Lubing options

[woodman51jfk]

This should start a pretty good info swap session, ,and hopefully help me determine the best route to follow......lubing boolits...which method is best? Currently I use Lee Alox & tumble all my cast boolits, ( including tumble & standard cast ), leaving a light coating overall, but I notice that store bought & Star type luber/sizers only leave lube in the grooves filling them completely. So folks, which is better........& why do ya think so.........(.mebbe next I'll wonder which luber is best/easiest/most econimical )



Just as an afterthought, and don't know if it matters: I cast & load for .45 Colt Ruger SA BH, Puma 92, and Taurus 44 TEN ( .45LC & .410 ); .44 Mag Ruger SBH; .45 G.A.P. Springfield XD; .45 ACP, Ruger SA BH; 9X18 Makarov Russian mfg. Shooting is for fun plinking, CAS, and coyotes, mocs, or other unruly critters

[Jon K]

Woodman,

Star is the fastest, no doubt. I 've been trying to bid for a reasonable price, but there are others willing to bid new price for used. Getting back to your question, I know several people who have a Star, they swear by it, but admit, it is the hardest to adjust for lube, and dies are costly.

I own RCBS, Lyman and Saeco, they all work well and have little quirks. Everyone has favorites, and opinions, but to make a general statement, Lyman and RCBS are the most economical for dies with Lyman being the easiest for beginner to adjust.

Lee tumble lube works for some applications, but not all. I prefer not to use it only because it's messy.

That's my opinion, you'll get lots more,
Jon
:coffee: :castmine:

[ron brooks]

Well, opinions on luber/sizers are like all opinions, everyone has one. I would suggest either an RCBS or a Lyman They are good and the sizing dies and punches are easy to get and inexpensive while you experiment with different sizes to find what works best in your firearms you are casting for. If you want later you can pick up a Star and use it for more speed and you will what size of their more expensive sizing dies to get without the experimentation.

Good luck, and remember the best choice for you is the one you are most comfortable with.

Ron

[9.3X62AL]

Having never used the method--tumble lubing--I can't speak from experience on its plus/minus sides. I have in the past used LOTS of Hornady and Speer swaged bullets, and those have a lube "coating" similar to tumble lubing. These worked well for me in 38 Special and 32 S&W Long, and some of my best groups have been shot with those bullets--both Speer and Hornady 38 HBWC's and Hornady 90 grain SWC's come to mind in this regard. 45 ACP wasn't bad, a little leading did occur. 9mm was dismal--any velocity over 900 FPS plated the bore fiercely, and it took about 900 FPS to get reliable functioning. Not good.

Tumble lubing may be limiting, in other words. I have used the Lyman 450 since 1980, and I'm happy with its work. If the boolit doesn't fit/is undersized, it won't matter what lubing method you use--it will lead the bore. If that offending boolit has a gas check, it will still lead the bore--but the gas check has the courtesy to scrape out most of it on the way out. Sort of like burglars wearing gloves or spraying WD-40 around to eliminate fingerprints, ya could say. Groove lubing allows more flexibility and often higher velocities than tumble lubing, but that's not a hard and fast rule.

There is also flood lubing, where boolits are stood up in a pan and lube melted around them to fill the grooves/cannelures/whatever. Also messy, and a "cookie cutter" is best to free them from the hardened lube cake that forms in the pan. In the interests of domestic tranquility, it is best to use a heat source other than the kitchen oven for such hobby ventures. Alox lubes are toxic, you don't want that stuff around food prep areas.

[Junior1942]

My Lyman 450 sits on my bench gathering dust since I changed to Lee Liquid Alox and Lee push-through sizers. I shoot cast in 44 mag pistol to 1200 fps, 357 mag rifle to 1817 fps, and 30-30 rifle to 1973 fps. All bullets are regular grease grooves Tumble Lubed in LLA.

One point: you say you're "leaving a light coating overall" but I use two coats for a heavy coating overall.

[Cloudpeak]

In the early 70's, I owned a lube/sizer. At that time, I cast and loaded for my Ruger 44 mag. I loaned the lube/sizer out, got busy with life and fogot about it. The guy moved, then died so I didn't get it back. I don't remember which make or model it was and, to tell the truth, can't remember how it worked. Do all of the lubesizers operate the same way? If so, would someone mind going through the operation of such a machine?

In the last couple of years, I got back into casting and pistol shooting. I've cast a buch of 40 S&W and have recently cast a bunch of 45s for my 1911. I decided to start out with low cost options before possibly buying another lube/sizer. I'm using Lee 6 cavity molds and their push through sizers and liquid Alox. I've been very pleased with how this combination has worked out. I thin the Aloz with "Odorless" mineral sprits, tumble in a cool whip plastic container and let dry on wax paper. I then put the bullets through the push through sizer and re-lube. I've been very pleased with how this has worked out and, until I learn more, am satisfied staying with this program. It really doesn't seem that messy and you can really go to town resizing with the Lee push through sizing dies. So, it seems this method is cheaper and faster than buying a stand alone lube/sizer. But, I'm staying tuned to this discussion in case my assesment is wrong.

I've not had any trouble with leading but am shooting reduced loads in both pistols.

Cloudpeak

[ron brooks]

If it works for you and you are happy with it, then that's what's important. Stick with it.

Ron

[Char-Gar]

I have never used Lee LA lube, but some folks swear by it and others swear at it. I suspect the difference is the design of the bullet.

I don't have a Star, but those that do think they are the nee plus ultra.

I do have four Lyman machines and they have done all I have asked of them for 46 years.

Which is best?..heck if I know asI have not tried them all.

I need to say that I no longer size rifle bullets in the Lyman machines, I use nose first sizing on my big RCBS A2. I just use the machines for lubing the bullets... Hey..works for me!!

[mag_01]

:coffee: ---I have used both with a double coating of LLA if I used the tumble lube method---both methods work well all with what you are comfortable with---Mag

[Leftoverdj]

Al, not all lube is equal and swaged bullets ain't cast bullets. LLA is good up past 2200 fps with the right bullets. The best lube on earth can't do much with dead soft swaged bullets and that fast 9mm twist.

What I lube with and how I apply it depends on what I am doing. Almost anything will work with 800 fps target loads. I'm partial to Rooster Jacket and Johnson's Paste Wax for ease of application. Both are liquids that are applied by tumbling, and both dry to a waxy surface like that on .22s. Both are good to something over 1000 fps in pistols and just under 1400 fps in carbines.

I use an ancient Herter's lubrisizer for a good bit of stuff, but that thing is slow compared to shucking the bullets through a Lee Pushthough and tumble lubing.

[kodiak1]

For my bullets cast with the Lee Micro Groove mould I definetly use the Liquid Alox for anything with a deep grease groove in it it goes through one of the Lyman 4500's I have anchored to the bench getting a coating of 50/50 Beeswax and Alox, this is for anything under 1400 ft. / sec. The faster bullets I use my own mix and have used Lars w/ Carnuba Wax.
The B.Powder get a home made coating and am trying out Lars stuff als seems to do the trick nicely for the grease grooves but still like my home made for grease cookies for the paper patch bullets.
Ken.

[44man]

I swear at LLA! Every time I tried it my barrels leaded, even up to 3 coats. I get zero leading with LBT, Lar's lubes and Felix lube. 50-50 doesn't lead much (I get some.) but groups are larger. I think lube must be pumped to the bore for the entire length of the barrel from adequate grease grooves, not a film on the boolit. In my opinion, LLA is gone in a few inches.
Putting it on a boolit and then filling the GG's with a good lube would be OK but is another step that is not needed with a good lube. Someone sent me some softer swaged boolits that were coated with LLA. I never seen so much leading! 5 shots were enough, I melted down the rest.
Sorry guys, but nobody will ever change my mind and make me use it again.
I hate Alox in any shape or form. Over 52 years of fooling with it has not shown me anything good about it! Why the stuff has hung on so long is beyond me. It burns, smokes, stinks and doesn't stop leading.
Dip your boolits in melted beeswax and it will work better then LLA.

[Ricochet]

I have standing here beside me as I type a Persian Mauser that hasn't had its bore cleaned since its last firing, because it doesn't need it. It was fired with 8mm Maximum bullets cast out of about 1/3 wheelweights and the rest soft scrap lead, water quenched, sized .323" and gas checked, and tumble lubed with LLA. They were fired over a mildly compressed load of IMR 7383 at about 1800 FPS. The bore is black with a greasy film of LLA and powder soot, no lead whatsoever, and the muzzle has a thick lube star. The LLA certainly didn't burn up in this bore, or fail in the first few inches of the 29 1/8" barrel.

[Ricochet]

Oh, yeah: The Alox smells great, too. A nice waxy, soapy fragrance on firing.

[versifier]

The answer is: do what we all do, try one at a time and see what works for you and your boolits/barrels.

Like Junior, I switched to LLA when it first came out, but my technique with it has been modified in the last year after input from others on this forum. I am having great results thinning LLA with mineral spirits to 50/50 and dipping longer rifle boolits. This leaves clean noses, much less mess, and a good thick coating where it needs to be. They still need to dry overnight, no big deal for me. Shorter handgun boolits I still tumble with a mix of LLA and 25% mineral spirits, if I can't hold them pinched between thumb and forefinger to dip. For instance, I can usually manage to hold swc's, but wc's and rn's are too hard for me to grip.

I am not sure what the limiting factor(s) for LLA is(are). Many of those here who have tried it and swear at it are more than experienced enough to vary their alloys and sizes to minimize leading, so it continues to puzzle me why I can, for instance, take ACWW.309/.310 soupcans up to 2700fps out of several different .30-30's without leading, (though accuracy does begin to drop off over 2500, and they won't work in my .308 above 22-2300). Cast of pure lino, I can push them even faster without leading, but again their peak accuracy, like those cast of ACWW is still right around 2500fps. Heavier rifle boolits (150-185gr) that I have experimented with show their best accuracy between 1800-2000fps and none show any leading problems in that range, but pushed beyond do lead quickly. I cast no rifle boolits larger than 8mm, so I have no idea how LLA behaves with them. With .30, 9mm, .35, .40, & .45 handgun boolits I have never had any problems with leading. My fastest current handgun loads are for my .357mag Contender with 158gr swc's @ 1600fps. Good accuracy out to 100yards, and I have shot 500+ through it in one day and saw no deterioration of accuracy and no leading whatsoever. I neither load nor shoot .44mag or .45LC at this time.

I accept that others, many with more experience than I, have had major problems with LLA, but I am clueless as to why what works so well for me won't for them. Just one of life's little mysteries I guess....

[9.3X62AL]

I hear ya, DJ and Versifier.

I got into casting and started with the Lyman 450 system--it works for me--so didn't see the need for the LLA route. As can be seen here, a LOT of folks use it with success, and some swear at it. I'm just trying to address the question posed--the various methods available--and shared info on the two systems I've tried, mostly. The Speer/Hornady experience may not relate directly to castings, but caused enough caution to prompt me away from LLA. I do have some on the bench--it makes a fine coating for paper-patched boolits.

[Maven]

LLA v. Ly. #450 & RCBS Lub-A-Matic: When I first got my Lee .44 TL mold, I was thrilled with how easy it was to lube its bullets: Swish 'em around in a margarine tub with LLA (full strength), fish 'em out, stand 'em on their bases and let 'em dry (< 1hr.). Four batches later, I'm not so sure for several reasons: Yes, it is convenient, but I dislike the sticky mess on my hands after standing them on their bases. (I also tried dumping them on waxed paper to dry, but they stuck to it, weren't lubed evenly and made a mess of my seating die.) Reason 2 was the leading, albeit slight, that I got @ ~1,040fps (8gr. Unique + Fed. 150 primers). After this "convenience," I thought there had to be a better way. To wit, why not use the #450 with an oversized die, to lube them? My last 2 batches were lubed "normally" and fired using 11.8gr. B. Dot + Fed. 150 primers (1,210fps, +-37fps). Guess what? Using the same alloy, I got "0" leading and excellent accuracy. More importantly, it took no more time to do this than with LLA and I didn't have a mess on my hands (literally) or in my dies. In spite of this, let me also say that LLA is quite useful for adding lube to CB's used in rifles, especially to the noses of bore riders and Ly. #311644 in particular, or to those 1 or 2 that have somehow escaped our attention.

[threett1]

Love the smell of liquid alox in the morning.:-D

[Powderface]

I got my Star at a Flea Market for $5.00, I have never seen or heard of anything to beat it.

Pure push thru - nose first sizing. And for what I pay for sizing dies, well compared to what I spend on this hobby of ours, i'ts not bad and they don't wear out.

If you have trouble adjusting the star, see the magna web site for instructions.

Mike

[DPD]

I have three Star lubricator/sizers (bought them in the 70's when they were much
cheaper) mainly because they are a pain to adjust to lube the grooves you want to get in different calibers. For 20 years I used Tamarack lube in all my machines with good success. The 50/50 alox and beeswax is a little messy compared to the
Lyman Orange Magic I'm using now. The lead mix I use is 30 to 40% linotype and
the balance is scrap lead of various origins. I have not had any problems with leading and for high velocity pistol loads I will use CF Ventures wax gas checks in
addition to normal lube.
I always try to size my boolits as little as possible, just enough to seal off the
sizer die for lube application. I find accuracy improves in my revolvers and semi-autos. I could be wrong, but I think I recall an article years ago in a cast boolits
magazine that did a controlled experiment to compare sized vs. unsized boolits
and unsized projectiles won in the accuracy department. With revolvers, I know
part of the success of unsized cast boolits is due to the variation in throat diameters of the cylinder. I seem to recall that hard sizing actually compromises
the outer surface of the cast lead projectile, softening the outer few thousandths
of an inch. Anyway, shooting oversized boolits has never caused leading in my
guns. I'm a big believer in the lube bands vs. surface lubed, but it seems others
on the forum have good success with tumble lubed boolits.
I would be interested to know if anyone has done accuracy comparisons using
various lubes. I had a Hammerli P240 that shot great groups with RCBS's green
lube, but groups opened up when I tried Tamarack lube. Perhaps it's the individual
gun that has it's own preference for a particular lube. Any thoughts on that?
The Orange Magic has been working well for me and it smells pretty good to
boot although it's a little pricey.

[Bass Ackward]

This is one of the greatest mysteries in cast bullets. But why does LLA work for some, and fail so miserably for others using the same techniques? I will make a .... guess.

If I can develop a load that does not produce enough pressure to over obturate the bullets base beyond the hardness of the metal to the point that friction exceeds the capability of the lube, I can shoot LLA.

That means that taller / wider rifling heights that hold the bullet back more and thus increase pressure and friction, lower the velocity ceiling use for LLA. If you use a tumble lube bullet design with lower rifling heights, you get increased bearing area because of the lack of groove space which helps low rifling height guns even more to obtain higher velocities. In certain applications where gas cutting would blow off solid lubes before a seal was established, like lever and handgun throats or rough or poorly dimensioned barrels, LLA may be the only answer that works.

So anyone with a clear focus or adjenda for higher velocity / pressure use trying to get the maximum use out of their caliber is not going to have the right mind set to achieve the best results with LLA. Other lubes are "probably" going to tend to outperform, maybe in a BIG way. Notice I did not say that Liquid Alox CAN'T be used at high(er) velocity, just higher pressure.

Now, looked at from another point of view, anyone that wants the most latitude for powder selection, load choice, and bullet hardness using cast under the widest pressure ranges, will probably find conventional lubes to be superior to what they want to try to achieve. Guys with better barrel dimensions and finishes can and will probably benifit here also.

The smart or lucky guy learns how to use both. Sometimes, both at the same time if needed. LLA on the front of the bullet where it contacts the throat / rifling helps speed the bullets start to cut pressure and prevent leading in the throat before the hydrolic pressure is established from obturation which takes pressure to achieve. My highest velocities with soft bullets comes from using both techniques.

If you can't win fair in life, .... cheat. I use any and all three methods when it is to my advantage to do so. And I have 6 lubrisizors with different lube concoctions for different applications as well. They all get utilized when required.

[454PB]

Welcome to the boards, DPD. We have a member here that sells boolit lubes at very reasonable prices if you don't want to make your own....here's his site:

http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/

I have used the LLA, and had good results. Yes, it is messy, but I clean it off my hands with some Gunscrubber quickly and easily. I find it's easier to size the boolits first using my normal case sizing lube and Lee push through dies, then coat the boolits with LLA. I warm the LLA in a microwave and have never had to thin it.

I also use a Star sizer and two Lyman 450's. The Star is a lot faster than the Lymans, but also takes longer to adjust to the individual boolit. In these traditional sizers, I mostly use homemade 50/50 Alox beeswax, but have experimented with many lube recipes.

[woodman51jfk]

...well then.....I reckon that'll give me something to mull over for a bit, while I do some research on costs & more reviews of Star & Lyman tools, I'll be double dipping my boolits in the LLA fer sure.........really 'preciate all the responses, and the logic behind the various opinions.......Y'all Take Care......

[DPD]

454BP,
Thanks for the welcome and the heads up on the bullet lube site. I'll definetly
be using the lsstuff in the future.

[Newtire]

...well then.....I reckon that'll give me something to mull over for a bit, while I do some research on costs & more reviews of Star & Lyman tools, I'll be double dipping my boolits in the LLA fer sure.........really 'preciate all the responses, and the logic behind the various opinions.......Y'all Take Care......

Looks like another chance to campaign for LLA. I love the way it works for me and for the mess just a little mica powder from Midway takes care of the mess.

I also haven't anything bad to report on the 2-batches of Felix-Lube I have made.

I bought some Lars Carnauba Red and it has worked well at full out in .44 mag. rifle, .444 rifle, .30-30 & .30-30 Ackley. I haven't had leading with any of these lubes at full out in those three calibers as well as alot of other stuff in .30-06, .30 carbine .32 mag.... so I am wondering like Bass if it just isn't something else that is causing the leading problems.

I even use Win. 296 at 20.5 gr. and a Lee 300 gr. lead bullet water dropped and sized at .431 but with magnum primers (the only things they had at our local gun shop) in .44 magnum and I get zip leading in a Ruger carbine barrel whereas others get instant leading no matter what. I am just glad I don't and am moving on.

I haven't given the Lars much of a chance yet but so far it's Felix-Lube and LLA for me and the Lars has worked in everything I tried it in so far.

Just a personal observation...

[Ricochet]

I've never used anything but magnum primers (CCI) with 296 in .44 Mag, because that's what the Winchester loading manual said back in 1976. It gave a load of 25 grains with the 240 grain SWCGC bullet, and 24 grains with the 240 grain jacketed. It said to never use less or more than that. I've still got a few of those Winchester swaged lead 240 grain SWCGC bullets squirreled away.

[44man]

You CAN use less then what WW says is the minimum, just go by the loading manuals. You can't go lighter then the manuals recommend though. You can go down to 21.5 gr's of 296 with a 240 gr boolit. Accuracy will peak at about 23 gr's. And 296 does NOT need mag primers. I cut all groups with every bullet and boolit by 2/3's with Fed 150's. The velocity difference is very small between the two primers.
My SBH has recently exceeded 57,600 rounds and I have owned 7 .44's since 1956. I doubt that I used more then a few hundred mag primers once I seen what the standard primer would do. If I make a mistake and grap the wrong (mag) primers, I push them back out. I won't waste a boolit with them.

[Newtire]

Not to belabor the point of does LLA work or not as Bass points out, I just thought I'd add something for those who are having trouble with the waxed paper sticking. I used a plastic shopping bag one day and have "never looked back". It works so well that it would fit into a WWMSD category. Just pick up the corners of the bag and shake them gently into the center. (What Would Martha Stewart Do?).

[Ricochet]

That's a nice tip, Newtire, thanks!

I'll bet Martha Stewart would make a hell of a boolit caster, if she got interested.