WWII US military mercuric priming and older brass questions

[MakeMineA10mm]

OK, I've been going through a lot of 30-06 lately, to the point that I've got to start getting back to reloading this caliber in a serious way. :mrgreen:

I have a few hundred commercial brass, which are mostly R-P and some Win., and they are no challenge.

I also have 1000 pull-down cases I got from Jeff Bartlett a couple years ago, which I had done nothing with. They are dated "LC 5", which I believe would mean 1945, as I know the arsenals simplified the headstamps due to the demands on machines and tools (such as the stamps).

I also have some WWII 1942 M-2 Ball that is still loaded. Been considering the possibility of pulling that ammo down, killing the primer, and then de-priming to replace the primers with new non-corrosive ones.

I know the only ammo loaded during WWII with all non-mercuric primers was the 30-Carbine, so most-likely these -06 rounds have mercuric primers, which is why I was considering pulling it down and reloading with fresh primers.

I've also found about 50 pieces of the WWII ammo that had been fired with the original primers in them...

My questions are two-fold:

1) That brass which was fired with the original mercuric primers, is the brass no good? I know it's corrosive to the barrel, but did WWII US ammo also degrade the brass through chemical reaction from the corrosive priming compounds?

2) For this old brass (whether fired, pulled down, or being considered to pull down myself), other than cleaning it with citric acid, which passivates it, should I do any other processing, due to it's age, such as annealing? I thought I read somewhere, sometime that brass does age harden, so that is the reason for this question...

[spqrzilla]

No US ammunition during WWII used mercuric priming. That was long obsolete decades before. And the reason that mercuric priming was abandoned was that in the age of smokeless powders, mercury attacked brass and the US Army liked to reload brass cases. (Black powder carried off the mercury in its abundant residues reducing the effect).

All WWII ammuntion except .30 Carbine was corrosive, due to the use of potassium chlorate in the priming which resulted in potassium chloride salts being deposited in bore and action.

Corrosive ammo is not really that much of a problem, the firearm is easily cleaned. Just flush the bore and action with water, and then clean normally with a petroleum distillate cleaner to displace the water. I would use the brass without any concerns myself.

I believe that "LC 5" is actually 1955 as my recollection is the practice was not to repeat digits.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks spqrzilla! You are, of course, correct about the mercuric vs. corrosive. I got the terms reversed in my head somehow... So no worries about the brass with the corrosive primers, just mercuric, which were long-since gone from military use by WWII?

Any thoughts on the annealing?

[madsenshooter]

I have some brass from that era, I think it's SL 55 or 56, that has a easily overloaded combination of a thick case and soft head. Loaded the same as an LC69, the head is soft enough to allow the primers to blow out.

[Jim]

MM,
When you pull down that old ammo, deprime the cases GENTLY! Many years ago, I got hold of a few hunnerd rounds of 40's era 1919 ammo. When I started depriming, several of the primers went off in the decapping stage because I was hitting the primers a little rough.
It ain't no fun to have one of those primers go off and ricochet out of the bottom of the press. If it doesn't hit you, it'll still scary the mess out of you.

[bob208]

with the cost of primers. i would pull the loads and use the old primers for cast loads. then clean the rifle and brass. and go on my way with the newer primers.

[Freightman]

with the cost of primers. i would pull the loads and use the old primers for cast loads. then clean the rifle and brass. and go on my way with the newer primers.
Yep!!

[gnoahhh]

The old chlorate FA-70 primers used in WWII-era government ammunition were highly thought of by reloaders in decades past for their consistency. As stated above cleanup is simple and because of that not the bugabear that urban legend makes them out to be. The biggest hassle when reloading M1 and M2 Ball, and AP ammo is in the removal of the primer crimp. Last but not least, a modern handloader would be well advised to consider the collector's value of that stuff. The train-loads of U.S. surplus ammo that existed during generations past isn't out there anymore.

[MakeMineA10mm]

OK, thanks guys. Lots of info to consider here.

First off, I've deprimed a box of these before, and with those crimped-in primers, they do take some extra effort, which, in turn, makes the primer more likely to go off... So, yes, I concur, If I go this direction, I'll be very gentle. Slow, steady pressure, not a speed thing...

On the other hand, these guys make some compelling arguments to go ahead and use these primers, possibly with cast boolit loads... I've been researching the cleaning issue and the salts developed. I'm thinking something like WD-40, which has water in it, has a reputation for killing or collecting-up the salts and flushing them out. I've tried the very hot water method with a muzzle-loader, and didn't care for it much. Maybe it's my technique, but even with the smoke-pole which is very simple and has few parts, I ended up pulling the whole thing apart to make sure I got all the water off. I started off with boiling hot water, but doing it outside, the water cooled off as I was going. I'm kind of hyper-vigilant about rust, so water makes me nervous...

The collectible aspect I hadn't thought of, but then, pulling a box of the AP ammo out of the can and looking at it, I can see where a collector would value this stuff. It's actually pretty (to a gun-guy like we are). Old label with blue and yellow stripes. It exudes history. May have to keep thinking over my options...

Might be better to trade a few boxes of this loaded stuff for a bucket of cases that I can reload and not ruin any collectibility...

[3006guns]

Hate to be the "tail end Charlie" here, but I'd USE the primers. As mentioned they were very highly thought of due to their reliablitiy and uniformity. The chlorate aspect is very minor.......so minor you can just slosh the bore, oil it and you're done.

As far as punching out the live primers, I've done it and had a few that went off despite soaking in oil and gentle pressure. On some of them the depriming pin actually poked through without removing them! So, why not just use 'em first?

I have an RCBS primer pocket swage but have found that it still leaves a bit of brass around the pocket. One of the forum members suggested using a case mouth reamer after swaging........just enough to make a small bevel. A simple twist of the wrist and the new primers go right in.

[spqrzilla]

I don't think WD 40 works all that well for cleaning corrosive priming residue. I've never heard that it contains water, and its MSDS does not list it as an ingredient. Water really is the best choice in my opinion, simply because it works.

[Maven]

MMA10MM, I'd use those primers as well and anneal those empties after the 1st firing and resizing. Here's why: ~29 yrs. ago I was given maybe 60 rounds of unfired WCC '45 [.30-06] ammo. After pulling them down and reloading for cast bullets, I began getting spit necks, usually after the 2nd firing. As this never happened with newer milsurp brass, e.g., LC '69, or Rem. or Win. brass for that matter, I decided to anneal them (i.e., the WCC '45 brass). From that point on, there were NO further split necks. In short, it's now my practice to anneal any brass that's more than 20 yrs. old.

[jmh54738]

Yep!!

Those primers are not going to be in very good shape for reuse after they have been extracted over the crimp on the primer pocket. Shoot the stuff if you desire, then you have good cases to use.

[gnoahhh]

No water in WD-40. It's name, W(ater) D(isplacing) - 40 tells the tale. (It was the 40th formula tried by the chemists who devised it, or so the story goes.) I only use it when there's absolutely nothing else available. It sucks as a lubricant, and sucks as a rust preventive. I don't even allow it in my shop because I do a lot of wood finishing and just one airborne molecule of that stuff will cause a fisheye in varnish. The best use I found for it is to flush out the nooks and crannies of a blackpowder revolver after scrubbing it with hot soap and water. Even then the WD-40 is removed as much as possible afterward and replaced with a good gun oil, and those guns too never see the inside of my shop for fear of WD-40 contamination. In addition, I've seen too many steel objects that rusted regardless of being wiped down with WD-40 to ever put any faith in it. The success of WD-40 is based solely on the excellent marketing thereof.

[atr]

just remember that when you use military brass the volume of the case is smaller than commercial brass....older loading manuals usually have a note to reduce the charge by 5% when using military brass.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks everyone!

The history-buff in me kind of peaked when I started thinking about this stuff. I think I'll hold off doing anything with my WWII ammo supply (laid up by my dad in the 1960s), due to it's good condition and historical value.

I do have 1000 cases of LC "5" (may be 55, may be 45 -- I've read both ways of interpretting it), so that should do me for awhile for my M1. I also have a couple hundred R-P commercial cases that I'm setting aside for cast loading. This should set me for awhile. I'll just have to reload them more often! :mrgreen: (Course, by half-way through the year, I may be on to something else, like the nice Krag I just got from a member here!)

[Char-Gar]

When I started reloading, I was given 5,000 of the FA chlorate primers. Prior to WWII, you could buy them from the army under certain circumstances. They are very long lived and stable primers. I used them all and wish I had more.

I used the old Military brown stinky bore cleaner to clean the barrels. This stuff was designed to clean out the salts left over from these primers. This stuff contains a huge amount of water. Waters is what will take out the salts from the barrel. A couple of months ago, I bought a case of this stuff on Ebay to have.

If you don't have any of that stuff, just heat up some water, pitch a little detergent in it and swab the bore five or six times with it, using a clean patch each time. Then clean with any good bore cleaner and you will be just fine.

This is the long way around the mountain to tell you to use the primers. They are as good or better than whatever you will replace them with. If you don't want the military load, pull the bullets, resize the neck and load whatever you want in the cases. Save the powder, it is probably 4895.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Thanks Chargar!

I've been digging around in the basement trying to get all my 30-cal stuff organized. Found a few Garand clips loaded with the old military ammo, and I'm going to shoot those, figuring it's neither good for the clips to stay loaded for years, nor the brass, as it's tarnishing at a different rate, depending on whether it's in an area protected by the clip or not.

I'll definitely be using Chargar's advice on cleaning. Makes it sound much simpler than I was worried about. I assume I will also need to clean out the gas system, right?

As far as the rest of it, I've been cleaning and processing the pull-down and commercial brass I have. Looks like I've got a couple hundred commercial, which I've been using for my cast loads, and I've got 1000 LC 5 that were pulled down. I think that will keep me in loads for awhile! :)

Also had a buddy who called and said he bought a lot of reloading stuff at an auction and included was 1000 147gr 30-cal FMJs. Wanted to know if I'd like them for $20? Ahhhh, YEAH!!

The cases I got from Bartlett were filthy and nasty. So, I've been doing the citric acid and polishing treatment to them all day today (in batches of about 200). I should have them finished up (cleaning-wise) by tomorrow. Next step will be chamfering the primer crimp off and annealing them. Then, I'll be ready to load! Should have my Garand ammo for the year loaded up before the end of the month...

[NickSS]

I just finished firing off the last of my LC 43 ammo I had stored for years. I fired a box and found that I was getting duds so proceeded to shoot off the rest of the 240 rounds in the can and ended up with about 20% that fail to fire. I pulled the bullets and dumped the powder and there was some decomposition starting in some of the powder. So I burned all of it in my back yard and made a nice flair for the 4th of July with it. All the brass was cleaned resized deprimed and I removed the crimp with my Dillon decrimper. All of it has now been reloaded and sealed in its can again and it will outlast me unless I shoot it off. I still have several cans of original M2 ball from the 50s but I may shoot that stuff off too as it is getiting old and ammo does have a shelf life.

[Char-Gar]

Don't burn unwanted smokeless powder. Dump it in your your flower beds. It makes great fertilizer.

[jonk]

I bought a bag of primed 06 cases- about 800- in an antique store. Dates ranged from 1902 (I guess those were originally 30-03 cases, the previous owner had cut them to 8mm Mauser!) to 1942. All with original primers.

Out of 800 I had 1 misfire.

I fired those original primers, no issues. Then cleaned as corrosive, and kept the brass. Still have most of it. A few died due to attrition and cracked necks before annealing. With cast loads and neck sizing, some of it is on reload 60+ with no problem.

[MakeMineA10mm]

jonk,
That's very intriguing. What kind of rifle(s) have you been shooting them through? I know some guys assert you'd be lucky to get much more than 10 reloads in something with a large chamber and abusive action, such as a Garand. Just curious if the action of your rifle(s) has any effect on the number of loadings you're getting. (I suppose the type of loads and resizing would make a difference too... Were these mild cast bullet loads? Did you neck-size or full-length?)


The 1000 once-fired brass I got was some I ordered 12-13 years ago from Bartlett. Found it when I was digging in the back closet of the reloading room. It's "LC 5" headstamped, which some say is 1955 (due to military not repeating numbers on double-date years), but I've seen some others say it could be WWII brass, because they used "simplified headstamps" with just the last digit of the year during the war. Either way, it's either 55 or 65 years old, which is old. Due to that, I've taken some steps to prep the brass:

1. Ran them through the citric acid wash which seems to have loosened some of the years of grit and nastiness. The chemists here at CB say it "passivates" the brass, which restores some of it's healthiness and makes it less likely to corrode in the future.

2. Tumbled the dickens out of them! :) Ran them in corn cob media for 4-8 hours. (Only really need 4 hours, but I had to run them in batches, so I'd run some overnight while sleeping, which let them go a lot longer -- didn't make any difference in the shine, the 4-hr polish was just as bright as 8 hrs.)

3. Next step is going to be annealing. With 1000 pieces, I've got to put some planning into this too. Probably do batches of 200. Need a few more firebrick and some additional torches, so I don't run out in the middle of the process...

4. After annealing, they're getting run through the Dillon Rapid Trim 1200 to trim.

5. Light chamfer on inside and outside of neck and then turn it over and run the primer crimp off with the chamfering tool all in the same step.

6. Light polish (~1/2 hr.) to get rid of the brass shavings and some of the discoloration/soot from the annealing operation.

Once that's all done, I'm hoping to get many reloads from them, but then again, I plan on using them in a Garand, so we'll see...

[jonk]

I think I only ever shot 30 or 40 through the M1. Usually I save my LC or HXP brass for that as I have tons and plenty still in spam cans. And you are right, with standard M2 loads of 49 gr of 4895 and a 150 gr jacketed, I usually only get 6-8 loads. Mainly the rim gets ripped up before anything else.

I've shot the old stuff in an 03, 03A3, 1917, Mauser M954, and an NEF Handi rifle. As I've segregated the lots (I full length sized after the initial shooting), I'm now just neck sizing.

It's been a mix of jacketed and cast loads, with a few of the ones for the 1917 and 03 being fairly high power, but I'd say 85% of them have been mild ones, no doubt why the brass lasts so long.

The ones reformed to 8mm are another story. Until recently I didn't have 8mm neck dies. Those have suffered a higher attrition rate, about 30%. I also cut some down to 7.65X54 Mauser which required annealing and neck reaming as well. Those I've lost maybe 1 or 2, but probably due to the annealing, otherwise are fine.

[flounderman]

the lacquer around the pimer will tell you if it is corrosive or not. red is corrosive, black is not. you can use he corrosive primers, but clean with hot water afterwards. don't depend on oils or bore cleaners to protect your barrel. they will not. use hot soapy water, place the muzzle in the water and using a patched cleaning rod from the bolt end, draw the hot water up in the barrel and scrub it by pushing and pulling the rod back and forth. the heat will dry the inside of the barrel, run a dry patch or two and then use the oil patch. I bought some brass a while back that turned out to be almost as old as I am. I used the hot soapy water on the brass to remove the residue before I tumbled them.