do you want to lap your 1911? Is it leading? Do you have restriction?

[danielk]

My current 1911 is just fine, not that i've checked for restrictions but it isn't leading. I was merely curious if this is typically a revolver issue since thats all that was being discussed.

[2 dogs]

No need to firelap your 1911 then. Yes, it is typically a revolver issue, but it is not limited to revolvers.

[markinalpine]

My current 1911 is just fine, not that i've checked for restrictions but it isn't leading. I was merely curious if this is typically a revolver issue since thats all that was being discussed.


No need to firelap your 1911 then. Yes, it is typically a revolver issue, but it is not limited to revolvers.

Rifles can have problems with barrel constrictions too.

Hey 2 Dogs. Your article is getting some pretty good mileage! :Fire:

Mark :coffeecom

[2 dogs]

It is! Your posting the link around the various websites hasnt hurt anything either!! Along with your calling me on my longwindedness!!! LOL!

Its all good tho. If I can help a fellow sixgunner get his sixgun to quit leading and shoot better thats what Im after. A little good natured ribbing never hurt anybody either!

He's right about firelapping rifles guys. I've never done one, but I know many guys who have successfully done it with excellent results.

[crash87]

2 dogs, I am also going to give you the thumbs up on your article, well done. I do find there are those that criticize the proccess, my question to them is, Have you tried it or are just repeating what someone else, (usually the person whom built your firearm) has told you? After doing about a 1/2 dozen each, revolver's and rifles, I find for cast bullet shooting it has no rival, it is a must, to truly realize the firearms true potential. In fact I just spent the afternoon lapping a Ruger. A custom Ruger at that, no barrel constriction as it had been taylor throated but the cylinder throats were under size. At 40 rounds I was almost there, at 60 perfection, yes I use pin gauges. Using push thru slugs the bore was rough, after the 60 rounds things smoothed up very nicley and the gauges told me what I needed to know. For what its worth I used the LBT compound.
O.K. after the long winded intro, [smilie=s: I do have a question for you, in fact, I had quick read your article before I started today, was going to try it, but went at it as I always did. Why do you seat your bullets backwards? I normally just push them in base 1st until they stop in the taper and shoot. A different means to the same end I suppose, but I am curious.
Again, great article, Crash87

[2 dogs]

Hi Crash, Im glad you are here to back me up on this. Ross Seyfried wrote an article on the Lipseys 44 specials and wrote how he firelapped one of them. Some of the forums immediately attacked firelapping as a "gimmick". To my way of thinking, it was unfortunate as many people who were reading that were getting bad information. I decided it was time for a more step by step process explaining the proceedures.

I have been firelapping revolvers for about 10 years. The bottom line for me is the search for accuracy. You can have the best cast bullet in the world but if you have a rough or restricted barrel you are screwed.

I still have a picture of the first custom revolver I firelapped. This is the one that made me a believer....
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t256/Fermin_pics/OMSBH.jpg

To answer your question, by seating a bullet backwards Im just trying to reduce the amount of powder air space and reduce shaving by taking advantage of the bullets nose taper. That way I dont have to screw around with any filler. Besides, they shoot great that way!

[crash87]

Thanks 2dogs, It may be a gimmick for some, BUT, after doing a few myself, It is in my mind a neccessity. Getting back to the seating of the bullets backward. I kind of thought that was the reason. Well sort of. I don't really get any shaving of lead as I take the crimp or whats left of it, it still has a slight roll on the case mouth, out by chamfering with a VLD chamfer tool, if it still needs a littl help it goes to the case trimmer for a little shave. Let me add here i am able to step put my back door and shoot, so I only sacrifice the needed number of cases, in this last case 5, one for each chamber.
I have never messed with fillers, with pistol cartridges, as I am usually able to get the bullet in fairly far, as I said above, to where the case taper prevents it from going further. With that said however, I have always used a bit of filler, usually dacron, in rifle cartridges. Which have included the 45/70, 9.3X74, 30/30,405WCF, 35 Whelen, 358 STA, even my 416 Rigby, which firelapping has made into a very fine, accurate, low cost, cast bullet "plinker" :smile:
I am always willing to take advice from experienced shooters/handloaders/etc. I really don't care for those who talk as if they know, yet have no experience in the subject at hand. I have next to me a new unfired Ruger 44 special flattop. Un-fired yes, but, it has been measured, only to find severe, no let me make that "SEVERE" throat constriction, and a little roughness in the roll marked lettering area. The first shots this handgun will see, are going to be fire lappig rounds. After all, why shoot something, one already knows isn't going to work to, or at least up to, it's full potential? I will also be seating the bullets backwards, as per your article, a guy just never knows, until he tries. Thanks again, Crash.

[2 dogs]

Yessir, them sixguns can be a pain in the A$$ alright. But I love em!

Remember the days where guys would get unexplained blowups of 38 specials when using wadcutters and 2.8 grains of bullseye?? It was theorized by some that the powder laying flat in the case was the causation. That has always kinda stuck in my mind.....so I tend to try to avoid that possibility.

My own Ruger flattop has near perfect dimensions, however the bore is a liitle rough. Im trying my pal Chucks advise with this one, gonna see if I can smooth it out with jacketed bullets....

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t256/Fermin_pics/004-1.jpg

This is 25 yards, a 180 grain JHP at, well, lets just say its HOT! I want to see if it improves over time....
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t256/Fermin_pics/021-2.jpg

[2 dogs]

Guys, while I'm quite happy to anwer any questions you have via PM I would prefer you ask me on the open forum. That way, someone who has a simular question might be able to read the anwer the first time. Again, while Im not trying to lay any claim to being a firelapping authority or anything, I am veryhappy to help my fellow sixgunners. So, if you feel better asking me via PM go ahead. Just keep in mind, somebody here might have a better idea or way than me!

[crash87]

Just finished firelapping my flattop 44 spec. As I said it had severe throat constriction, and bore was a little rough. After 24 rounds, I cleaned the gun and checked, still there, after 24 more, 48 total, things were looking good, in fact almost there. 4 more cylinders full, throat constriction was gone and barrel was smooth. I also started out with bullets seated base 1st, then remembered to try it point 1st. I did notice that pressure did increase, and I was able to back off my load 2/10ths of a grain. I also noticed that the velocity was more consistant. All pluses in my book. :grin:
Next up a contender barrel, nothing serious just a small bump and a little smoothing out should do it. Like I said, anything that is going to shoot cast can benifit from firelapping, how much depends on the gun. Crash87

[2 dogs]

Unless you find restriction in that contender barrel it should only need some smoothing up. I would keep it to 15-18 firelap rounds and do some testing....What caliber is that contender??

Thank you very much for the follow up. I certainly appreciate the help dispelling the "myths"

fermin

[crash87]

I most definatley agree, on just the "smoothing up". Its a wildcat based on the 445 mag case. necked down to 375. So far I'm not to pleased with it for shooting cast. It is a heck of a cartridge for jacketed bullets though,but, seems there is a shortage of the kind I shoot. Sierra
200 and hornady 220's. I have enough hornadys and 100 sierras left. Should get me through.
Myths; I do not like seating cast bullets well into the powder space, I have had nothing but eccessive leading when I do. Gas checks don't make a difference if the lube groove is sitting in that space, my experience and most of all my opinion, And, I don't really care what anybody says to the contrary. Bad JuJu all the way around. I have ordered a mold from Mountain molds that keeps everything covered in the short neck of this cartridge. I would have prefered an bullet in the 225 range but settled on a 200 gr. The whitetails I plan to hunt will not know the difference. I am really looking foward to get this mold to see what it can do with a cast bullet dimensioned to perfectly fit the chamber. Crash87

[DAFzipper]

Well, after 304 rounds I finally removed the restriction in my stainless SBH in 45 colt. I dug three rounds out of the berm from the second to last batch and they where stacked on top of each other. New I must be getting close. Now to try some real loads. Makes me want to lap a couple other revolver I have. They are NOE's 240 grain Wadcutters.

[2 dogs]

Told ya that dang ruger stainless was hard!

[uscra112]

I often buy stuff like that from Manhattan Supply: www.mscdirect.com

Once the home page loads, search for PIN GAGE

Having been hip deep in automotive and aerospace metrology for most of my career, I'll recommend pin gages over any other method every single time for bores up to about one inch or so, unless I'm allowed a tooling budget equal to the price of a new Ferrari. Their one failing is that, if the hole is not round, it will appear smaller than the value you'd get if you measured it with a scanning CMM.

Here's another source - I had to think for a minute to remember this one. If you need pins in increments of .0001", Meyer makes them. Use their Distributor Locator to find aq place to buy near you

http://www.meyergage.com/products/individual_class_x_pins.htm

[GSaltzman]

Bill, make sure you get the minus set. Ordered mine from Grizzly Industries. At the time it was the best price. Good tools to have.