Why 38 Special +P?

[Daryl]

Hi,

Just trying to figure this out for myself.

I've been considering working up maximum loads for the 38 Special. Mostly now just working from the published data.

I will be using a 160 Grain RFN LBT mold.

After reviewing the data, I don't find and advantage to the +P unless, perhaps, you exceed published data on your own.

For example, Lee publishes max load for 38 SP with 6.3 of HS6 @ 1,010 FPS. That exceeds any loads published for +P. So, is the advantage just for instances where someone only wants to use a higher load of a particular powder rather than, say, picking a powder that delivers higher velocity in the 38 SP.

Or, are there cases where the higher pressure provides additional benefits in accuracy, reduced leading, or some other factor?

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Personally I think +P is simply a marketing tool used buy ammo manufacturers. Almost every handgun caliber out there I have seen advertised in a “+P” load of some sort.

Rarely have I ever experienced greater accuracy with faster loads, especially when it comes to cast boolits.

Stick with modern recent load data and you will be fine. The paper/varmint/bad guy, are not going to notice the difference between a well placed 38 vs. a 38+P.

[Bret4207]

I'm not sure this is an answer to your question, but +P is a marketing tool indicating something hotter than "normal". We used to load 38's to 357 level in the larger framed guns back when 357 brass wasn't common. The old "Skeeter Load" was that type of loading. It would be a +P+ today I suppose. The old 38-44 loadings were similar. You can take the 38 Special into 357 mag pressures and velocity, you just have to realize what you are doing and what's involved and use the appropriate caution and correct guns. That little bit of extra case on a 357 isn't what makes it a magnum, it's the powder charge inside it.

[ironhead7544]

+P in the 38 Special indicates a slightly faster, higher pressure load. At one time it was found to be necessary to pick up the speed of 38 Special ammo in order to get a hollow point to expand. The makers gave it a different marking meaning to be used in newer revolvers that could handle the pressure. There are many old guns in 38 Special that probably shouldnt be fired at all. There is not much difference between the two loads. The 158 gr standard load goes about 700 fps in a 4 inch and the +P goes about 800 fps. YMMV.
One of the advantages of handloading is that sometimes you can get a faster load with factory pressures. Some powders will give +P pressures with lower velocities.
Unique powder with your 160 gr RNFP will make a great load for the 38 Special.

[Tim357]

I believe the "+P" designation is an actual SAAMI term, and only applies to the .38 Special. I do not believe any SAAMI +P data exists for any other cartridge, regardless of what the loadbooks say. I could be wrong, but I've never seen SAMMI pressure data for any other ctg than the .38

[Cowboy T]

Yes, .38 Special +P is a SAAMI spec. The max pressure for standard .38 Spl is 17,000 PSI, and for .38 Spl +P, it's 18,500 PSI. This is per the ANSI/SAAMI 1993 publication.

Now, my .38 Spl "hotter" load is quite a bit hotter than SAAMI-spec .38 +P. I estimate my 150gr LRNFP load in about the 27,000 PSI range. It chronos at roughly 1,150 fps and is very manageable.

Basically, you've just got to experiment and see what gives you the best performance based on what you're looking for.

[cajun shooter]

Back in the sixties and early 70's if you went to buy a box of 38's you were handed one of two rounds. They were the 158 gr lead round nose or the 200 gr. lead rn. It was thought at the time that the 200 gr was a good man stopper. Lee Juras came along and changed history for the better. He is by far not the only one but was the first to produce ultra high speed ammo. Myself and a few friends did some test at that time. The 200 gr would not even go through the side door vent window which all cars had at the time. You younger members will have to see pictures. The ammo by Juras set things to moving and the big boys like Winchester, Remington, Peters had to follow suit to stay up. Some of these loads were found to be very good and others not so. I have long forgotten who did the testing but some of the hyper loads would not do damage to a person who was clothed with many layers as they broke up quickly before doing damage. Others were so powerful like the Winchester 158 gr metal piercing 357 mag that it would disable engine blocks. I worked in a gun store that was a jobber for Lee Juras and had all of these at hand to shoot and test. The one thing that I learned very early on was that the fastest was not always the best. A hit with a 38 will do better than a miss with a 44 mag. There was a national test done by IIRC two doctors on gun shot wounds and they printed the results more than once. It's been too many years to give that info correctly. A long story of how it all started.

[Eutectic]

I thought I saw 9mm loads a while back in +P? Some were even +P+ if memory serves me...

[Rocky Raab]

At least some of the reason for +P loads (the 257 Roberts also has it as a SAAMI spec) is the US national credo that more is automatically better.

That may or may not be true, but one at least has to ask how much more is how much better? The measly 1,500 psi (or CUP) difference between standard 38 Specials and +P versions isn't much of a boost, and the resultant velocity gain isn't, either. The tiny gain might have been significant at one time, but better bullet designs give more benefit today than the boosted pressures.

[2wheelDuke]

I thought I saw 9mm loads a while back in +P? Some were even +P+ if memory serves me...

9mm +p is a SAAMI spec as well if I'm not mistaken. 9mm +p is very common in defense loads.

My understanding is that 9mm +p+ is not a SAAMI spec, and is intended for submachine guns.

[foxtrotter]

I believe the "+P" designation is an actual SAAMI term, and only applies to the .38 Special. I do not believe any SAAMI +P data exists for any other cartridge, regardless of what the loadbooks say. I could be wrong, but I've never seen SAMMI pressure data for any other ctg than the .38

38 super, 9mm luger, 45 ACP all have SAMMI +p specs.

[220swiftfn]

+P doesn't always mean higher velocity either..... I don't have it right in front of me, but Speer gold dot 9mm +p 124gr. can be beat velocity-wise by a handloader at normal pressures (They have it right in their loading book, folks.) Made me look twice the first time I saw it....


Dan

[ReloaderFred]

The +P designation came about in the early to mid 1970's, when .38 revolvers were carried by about 95% of American Law Enforcement Agencies. Most of those agencies wouldn't allow carrying .357 Magnum ammunition, mostly for reasons of "perception" by the public. As noted, Lee Juras started it all with Super Vel. He was using Sierra 110 gr. JHP bullets at first, and loading them hot.

Speer was one of the first to adopt a similar loading in their Lawman line of ammunition, but used 125 gr. JSP bullets. Many departments wouldn't allow the use of hollowpoint ammunition, again because of "perception". The department I worked for, which was approximately 600 sworn officers, didn't really care too much about "perception" with regards the hollowpoint bullets, but County Counsel wouldn't allow the Sheriff to allow .357 Magnum ammunition. (Yeah, I know all about the arguments, but lawyers have the final say).

I was rangemaster when we ordered our first hollowpoint +P ammunition. There was enough difference in the new loading that it made the change a worthwhile one. When Winchester came out with their excellent Silvertip ammunition, I ordered that for duty use. It was an excellent bullet and in every shooting, it performed as advertized.

It's not really fair to judge +P ammunition by today's standards, since there are so many new components with which to work with. You have to view it in the time frame it was developed in, and the political climate at the time. I for one was glad to see the +P line of .38 ammunition made available to us. I was even happier when we got a Sheriff who was a gun person and let us carry our own handguns, in any caliber from .38/9mm to .45. I immediately started carrying my S&W Model 57 in .41 Magnum. I carried it for about 15 years, before they adopted a plastic gun in a lesser caliber about a year and a half before I retired.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

Reloader Fred is exactly right. My first issue handgun was a 6" Model 10 S&W. We were required to carry the absolutely awful 158 grain lead roundnose bullet and to make it worse we could only have 18 rounds on us at any given time. Shame on you if you had more during a surprise inspection. Some yrs later we were issued Model 13 357 magnums but were required to carry the same ammo. Politics and public perception.... whew! Somwhere around the early 80's the FBI did a study after several of their agents were killed in a gun battle and someone finally sat up and took notice of what everybody had been telling them for yrs. The crappy ammo had trouble putting an injured animal out of it's misery let alone using it for self defense. Their answer was to issue 125 gr +P jacketed soft point ammo. Believe me that was not an improvement due to the bullet technology of the time. Shortly after that debacle the issue ammo was changed to 110 grain jacketed hollowpoint +P+, available only to Law Enforcement agencies made by Winchester, again per FBI recomendations. I have no idea what the pressure was for a +P+. But I can tell you that in a Model 13 357 that had been factory regulated for heavy bullet 357 Magnum ammo this stuff was a true nightmare. At 25 yds most of our weapons printed at least 12 inches low with some more than that. Windage was also affected by several inches at that range. So to hit center mass you had to aim head high and outside the ear on the old B-21 targets. We were absolutely forbidden to alter the fixed sights in any way and had frequent inspections to verify no alterations had been made. Some of us were able to correct the windage by placing the weapon in a vice and "bend " the barrel with a big brass hammer enough to get them shooting relatively straight but there was no hammer big enough to bend them to correct the elevation issues. As far as I know no inspection ever detected the windage correction technique and anyone found having "filed" the front sight was punished immediately. It was in 1988 that we were finally issued Glock 17's that had drift adjustable sights and were regulated for the ammo we were issued. Which was the anemic 147gr jacketed Hollowpoint. It was very accurate but lacked any stopping power as was quickly demonstrated on several occasions. The largest improvement was the night sights that came on the 17's as multiple hits were better than multiple misses that had been the norm. It was also at that time we finally were able to carry almost 50 rounds on our person as compared to the previous 18 rounds maximum. It was also only after the Hollywood shootout that we were issued either patrol rifles or shotguns, depending on rank, in our vehicles. Sgt's and above had rifles and everyone else had shotguns. I've been retired for six yrs and now everyone has AR-15's and shotguns as well as Glock 40's and are not limited to the amount of ammo in the vehicle. In my last five yrs there were more shootings necessary than than the previous 25ys combined. In my whole 30 yr career I was only directly involved in three and two of them were in the last five yrs. I know this has gotten a wee bit off the +P theme but my point is Law Enforcement and the public in general has never had it any better than now with regardless of what the headstamp on the round may say. Fact is, with the great bullets available now the new +P stuff is probably better than anything that would/could have been available to us at the time.Thanks for letting me ramble.......... Mike

[NHlever]

Usually, higher pressure equals higher velocities with the same bullet. In some cases one gun will shoot a load faster than another, or you will read loads that were tested in unvented presssure barrels which also produce higher velocities. That is what I suspect you found when you were comparing the HS-6 load with the +P loads. In the same gun using all components the same, +P loads will generally produce higher velocities, and that is the reason for them.

[dualsport]

The '+P' designation would be handy still even if only by telling you which ammo/loads to avoid when shooting older or weaker guns. My Charter Arms Undercover probably wouldn't last long if I used the +P.

[robertbank]

Until IDPA reduced the power factor for SSR Division I was loading 3.5 gr of Clays to get my 160 gr LRN boolits up to 130 PF. There were no signs of pressure via the primer and the Ruger GP-100 handled them just fine. This loading is over manual specs for the 38spl and I am guessing would be considered +P.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

Lotta good and historically-correct stuff posted above. Chairman Mao said more than he knew when he asserted that "Politics comes from the barrel of a gun".

The 38 Special is just a great caliber. Some of its early bullet designs left a lot to be desired, but with good bullets in stronger platforms it is a viable defensive tool and superb field/hunting platform.

I use both Lymans #358477 and #358429 to good effect in my 38 Specials. I reserve the Colt OMT to standard pressures, though I imagine +P wouldn't hurt it. These loads run the "477" at 925-950 FPS, and the heavier "429" to 850 FPS or so. Accuracy is GREAT, and both loads tip over jackrabbits with certainty. Marie and I both can shoot these all day without fatigue.

A few years ago I purchased a S&W Model 10 x 5" from a member here, and it is a delight. Its trigger in both modes is SUPERB, and it is new enough to take on +P loads without trouble. I don't run Keith-like 38-44 pressures, in it, but will push #358429 just past 1000 FPS with Blue Dot and Herco. These are NOT published charge weights, and will remain so. The loads are accurate as can be, and hit with authority.

[GLL]

“Why 38 Special +P?”

Here are a couple reasons ! :) :)

Jerry

‘Transitional” .38/44 Outdoorsman
http://www.fototime.com/7D3DFB5CF113CC3/orig.jpg

[KYCaster]

“Why 38 Special +P?”

Here are a couple reasons ! :) :)

Jerry

‘Transitional” .38/44 Outdoorsman
http://www.fototime.com/7D3DFB5CF113CC3/orig.jpg




Could one of you moderators please tell Jerry to quit posting the gun porn here?

I'm developing a bad case of "pistol envy" and don't have nearly enough money to cure it.

Any relief would be greatly appreciated.

Jerry

[Tazman1602]

First off I agree with KYCaster, those pistols of Jerry's are killing me!

Second off, after 40 years of reading every gun book I could get my hands of and having *most* of the classics I can't believe I had never heard of Lee E. Jurras!!!!

For those of you who don't know who he was, here's a great article on him:

Article on Lee E. Jurras (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_187_31/ai_n27177544/?tag=content;col1)

Man I thought I knew ALL the big guns, learn something new every day!

Geez I just drooled on myself after looking at those pistols again.....

Art

[Life Member]

I carry a S&W model 10-5 and have read alot about the best load for a 38 special. Seems I keep hearing about the +p round with a 158 gr SWCHP on top. (FBI Load - -Chicago Load) If you prefer a standard pressure round the Federal Nyclad (125 gr)is the way to go. Yes a hit with anything is better than a miss with anything. No doubt about it.

[NVScouter]

I recently bought a new Taurus Ultralight CCW pistol in 38spl

So I went home and loaded what I had 158g JHPs at starting 38spl load data. They should be moving at about 650fps. I also bought a box of UMC 125g Short jacket HP +P rounds.

I took out a thick phone book at 15 yards. The 158s made it to the N section and stopped. The 125 +Ps went all the way through and into the dirt. Very noticable recoil difference.

I'm looking for a 125 mould now and after researching my pistol (its built for +P) going to move up to the starting +P data.

[EDK]

Lee Jurras and SuperVel hit the shooting/law enforcement scene like a comet in the early 70s. The major manufacturers had nothing to compare and went crazy playing catch up. Some offerings were good; others.....

The social changes...civil rights and a changing societal attitude towards any form of authority AND the anti war movement, etc....left law enforcement in a really wierd position. Politically active/ambitous administrators were scared of the public relations reaction to a LEO carrying, let alone shooting someone, with a MAGNUM! (BUT everyone went to see DIRTY HARRY and sequels.) At the same time, ex military and street people were familiar with semi and full auto firearms. Drugs were readily available and the dealers, etc were getting less reticent about defending their turf.

It was a thankless and frustrating job back then and even more so today. It really verifies the ancient chinese curse....MAY YOU LIVE IN INTERESTING TIMES.

Thanks for your service.

[excess650]

From a basic perspective, there IS a reason for +P. Think about it, the 38 Spl has been around for over 100 years and there have been tremendous gains in metallurgy in that time. A standard loading needs to be safe in a 100 year old revolver, but newer, stronger firearms can handle more pressure.

The initial "improvements" in 38 Spl ammo date back to the 38-44 Heavy duty loads of the 1930s or so. This was prior to the advent of the 357 Mag, and those loads were intended for large frame, large cylinder revolvers like the S&W 38-44 Heavy Duty and their adjustable sight siblings, the Outdoorsman.

Since that time there still have been weak, generally aluminum framed revolvers still in production, and for longevity, its wise to use the lesser pressure loads in them. There are small, 5 shot S&W J frames capable of more despite their diminutive size, and will be marked +P or even +P+ if capable of handling the pressures.

Also mentioned previously, the Federal Nyclad ammo improved performance, and not necessarily at the expense of higher pressure. Soft cores were encased with nylon jackets that allowed for more expansion at lower velocities and no leading.