Lead-free load process- Where now?

[inthebeech]

I've goten some great advice here recently on what is going on with a Flattop Blackhawk (now with about 500 cast and 100 jacketed rounds through and a new FC anle of eleven degrees) in 44 Special with unusually large throats (.4325) for its groove diameter (.4294).
The consensus was that my problems were one or more of the following;
*** Too soft of an alloy (using scrap of unknown hardness but fairly soft I suspect).
*** Too large of a bullet diameter (using .433's based on advice here that it harms nothing and perhaps could eliminate leading if bullet first swages into throats).
*** too hot of a load (6.5 grains Unique with 220 gr bullets)

So I started over yesterday, with the following test and results and am now asking for input on where to go from here / what variables to work on, since the loads below now only give very slight leading in the FC only, which I'd like to take down to nothing.

*** Kept bullet alloy unchanged - not dead soft just whatever you get with a variety of recycled scrap.
*** Dropped charge to 5 gr Unique - velocity is off the loading charts so this is likely well under 700 f/s by my estimation.
*** Bought a Lee push through sizer and sized test bullets to .430. The bullet recall is a custom design of mine- a TL wadcutter design lubbed with LA.
*** Bullets lubbed and then sized but not relubbed.
*** I can now seat bullets about halfway in to the throats since it is now under this diameter. No crimp and bullets are seated with approximately half their length in the cases (cases fully sized to get necesary neck tension.).
*** I tested with and without a card wad beneath the bullet with no difference in that small amount of leading, so whatever benefit this component typically offers, I did not see a dramatic difference with these other variable as they were. This was just another idea that was recommended so I tried it.

So as I say, results now are telling me I'm on the right track and I'd appreciate your input on where to go from here (bullet diameter, throat polishing, charge, lube (I'd like to if possible continue to use Lee LA on this TL design.), powder type, seating depth, wad (Y/N or wad material), crimp (Y/N), alloy...)

Although bullets are still unknown alloy - I did collect a couple hundred pounds of WW which I plan to add tin to by following Lymans recipe for #2 alloy (about 12-14 BHN). Keep this in mind as you respond. I can now go up in hardness and it moves in to a KNOWN hardness which I think is important.

Thanks all,
Ed

[HeavyMetal]

The problem is the LLA, sorry.

You lube size but don't relube. Sizng rubs most of the lube of of every TL design I have seen so unless your "custom" has a bit deeper lube grooves your problem is here.

If you wish to continue with LLA re apply after sizing.

I simply detest Tumble Lube. Not because you can't make it work but because by the time you do make it work I will have sized, lubed, loaded, and maybe even been to the range.

Having said all that re lube your boolits, don't change anything else in the process and see how the leading is.

[exile]

Since you are committed to tumble lubing, have you tried equal parts LLA, Johnson's Paste Wax and mineral spirits? I don't have that much experience with it, but it seemed to work well for me.

exile

[Dale53]

I have a friend who shoots the .45 Colt. He was using LLA and getting leading. I had him shoot a few of my loads with Lars White Label Carnauba Red. Leading IMMEDIATELY ceased.

He has now switched to Carnauba Red and his leading problems are over.

This is NOT to imply that leading is simply a lube problem. It is one possibility.

I size my bullets to fit the cylinder throat. That IS critical. I use conventional lube grooves. I use a good lube and lube/size conventionally. I have many revolvers and pistols and shoot a LOT. I use NOTHING but my own cast bullets in a variety of calibers from the .32 S&W Long to the .454 Casull. All velocities from mild to wild.

I get NO leading of any kind. When I shot BPCR and conventional rifles I got NO leading. Leading is NOT a necessary part of this.

Dale53

[runfiverun]

i'd try relubing first.
if that helps, then move the loads forward.
the alloy can come later.

[fecmech]

My $.02 is you will get no where with .430 boolits in .4325 throats with mousefart loads. You are gas cutting your bullets before they ever get to the barrel. I shot my Ruger SBH for years as a .44 mag with top end mag loads and no leading. Couple years back decide to download and voila, lead up the wazoo! Find I have .433 throats, stout charges of 296 covered up this problem (I had sized .430). Recovered bullets from snow and found rifling almost gone due to gas cutting (7 grs of Green dot). I beagled the mold to .436 and size to .433 now and no leading ( with GD and 231) and accuracy improved on the mag loads. You are working with a marginal lube system IMO and therefore fit is important. You are working with a powder that reaches it's max pressure almost before the bullet exits the case and using a .430 plug in a .433 hole. Gas is going to go past the bullet and cut. I have no idea what other problems your Ruger may have but a small bullet and fast powder is guaranteed to lead!

[Lloyd Smale]

like was said switch to your #2 alloy and dump the alox and pick up a lubesizer and id bet your problems go away. Fecmech also brings up a good point. Using soft bullets undersized at low velocity is a certian recipe for leading. If you insist on using real soft alloys you need to kick that bullet in the but enough to get it to bump up to the rifling or size it bigger to begin with and use a high quality lube

[Bass Ackward]

So as I say, results now are telling me I'm on the right track and I'd appreciate your input on where to go from here (bullet diameter, throat polishing, charge, lube (I'd like to if possible continue to use Lee LA on this TL design.), powder type, seating depth, wad (Y/N or wad material), crimp (Y/N), alloy...) Ed



Gun + hardness + design + lube + leading (yes I did put leading here) are the factors that establish the window in which you can operate accurately. Strength in any one area can widen this operating window, but gun, hardness, and leading are the biggest factors. So your willingness to accept some leading at least at first is a HUGE factor to increasing your accuracy options. Often the most accurate loads lead.

Ed. The thing you are missing here is that no one can tell you about your gun. You got the leading stopped, and unfortunately, this pretty much becomes your baby. You can read and study about all the factors that you mention. Bore conditions, which is everything from dimensions to finish to alignment improve with round count. And I would say that conditions continue to improve (wear) until about 10k to 12k rounds. Then you have all THAT gun will ever be.

600 rounds total ain't goinna get'er done. So you find an accuracy point and you shoot. And every once in awhile you try to widen the operating range. If you can, then you have more powders that can be used to try to improve accuracy.

There is no knowledge, no experimentation routine, no magic switch that can be flipped to give you total freedom unless the gun permits it. Every gun is a law unto itself. Why do you think jacketed were invented?

The best thing you can do is go hard so that your slug requires less lube. But even that will get you only so far. You will benefit greatly, if you lose some of your fear of leading. And the fun of cast is the journey. learn to appreciate that fact.

If the journey ain't fun, then it's best for you if you go back to jacketed till you (and the gun) are ready.

[Heavy lead]

If you must tumble lube at least cut it with JPW, I hate the stuff myself and simply think your boolit design is the biggest problem, if your throats weren't so oversized it might work fine. I'd suggest sizing to .433 with a standard lube groove boolit with a good lube, I use BAC, but there are many other suitable, the soft alloy shouldn't be a problem either, the Unique load of 6.5 isn't too heavy, it's on the lighter side of life, I'm thinking a .433 sized boolit with the 640 nose profile with a standard lube groove with 6.5 grains of Unique with a boolit weight of 220 to 260 is where I would start, I'd call for some help here and see if someone has a few they can send you, I suppose a SWC would work too, but especially since you are asking the forcing cone to swage from .4325 to .4295, I'm thinking the SWC or wadcutters are going to be the worse choice for this revolver and a RNFP of some sort is in order.

[btroj]

Stick with sizing to throat diameter. Unless, of course, you enjoy cleaning lead out of your barrel.
I also agree with the other about trying a different lube. That can make a big difference.
And sometimes you just have to plat around with things. Try a slightly harder alloy. Maybe use what you have now but add magnum shot and water drop.
So many variables. This is the real test of you cast bullet knowledge. Figure out what work for you and your gun and you will have passed. Experiment, test, try. Keep at it, you will find the answer. And when you do, the satisfaction is worth the effort.

[inthebeech]

Thanks all. I appreciate the help. So different that I can comment individually;

*** Heavymetal and Runfiverun: Thank you. I relubed and there is definately a more thorough coating, especially the areas that were clearly affeced by the push through die.

*** exile: I will also try the modified TL recipe. Thank You.

*** Dale: I know that conventional wisdom suggests going with a traditional Lube/Sizer. I may have to go this route eventually but I'd like to exhaust options with this TL design. I just dropped a hundred bucks on the mold; a design which folks on this very site agreed was a good design for my goals and my gun.

*** fecmec and lloyd smale: I went that route already. Did all the generally recommended stuff - cast and sized to .433(half a thou over throats) and pushed a soft alloy fairly hard (7 grains Unique that most likely pushed it to about 900+ f/s) to get it to upset and seal - Result: gun leaded at FC and about a half an inch down bore. Folks on this site (obviously not you so please don't be ofended) cautioned me in exactly what you just recommended. The advice was "Too fast for a bullet too soft that you are swaging down too much."
*** Bass Ackward - good point and good advice. Stick with what minimally at least, leads and shoot a lot until it's broken in.
*** Heavy Lead - This is very reasonable. I have on hand some Truncated Cone style bullets with very high quality lube from Penn Bullets which are a drastically different design than my custom WC's. They mic .4315 which is about midway between the groove and the throat dimensions. I'll load them up with both light and moderate (to upset as recommended) charges and see. If successful I can go get that, or a similar style mold.

As a footnote I will mention that I have at least a curious interest in today's range session, if not actually hopeful. I polished the new forcing cone which my gunsmith left with the typical surface finish common with tapered reamers - i.e. not great. So the FC os now very much smoother without having to remove too much material. I basically honed it.

So today I'll be bringing
***'double lubbed' rounds,
***oversized rounds (.433's pushed very hard to just confirm that this particular recommendation for some reason just isn't right for my gun)
***TC style with higher performing lube.

[fecmech]

Inthebeech--I haven't read back through the various posts but had you ever pulled a bullet from a loaded round when you sized at .433?? If so was the diameter of the pulled bullet still .433??

[Dale53]

Inthebeech--I haven't read back through the various posts but had you ever pulled a bullet from a loaded round when you sized at .433?? If so was the diameter of the pulled bullet still .433??

NOTE:
If anyone is measuring "pulled bullets" keep in mind that pulling bullets will not necessarily show what happens when the "big light goes on".

IF you seat bullets and then DO NOT CRIMP before pulling you will get similar results to bullets that are fired. However, CRIMPED cases WILL size down bullets when pulled. FIRED bullets reportedly (I haven't been inside a case when the round is fired to definitely state this is so[smilie=1:) expand the case before the bullet exits so the crimp doesn't affect the size as it would pulled bullets.

Just a thought from one who has pulled LOTS of bullets and measured them (as well as shot lots and recovered them).

Dale53

[inthebeech]

fecmech,
I haven't pulled bullets but I have taken case wall dimensions (not perfect because of their tapered thickness but close) and with this I can tell that roughly the bullet gives a thou and the case also gives a thou. I am sure that there is a bit of springback so the net of it is that when i was trying .433's, I was very likely initially sending .4325-.433's into the throats. I don't think that I am sizing down any moe than .0005, especially since for this larger diameter I wasn't even sizing the case.

It is evening now here in upstate NY and after today's range session I can say this;
*** double tumble lubbing doesn't improve things.
*** the extra light (4.9 gr Unique) load with the soft(ish) recycling yard scrap, the 220 gr WC sized to .430 (That's right, .430 bullet fired in a .4325 throat) and the newly polished forcing cone gives about as close to no leading as I could expect (so much for the gas blowby theory) - enough at least to use this as a starting point to no go on and see if the darn thing is even accurate (To date all I have been concerned about is leading and not accuracy yet).
Ed

[runfiverun]

so you bypassed the ideal, and are now narrowing in on what works.

load development and alloy changes next.

[fecmech]

Where in upstate NY?? I'm in the Lockport area, might be able to help.

[mroliver77]

How about trying the .433 boolits with your 4.9 load? Mebbe your lead alloy is really soft? If my throats were .4325 I would size .432 and be good to go. If I still had leading I would look elsewhere. I have a bunch of indoor range scrap. It is ok for .38WC type loads but warmer stuff like 45acp and 38+p it is too soft. I was surprised that water dropping did harden it to 9 -10ish on the Lee tester and it works great for the middle pressure handgun loads now.
I had a Spanish .38 that gave me fits with BullsEye and Unique. I went to Blue Dot loads that gave same fps and it was very clean! sometimes a slower powder can help ease the transition from cylinder to forcing cone to barrel.
Jay