Lee 22 Bator mold caution

[jmh54738]

My 22 Bator mold arrived today and I cast up a few to dimension. I hope that the batch that Midsouth is shipping out are not all like this one. I printed out the detailed print of the bullet, so I know what it should look like. The mold that I have produces a bullet that has a gas check shank that is only .030" long, then a .055" wide third lube groove. The gas check has nowhere to crimp as this area is a lube groove. Also, the bottom of the mold blocks mismatch in height by about .005" to .025", although this does no harm. I will be calling Lee tomorrow, and I will report the results on this site.
Bullet dimensions were taken on a 14" X 10X Optical Comparitor
John

[BCall]

Was it a 2 cavity or 6? I got a 6 cavity when they first became available and haven't done anything with it yrt, so I pulled it out and I can't tell any difference between it and the 2 cavity I have. Looks just like the drawings.

[jmh54738]

Bcall, It is a two cavity.

[BCall]

My 2 cavity is a couple of years old. Wonder if it was just yours or all of the 2 cavity ones. Guess we'll see if anyone else has an issue. Thanks, Billy

[phaessler]

I checked mine (a 2-cavity), had it about 6 months now, and looks ok, casts ok, but the GC shank runs small, you get a spinny check when crimped/sized.
Pete

[smokemjoe]

Got one mid summer and it was okey, 2 cav.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I got a 2 cav. bator this fall from Midsouth.
and yes the gas check shank is real short...I didn't measure it.
I lubed some with 45-45-10 and
I dip lubed some with a experimental beeswax base lube.
the gator checks I have don't "snap" on, they fit very loose and they can just fall off before sizing.
when I do size them with a Lee .225 push through sizer die, they crimp on tight.
I can't pick them off with a finger nail, in fact I had a few go on crooked,
and I had to use a pliers to pull the Check off.

When My range thaws out ????
I have some loaded for 22 hornet I am itching to shoot.
Jon

[Moonie]

Mine is the same as JonB_in_Glencoe, I was unaware I needed a crimp groove lol.

[jmh54738]

I talked to the mold technician at Lee Precision, who stated that the bullet should look just like the print that I downloaded from Midsouth, which shows an .085 long gas check shank. He asked me to return the mold to the factory for replacement. He was professional and polite; I could not ask for more to end the year.
John

[jmh54738]

Moonie, there is not supposed to be a crimp groove for the gas check. The .215 diameter of the gas check shank should be long enough to provide solid metal for the gas check to crimp in to. In the case of my mold, the .215 shank diameter is only .030" long and then the bullet diameter is reduced to .205", thus the gas check is trying to crimp into thin air. I think that your and JonB's mold are just like mine. Being CNC machined, the recently made batch may be all the same.
John

[Moonie]

My gas checks crimp on perfectly, do not spin, do not come off even when pulling boolits out of cases with an impact hammer.

My Bator boolits shoot great as well, I have no issues with mine at all. I'm sorry you do and glad Lee is taking care of it for you.

Mine looks just like the image, haven't measured it as I haven't had any issues with it.

[wallenba]

John, I recieved my six cav from them this week. I won't be able to cast for a while so I took a pic. I don't have the tools you have for measuring that small (or the eyes to see it). Can you tell anything just from looking at it? click first image, click second image and then single click again for largest pic.

My Hornady checks measure .040 from the inside center bottom of the cup to top of the rim. The closest I can check with my caliper is what you get a .030 high shank. I think they could be OK if they grip good.

[leadman]

My most recent Lee molds have a groove at the top of the gascheck shank. These are the 310gr 44 cal and 300gr 45 cal in 6 cavity. Don't know why Lee made this change as the gascheck does not crimp into this groove.
The difference in height of the 2 mold halves is probably due to Lee cutting the molds with a mill one side at a time, so if the aluminum block is not set up properly this can happen.
The group buy Mak bullet molds had the center of the cut offset to one block, made it very difficult to get the bullet to drop out. Lee did replace all molds turned in. Mine works great.

[jmh54738]

Hey Dutch, you did a great job with that photo, much better than my explaining it. You have exactly the same situation that I have. My gas checks are loose even when sized .224. The gas check has nothing to lock onto, as you stated, the gas check shank on the bullet is .030 high and the gas check has an inside height of .040. The gas check is not supported for 25% of its length. Sending you a PM.
John

[Doc Highwall]

phaessler, have you tried annealing your gas checks to eliminate spring-back after sizing?

[wallenba]

Hey Dutch, Sending you a PM.
John

Got it, sent reply. I also just tried the 22LR case paper punch I talked about. It fits just fine in the check. Please try one on a boolit and see if it works. Could save a lot of trouble.
P.S. two disks reduced the check inside height to exactly .030 with the paper I used.
A 17 HMR case would be even better and easier to handle, but I don't have any.

[home in oz]

I got one from Midsouth yesterday, have to check it out.

[jmh54738]

Dutch, I have a dozen bullets to play with, but the mold already went back.
Sent you another PM
John

[johnly]

My six cavity is scheduled to arrive on Tuesday, and I have a 2 cavity mold that I purchased several years ago to compare with. Hopefully all is well.

John

[jmh54738]

Johnly, be sure to let us know, as you will have the old and the new together in the same place at the same time.
John

[1Shirt]

No problem with mine. Very early 2 cav, and it, casts, checks, sizes, lubes and shoots ok. Not the most accurate of my 22's however.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[jmh54738]

1shirt, does your early 2 cavity look like the photo provided by Dutch, or is the gc area different?

[phaessler]

No I havent Doc, good thought, never crossed my mind actually, as few of these as I shoot, it would be nice to have them perfect.

Thanks
Pete

[jmh54738]

Leadman, I have the same Lee 44 cal 300 grain bullet mold. As my gaschecks were loose after sizing, I make up a mandrel a couple of thousands larger than the gc area of the mold. With the mandrel in place, I just squeezed the mold shut in a milling machine vise. I am using these bullets at .432 in a 444 Marlin. Tightened up the gc. This bullet has the same undercut in the gc area as my Bator mold.
John

[twotoescharlie]

I also recieved one from midsouth this week. same problem g/c shank about 2 hairs wide, almost nonw existant. shipping back to lee.

TTC

[johnly]

Johnly, be sure to let us know, as you will have the old and the new together in the same place at the same time.
John

Will do. The old mold had delivered some fine accuracy in several of my rifles, which is why I ordered the 6 cavity mold. Assuming the 6 cavity has the same flaw as reported by others, I can send them bullet samples from the good mold.

What is the contact point and address for returning the mold?

John

[jmh54738]

Johnly, sent PM
John

[johnly]

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee13/johnly1923/MVC-001L.jpg
Not good news...

John

[Bullshop]

It looks to me like they just went to a stepped shank.
I even prefer the stepped shank to the straight taper shank.

[stubshaft]

I have one of the last ones produced in their prior run that has the tapered shank. Unlike most of you, the shank on mine is too large for the GC. I was going to send it back but was just waiting until the mould was produced again. Now I wonder if it is even worht it?

[Denver]

Thanks for the heads up on this. I was about to order one to use with my 218 Bee, but was pondering if it might be too heavy. I have an old Winchester model 43 that probably has a 16 inch twist barrel. I don't know if a 55 grain boolit would be stabilized with this twist rate or not.

:cbpour:

[Bullshop]

Compare the length of the 22 Bator boolit at 55gn to the length of a 55gn jacketed spitzer bullet. The Bator will be perhaps 25 to 30 % shorter at the same weight.
It is length rather than weight that demands higher rotational velocity to be stable in flight.
I seem to remember but may be wrong in this but I seem to remember the 22 Bator being specifically designed to be stable at subsonic velocities fired from a 1/16" twist.

[felix]

Correct! Bator should be fine in anyone's 16 twist. Wally talked about that with me as one of his intentions for his TC gun with a custom 16 barrel. ... felix

[JIMinPHX]

This picture shows boolits from a 2-cav Bator mold that I got a year or two ago next to a Lyman 225415 that is a little older, but not that much. These boolits shoot well out of a 1:12 twist.

I actually kind of like the looks of that new mold. I kind of half wanted to get a 6-cav now that they are out, but I really could not justify it as I don't shoot them up that fast. A new profile may give me the excuse that I was looking for.

If anybody has one of the new style Bator molds that they want to get rid of, Please PM me rather than sending it back. I'll be happy to give you what you paid for it.

[Denver]

Compare the length of the 22 Bator boolit at 55gn to the length of a 55gn jacketed spitzer bullet. The Bator will be perhaps 25 to 30 % shorter at the same weight.
It is length rather than weight that demands higher rotational velocity to be stable in flight.
I seem to remember but may be wrong in this but I seem to remember the 22 Bator being specifically designed to be stable at subsonic velocities fired from a 1/16" twist.

Thanks for the info Bullshop. Looks like the Bator molds are sold out at Midsouth or they sent them back. I may try one of Ranch Dogs mold that he had made up for use in the 218 Bee. It's a 50 grain and I'm bettin they're on spec.

[Bullshop]

The Ranch Dog design is much like the Bator design in that it has a very compact length to weight. The RD may be even shorter than the bator. I have both but have not YET compared them.
The RD design has the largest meplate of any 22 design I have seen. I can testify as to its effectiveness on at least one coyote that came into hornet range. A 9.5gn charge of H 4227 under the RD boolit planted in the center of the shoulder broadside crumpled the young and too inquisitive song dog.
Another was used on likely my longest shot to date with a hornet at about 200 yards on a crow that lit on a manure pile.
Its funny that our F&G game regs say that there is no closed season on crow but there is no open season on Raven.
In the description section of the book if you look up crow it says " see raven"
and if you look up Raven it says " see crow."
If they land on the manure pile there all crows and susceptible to elimination by hornet.

[6.5 mike]

Try a pp'ed 200 gr in a 30-40 krag hiwall, takes bout 15 minutes for the feathers to quit falling. One was dumb enough to land on the crossrail on the 100 yd range, just couldn't help myself. :evil:

[Bullshop]

What a wast!!! I can get 4 lovely little 22's from the same lead.
I do love to see the feathers fly though. 22's dont put on much of a feather show.
On the other hand when I shoot them in a sabot from an 06 at 4000+ fps the feathers do fly.

[6.5 mike]

It was either the krag or a 405 gr pp'ed 45-70 from the sharps, LOL. I always look for one when I have the swift with me but no luck yet [smilie=w:.

[telebasher]

It was either the krag or a 405 gr pp'ed 45-70 from the sharps, LOL. I always look for one when I have the swift with me but no luck yet [smilie=w:.

Didn't you know crows are psyhic? LOL.

[badbob454]

What a wast!!! I can get 4 lovely little 22's from the same lead.
I do love to see the feathers fly though. 22's dont put on much of a feather show.
On the other hand when I shoot them in a sabot from an 06 at 4000+ fps the feathers do fly.

bullshop... what is the trick to loading sabots mine keyhole and dont shoot straight. i tried them in a 308 and ss109 is it the heavier bullet ? would a bator work better? they (ss109) seemed to load straight and seated fully , maybe the bevel base of the ss109 tipped when the sabot released ? i dont know :killingpc

[Bullshop]

badbob
A couple trick we learned about shooting boolits in sabot.
#1 pre size the boolits in a nose first push through at .224" That is so they correctly fit the sabot and seat squarely in it.
#2 seat boolits squarely and firmly to the bottom of the sabot. We do this with a lube sizer press using a .308" die installed and a top punch that fits the boolit nose.
#3 use a boolit design that has enough bearing surface that the petals of the sabot lye flat on the bearing surface, not on any portion of ogive.
No lube or gas checks needed for this even if the boolit is a GC design.
We get about 1.5 MOA for 10 shots at 100 yards from a 30/06 at 4100 fps. They will go quite a bit faster but that is where we get best accuracy.

[Doc Highwall]

Bullshop, who's sabots do you use.

[6.5 mike]

basher, I just figured them to be really good targets :Fire:

[Bullshop]

I would have to check to find out. They are at my shop and I am here chatting which makes me realize I am not getting any work done.
Anyway the ones we use are flat gray color and have 5 petals. We didn't have as good results with the red colored ones or the opaque ones.

[Faret]

Just received a mold with the different shank is everybody sending there's back?

[johnly]

Does it cast bullets that look like this?

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee13/johnly1923/MVC-002L-1.jpg


http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee13/johnly1923/MVC-003L.jpg

The new style mold drops bullets .2250" x .2255", while the old mold drops bullets .2245 x .2250"

The real problem is the fit of gas check in the base area. The gap you see the second picture is due the belted shank, and the belt diameter that is ~.007" smaller than the old mold. Gas checks on to old style mold snap into place, while the smaller diameter shank area on the new mold lets the gas check slide sisde to side a considerable amount.

I just don't think this is going to work out well at the range...

John

[stubshaft]

Just received a mold with the different shank is everybody sending there's back?

I had the older style tapered shank but it was too large. I called Lee Precision and sopke to one of the techs there. He was at a loss to explain who/when the shank was redesigned. He did tell me that there were alot of them there?

Anyhoo, mine went back last week...

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Bump to top, since there is recent activity on this subject.

Has anyone bought one of these from Midsouth in the last week ?
2 cav. or 6 cav. ?
what style of GC shank does you r mold have ?
Jon

PS: See photo of both types in post #28 if you are unfamiliar with what I am asking

[Hamish]

Jon, just got done buying 6.5 CM, Bator, and .323 Max from MS. Had not read threads on Bator yet and just knew that if I did'nt grab one,,,,,. I had planned to shoot this boolit in Contender rifle and sabot'ed in 10" 30-30 pistol. Folks, am I gathering that saboted it will likely make no dif if goofy version? The .284 Lee I own is a dream, but have had trouble with a .44 mold, (am planning on sending bbl to Mike Bellm to see if it is the throat as it is throwing gc and j@(k=t=d all over, and a .45 that is so out of round that loaded rounds wont chamber. Off thread topic, should I have waited till the karabiner mold was back in stock instead of buying the Max.? To All: I have enough experience that I can mold a good bullet, but man, some of the raw noggin' horsepower being slung on this site just amazes me. I have been coveting a 6.5x55 for a couple of years, but between .223,30-30,7TCU,.44,.303 Brit, 7.62x43R,and the carry rounds,(38 & 45), I've been waiting for the right rifle. After reading some of the Cruise Missile thread(s) I bebopped to Mid South for a mold for a round I don't even have! Gentlemen, if I had only been able to learn about making boolit lube and tumbling non TL boolits I would consider myself very lucky!! Will be very interested to see some kind of concensus reached over this batch of molds. BTW, does MSSS know any of this, do they care, does Lee really give a patootie? Changing the specs on a mold, let alone a .224???

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I just got my second Bator mold today from Midsouth.
I'll try to cast with in in the next couple of days.

At first glance, It looks like the tapered gas check shank.
But when I put a boolit cast from my first mold (a stepped GC shank).
it fits perfectly, except the stepped portion extends up beyond the top of the mold. I am worried that the GC shank will be too small.
the lube grooves are the same ??? Others here have posted photos
where the lube grooves were wider ?
I tried to take a few photos, I could focus as close up as I'd like, but here they are.
Jon

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1607.jpg

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1609.jpg

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1605.jpg

[Moonie]

One thing I have noticed that is the reason I'm having so much trouble in my AR with this boolit is that the nose is larger in diameter than the old design. The old design the nose appeared to be more bore rider, now it is full diameter to almost the end...

Not good for a semi-auto

I'm thinking another mold would be easier than getting a nose sizer and sizing all of them twice.

[vernm]

My mould arrived this afternoon. Looking at it with a magnafiying glass, I can see no step. Looks like a tapered gas check shank.

The young lady in customer service at Mid South was not aware of any problem with the 22 Bator.

[stubshaft]

Hey JonB,
Mic the nose section righ tin front of the first lube groove. According to the original drawing it should be .219. The last mould that I got measures .224. I sent it to Felix to play with because it pushes the base into the case.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

stub,
both my molds are .224+
in fact, the stepped shank boolits I cast are arouns .227 to .228
then it gets sized down to .225 by my sizing die.
I had no problem loading them into 22 hornet
and they are plenty accurate in my Ruger #3

I'm not sure what you mean here,

"because it pushes the base into the case."
unless you are talking about a semi-auto ?
Jon

[stubshaft]

Both my K-hornet and 223 have short throats. The old design was a bore rider and would extend into the chamber. Now the nose hits the leade and I have to seat it deeper.

[JIMinPHX]

One of the board members that didn't want his new style 6-banger sold it to me. Now I have an old style & a new style to play with. The boolits certainly are different.

The old Bator has a driving band diameter around .226", a nose around .221" & a full length GC shank around .217", which is actually a little snug on my checks. I think that .215" would be better for the GC shank.

The new style Bator has a .227" driving band, .226" nose, & a .209" GC shank that is only about .03" long & runs into a lube groove.

The new style has wider & deeper lube grooves.

[JIMinPHX]

The new mold might present some opportunities though. The GC hole in the mold measures .201" which is exactly the same as a #7 reamer. If someone wanted a GC shank of a particular depth, they could just plunge a reamer in an extra .02" or so & get a perfect length GC shank that still has a little lube groove in front of it. That might be worth playing with. A #6 reamer is .204" & since a .201 hole now gives a .209 shank, the .204 reamer should give a .212" shank that should work nicely.

I'm also thinking about reaming the GC shank out of a few cavities completely, since I have 6 cavities to work with. A .2188" (7/32") reamer should give me about .227" on the base. I've always wondered how the Bator would work as a plain base. Now I may have a chance to find out.

That part about the nose being a little bigger is causing me some trouble though. It is just big enough to rub in my seating die. I may have to swage the nose back into a bore rider. I'll wait & see about that.

[JIMinPHX]

I've been fooling around with reaming out the short GC shank on the new style mold. I've come up with a few workable options for different applications. Results look good. I'll try to get pictures posted in a day or two.

[JIMinPHX]

The story is basically this: another board member sold me his new style 6-cav Bator mold & I’ve been fooling around with it, trying to find some better base shank options. Below is what I have so far.

The first picture shows the results of the following modifications:

(left) a .2188” reamer plunged to .12” deep. This leaves a shank of around .220” diameter. I think that this would be good for use with a GC that was punched out of a .004” thick beer or soda can.

(center) a .201” reamer was plunged .05” deep. Basically, there was no change as this reamer just grazed the grease groove & did not extend the shank at all.

(right) a .209 reamer was plunged .05” deep. The gave me a little bigger GC shank. The Hornady GC knocked around a little on the shank because it was slightly undersized, but once I ran it through a .228” size die, it grabbed on firm & did not jiggle around at all. I think that this is probably about the minimum that is needed for good results.

The second picture shows my second round of attempts.

(left) is the results of a .213” reamer being plunged .06” deep. This shank was just big enough to hold a GC that was pressed on by hand. It did not knock around at all, even before being crimped.

(center) shows an equivalent boolit that had the GC crimped on with a .228 size die. It is on there SOLID. I think that this is how I'm going to set up 4 of my 6 cavities, at least for now.

(right) shows the results of a .228” reamer being plunged .12” deep. This is now basically a plain base Bator.

It will probably be at least next week before I get a chance to load any of these up to see how they do at the range. If anyone has any comments or suggested loads, please feel free to share your thoughts.

Personally, I’d be tickled half to death if I can find a way to get good performance out of the plain base version or the beer can GC version. I’m always looking for ways to be more frugal with my ammo manufacturing.

[kbstenberg]

Is there some way of identifieing if a mold is an old style or a new style?

[JIMinPHX]

Is there some way of identifieing if a mold is an old style or a new style?

Look back at the picture in post 28 on page 2 or the picture in post #57 on page 3. The difference should become apparent.

[Faret]

So what is everybody doing about the oversize nose?

[JIMinPHX]

So what is everybody doing about the oversize nose?

I take offense to that remark!:x

[JIMinPHX]

Just kidding.

Actually, I haven't done anything about the big nose yet, but I plan to make a little swaging die that is similar to the one that SmokemJoe makes for the Swiss rifles.

[jmh54738]

The big nose is not the "new style", it a continuous screw up, the inability of Lee to
produce a mold to the blueprint as the older molds had been. Send them back. Maybe some day they will get it right.

[stubshaft]

The big nose is not the "new style", it a continuous screw up, the inability of Lee to
produce a mold to the blueprint as the older molds had been. Send them back. Maybe some day they will get it right.

I plumb gave up. It was costing me more in shipping then the mold initially cost me.

[JIMinPHX]

The big nose is not the "new style", it a continuous screw up, the inability of Lee to
produce a mold to the blueprint as the older molds had been. Send them back. Maybe some day they will get it right.

I agree that is the proper way to handle this type of situation 95% of the time & I believe that Lee would make things right if you did send it back to them. It was a mistake on their part & they have always been good about standing behind their products & correcting their mistakes in the past.

I'm just doing what I am doing because this particular "mistake" in manufacturing gave me an opportunity to easily try some things that I had been wanting to try for a while now anyway. That plain base Bator is pretty close to being the exact boolit that I wanted to experiment with & the beer can base Bator is another one that falls into that same category. It was a lot easier to modify this mold than it would be to cut the entire cavity from scratch on a mold block that I made myself.

I'm not saying that I think everyone should follow in my footsteps here, but I suspect that a few others might want to take advantage of the opportunity if these off-spec boolits end up working out well. I hapen to be modifying my blocks on a Bridgeport, just because that is what I have in my shop. The reamer trick that I am using would likely work just as well in a slow speed drill press. Most anyone with good general tool using using skills, a drill press & a $20 reamer should be able to make these same modifications with equal success.

I may be opening up a can of worms here in saying this, but I have sort of had the expectation that having a small grease groove just forward of a short GC shank might be a good thing. If the theory about a gas check scraping lead off the inside of a fouled barrel is true (which is debatable) then this grease groove might give that scraped off lead a place to get deposited. That may be helpful in high speed boolit performance. Or that theory may be a bunch of hogwash. I don't know yet.

I plan to try these things out & see how they fly for me. I think that it will be interesting to learn what impact these subtle differences in heal geometry have on external ballistics, especialy in a fussy little .22.

[Moonie]

I'm sending mine back, soon. And will be pointing out both the oversized nose and stepped gas check shank.

[jmh54738]

Yes, I agree with all of you, either find a use for it as is, modify it to suit, or return it. And after paying shipping three times for an $18 mold, it is difficult to have pleasant, warm fuzzy feelings.

[JIMinPHX]

I loaded up 10 of the plain base Bators over 6 grains of Green Dot & tested them today. Speed was around 1875fps, but varied by a little over 5%. Accuracy was not that impressive. Barrel fouling was slight. I think that this can be made to work, but I don't think it is just going to fall into my lap all ready to go. I'll post more as I get time to try different variations. Today's particulars were -

Brass-mixed
Primer - WSR
Powder -Green Dot
Charge - 6 grains
Hardness - 13 BNH
Lube - Carnuba Red, both grooves
Sized - .225"
COAL - 2.075"
Crimp - slight

[JIMinPHX]

I was starting to get a little off topic here, so I started a separate thread to talk about some of the modifications that I'm going to try on the Bator. You can find that thread here - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1199576#post1199576

[lesharris]

I have purchased 2 double cavity and 2 six cavity Bator molds from Midsouth and all 4 are wrong. The nose portion is not like the "old" version and the gas check shank is too short. In other words wrong.
Lee will be getting these back in Mondays mail.
Les.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

lesharris,
I just got my 2 cav bator back from Lee.
Do not expect a change in nose profile.
ALSO, if you molds have the "stepped" Gas check shank,
the mold you get back will be tapered.
Just letting you know what I got.
Jon

[lesharris]

The nose profile I can live with.
The "stepped"gas check shank will not do. There is almost nothing for the check to grab on. Taoered is ok.'
Thanks for the heads up.
How long was turn around time approx.
Les.

[lesharris]

meant tapered.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

lesharris,
It took 4 weeks to get the one mold I sent in for fix/replace..they definately replaced it.

Also, you might check with "Bullshop"
he was wanting one of those Bators molds with the stepped gas check shank.

also you may want to cast some of those with your alloy,
run the pot a little hot, at least 750º and maybe as high as 800º
then see exactly how your prefered brand of gas check actually
crimps on.

I have one 2 cav. mold with the stepped gas check shank that I kept.
when using Lyman #2 alloy running at least 750º gets the boolits
about .229 the Gator checks fit loosely but not sloppy on the shank,
and when sized to .225 in a Lee push through sizer, the Check crimps
on nice and tight, even with the tiny stepped shank. they shot quite well
in my Ruger #3 22 Hornet, check out my targets in Bullshop's 22 only postal shoot
that just ended.

But, don't let me tell you what to do...I'm just offering my advice.
all Lee molds are hit and miss. I had 2 bator molds and one was a hit
the other was a miss. The one I sent in was a Bator with a taper
gas check shank that I ordered in Feb.
But the shank was too small and the check fit on
sloppy before sizing and wouldn't crimp on at all...it would just fall off.

I haven't tried casting with the replacement they sent me...yet.
Jon

[lesharris]

Excellant suggestion on trying the molds first,they can be returned later if I am not satisfied.
Still too cold to cast here in PA. Temps in teens again last night.More snow possible next Wed. again.Summer will come.
Thanks for the reply.

[koehlerrk]

Well, I just placed an order with Midsouth for a 2-cavity 22 Bator.

We'll see what I get when the brown truck shows up.

[stubshaft]

Well, I just placed an order with Midsouth for a 2-cavity 22 Bator.

We'll see what I get when the brown truck shows up.

It should not be like entering a lottery and seeing if you won. The biggest disappointment for me was that the big nose version had a perfect GC shank. I had one mold left with the oversize shank and proper nose profile so I milled off the shank and made a 40gr PB boolit.

I hope that the mold you get is correct in both the nose and GC dimensions.

[DCP]

I am more than a little disapointed in Lee about this situation

I have 3 2 cavities sitting in a box that is unopened. I had return them to Lee because they were defected. Still waiting on the 2 6 cavities that were bad. I bought them to make money on e-bay (LOL) I was told it was going to take 10 days. It took 45 days to get the 2 cavities back going on 3 months now for the 6. I also had to pay for shipping back to Lee
Now I just want to get my money back. (some day)

[koehlerrk]

Well, apparently, Midsouth is having an issue getting the molds from Lee. Still on backorder....

[johnly]

I returned a Midsouth 6 cavity to Lee and still don't have a replacement mold.:-(

John

[morme@gte.net]

I returned a Midsouth 6 cavity to Lee and still don't have a replacement mold.:-(

John

How long ago?

[stubshaft]

Well, apparently, Midsouth is having an issue getting the molds from Lee. Still on backorder....

Lee won't run them until they have enough of an order to make it worth their while. Midsouth won't place an order until they have enough backprders to justify it. Usually works out to about two runs a year.

[morme@gte.net]

Lee won't run them until they have enough of an order to make it worth their while. Midsouth won't place an order until they have enough backprders to justify it. Usually works out to about two runs a year.

Not so. I talked to Midsouth several months ago, before I started the .277 group buy. I was trying to talk them into adding the .277 moulds to their "special order moulds" list. At that time, they had 80 bator moulds on order from Lee. Midsouth does not wait for orders before ordering from Lee, any more than they wait for orders for anything else.

I have no Idea why it is taking Lee a long time to fill the order.

[BCall]

I have no Idea why it is taking Lee a long time to fill the order.

My guess would be that they had too many complaints from the last run and are either trying to correct it, or ignoring it hoping it will go away.

[morme@gte.net]

My guess would be that they had too many complaints from the last run and are either trying to correct it, or ignoring it hoping it will go away.

I doubt the "hope it goes away" attitude would affect an 80 piece order with Midsouth. One possibility (just guessing of course) is that they had a hundred back orders and the last order was not enough for everyone.

BUT, I would bet that your first guess is right. They are remaking the tooling.

I think from my conversations with Pat at Lee that they use cherries. I know they changed over the years. IIRC, they first used cherries, switched to lathe, and are back to cherries. (or I have it mixed up, and it went lathe, cherry, lathe) Someone other than me should call them to ask.

IF they use cherries, I wonder how the dims are off for the last batch. They probably use lathe for custom moulds as all it requires is programing rather than making a cherry. Just a SWAG though.

[johnly]

How long ago?

Pushing three months.....

I spoke to Pat a couple of weeks ago, and he was surprised that a replacement had not arrived. I guess I'll just keep on casting with the 2 cavity until the new mold arrives.

John

[DCP]

GOOD NEWS (I think):awesome:

UPS delivered 2-6 cavities 5/11/11 from Lee

I now have 2-6 cavities and 4-2 cavities. I will keep 1 of each and sell or trade the rest[smilie=w:

[Moonie]

dcp, how are the dimensions? Specifically heel and nose.

[DCP]

Well for now they are just setting in the boxes.
It is much better for my blood pressure. The wife, kids and the dogs.

I can not figure out what Lee has been thinking. Someone has dropped the ball.
They let all those bad molds get out. Someone knew they were bad [smilie=1:




dcp, how are the dimensions? Specifically heel and nose.

[morme@gte.net]

Most people are probably like me. They don't care. They shoot just fine. I will post a pic of what I got to compare with what others have received.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have 3 2 cavities sitting in a box that is unopened. I had return them to Lee because they were defected. Still waiting on the 2 6 cavities that were bad. I bought them to make money on e-bay (LOL)


sellin' boolits ?
or sellin' the molds ?

was that the original plan or just a joke ?

[DCP]

I have over 200 buys on e-bay and 1 sell a bator mold :Bright idea:


I stopped because of all the problems. :dung_hits_fan:

So to answer your ?s, it is yes to both :2 drunk buddies:




sellin' boolits ?
or sellin' the molds ?

was that the original plan or just a joke ?

[koehlerrk]

I called Midsouth earlier this week, and my mold is still on backorder. Mind you, the shipment from Lee was supposed to arrive at the warehouse 4/25 and it still hasn't shown up. The nice lady I spoke with stated that since Lee hasn't sent them a revised ship date, they really don't know when the molds will arrive. Might be tomorrow, might be in a month.

So, I'm still in a holding pattern. Not a huge problem right now, so I'm not real worried about it.

[Thecyberguy]

Got mine last fall. I waited 6 months for mine.Apparently I was far enough down on the list that I waited for 2 shipments.I have not cast with mine, or even checked it out to see if it is as designed...guess I should.
TCG

[DCP]

Welcome to the club. :drinks:

Most likely its the new coke one. [smilie=b:
That's when I got mine



Got mine last fall. I waited 6 months for mine.Apparently I was far enough down on the list that I waited for 2 shipments.I have not cast with mine, or even checked it out to see if it is as designed...guess I should.
TCG

[Thecyberguy]

So, is Lee taking them back if you have cast with them?
TCG

[DCP]

Yes

You can also make some Glue Boolits



So, is Lee taking them back if you have cast with them?
TCG

[koehlerrk]

Well, got my new molds tonight. Can't find the camera, but let's say that they are beautiful!

Yes, I waited a month for these to show up, and I think it was worth the wait. The 22 Bator mold looks exactly like it should, and is one of the best finished Lee molds I've ever seen. Very smooth, everything fits tight, not sloppy, but no sticking, and I haven't lubed it yet.

Can't wait to see how it does casting, maybe this weekend, but it looks like Lee fixed the problem!!!!!

[Moonie]

How do the dimensions compare to the drawing? Please let us know, heck I'll order a new 6 cav if it is correct.

[koehlerrk]

Moonie, I'd love to give you numbers... Unfortunately, some idiot (read me) knocked my digital calipers off the bench. Word of advice... Don't do that, because it scrambles it's little electronic brain. Can't find my verniers for the past three years, so I'll have to get another set before I can measure them, sorry.

Next set will be dial calipers... No batteries, no electronics, just good old fashioned gears.

[Moonie]

lol, I understand, your killing me...

[smilie=b::kidding:

[koehlerrk]

Well, it was said that if you could take the guy most responsible for your troubles and kick him in the pants that you wouldn't be able to sit down for a week.

In my case, I knew I shoulda put the calipers back in the case. But, I got in a hurry, and just set them on the bench. A couple grabs later, down they go... and concrete floors are not forgiving.

Good news is, I should have a chance to cast some with it this weekend. Post and pics will follow if I get to it.

[koehlerrk]

Well, gave the 22 Bator a try-out last night. Long story short, it works very well. Bullets fall out of it as soon as I open it. This is about the most trouble-free Lee mold I've ever seen. I am impressed.

Getting the kids ready for a parade right now, but if I can find the camera, I'll post pics when we get back.

[0verkill]

I got mine and a 6.5 mould from Midsouth Saturday. I worked all weekend but when I get a chance to cast a few I'll let everyone know how they turn out. They both look great and I've never had any problems with any of my LEE moulds so I don't expect any with the Bator.

[0verkill]

I finally got around to casting with the Bator. I worried about it because I've heard of problems with them and 22 caliber moulds in general. I had a total of 4 moulds in use tonight. The first two were MIHEC's, a used 45 200gr HP and a 9mm 125gr I bought a couple months ago. I usually run the brass moulds a little hotter than aluminum and left the 22 by the pot while working with the 2 MIHEC's. After finishing with the 45 I kept running the 9mm and switched to using 22. ( I needed more bullets forthe 38 super than anything so I ran 2 moulds at a time, always running the 9mm mould).

The bullets fell out of the 22 Bator mould when I opened it. After cooling I had one cull, the others were really nice and shiny and well formed. I picked a couple and they only run 48 to 49 grains (on my crappy electric scale) without lube or a gas check.
Overall length was .502,
gas check shank measured .211 in diameter and .068 long,
nose measures .222 in diameter by about .201 long (it was harder to measure length as I measred from the top of the lube groove),
driving bands measure .228 in diameter by .070 long,
grease grooves measure .206 by .047
meplat was about .126.

I also used the 6.5 Swede that I got from Midsouth at the same time. I had trouble with fillout at first but I think I had gotten sprue plate lube in the cavity. I cleaned it again and got better fillout but still had problems with bullets sticking in the cavities. I'll check it for burs or defects. Never had a LEE stick like this.

[Christorbust]

I just ordered the last 6 hole Lee Bator mold from Midsouth today, at the beginning of this thread I was biting my nails hoping I got a good one. But as I read through the six pages and watched the dates, last Bators (properly formed) received early June, I'm assuming mine is from the same batch...hooray!

I was thinking of trying some Acc 5744 with it since it would also go with my 30-30. Anyone try that with the lil 22 Bator?

Or have something that they really like?

I'll be trying to feed a hungry 1/12 twist AR, hopefully semi-auto eventually.

[0verkill]

I don't know if it will function in ARs/semis, but 5744 gives some of the best accuracy with them in my Stevens 200. I hope you get a good mould, it seems like it can be hit or miss with the MidSouth semi custom moulds.

[Moonie]

Christorbust, please note my H4895 (18gr) load in this thread, it does function the action in my Midlength 1-9" AR.

[Christorbust]

Looks like 5744 is in my future then, might be hard to function the action with it though.

Moonie was that load with the Bator? I couldn't find the post, must be this late hour getting to me... no more reading about AR's tonight! :veryconfu

[Moonie]

That was with the Bator, and the post was earlier in this thread.

[Christorbust]

My Bator came in and the dimensions seem correct, it doesn't seem to have the problems earlier stated in this thread...

[Christorbust]

I created some loads today with the bator for the AR15's. With 5744 I got the bolts to function and lock open on the last round, I haven't tested for accuracy yet as it was pouring today.

I did however test the bator boolit designs impact against a j-word bullet. In an incredibly scientific and controlled experiment I used two vessels of equal size, density and color, pop cans filled with water! I shot them both with the same amount of 5744, one with a j-word bullet and one with the bator boolit. The difference, besides about 800% in price, is in the pictures. I was shocked at the difference. I had the cans on top of other cans, the force was so dramatic the bator's stand can was partially crushed.

[Christorbust]

I really thought those pictures would get more of a response, I guess since I'm new to casting I just underestimated the potential of that bullet shape.

I'm still impressed! :mrgreen:

[JIMinPHX]

Have you chronographed that load?

[Christorbust]

I have not, it was 15.4 5744 off the top of my head, without checking the log.

I do not own a chrono

[JIMinPHX]

From what I see published in Speer #13, I'm going to guess that your load should put you somewhere around 2,300-2400fps. You are probably getting close to the top end of how fast you would want to push lead, at least for best accuracy. Some people manage to push it up a little higher than that, but if you want to go down that road, then everything you do needs to be about perfect.

Just out of curiosity, how was your accuracy with that load under the Bator? You certainly got plenty of punch behind that little flat nosed pill. If your accuracy is good, then I'd say that you have come up with quite the winning combination.

[Christorbust]

I didn't get a chance to test it. It was almost dark at that point, and I couldn't resist testing a few for function.


When I do get to it I will post it, but I won't be home around those rifles for a month or so.

[0verkill]

Just remember, a single set of data is not very scientific - you need to test several more pop cans!

[JIMinPHX]

.22 centerfires tend to be rather picky about details. Minor defects, that would hardly cause any problem at all on a .30 cal boolit, can cause noticeable accuracy issues in the little .22s. The small calibers seem to be especially sensitive to figuring out the best boolit seating depth. With the .22s, I usually start around 2,000fps & try for accuracy first, then up the speed a little at a time until I find that I am pushing my luck.

If you want to get into that caliber in detail, then you might want to look up the 3-part series on cast in the .223 that Beagle wrote up over on the cast pics section of the board. Its a long read, but it provides a huge amount of very useful information.

I like loading for the .223. It's an inexpensive little cartridge that is very versatile & quite useful in a lot of situations. A single pound of casting metal will provide you with quite the little handful of boolits in that size.

[Christorbust]

I checked out that Beagle link, great info. I may read it again sometime.

Reloading/casting is new to me, so if I can get the .223 accurate your saying everything else will be a walk in the park right ;-)

I agree, nothing like producing 100's of bullets and still having a full pot O'lead!

Thanks for the tips.

[GT27]

Any more updates on the Lee 22 Bator,last post was 9/14/11??? I'm interested in hearing and seeing any negative or positive on this little money saving pill! GT27

[xacex]

I picked up a 6'R about three months ago. It is fine. No issues other than it is a pain in the *** to put gas check on these little pills. I am going to use it to cast pure lead pills to use for soft point boolits. As long as I use them right away they should work fine for a 60 grain tip.

[Christorbust]

I have no problems with mine, as stated earlier. I recently just got a sizer and had no problems putting lith plate checks on with it. I don't know if my mold is any different from xacex's.

I will hopefully be loading some in the AR's in the next couple of weeks (I'm in the middle of moving) and will try to get data here when possible. Sorry I don't have any actual data at the moment.

[GT27]

You guys show some of your favorite loads(accuracy and full function) with these please,as some here have been through the learning curve with "Ballistic Nirvana" with these,and will save some noobs like me a lot of grief! GT27

[Moonie]

16gr H4895 works the action in my sons 16" midlength gas AR with this boolit.

[xacex]

I tried 19 gr of h4895, but it still wouldn't cycle a dissipator with a rifle length gas system. The only problem besides that was how small the gas checks are. It is hard for me to put em on with my fat fingers, and bad eyes. It was easy to put the checks on crooked killing accuracy.
That same load worked fine in a friends carbine length gas system.
xacex

[fcvan]

I'm not running the bator mold, but am considering it. The Lyman 225415 makes a dandy 55gr boolit and I have had great luck running 14 grains of 4227 through my Mini 14. The load is from my Lyman manual and it lists 23320 CUP at 2250 FPS. The report of the rifle is surely reduced but the effect on tin cans (compared to 55grFMJ) is nothing short of fantastic. I want to try the stacked soda can test, that was neat!. Frank

[filthygovmploye]

necro thread... so did anyone get any good accuracy results wit these?

price is right!! and christor busts cans look great!!!:shock:

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

necro thread... so did anyone get any good accuracy results wit these?

price is right!! and christor busts cans look great!!!:shock:

??? HUH ???

while I have OK accuracy in a hornet, I do have concern replying to a member with an ID like yours :)

[filthygovmploye]

christorbust posted results of shooting cans... of water...

they are listenng to everyting no matter what my username says:awesome: