Is it pressure I worry about or fps? I still don't understand

[chutestrate]

I still can't get my head around it. I have gone to the lasc links a number of times to read, and I think I understand it. But when it comes to making changes to the lead I am using I don't know what to do with it.

I have some bullets that test out at 14 bhn with a lee hardness tester. I loaded some 10mm with aa9 using the lee load book. I experienced leading in my witnesses and delta elite barrels. It looked as though I had smears along the lands of the barrel most of the way down. Some have given the advice that my molds aren't fitting the barrel tightly enough. I haven't found a piece of lead soft enough yet slug the barrel.

Maybe I went into this venture with the wrong intentions. I wanted to save money by casting and reloading my own. I'm not all that gungho about playing around with the hardness each and every time I get a new batch of lead in.

Ahhhhhhhh, can anyone simplify this for me or is this the way casters approach their craft?

[Ole]

Semi auto pistols usually have shallower lands/grooves which might require a harder bullet than you would need with a revolver.

[Bass Ackward]

It's both. And you have to learn to diagnose which is not necessarily your problem but needs correct for THAT load in THAT gun.

If you are too soft for pressure, This will generally appear as lube break down and the lead will be uniformly distributed close to the breech end.

You can also lead from lube breakdown or lack of it from velocity that again will appear uniform but at the muzzle this time.

Lead down the rifling is more often caused by copper or other fouling than hardness. But it can be that also.

And if these are new barrels, the reamers can punch if they weren't given the time needed to cut. So what you have is a little flair on the ends of the rifling that spread out the lead when it engraves wider than the actual rifling so that you don't touch some of the rifling.

OR it's metal fouling that does the same thing. In that case a softer bullet and less velocity may be needed if you don't want to correct the actual problem.

If this were a game show, I would vote copper or cleaning. A white light source is invaluable here. Like an LED light. Shine it in, not toward your eye, but infront of it and look around after you cleaned. See just how well you did. If you lead, and you don't get it out 100%, you will be back in the same position very shortly. Your eye can pick up the land issue if it is a problem too. When I have a problem, I'd say it's I missed up cleaning 80% of the time.

[243winxb]

Antimony makes bullets harder. Tin keeps it from leading. Add Linotype to your BHN 14 alloy. Air cooled boolits.

[thegreatdane]

I'd say fit should be your main concern. Unless you're pushing some serious FPS in that 10, I'd vote fit. What's your load if you don't mind me asking? I load Pb 10mm too. Maybe I can help.

[chutestrate]

thank you

Load is right out of the lee book. I started with the minimum, 12.2 gr aa9 i think. then tried a few @ 13gr aa9, and then 13.7 aa9. It was .1 gr under the load max. I've got it lubed with 50/50 lee alox. it's too heavy because I can see the brown lube pretty clearly. projectile is 175 gr, 14 bhn according to the lee tester.

some of the questions i have is that the pressures i'm loading for are quite a bit higher than what the tester recommends for my loads. so do i do as the tester says or play around with it?

[thegreatdane]

the Lee manual loads pretty hot for 10mm. You might wanna cross reference other books for equal boolit weights.

So I'd say troubleshoot two things:
-Fit
-Load

IIRC, about 13 grains is pushing pretty hard. 1250 fps?

Edit: it's pressure and fit, not so much velocity.

[sqlbullet]

Play with it.

I push plenty of 175 grain TL bullets down my Witness with no degradation of accuracy.

And, that bears mentioning. I have never had a no lead fouling excursion with any of my guns and cast bullets. I have had plenty of 100-200 round range sessions and not experienced any drop in accuracy. The barrels always shine after a pass or two with the brass brush and a few patches. That meets my needs for no leading. Leading in my mind is a buildup that eventually degrades accuracy.

Fit may be it. My Witness's both slug at .4005". I carefully buffed my lee sizing die out to about .402".

[9.3X62AL]

All good info above. After you check out those factors, and have a good idea what your throat and groove diameters are--make certain that you aren't down-sizing your boolits with your loading tools.

1) Check diameter of your die set's expander spud. If it is .395"-.396", it can and will downsize a .401" boolit when seated. Guaranteed. Lyman's Multi-Charge Die spud is .3985", as best my mic can tell. Much mo betta.

2) LAY OFF the taper crimp die. Those (expletives deleted) things are from the devil.

A) DO NOT seat cast boolits at the same time you set a taper crimp, even the most gentle of taper crimps. That combination of actions WILL reduce boolit diameter.

B) DO NOT taper crimp to some ill-defined "cartridge mouth diameter" with ANY cast boolit cartridge. You are likely to reduce boolit diameter, AND to potentially reduce case mouth tension. Brass tubing has A LOT more springback than does boolit metal after compression.

All that needs doing is to turn straight the case mouth flare that allowed seating of the boolit. THAT'S IT. Just the slightest "kiss" of the sizing die (minus decapping assembly) on the casing's mouth flare after bullet seating is sufficient.

Velocity is a positive side-effect of pressure, assuming that your pressure is within a caliber's and platform's design envelope. The things to worry about with cast boolits MOST are the dimensional relationship of your castings to the firearm's throat and grooves--and once you've established those dimensions to not mess them up by completion of the loading cycle. Boolit metallurgy and lube formula are well down the list of prime concerns for me.

[mike in co]

to hazard a guess...those loads have too much pressure(thus velocity) for the soft lead you are using.
but
you must get all else right before going fast....

boolit size...you have to slug your bbl.....
boolit lube...should make it to the end of the bbl...run out and you will most likely lead the muzzle.
try water dropping to get harder...

someone once pointed out that if you can get your velocity with less than 20kpsi...less likely to lead...or something like that.
(11 of 9 with your soft boolit, 10.5 of 9 with a hard boolit are both around 20kpsi and 1000 or so fps)

mike in co

[thegreatdane]

+1 on water quenching. It's the easiest way to harded WW alloy.

[chutestrate]

:killingpc

Ok, maybe this wasn't the hobby to start to save money. I find it all very interesting, and I am smarter for digging into it. But, my goal is to make it to the range more often. I have increased the amount of time between loading and shooting.

First I have to cast, then wait a week or 2 to let the metals properly harden. Then I have to test. Then IF they are suitable I can load them, but not without testing a batch first.

meh, I think I'm going to cast all my lead into .45's, and call it a day.

You guys are great with the advice, but it's always a few steps backwards. Not that it isn't valid and something I need to do if I want to become proficient.

[HighHook]

Keep it simple with autos. I load 10mm w/200 gr at 1000fps and 40s&w w/175 at 850. Bullets fits barrel, no crimp, shoot as much as you want no leading. If you have to shoot fast J words slip in another barrel. Im Done.

[TomAM]

I'm not all that gungho about playing around with the hardness each and every time I get a new batch of lead in.

Ahhhhhhhh, can anyone simplify this for me or is this the way casters approach their craft?

For a simple and effective solution without all the fussing over alloy hardness, you can use........ dare I say it......... Gas Checks.

[chutestrate]

Keep it simple with autos. I load 10mm w/200 gr at 1000fps and 40s&w w/175 at 850. Bullets fits barrel, no crimp, shoot as much as you want no leading. If you have to shoot fast J words slip in another barrel. Im Done.

I don't understand the last part of your post.

[Rocky Raab]

chutestrate, much of your frustration stems from tackling a very difficult project off the bat. High-pressure semi-autos are tough to load cast bullets for. Revolvers are where most new casters ought to begin, then low-pressure semi-autos like the 45. Later, when the basic concepts become second nature is the time to start tackling rifles and high-pressure pistols. Even then, you can be left scratching your noggin a bit.

Otherwise, it's like trying to grasp jet dogfighting maneuvers before you learn to land.

[44man]

Pressure--no, I have gone to 55,000 psi without leading.
Time of pressure---YES. Too soft a boolit and skidding --yes.
Tiny cases that need fast powders have many problems but they can be over come.
You must do some thinking and work. Stop doing the same things over and over expecting something to change.
Changing the powder charge only is just doing the same things over. You have other issues.

[HighHook]

I don't understand the last part of your post.

Ok. The 9mm, 10mm and 40s&w tend to be barrel leaders in fast comp. shooting. You need to keep the velocity down and well lubed. The fun part is testing bullets, lube, powder and spring tension for the brass to drop in the right place( Kind of like a pool game)
All my action pistols have extra barrels and springs for shooting (Jacketed-Ooch) Condom bullets extremely fast.
The 45acp is by far the easiest to deal with.

High Hook

[Harter66]

If I might make a work up suggestion.

I've loaded 9mm,40S&W,45ACP for autos. My method is this:
1 build a dummy that will just chamber to battery FOR THAT GUN,meaning bullet size too.

2 if for example your minimum charge is 8gr and a max is 10gr, load 5 each at 8.0,8.2,8.4,etc. As a rule if the last 5 in the magizine feed they all will.

3 incress the loads as above only untill they cycle correctly then work in 0.1 till they group or you max out.

As a note I shoot them all for groups and check and bore brush between mags. Generally I get good cycling at the 3rd load and good groups around half the book window . I also cross check load limits in at least 3 books.

+1 for water quenching.
+1 for case expantion/belling
+1 for minimum to no crimp

[c3d4b2]

Here is the data from the Accurate Arms Website

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/accurate_load_data_3.4.pdf


No.9 170 LC SWC_____9.2__ 878__10.2___998___34,900__1.115
No.9 185 LC RN SWC__8.7_._ 841___9.7___956___33,500__1.120
No.9 200 LC TC______7.8__._774___8.7___880___35,000__1.110

[Gohon]

Some people simply make casting and shooting much harder than it needs to be. I cast straight WW air cooled with 2-3% tin which averages 11-12 BHN. All my casts are .002-.003 over bore diameter and lubed with nothing more than LLA/JPW at a 50/50 mix. I've run these casts bare bottom through rifles at 1600 fps with no leading. When faster is needed I use gas checks and run up 2200 fps and still no leading. Bullet to bore fit is the number one key. Correct that and stay within the parameters of the load manual and you'll do fine.

You don't have to wait two weeks to shoot. A cast whether air cooled, water dropped, or oven heat treated will in 48 hours only be one or two points shy of the max hardness it is going to get in two weeks. Cast, size, lube, load and then wait a day or two and go shoot. Don't make it harder than it really is.

[thegreatdane]

stay close to minimums with the lee book. As you can see it's over max from the powder manufacturer. Its always a good practice to cross reference. Approach your hotter data with caution.

I'm watching this thread closely and anxiously anticipating your results.

[mike in co]

:killingpc

Ok, maybe this wasn't the hobby to start to save money. I find it all very interesting, and I am smarter for digging into it. But, my goal is to make it to the range more often. I have increased the amount of time between loading and shooting.

First I have to cast, then wait a week or 2 to let the metals properly harden. Then I have to test. Then IF they are suitable I can load them, but not without testing a batch first.

meh, I think I'm going to cast all my lead into .45's, and call it a day.

You guys are great with the advice, but it's always a few steps backwards. Not that it isn't valid and something I need to do if I want to become proficient.

wait two weeks my sorry butt.......
water drop, size load and shoot..the same day.....

water drop means just that not air cooled but water cooled dropped from the mold( do not get h2o in the mold...the tensle fair will visit ..not fun)
ues a 5 gal bucket with an old t shirt over the top sagging in the water...let the boolits fall through the neck
dry a bit, lube/size....load and shoot.....

that simple...what is this waiting weeks crud......
dont skip steps..if you have not slugged your bore....go do it....., if you are casting ww's....water drop them for your 10mm.
( oh by the way i STARTED casting for a 44rem mag.....255's at 1340....and .75 group at 25 yds.....alll by listening to guys on the original shooters cast forum)

mike in co

[Bret4207]

Okay, so to back up a little bit, you're shooting an extremely hot load, a possible over load for your gun, certainly for your fit/alloy/gun/lube combination. So back up, get things back to square one and work from there. Start with Accurate data, I have almost no use for the Lee manuals recommendations. I know some guys love them, but I've found errors and plain wrong information in the Lee guides. So go back to square one and start there.

1- Get your barrel CLEAN, I mean NO jacket or powder fouling.

2- Either slug the barrel or measure the inside diameter of a fired case mouth to get an idea of what the maximum you can size to is. Usually the max casemouth diameter will be where you end up sizing to with a one diameter boolit.

3- Simplify. STOP FRETTING OVER THE BHN!!! It means NOTHING at this point. It's just a relative number for comparison. Do yourself a favor and get as much alloy as you can together, melt it all up in a big batch and learn to use what you have. With common WW alloy, maybe with a little tin added to "juice" the fillout, you should be able to do almost anything you'd reasonably expect from a 10mm. Water quenching or heat treating or gas checks can help depending on what your gun and load dictate.

4- Start low and slow and RECORD YOUR OBSERVATIONS. Don't depend on your memory, only change one thing at a time (seating depth, size, powder charge) and RECORD YOUR OBSERVATIONS. Start low and work upwards slowly. In your case you need a load that will cycle the gun that's accurate enough for your purposes. When you get to that point the rest can come at your leisure.

5- FIT IS KING. That's actually the number one rule with cast. You have static fit (initial size) and dynamic fit (what the powder/pressure does to the boolit). I recommend trying to get as close to perfect static fit as you can to start with, it seems to always affect the dynamic fit in a positive manner. Some people rely on obturation (using the powder charge to mash the boolit into putty and swage it into the throat/barrel to fit it to the gun) but, while it works in many cases, it is the wrong way to go about things IMO. Better to start off with a boolit that's fitted to the gun. After all, if we're going to mash the boolit into putty why are we even bothering to produce a perfectly cast and sized boolit? Sometimes obturation is unavoidable because of the need for a base pressure to cycle a bottom feeder like you have. Regardless, it's still better to limit the obturation IMO. So start with a well fitted boolit, start with bottom end loads, use a good lube (Mule Snot, Lee Liquid Alox, gets iffy as pressures rise) and see what happens. Record it. Don't be afraid to come back and discuss your findings.

You want to shoot more for less $$$. You can, but there's a learning curve with this art. It's not a hard and fast science.

[btroj]

I hear you Bret. It is more art than science. This whole 1422 times bhn thing is a neat number but is it really something to get all worked up over? Nope.
Cast, load, shoot. That is what I do. I don't mix up real specific alloys. I might add mag shot for harder bullets or some pure lead for softer but that is what I do, I add "some".
Go try some different things. Your gun will speak load and clear when it does not like something. This is called learning.
And Bret was really right about fit. If you get nothing else right be sure the bullet fits the barrel. Not what the barrel is supposed to be, or should be, but what it IS. No two guns are exactly the same. Give yours what it wants and all is good.
Now go learn. Go shoot. Go test.. This is the only way to learn to cast and shoot lead bullets.
Learning to cast and shoot lead bullets is an art that can not be learned via reading, it can only be learned with hours at the pot and the range. It really is that simple.

[chutestrate]

Very good advice folks, thank you. I think I will begin again with my 45 since it is a low pressure round, and learn there. I will order some pure lead and get my barrels slugged.

I'm afraid that I can't let go of the bhn questions. It is very relevant. From all of the discussions that I read someone will test, see their bullets as too hard or soft, and make corrections. That is what I am trying to understand so I can feel comfortable to do it myself.

I have cast lots of ingots, probably 150lbs worth. So can I test the hardness of an ingot and make piles of different bhn's?

So if it is possible to cast, cool, load, shoot, maybe I can handle this.

Here's my goal, and please don't take this the wrong way. I'm just being realistic about my expectations.

My take away so far is that most importantly fit of bullet to barrel is critical. If I establish that my molds are good, then I am back to the hardness/pressure questions. Harder bullets can withstand more pressure. I am not talking about anything outside published and accepted manuals by the way.

So in simple speak for example my 45 acp projectile can be softer because they are a low pressure round. My 10mm is a high pressure round so I need to have a harder projectile.
I want to cast, load, and shoot.

I want to get to know my firearms the way that is advised here so I can cast appropriately. I would like to understand enough so I can test an ingot, say hmm, that is too hard or soft I should add this or that to match it to what I am casting for. I don't want to play around with different hardnesses to find out what I can do with this or that. I really don't care. If my ingot tests at 6 bhn, and I am looking for something around 20, I want to have an idea of where to start.

Am I being unrealisitic?

[mike in co]

i do not own a hardness tester....

i do own micrometers and soft lead........

you do not need to know the hardness to shoot it....

you just size it for the gun, lube it and try......if it leads, add a better lube or slow it down or both....

lead at the muzzle is running out of lube

[Bass Ackward]

I don't want to play around with different hardnesses to find out what I can do with this or that. I really don't care. If my ingot tests at 6 bhn, and I am looking for something around 20, I want to have an idea of where to start. Am I being unrealisitic?


Nope. People say fit is king. I disagree.

I say the age old reloading principle we were taught since we were kids, starting way low and coming up is the secret to cast use. This single step eliminates lube problems, hardness problems, and a whole host of other issues. Cause each gun is different you do what it wants. Not what YOU want it to want.

The guy who starts way low and comes up can shoot anything without knowing anything about it. It may not be the most accurate the gun is capable, but it gets lead going down the bore.

Then when you want the next level of cast performance, then fit takes on way more importantce in some guns. Eeach variable becomes a class all by itself and you decide which ones and when you want to take them.

[Larry Gibson]

I concur with Bass that "starting way low and coming up is the secret to cast use" is the way to begin developing a load. I have to kind of disagree in that "fit" along with a few other things are necessary for success even when working up a load. I do think that we do over think many componants initially in load development. It is this "over thinking" that causes a lot of problems that shouldn't be there. Again agreeing with Bass, if a successful load is developed then we can change some componants to in crease accuracy or effectiveness but that is a somewhat advanced technique that is only mastered after the basic loading technique (as in working up loads) is learned and understood. Too many want to jump right to the advanced techniques without learning the basics.

Larry Gibson

[Harter66]

I'm a range hound , I shoot quite a bit of just range scrap,and wheel weight, lead seals,battery cable ends,lead flashing,etc.

MLballs from flashing and cable ends ,45Colts,and 357 hunting boolits from the seals,j-word cores make boolits for general practice ,wheel weights for the 9mm,40,32Rem,8x57,308,30-06'.

Don't over think this . After all the bare round ball defeated the Brits. A greased maxi-ball has probably only taken a million or so deer,and the buffalo hunters shot all day casted and loaded all night and did it again .

[chutestrate]

I can agree with Larry and Bass. I have reloaded for years using commercial cast and jacketed components. Finding out the fit of the bullet to the bore is good information to have. I used to compete in ipsc quite heavily, and loaded thousands of cast 9mm and 45's. i remember going out of my way to look for high bhn ratings so I would avoid leading during long matches. I never felt that my accuracy suffered. I guess that is what is on my brain as I try to get comfortable with the casting.

[WILCO]

Go back to square one and get a book on cast boolits. The new Lyman is a place to start.
Understand the basics and try again with simpler projects. Maybe pick up a .22 pistol in the mean time for practice @ the range. Last thing, if you're gonna fail, fail fast and move on. Life's too short.

[thegreatdane]

the 10 has been a bit of a challenge for me also. 9mm is slightly less challenging, and .45 was has been perfect since day one.

[chutestrate]

Go back to square one and get a book on cast boolits. The new Lyman is a place to start.
Understand the basics and try again with simpler projects. Maybe pick up a .22 pistol in the mean time for practice @ the range. Last thing, if you're gonna fail, fail fast and move on. Life's too short.

Wilco are you trying to say something? If not trying to help please use the ignore button, and move on. I'm sorry if you don't like this thread, but a lot of the responses are informative and helpful which yours is not. There are others who are also finding it informative.

I hope to to be able help someone in the future from what I am finding out here. Please don't drag this down to a pissing contest.

[fredj338]

So in simple speak for example my 45 acp projectile can be softer because they are a low pressure round. My 10mm is a high pressure round so I need to have a harder projectile.
I want to cast, load, and shoot.
The 45acp is certainly less finicky when it comes to alloy, fit is still king. I have good results shooting straight ac ww alloy in the 10mm using a 175grTC @ 0.401" W/ Unique or AA#7 to 1100fps or so. It's all I am asking of that bullet & it works fine sized & lubed w/ CarnubaRed or BAC. I don't test my alloy each time. I cast from straight ww w/ a few oz of lino thrown in to sweeten the pot (about 3%), since all ww are not alike anymore. Yeah, it's not alloy science, but reasonably repeatable & easy to do.

[waksupi]

I disagree about cast, quench and shoot the same day. Test a boolit that has just been quenched, and they will test as nearly pure lead. In 24 hours, they will be at near full hardness.

[WILCO]

Wilco are you trying to say something? If not trying to help please use the ignore button, and move on. I'm sorry if you don't like this thread, but a lot of the responses are informative and helpful which yours is not. There are others who are also finding it informative.

I hope to to be able help someone in the future from what I am finding out here. Please don't drag this down to a pissing contest.



I still can't get my head around it. Maybe I went into this venture with the wrong intentions. I wanted to save money by casting and reloading my own. I'm not all that gungho about playing around with the hardness each and every time I get a new batch of lead in.

Ahhhhhhhh, can anyone simplify this for me or is this the way casters approach their craft?


None of the stated above was my intent. You asked for advice/opinions in your original post as you seemed to be struggling with the basic concept of cast boolits and the myriad of intricacies involved with their nature of use while displaying aggravation and disenchantment with such endeavors. The world of cast boolits is not for everyone and I suggested a trip to square one with a fresh outlook. I also thought it might be helpful to use a .22 pistol as it’s a lot less stressful to get range time in whilst you sort out the issues regarding pressure/velocity/hardness/leading. Twenty different people telling you how to run is of no use if one doesn’t understand basic concepts relative to walking. As far as the fail fast and move on advice, ask any motivational speaker about failure and getting oneself mired in it. End result is much waste and discontent with no progress. Life indeed is too short for such drama and I shan’t respond to any more of your posts in the future. Good day Sir!

[btroj]

I still say fit is the most important thing. I can also agree with Bass that start low and work up is important too. If you can't get a load that doesn't lead on the low velocity loads then increasing to max velocity isn't going to help matters.
In the end we all have said a similar thing. It takes time and effort to learn what does, or does not, work. Many of us here have spent decades learning what we now THINK we know. It did not come about by asking questions here. It came thru many days at the range finding what did or did not work. We learned more from our failures than our sucess. As you can see many of us have differing points of view. This is because there is no one single right answer. We each have migrated towards what works for each individual.
Test, test, test. This is where you learn. What worked, what did not. The school of hard knocks is the best teacher when it comes to casting and shooting lead bullets.
I know this is not the answer you want but it is the truth. Don't over think things but also realize that shooting cast takes time to learn and understand. It is a passion, not simply a choice. I do not save money by shooting cast, I just shoot a lot more for the same money. I also get a lot of satisfaction from making my own bullets. It is this type of attitude that makes me cast bullet shooter, not merely the shooting of a lead projectile.

[HighHook]

For general plinking and range shooting i have my hot pot of WW and anything i can find to throw in to melt down. A small piece of lino or solder i have laying around and call it casting fest. Hardness tester I've never seen one but pictures. I have used my fingernail for 30 years. They do seem to harden up more after a day and dropping in water helps it along faster if harder is what you want.

Now i am curious of all the fingernail testers?:redneck:
High Hook

[Bret4207]

I can agree with Larry and Bass. I have reloaded for years using commercial cast and jacketed components. Finding out the fit of the bullet to the bore is good information to have. I used to compete in ipsc quite heavily, and loaded thousands of cast 9mm and 45's. i remember going out of my way to look for high bhn ratings so I would avoid leading during long matches. I never felt that my accuracy suffered. I guess that is what is on my brain as I try to get comfortable with the casting.

Sorry, I'm going to confuse you some more.

I can take my alloy and produce at least 2 or 3 different Bhns with differing performance characteristics. I can take 2 or 3 different alloys and produce the same Bhn with differing characteristics. I can probably take all 6 and produce accurate loads by juggling the variables. BHN IS JUST A RELATIVE NUMBER FOR COMPARISON. Bhn says nothing about the sheer strength of an alloy, it's ductility, it's brittleness or it's tensile strength. Without knowing the makeup of the alloy and what the variations result in all we're doing is using Bhn as a general comparative tool. Go ahead and water quench some unknown alloy to 30 Bhn. Fine. Now go and see if it shoots because in the end that's what matters! I can guarantee with 100% certainty that I can take the hardest alloy you can produce and I can turn it into lead alloy plating in most handguns and any rifle.

Hardness, Bhn, it's ALL advertising hype until you have enough experience under your belt to be able to relate what you observe to what that alloy at that Bhn means. This is why I maintain that the single greatest disservice ever done to cast boolit shooters was the advertising of HARDCAST and the concentration on Bhn numbers. It seems every single new caster goes through the "harder is better" phase. Wrong, harder is different, but not necessarily better. Keep that in mind and you'll be 2 steps ahead of everyone else.

[sqlbullet]

Chutestrate, as you no doubt have divined, for many here casting boolits has become an end to itself.

Reading your posts it is clear to me you are not interested in casting boolits. You want to shoot them as much as possible. Casting will be tolerated to the extent it enables you to shoot more than buying bullets.

So, cast 200-300 boolits. Water drop, but don't size them. Lightly lube them with LLA. Load them over Unique, or another mediumish powder. Start with the starting load and work up. I find Unique burns better once I get near max.

Shoot groups, and shoot for function. Don't look at the barrel unless you have accuracy issues that get worse over time.

Once you find a load your gun likes, cast 1000 boolits at a time minimum. I probably have 3000 cast and lubed for my 10mm right now. I have another 1000 for my M1 Garand.

Hope this helps you get to the range and enjoy shooting!

[chutestrate]

What you say is making sense, but now the confusion is coming full circle I think. What IS important? Some of this has to be repeatable.

I have a feeling I'm going to not have any problems with my .45 loads. I remember loading the commercial cast, and they would easily be marked by a fingernail. The high pressure stuff is where I'm still not getting it.

Ok, hard is different not better. I can appreciate the guidelines using the bhn idea. That is what I'm trying to get to. Something that is generally repeatable. Again, maybe I'm being unrealistic. for example in a range of 14 -17 bhn that may work for cartridges in the 36k pressure range or in the 1400fps range.

Maybe this is the question I should be asking. If bhn is not all that important what is it about the commercial cast loads that let me load whatever published speed I want within the caliber I am loading? for instance i loaded "hard cast" 9mm using titegroup 4.2 gr and 115 gr lead slug. Barrel was clean after a couple hundred rounds.

[Harter66]

Your commercial hard cast were probably sized .358 for your .355 bbl. .001-.002 over.

As mentioned above I pounce every lead scrap I can get, there's a fellow out here that can't figure out how he has lead fouling with copper plated bullets. Its easy the plated bullets were .355+ before plating and shoot pretty well in his 357,the throat is peeling the copper off leaving just soft bare lead in the bore of the 9mm. Unless your just lucky or special order you won't get that clean bore every lot. Rolling your own you get to controlthat bit of the QC process. Just as a gee wiz I've maxed out my 357 with a 158 gr RNFP from my accurate 100 fps alloy at somewhat over 1400 w/o leading , they shoot fine in my 1946 38 S&W too.

[9.3X62AL]

10mm boolits sized to .401" and run to 1200 FPS (205 grain RCBS) have never given me grief. Same story with 40 S&W and .401" castings. 45 ACP has been trouble-free, also.

Why? STRICT adherence by barrel-makers to SAAMI specs. 10mm and 40 S&W barrels are ALWAYS throated and grooved .400"-.401". 45 ACP barrels are ALWAYS throated and grooved @ .451"-.452".

Where I have had problems is with the (serial expletives deleted) 9mm and its POETIC adherence to throating and grooving standards.

9mm, 10mm, and 40 S&W aren't "beginner" cast boolit calibers. In truth, they are more rifle calibers than pistol rounds, owing to their high pressures and faster-than-hell twist rates. A relatively harder alloy can be beneficial--I use 92/6/2 for all my high-pressure autopistol rounds AND for 45 ACP, since a few 45 ACP barrels use shallow grooves intended for jacketed bullets. This prevents skidding in my experience.

Size still matters, and finishes first in my race to avoid leading and enhance accuracy. Keeping that sizing unchanged through the loading cycle is as critical as attaining it initially. Just my dos centavos.

[chutestrate]

thanks harter

I think I''m going to try the alloys from rotometals while i play around with the 45 and learn what i can. i order 5lbs of the super hard alloy. i'll figure out how much to start with in an empty pot using their formula. if i can ball park the amount to use then i can measure the hardness to see what it does for me.

I know I'm stuck on this hardness thing, but it seems to be just as important as fit in the barrel. I think I can safely say that no one is going to load a .357 mag round @1300fps with pure lead that fits the barrel perfectly and expect minimal leading. The alloy needs some strength.

So, I hear you guys say don't worry about bhn and that's fine. Should we call it metal strengthening? It seems to be pretty important.

[Bret4207]

What you say is making sense, but now the confusion is coming full circle I think. What IS important? Some of this has to be repeatable.

I have a feeling I'm going to not have any problems with my .45 loads. I remember loading the commercial cast, and they would easily be marked by a fingernail. The high pressure stuff is where I'm still not getting it.

Ok, hard is different not better. I can appreciate the guidelines using the bhn idea. That is what I'm trying to get to. Something that is generally repeatable. Again, maybe I'm being unrealistic. for example in a range of 14 -17 bhn that may work for cartridges in the 36k pressure range or in the 1400fps range.

Maybe this is the question I should be asking. If bhn is not all that important what is it about the commercial cast loads that let me load whatever published speed I want within the caliber I am loading? for instance i loaded "hard cast" 9mm using titegroup 4.2 gr and 115 gr lead slug. Barrel was clean after a couple hundred rounds.

Why did the commercial work for you? 'Cuz they fit to start with. You got lucky. To put it simply, if a boolit fits AND the gun likes the boolit design you can do all sorts of stuff with it. Fast, slow and in between and all with good accuracy. The caveat? That's if you can find a load that makes the boolit and gun happy. Push a boolit too hard, no matter what the Bhn is, and it'll lead and shoot like krap. Add in poor fit and you won't even be able shoot it at mid range speeds. Soft or hard or in between if it' doesn't fit it won't shoot.

Asking for "the secret" to all this Bhn stuff is kind of like asking "what makes women tick?". Okay, it's not that bad! I think you're over thinking this or coming at it from the wrong angle. It's not just the Bhn that matters, it's the fit, the boolit design, the lube, the load, the crimp or lack of, the pressure, the pressure curve, burn time, throat design, rifling type and twist, bore wear, GC, PB, etc., etc., etc. Bhn comes in someplace down the line, but to Bhn you have to add the alloy composition because every alloy is different to one extent of another. Then there's heat treated or water quenched or air cooled or soft nosed or hollow pointed and probably more.

Start with fit with the alloy you have access to. That's square one. Low and slow, work up from there.

And to go back to your original question, about is it pressure or fps? Velocity is a result of pressure. Does that help?

[mike in co]

I disagree about cast, quench and shoot the same day. Test a boolit that has just been quenched, and they will test as nearly pure lead. In 24 hours, they will be at near full hardness.

yeah ..its true...but i have shot the stuff the next day....lets just say i dont intentionally age my water dropped boolits for weeks prior to use...

[Bass Ackward]

My water dropped work differently than yours apparently. Especially if I lower the antimony content. This pattern has enabled me to cheat with any new design.

I begin loading and shooting mine the same day I molded. I shoot several loads with increasing powder charges.

I then pick the best load from that first day's batch and I load and shoot that same load every day for two weeks or until I see groups begin to get larger. I still measure the slugs hardness so that they are all the same for that day. Any rocks get set aside.

The day that they shoot the best is the hardness I want to reproduce with THAT design in THAT gun.

This saves me from making up several batches or taking two to three years to get it right. Or it saves me from molding up a bunch of bullets that I have no use for.

So if they were to get rock hard the next day, it would be useless to me. I would just HT the batch to soften them and start the process over. And I gotta admit, the oven HT is superior for this use as WD can be all over the place as they age based upon too many variables.

[fecmech]

thanks harter


I know I'm stuck on this hardness thing, but it seems to be just as important as fit in the barrel. I think I can safely say that no one is going to load a .357 mag round @1300fps with pure lead that fits the barrel perfectly and expect minimal leading. The alloy needs some strength.



No you can't. I can show you 40/1 Lead tin(which is pretty close)@1350 out of .44 mag. Accuracy suffers somewhat as opposed to ACWW's but I hunted and killed a lot of woodchucks which has a modicum of accuracy required. I have some straight lead 358439 HP's that I'm pretty sure I can get out of the barrel at 1200+ and keep them inside about 4" at 50 yds. This would be with minimal leading. BTW .22 rimfires go 1200 fps @25 K psi with pretty close to pure lead bullets. I'm not advocating pure lead for 1200 fps and 30kPSI but it's a long way from impossible!
As some previous posters have suggested, cast ,load , shoot ,repeat.

[fredj338]

Why? STRICT adherence by barrel-makers to SAAMI specs. 10mm and 40 S&W barrels are ALWAYS throated and grooved .400"-.401". 45 ACP barrels are ALWAYS throated and grooved @ .451"-.452".
Except that you'll neve achieve that exact dims in every bbl. The first one off the CNC that day will be slightly larger than the last. Tool cutters wear & even though changed frequently, not two bbls will be identical.

[462]

"I think I can safely say that no one is going to load a .357 mag round @1300fps with pure lead that fits the barrel perfectly and expect minimal leading. The alloy needs some strength."

I've loaded Lee's 358-158 RF, cast of air-cooled 50/50 wheel weights/lead, to over 1350 fps and didn't have a trace of leading. I ran it up to a bit over 1400 fps but ran out of lube and got a bit muzzle leading, but none at the breech end. Both loads can be found in a Lyman handbook.

I think Elmer Keith considered what we call 16 BHN as being hard.

[geargnasher]

I still say fit is the most important thing. I can also agree with Bass that start low and work up is important too. If you can't get a load that doesn't lead on the low velocity loads then increasing to max velocity isn't going to help matters.
In the end we all have said a similar thing. It takes time and effort to learn what does, or does not, work. Many of us here have spent decades learning what we now THINK we know. It did not come about by asking questions here. It came thru many days at the range finding what did or did not work. We learned more from our failures than our sucess. As you can see many of us have differing points of view. This is because there is no one single right answer. We each have migrated towards what works for each individual.
Test, test, test. This is where you learn. What worked, what did not. The school of hard knocks is the best teacher when it comes to casting and shooting lead bullets.
I know this is not the answer you want but it is the truth. Don't over think things but also realize that shooting cast takes time to learn and understand. It is a passion, not simply a choice. I do not save money by shooting cast, I just shoot a lot more for the same money. I also get a lot of satisfaction from making my own bullets. It is this type of attitude that makes me cast bullet shooter, not merely the shooting of a lead projectile.

PLUS FREAKIN' ONE.

Gear

[HighHook]

Originally Posted by btroj View Post
I still say fit is the most important thing. I can also agree with Bass that start low and work up is important too. If you can't get a load that doesn't lead on the low velocity loads then increasing to max velocity isn't going to help matters.
In the end we all have said a similar thing. It takes time and effort to learn what does, or does not, work. Many of us here have spent decades learning what we now THINK we know. It did not come about by asking questions here. It came thru many days at the range finding what did or did not work. We learned more from our failures than our sucess. As you can see many of us have differing points of view. This is because there is no one single right answer. We each have migrated towards what works for each individual.
Test, test, test. This is where you learn. What worked, what did not. The school of hard knocks is the best teacher when it comes to casting and shooting lead bullets.
I know this is not the answer you want but it is the truth. Don't over think things but also realize that shooting cast takes time to learn and understand. It is a passion, not simply a choice. I do not save money by shooting cast, I just shoot a lot more for the same money. I also get a lot of satisfaction from making my own bullets. It is this type of attitude that makes me cast bullet shooter, not merely the shooting of a lead projectile.

PLUS FREAKIN' ONE.

Gear

Plus FREAKIN" ONE!!! ALSO

Well said btroj

High Hook

[Molly]

OK, two cents worth from here too. A lot of new guys start casting because the bullet cost is so low. They also figure to keep powder cost low too, and they use the powder that takes the least amount to generate the peak pressure. Sounds like this is where you are too, because top loads of fast burning powder under a cast bullet is almost a guarantee for leading, no matter if you have everything else perfect.

Try this:

1. Size your bullet as large as your gun will accept. For example, experienced shooters size bullets at 0.312" to shoot in a 0.308" bore. This alone goes a long way to prevent or minimize leading.
2. Seat your bullets out as far as you can without getting into problems with the clip or the chamber seating. You want your bullet to touch the rifling when you chamber a round, but not so hard that it will pull the bullet out if you have to pull the slide back.
3. Use the slowest powder that will give you the velocity you want. And don't decide you want 4,000 fps! Stay away from max loads, and strive for accurate loads that will reliably cycle your gun. You can play around with heavier loads later, after you have some experience and confidence.
4. Use a reasonably hard alloy. Wheelweights will work fine in 99 out of 100 handguns.
5. Use a gas check if your bullet is designed for one.

These simple, easy measures should provide you with loads that do not lead, and are accurate and reliable in your gun.

[mike in co]

5. Use a gas check if your bullet is designed for one.

.

ok i'm gonna disagree with this statement, and offer my reasoning.

the only gas check hand gun i have is my 44 rem mag ruger super redhawk...7.5" bbl
as mentioned clyinder is .4316, size to 4312 and the throat is/was 429.
i got most of my casting smarts from guy on the original shooter's cast forum.

in my gun....unchecked boolits out shoot gas checked boolits everytime...
while i am currently shooting 290/300 gr ww with tin/h2o drooped at 1100 fps or so i started with 255.
so why do the shoot better ?
MY OPINION:
the last contact the boolit has with the gun is as the boolit base passes the muzzle.
it is my belief that as cast bases are more uniform and square than are installed gas checks.
thats it...nothing more...nothing fancy...just a better boolit base.

limited experience, but consistant data. 245 to 300 gr(255 to 302 as shot) molds 1400 to 1000 fps...one gun one shooter....always with optics, from a rest,shot the same way at the same distance...25yds.

so try it both ways and let accuracy and cost drive your decision.

mike in co

[fredj338]

ok i'm gonna disagree with this statement, and offer my reasoning.
and cost drive your decision.

mike in co
I think what he meant was if the bullet design is for a gc, use a gc. I am hit or miss w/ gc designs vs plain base, some shoot better, some not. Every gun is diff.

[Molly]

>lead at the muzzle is running out of lube

Mike, not to pick on you, but just a general note for the information of all concerned. Cast bullets DO NOT run out of lube. In fact, they can be shot at high velocity just as they drop from the mold, without the slightest trace of lube, or even a gas check. And these loads will leae the bore bright, clean and unleaded. Accuracy isn't match quality, but it's plenty good enough for hunting or plinking.

I believed this old wives tale about running out of lube for years, until I was shooting through sheets of newspaper to see if my gas checks were coming off in flight. What I saw was strings of lube thrown off of the high velocity cast bullets in flight.

One day, I got mad and decided that 'd shoot some loads that I KNEW didn't run out of lube. I worked some bullet lube into a bore mop and took it to the range with me. Before each shot, I swabbed the bore repeatedy until it was completely covered with lube. There was no way that the bullet could come into direct contact with the bore without a layer of lube.

Accuracy didn't improve worth a bleep! And I still got lead flashing at the muzzle from hot loads. It took a while to figure out what was really going on, but running out of lube sure wasn't one of them.

[Molly]

ok i'm gonna disagree with this statement, and offer my reasoning.
mike in co

Hi mike,

The reasoning behind that recommendation was to give him every advantage to get his gun shooting well. I didn't intend it to be taken as a general recomendation. As a matter of fact, I agree wholeheartedly with Keith's conclusion that a gas check on a revolver bullet is a waste of time and money. I use only one GC design in any of my pistols, and that design was intended for a rifle round, but just happens to fit one of my pistols perfectly.

Hope this clears up any confusion.

[chutestrate]

:veryconfu

[Gohon]

:veryconfu

I don't know why you would be confused. Almost every post has told you the same thing over and over.......get the hard cast must have notion out of your head. Start from the bottom with proper bullet to bore fit and work up from there. As explained to you before you have been lucky that the store bought bullets fit your gun and shot well. The BHN of those bullets had little if anything to do with it. Most commercial casters sell so called hard cast for their own benefit......so their pretty little bullets don't get all banged up during shipment, not because they are the best thing since sliced bread. You can't have it both ways by expecting to just cast your own with a magic stack of ingots that always work. Sooner or later you will want to change bullet design, or increase/decrease speed, change guns, or a dozen other reasons that will change things around. Then what will you do? Experimenting is what it is all about and you have the tools to do it. Sorry to be curt but it just seems like you're waiting for someone to give you a magic formula and it ain't gonna happen.

[mike in co]

I think what he meant was if the bullet design is for a gc, use a gc. I am hit or miss w/ gc designs vs plain base, some shoot better, some not. Every gun is diff.

yes and that is what i disagreed with (leave the check off and see how it shoots)in my one simple case...and in the end said do what you want..if it works do it.

[Bret4207]

Mike, have you tried seating the GC's better and working on the base for better squareness? I had to do that with one design that had a habit of inconsistent GC seating. A little shaving and a FN punch on the base before sizing helped me.

[Bass Ackward]

I think the biggest reason for PB success over the same design in a GC is that it can never truly be the same design.

The reason is bullet balance. Lead weighs more than copper. That pulls the C of B back towards the base where it is easier to stabilize and stabilize longer.

So a PB can be more accurate if you or your gun doesn't destroy the base in the process of shooting.

That's a big reason why hollow pointing works so well. But in addition to throwing the weight back, hollow pointing also lightens the unsupported portion of the bullet, in effect strengthening (same as hardening) the front drive band making it easier to perform alignment and begin rotation without deformation of the slug.

[44man]

Sorry, I'm going to confuse you some more.

I can take my alloy and produce at least 2 or 3 different Bhns with differing performance characteristics. I can take 2 or 3 different alloys and produce the same Bhn with differing characteristics. I can probably take all 6 and produce accurate loads by juggling the variables. BHN IS JUST A RELATIVE NUMBER FOR COMPARISON. Bhn says nothing about the sheer strength of an alloy, it's ductility, it's brittleness or it's tensile strength. Without knowing the makeup of the alloy and what the variations result in all we're doing is using Bhn as a general comparative tool. Go ahead and water quench some unknown alloy to 30 Bhn. Fine. Now go and see if it shoots because in the end that's what matters! I can guarantee with 100% certainty that I can take the hardest alloy you can produce and I can turn it into lead alloy plating in most handguns and any rifle.

Hardness, Bhn, it's ALL advertising hype until you have enough experience under your belt to be able to relate what you observe to what that alloy at that Bhn means. This is why I maintain that the single greatest disservice ever done to cast boolit shooters was the advertising of HARDCAST and the concentration on Bhn numbers. It seems every single new caster goes through the "harder is better" phase. Wrong, harder is different, but not necessarily better. Keep that in mind and you'll be 2 steps ahead of everyone else.
Bret is saying good things here. I too hate the BHN thing and only use it for a reference because the same alloy can be toughened without adding a thing to the mix.
Let me direct you to a low pressure round, my 45-70 revolver. Yes I shoot it over 1600 fps but pressure is very low from the size of the case. I have gone to 1800 fps while testing.
Babore sent me test boolits. They are identical except one is cut for a gas check. They are cast of 50-50. I oven harden them to about 20 BHN.
However the PB is doing it's best to do 3" at 50 yards while the gas check boolits will cut one hole. Shooting either without hardening makes both useless for groups.
No matter, I get zero leading with these shot anyway but accuracy sure does suffer.
Moving to the .44 with more pressure and a soft boolit will deform, skid and lead the bore. I water drop WW metal for most shooting and will get 1-1/4" groups at 100 yards but if I switch to light loads of fast powders, I need to make the alloy harder by the addition of antimony and tin. Only then will I shoot groups as good as the slow powders.
I have one boolit that is .430", my bore is .430" and throats are .4324" yet it is extremely accurate without any leading---Just WD WW's. Any air cooled boolit opens groups, they might not lead the bore but it is the last thing I worry about, accuracy above all else.
Water dropping does not change the alloy, it makes it tougher and of course the BHN reading will be higher. That is why it is a silly number because the alloy is still the same.
Casting, water dropping and loading right away without the boolit given a chance to harden will allow the brass to size it when seating.
Does a difference between 22, 25 or 28 BHN, mixed, change groups---NO, if you use slow powders. But use a small case with fast powder that reaches full pressure while the boolit is still in the brass and you do better with harder. You might call it a low pressure load but the sudden rise is what defeats you.
Those little bitty cases that will not function with a slow powder means you are thumping the boolit before it even moves. If your .40 is accurate with jacketed, move that way with lead. Make the boolit tough enough and that might not mean an alloy change, just what you do with it.
Soft lead has no place in modern guns and smokeless. Save it for the soft pressure rise of BP.

[44man]

I have been working with a S&W revolver for the .45 ACP with moon clips. John brought boolits that are 9 BHN, .452". They lead the barrel like mad. Many boolits did not hit paper at 25 yards. We use Unique.
I cast my Lee boolits and water dropped them, let them age and am starting to get small groups with zero leading.
I had some fliers but then I found a vast difference in seating pressure with some cases, taking three times more pressure to seat a boolit.
Brass can be your biggest enemy.
Does boolit center of gravity mean much? Not in my opinion for a handgun. A hollow point, PB or a GC boolit makes no difference. I made molds for the .475 and .500 JRH that has most of the weight forward with tiny base bands that have shot sub 1/2" groups at 100 yards.
Here is a 50 yard group I shot with the .500 JRH using WD WW metal. Some will tell you the boolit can't shoot, too much weight forward and too thin a base band.

[waksupi]

Re-opened.

[looseprojectile]

The OP asked if it was pressure or velocity. Yes it is pressure or velocity or boolit fit or boolit alloy or wrong load. Question answered. Don't worry.
I have never seen a hardness tester. A hardness tester will not tell you what your alloy consists of.
I have never owned or fired a 40 caliber pistol. A nine mm gun has enough difficulty that I don't go there any more with cast boolits. But I could do it.
A person has to have enough curiosity and the ability and desire to make things work. Period.
It seems to me that the OP is trying to make cold iron blacksmithing a rocket science.
The OP was told what his problem is in the first two or three replies.

I get the feeling that the OP would rather fight than switch.

I will have to side with Wilco on this one. I don't mean any disrespect and I don't think Wilco did either. And I would be pleased if all people that cast and shoot boolits had nothing but success.

Life is good

[cavalrymedic]

I consulted the Lee book, 2nd edition. According to Mr Lee, BHN of 14.3 should not exceed 18,367 PSI. According to the load data, a 175 gr lead bullet loaded with 13.6 gr of Accur #9 must be able to handle 34,900 psi. Assuming Mr Lee's theory on the relationship of lead hardness to max PSI is correct, then you are far exceeding the max psi for your rounds. you can do two things, as I see it:

1) reduce your charge substantially. I don't like this option. Your shooting 10mm and the best thing about 10mm is the increased power.

2) heat treat, or water quench your boolits. you should heat treat the ones you have allready cast, and in the future, use a good water quenching technique when you cast. The methods for those can be found on this forum, and in Lyman's excellent handbook. You can achieve BHNs of 33 and up using these mthods which will allow max psi of 42,256 and up. That is sufficient for any 10mm loading listed by Lee. When you exceed the max psi, the lead deforms and your barrel leads up.

BTW, I got into casting in order to save money too, like many did. What happened is that I discovered that it's the best part of reloading. It's just awesome fun and satisfying.

[Shooter6br]

Check out Glen Flywell articles .Lots of good info.

[Bret4207]

I consulted the Lee book, 2nd edition. According to Mr Lee, BHN of 14.3 should not exceed 18,367 PSI. According to the load data, a 175 gr lead bullet loaded with 13.6 gr of Accur #9 must be able to handle 34,900 psi. Assuming Mr Lee's theory on the relationship of lead hardness to max PSI is correct, then you are far exceeding the max psi for your rounds. you can do two things, as I see it:

1) reduce your charge substantially. I don't like this option. Your shooting 10mm and the best thing about 10mm is the increased power.

2) heat treat, or water quench your boolits. you should heat treat the ones you have allready cast, and in the future, use a good water quenching technique when you cast. The methods for those can be found on this forum, and in Lyman's excellent handbook. You can achieve BHNs of 33 and up using these mthods which will allow max psi of 42,256 and up. That is sufficient for any 10mm loading listed by Lee. When you exceed the max psi, the lead deforms and your barrel leads up.

BTW, I got into casting in order to save money too, like many did. What happened is that I discovered that it's the best part of reloading. It's just awesome fun and satisfying.

You know what they say about assuming. I've never been a big fan of that theory. I think it's far more complex that that and that there is a lot of "nuance", to use the popular word, that's not considered in his theory. I am a big believer in Lee equipment, but I've found some of his thoughts and theories to be limited. BHN ALONE WILL NOT STOP LEADING!!! Get beyond that simple FACT and you're a step ahead.

[btroj]

The bhn theory talks of the pressure the bullet can handle. Wonderful. Now go shoot hard commercial cast .356 diameter bullets in a 357 using light 38 loads. The bullet can handle the pressure, but accuracy goes south due to the leading. I could mine the barrel. Trust me, I know, been there, done that.
Why is this? It is not the pressure, but bullet fit. Is fit everything? No, hardness van be a factor too. But this shows that hardness alone will not overcome poor fit.
Pressure, hardness, lube, fit, bullet design, and much more are all factors in successful loads. They each need to be balanced for the needs of your gun and load. The ONLY way to know what your gun will like is to listen to the gun. It will tell you when it is unhappy or if it is happy. No formula, no math, no theories, just that facts on target. Go shoot, try different loads, experiment. As others have said here many times, ask Professor Gun. He knows, nobody else does.

Brad

[mike in co]

yes ...we think we finally got thru to him....he was all wound up on one or two points and not looking at the big picture of making boolits work without leading....

honestly, if you two look you will see the last active post was THREE weeks ago.

mike in co

[mpmarty]

Chute I've got not one but five 10mm pistols I load cast in using the same AA-9 that you are using. I cast with a six cavity LEE mold 170gr truncated cone and lube with LLA/JPW fifty fifty mix and get no leading. You aren't by chance using a LEE factory crimp die are you? If so stop it and get a die that doesn't post size the cartridge making the bullet too small.

[btroj]

Yes Mike, but we were responding to cavalrymedic. Was there any harm in us replying to him?
I also noted that a moderator had reopened the thread. That tells me it must have been locked at some point, therefore no new posts were made in that time.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

One thing was kinda mentioned . . . was

[chutestrate]

I certainly don't mind people asking other questions in my thread. It all seems to be related. I haven't been back in a while. I've been gotten through too somewhat. The advice of completely ignoring bhn doesn't make sense. I recognized some names from earlier posts talking about trying to achieve a certain bhn so I think that it does bear some validation. Fit does make sense now as being more important so that a good seal is achieved. My barrel dimensions are .451 and my slugs are measuring .452 so I need to load and test.

[chutestrate]

Chute I've got not one but five 10mm pistols I load cast in using the same AA-9 that you are using. I cast with a six cavity LEE mold 170gr truncated cone and lube with LLA/JPW fifty fifty mix and get no leading. You aren't by chance using a LEE factory crimp die are you? If so stop it and get a die that doesn't post size the cartridge making the bullet too small.

I am using a lee crimp die. I am using dillon dies so i will take that out of my loading set up, and see what happens. Thanks for the advice.

[mike in co]

I certainly don't mind people asking other questions in my thread. It all seems to be related. I haven't been back in a while. I've been gotten through too somewhat. The advice of completely ignoring bhn doesn't make sense. I recognized some names from earlier posts talking about trying to achieve a certain bhn so I think that it does bear some validation. Fit does make sense now as being more important so that a good seal is achieved. My barrel dimensions are .451 and my slugs are measuring .452 so I need to load and test.

chute....
i'd guess most guys do not have hardness testers.
i'd guess more have thermometers..........
only a couple have pressure testers........
and a bunch have chrongraphs.......


but almost all of us can make boolits .
lube/size them
load them
and end up with little to no leading.
i do not know my alloy(ww with a little tin..for all but my 45.)
i do not know my hardness( i water drop almost every thing)
i do not know the pressure i shoot.( but i do have quickload software and can guess close)
i do know the velocity i get.( i have an oehler 35p chrono)
i do know the temp i cast at.( good thremometers)
i do know my loads dont lead...
ohhh and my pistol stuff is accurate.
my rifle stuff won at one of out cast boolit matches.

so i don't KNOW the pressure nor the alloy, but by sizing to the gun and then working up a load...i don'd get leading........
average cast boolit casting and shooting aint rocket science.....( and i come from that field)

mike in co

[peerlesscowboy]

Mike, have you tried seating the GC's better and working on the base for better squareness? I had to do that with one design that had a habit of inconsistent GC seating. A little shaving and a FN punch on the base before sizing helped me.
Lyman makes a "gas check seater", fits their 450 sizer/luber and/or the RCBS lubamatic. Don't you guys use it?

[peerlesscowboy]

:veryconfu

:mrgreen:

[btroj]

That Mike, is my style of shooting. Cast em,lune and size em, load em, and go shoot.
I don't often get leading. I get accuracy that meets all my needs.
I own a chronograph. No lead thermometer, no hardness tester. My alloys are mixed in the pot as I go. Some are harder, some are softer.
I keep it simple as I can. I like to shoot, not spend hours doing math to see what my bullet is supposed to be able to do.

My load development is done at the bench and the range. Not at a computer or with a calculator.

Don't worry about what is supposed to work. Go find out what does work. It will likely be different for you and your needs than it is for me and mine. That is the only thing that matters, what YOUR gun likes.

Brad

[Bret4207]

I certainly don't mind people asking other questions in my thread. It all seems to be related. I haven't been back in a while. I've been gotten through too somewhat. The advice of completely ignoring bhn doesn't make sense. I recognized some names from earlier posts talking about trying to achieve a certain bhn so I think that it does bear some validation. Fit does make sense now as being more important so that a good seal is achieved. My barrel dimensions are .451 and my slugs are measuring .452 so I need to load and test.

Friend, I mean no offense. You are simply stuck on Bhn. Until you get beyond that and realize it's not the answer you seek, you're going to remain stuck there. Bhn is like #5 on the list of what makes stuff work with cast.

Best of luck.

[462]

I used to be a member of another gun forum, but left because of a certain moderator's ultra-massive ego. Anyway, he and his worshipers were all hung up on BHN, and arriving at the proper number by dividing CUP/PSI by 1400/1440.

I tried it, a few times, and found it to be utterly useless and a complete waste of time. One example is my Blackhawk's favorite .357 Magnum load -- Lee 358-158 RF and some W296 for around 1400 fps. The formula says the boolit should have a BHN in the range of 24 or 25. The boolit I use is cast of 50/50 wheel weights/lead, and is at least half the BHN of the formula.

When it comes to casting and shooting boolits, there are too many variables involved to become consummed by any one of them.

[cavalrymedic]

ooops. I may have come across as if I had the only answer. Sorry, I am after all, I newbie to both the thread and to casting. I agree completly that a poor fitting boolit is also key, as well as lube, etc. I only meant to point out that he was loading pretty hot for lead that may be too soft.