1885 High Wall-.45/70 ?s

[Captain*Kirk]

OK, here I go.....
I have a late-nineties Browning 1885 High Wall in .45/70. I've shot nothing but handloads and factory .405gr loads in this rifle, with powders ranging from IMR4320 to H4895. Lately I've been getting curious, though...how would it work with real black and .405gr cast boolits? Would I cause corrosion problems by shooting the real McCoy? Would I need a tactical team to clean it afterwards? The falling block itself appears fairly simple, but the innards look fairly complicated, and full of tiny little places for powder fouling to hide. I've never taken the action apart on this one, and it is one beautiful rifle, so I don't want to mess it up. Were these modern repros even designed with black in mind, or strictly for modern powders?
http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy140/Buellosaurusrex/Smokepoles/AAAAHighWall1.jpg
I would value your opinions greatly. I love BP but don't want to muck up a beautiful gun.

[littlejack]

Captain:
I have a beautiful (to me) 45-70 Uberti Hiwall. As with you, I was concerned with the myths and horror stories of the black powder. Not so at all.
All one has to do is to swab the bore a couple of times with soapy water, and then dry with a couple of patches, then oil. There will be no problems at all.
I used to hold my muzzel down into a container of hot soapy water and run a brass brush with a patch back and forth in the bore. Each down stroke, would push out the fouling and refill the brush with more hot water. Then I would run a couple of dry patches through the bore, and oil. I would wipe down the outer with an oily rag and DONE.
Now, I wipe with a couple of soluble oil soaked patches then the dry and oil routine.
Just remember to dry and oil.
I can clean my black powder Hiwall, quicker than I clean any of my hipower rifles.
I think all of the other bp shooters will agree. Don't be afraid of the bp.
Jack

[bigted]

you voiced my fear exactly...that is till i took the donkey by the tail and just tryed it. first off you have to wonder if these rifles get so "mucked up" then how the dickens did the origanals survive till now and exact such a hefty price for them ?

couple things first... 1--the load must be loaded heavy enough to swell the cartridge mouth to the chamber so nothing gets back in the action...this requires that you compress the black powder in the case before you load the boolit. i use 70gr of 2f geox behind a 400 or 500gr boolits and use an old case bell die to compress the powder to the depth of where i need the boolit to seat to 2--[DONT USE THE BOOLIT TO COMPRESS THE POWDER] it will deform and expand the boolit to the point that it wont even chamber in your rifle. 3-- next find and use a blackpowder lube to fill those lube rings on the boolit...use plenty and dont worry bout the mess except on the boolit base...when they load into the case the extra will be "scraped off" by the case.

shoot and have a ball with the sparks and cloud of smoke. i use a patch with bore butter to push out the first gunk then a couple clean dry ones...then another borebutter soaked patch followed by 2 dry clean patchs...presto....CLEAN. as for the action ... dont pull the gunk back into the action and it will remain clean and safe. i spray rem oil into the action before i put it away then wipe the leftover off as i carress the gun before i put her away which is an act of love anyway and id do this anyway....

notice i didnt mention water once here? i dont need it and the bore is shiney and clean but the diameter of your bore needs to be determined first so you shoot the correct size boolits that will do their part to not lead your bore.

lots of stuff to "learn" as for accuracy but here and on the next page of this site will answer ALL your questions. have fun and keep reporting your fun AND exasperations so others that have been down this very road can help with figuring out whats going wrong and also whats going rite.

other then that all i say is do it...do it...do it! the fun is addictive so lead on with caution...lol

[NickSS]

I have been shooting BP in cartridge rifles for over 20 years and what I have found it that they are easier to clean than the same rifle shot with smokeless powder. Today I went to a club match and fired 50 rounds through My Pedersoli Sharps rifle without cleaning it until I got home. I did use a blow tube between shots. When I got home I pushed three patches saturated with a mixture of Balistol and water (50-50 mix) Through the bore. I followed it with one dry patch then ran a patch with Kroil on it through followed by another dry patch to take out excess oil. I was all done in less than five minutes and the bore looks like a mirror. This is typical BP cleanup for me and I have some really expensive Shiloh Sharps, C, Sharps rifles as well as an original Rolling Block rifle and cleanup is the same in all of them.

[montana_charlie]

you have to wonder if these rifles get so "mucked up" then how the dickens did the origanals survive till now and exact such a hefty price for them ?

i use a patch with bore butter to push out the first gunk then a couple clean dry ones...then another borebutter soaked patch followed by 2 dry clean patchs...presto....CLEAN.

notice i didnt mention water once here? i dont need it and the bore is shiney and clean
You see originals in great condition because they were cared for by men who knew how to treat a black powder rifle.

Those men used WATER to clean the bore...because they knew that WATER dissolves the flouling.
A little soap makes that more efficient, but isn't necessary.

Bore Butter is a bore conditioner meant to reduce fouling during firing. It's not a cleaner...not a solvent...not WATER.
Thompson Center's FAQ says this about how to use it...

7: How do I use Natural Lube 1000 Plus Bore Butter?
It's easy. The first step is to remove all traces of oil from your muzzleloader by cleaning the bore with hot water and a detergent. Then coat the bore with Bore Butter using a patch or swab saturated with it.

CM

[bigted]

thanks charlie,,, my barrel is not lieing to me and it stays clean and bright but your rite in that the origanal use for bore butter is as stated. i choose NOT to use water in mine and as long as i do NOT develope rust or fouling growing in my barrel then i think ill continue to use what works for me. i dont have a heartburn with people using water to bath their barrels with but i simply choose NOT to use water in mine. thankyou for your concern for my method of cleaning and keeping my guns in great shape tho. i take everything i read here and mull it over so i apreciate your coments.

[67bear]

I believe your rifle was made to shoot black powder. I've got one of the 1885 Browning BPCR's in 40-65 that has fired over 9000 black powder rounds. I never tried any smokeless in it. It still shoots very well. Just clean it when you're done. I've never taken the action apart on mine. I just spray it out with Gibbs. It takes a little work, but you'll probably like shooting the real thing better than smokeless.

[texasmac]

Captain*Kirk,

Your Browning looks like a standard High Wall and, as such, it will handle black powder with no problem as long as you clean it properly. Due to the rifling twist rate (slower than the BPCR model), it was not specifically designed for the heavy cast 500+ grain bullets typically shot in black powder .45-70's. But, with that said, it should be reasonably accurate. I would start with cast bullets in the 400 to 405 gr. range

I believe the twist rate of your rifle is 1:20 or possibly 1:22. The BPCR .45-70 model has a faster twist rate of 1:18 making it better for the longer/heavier bullets. Also, the barrel on your rifle was made by Miroku and is not the custom barrels made by Badger for black powder cast bullet shooting, which is used on all the BPCR models.

Don't let my comments keep you from trying BP in it. It certainly will not harm the rifle and will add another dimension to your shooting. Just make sure you completely fill the cartridge with BP, leaving no air between the powder and bullet, and wad if you use one.

Wayne

[Captain*Kirk]

Well, boys, you certainly have me curious now.
I had previously decided this would be a smokeless-only rifle (a tack-driver, even with open sights!) and that I would leave the black for my muzzle loader and C&B pistols.
I'm really starting to have second thoughts!
Right now I'm shooting jacketed .405gr FN bullets launching at around 1330fps. I've loaded handloads much more stout, but accuracy suffers in addition to my shoulder.
Here are some general questions:
-WRT to the boolit: I see Lyman makes a .405 gr FN. Assuming a 1:20 twist, would this be a good choice?
-WRT the powder...2F or 3F? Are substitutes available? I know Pyrodex used to come in a "CTG" designation, but I believe that's long gone.
-What sort of alloy would I want the boolits to be cast from? I only cast pure lead now for my BP guns and don't know much about alloys, linotype, etc.
-What sort of MV are we looking at? Close to the 1330 I'm used to? With this load, I assume I'll need a filler...will COW or cornmeal work?
-Do I continue to use my Lee FC die?
-Can I use the same primers (WLR?)
I've got C.O.L. figured out in this gun for smokeless. I'll assume I could keep this the same unless otherwise informed. I've never heard of using wads before...can these be substituted for filler, or used over filler, if space allows?
I guess that's enough boring questions for one night. Thanks for your responses!

[67bear]

I'd check and see what the rate of twist is before I chose the boolit.

For powder, I would recommend 1.5F or 2F Swiss BP

I use 20-1 alloy (lead/tin), but have used and know others that use 25-1 and 30-1

It'll probably be a little slower than 1330 fps. I'm not real sure though. I shoot a 535 grain boolit in my 45-70

Don't use any filler. Just fill the case with BP enough so that you do not have any airspace between the boolit and the powder. It is common with BP cartridge loads to set the OAL so that the boolit touches the rifling. Once you know the OAL you want to use, set your powder height so that you can seat the boolit and an over powder wad with at least "some" compression of the powder. With different guns and loads I've used between .005" - .300" compression, but don't compress the powder with the boolit. A compression die is used for this. You can get a compression plug from Buffalo Arms to fit your expander die. Fill the case with the appropriate amount of powder, place a wad on it, and compress with the compression die. Then seat the boolit.

Try it with and without crimp. I have found mine shoots better without.

WLR primers are fine. I've used them with some loads, but mostly use federal 215's now.

You can purchase or make wads. Vegetable fiber, LDPE, and card wads are available several places like buffaloarms.com

Hope this helps a little

[hydraulic]

Don't forget to wash the empty cases with water and a borebrush.

[bigted]

sounds like a bunch of hassle huh...well dont go down this road unless your ready for another addiction...lol

seriously if you compress 65 to 70gr of 2f reeel black powder and leave the shamefull wanna-b's on the store shelf...load a 400 style cast boolit of .459 cal and use a GOOD blackpowder lube to fill those valleys on the boolit...let fly...im bettin your pulse rate will quicken and the sensible part of your brain will leave you. ive tryed to shuck this bp addiction as being too much hassle and too messy and too smelly but ya know...i keep coming back to try it again and again. oh and i have your exact rifle and these hiwalls LOVE blackpowder.

having said this a word of caution here...seriously sir...if you have used the jacketed missles you should really get a copper remover and work over your barrel BEFORE you use these cast boolits with any kind of powder. the small tiny itsy bitsy pieces of copper will attrect that lead like a fury and then the job just gets tedious. shooting black or smokless will net the same in regard to ANY copper on or in the barrel so i recomend you remove ALL traces of copper first so as to give yourself the most fun experience available with yore clothes on. otherwise you will be scrubbing and scrubbing your barrel like i have been with my marlin that i neglected to remove the nasty copper out of before i started with the wheel weight cast boolits.

all in all have fun with your hiwall and if you happen to smoke the barrel with the origanal "powder" i think your life will turn on itself like mine did and " thats all i gotta say bout that"

[Captain*Kirk]

Don't forget to wash the empty cases with water and a borebrush.

I use a tumbler with brass polish presently. Is this an additional step I'll need to do as well?

[Captain*Kirk]

sounds like a bunch of hassle huh...well dont go down this road unless your ready for another addiction...lol

seriously if you compress 65 to 70gr of 2f reeel black powder and leave the shamefull wanna-b's on the store shelf...load a 400 style cast boolit of .459 cal and use a GOOD blackpowder lube to fill those valleys on the boolit...let fly...im bettin your pulse rate will quicken and the sensible part of your brain will leave you. ive tryed to shuck this bp addiction as being too much hassle and too messy and too smelly but ya know...i keep coming back to try it again and again. oh and i have your exact rifle and these hiwalls LOVE blackpowder.

having said this a word of caution here...seriously sir...if you have used the jacketed missles you should really get a copper remover and work over your barrel BEFORE you use these cast boolits with any kind of powder. the small tiny itsy bitsy pieces of copper will attrect that lead like a fury and then the job just gets tedious. shooting black or smokless will net the same in regard to ANY copper on or in the barrel so i recomend you remove ALL traces of copper first so as to give yourself the most fun experience available with yore clothes on. otherwise you will be scrubbing and scrubbing your barrel like i have been with my marlin that i neglected to remove the nasty copper out of before i started with the wheel weight cast boolits.

all in all have fun with your hiwall and if you happen to smoke the barrel with the origanal "powder" i think your life will turn on itself like mine did and " thats all i gotta say bout that"

Ted, if I was worried about the hassle & mess I wouldn't shoot BP revolvers in the first place!:wink:
I have Hoppes Copper Fouling remover and will work over the barrel before I start loading for BP.
BTW...I have at least three boxes of smokeless cartridges loaded, and a couple hundred jacketed bullets left to load. Any problem with "mixing it up" as long as the copper fouling is removed between sessions, or should I use up all the copper-clad/smokeless stuff first?

[montana_charlie]

I use a tumbler with brass polish presently. Is this an additional step I'll need to do as well?
We generally have a jug of water with a dash of Dawn at the range. Fired cases are dropped in that to soak until back at home. I like to deprime before the soaking.

At home, you can wash cases by hand, run them in an ultrasonic cleaner, or tumble them in ceramic media with a liquid cleaning solution.

Having cases that are pretty on the outside is gratifying. Having them clean on the inside contributes to accuracy.

CM

[bigted]

naaaaa i and others also shoot j words and cast as well but i just make sure to clean clean clean now as this marlin tought me that brass/lead dont mix well er maybe they do and thats why its such a hassle to clean it all when mixed.

the brass/copper leftovers are and have always been harder to clean then any cast boolits i fire after i learned the hard lesson to always make sure to size the boolit to the bore its gonna be shot in. always go .001 larger then the bore and the lead deposites are gonna be almost nonexistant. i have guns that i just never put the j-words in...ever. my win 85 hiwall and pedrosoli 74 sharps are two rite off the top. just me as i have levers and such that i shoot jacketed in and hardly ever use cast in...when i do i have the chore of cleaning ALL the copper/brass out of the bore before i shoot em so the hassle isnt worth it. every gun has its purpose and i ussually tend to lean to the cast guns for my pleassure and find that im using them more then the others all the time. i even have the heavy boolits that work in my jacketed only guns so looks like the cast stuff are gradually taking over my arsenal. another alarming thing that makes me catch my breath is how often i think and plan another experiment that includes black powder...i see a strange trend coming over me here.....hmmmmmmm

[wills]

I use a tumbler with brass polish presently. Is this an additional step I'll need to do as well?

Take your brass out of the jug, clean it with a nylon bore brush chucked in an electric drill. Rinse the brass, put it wet in a vibratory tumbler with walnut media, leave the lid off, and run the tumbler (someplace you do not mind getting dusty) till the brass is dry and shiny

[bigted]

which brings up a small question i run into all the time...that is the media gets stuck in the primer hole of almost every case. guess im sniveling but is there something i could use that wont do this when tumbling?

[excess650]

I shot BPCR Silhouette for many years and cleaned with Hoppes #9. Its true! Hoppes does a good job of cleaning BP residue if you don't want to introduce water into your action. Its a good idea to run another Hoppes patch through in a day or two as it seems to leach more from the pores. Hot soapy water is the best, and the way I learned to clean my MLers.

As for the Browning Hiwalls, I hear they're quite a PITA to reassamble as were the coil spring Winchesters. The earlier flat spring actions were simpler.

As for cleaning cases, they do need to be treated differently than if using smokeless. You can decap and use soapy water, or white vinegar.....don't do this inside![smilie=1: I generally used a wet tumbler with ceramic media to clean them and then a vibratory tumbler with dry, untreated corncob to dry them.

[Four Fingers of Death]

On all of my black powder guns (I also have a BPCR 45/70 as well as a lot of cowboy guns and a tarpdoor), I use moose milk. That is Ballistol oil and water mixed 10-1. You can argue that water is not necessary, but theres no getting around the fact that shooting bp means a lot of salts are left lying about. Water is pretty much the only thing I have ever seen that is guarenteed to shift or neutralise these. I don't worry about getting the moose milk (also to only be used outside, smells like essence of stink bug) in the action, it is a diluted oil, I just flush it sfterwards with action blaster and follow up with oil. I clean my levers and single shots upside down so that spillage falls out rather than going into the action.

[doubs43]

which brings up a small question i run into all the time...that is the media gets stuck in the primer hole of almost every case. guess im sniveling but is there something i could use that wont do this when tumbling?

Ted, my solution applies to cases in general. If too dirty to immediately resize/de-cap, I tumble them in corncob media until clean. Then I lube and size them which, of course, removes the old primer. Then I bell the mouth to accept a new bullet and toss them back into the media for further cleaning to remove the sizing lube residue.

Once clean, I dump the media from each case in groups of 4 until all are empty. Then I take them to my bench and hold 4 cases at a time up to look through the primer pocket hole at a white paper towel. If I see media in the primer hole I use a pick to force it through or pick it out. It takes but a few minutes to go through 50 - 100 cases.

[45r]

The balistol should work well and Texas mac's book would be good if you ever take that beautiful rifle apart.I've got a Win sporter and will be watching to see how it goes for you.I use 5744 with my 405 grain boolits and sometimes 4759 with a dacron wad.It's shoots very well.I got a little burnt powder in the action once and the trigger wouldn't cock but was fixed easy by shaking the rifle a little.I think that if you can take the stock off and degrease and blow it out you wouldn't have to take it apart,If you did TM's book would show you how to do it.I hear it takes about 20 minutes and somebody has a kit that helps.I've never taken mine apart,I'd like to because I really like the rifle and like to keep it clean.