the patched roundball

[bigted]

ok i know this has been batted around and around:roll:. but here is where i wonder if someone has gone where ive been thinking about with a straight walled case like my 45-70 in my hiwall.

here is my idea and im willing to put my money where my crazed thoughts live as ive ordered different size round ball moulds for my own experiment with this. i want to shoot a patched round ball thru my hiwall that has the patch lubed and the ball slightly undersized...muzzleloader style only inside a 45-70 case.

the lubed patch should keep the bore lead free as it does in my m/l'ers. the patch should also allow me to run these round balls at a slightly higher velocity. and if this is anything like my m/l'ers it will group inside an inch at 25 yds.

i know that the twist is a bunch faster in the hiwall...18 to 1...as opossed to my lyman with its 60 to 1 twist rate. i fooled around with an inline ml er with this fast turn rate and as long as i used the load that agreed with it it would also keep em tight in a group at the 25 or so yards.

if someone has fooled around with this...chime in and share your results and loads you tryed...if nobody has ... then later when the ball moulds come in...ill report my results here. i been tossing this thought around for awhile and as far as i know i havnt read about anybody doing this or at least admitting to it...lol:Fire:

ill apreciate any feedback on these roundball loads loaded rite down on the powder...[smokeless or black]... wrapped in a lubed patch inside the case. maybe im just crazed...well i recon everybody has already considered this tho huh???:coffeecom

[Tracy]

I'm not usually a naysayer, but I have a couple of thoughts about this, both negative. Sorry. First, the purpose of the patch in muzzleloaders was to make loading faster and easier, especially with a fouled bore. A tight-fitting ball was heavier and shot better because of the better bore fit, but it took a lot of work to drive it down the bore.
Second, I think the higher pressure of smokeless powder would obturate the ball into the grooves, thereby cutting the patch and negating its effect.
RB moulds for the Ruger Old Army are .457 nominal when cast of pure lead, and larger if cast of WW or other alloy. I think you will have better luck with some of those, tumble lubed. Those are just my thoughts, though. If you decide to try it anyway, I would be interested in reading about the results.

[wgr]

if your loading the patched ball into the case how will you keep the patch on the ball when shot. what im saying is you will have alot of bullet jump and i would say the patch will leave the ball when it hits the lands

[bigted]

i wouldnt be running it down the barrel as it would be already loaded inside the case. also as to obturation...i regularly shoot 80 gr 2f black with no problems and those patchs arnt cut nor blown from the ml'er. as for the ball jump from the case mouth to rifling...havnt done it yet but cant see where the distance is great enough to shed the patch...another reasson im using my hiwall so as to be able to easy see down bore for obstructions,,, like a shed patch.

it may not work but nuttin ventured...nuttin gained. what if the crazy thing will shoot 1 raged hole at 50 yds like my ml'er? what a super rabbit/fox load and should be quiet as well.

i know and have read of others that use the roundball at 457 diameter loaded so the equater of the ball is just at the case mouth then crimp litely and they are suppose to be accurat to 25 or so yds but i cant get past the very cavernous empty space inside the 45-70 case when so loaded. seems like the "ringing" should be possible with such a load as opposed to the "patched" ball down on the powder charge would solve this and should lead to greater accuracy...accept for the formentioned "jump" to the lands where it just might skip before it starts turning with the rifling...

should be a fun experiment tho. cant wait for those moulds to get here ,,,im anxious to be started in this experiment. just posted here to find out if somebody else has covered any ground with this before i get started is all. the replys so far are thought provoking and i gladly accept any and all suggestions and thoughts on this as i find i never think of all the angle before embarking on such a "pipe dream"...so keep em coming as i gladly read em all two or three times over so as to not miss anything

[montana_charlie]

Speculating here...
- The 18 twist is certainly faster than needed for a round ball, but that shouldn't hurt anything if the patch can take the strain.
- A 60 grain BP charge seems like a good starting point. That might put the ball down in the case just to the point where the inner diameter of the case starts to decrease as the wall thickens.
- I think I would be tempted to put a veggie wad on top of the powder before seating the ball. Why? I dunno for sure...just because, I guess.

CM

[NickSS]

I have shot many hundreds of RB in a 45-70 and 38-55 with great sucess using the Army's methode of pushing the ball all the way down on top of the powder charge. I never have had a problem due to first no air space between the ball and powder and second due to the light charges used (5 to 15 gr of FFFG or 5 to 10 gr of Red Dot. Accuracy has been excellent is several different rifles with this combination. However, I would be interested in your results when you try it so please post them so that I can evaluate if it works or not. I have a 440 RB mold that I use for my wife and daughter's 45 cal ML pistols so I could try what you are proposing but do not have the time right now. I have ML a patched round ball down the barrel of a trapdoor springfield and breach loaded a case full of powder behind it with a card wad over the powder to hold it in place. The results were a lot of fun but accuracy was not very good. I think it was because I was trying to drive the ball too fast for the fast rifling to work well. I got like 4 inch groups at 50 yards when I did this.

[405]

Never tried it but no reason it wouldn't work in some fashion. The only thing I could think of, like others, is that accuracy may be iffy at the higher pressures, velocities with that fast twist. I'd be tempted to try a light charge of a powder like 5744. Or just put some BP in the case, add a felt wad and snug the patched ball on top. I don't think the patch would strip off. Both ball and patch will be under full pressure well along the ride thru the bore. The only thing that might happen to the patch in the throat is it could get nicked some.... kinda like what happens with paper patched bullets where a paper ring is nipped off in the case mouth or throat. But, a tight weave cotton patch is much, much tougher than paper. Interesting to see what happens.

[DIRT Farmer]

1/18 is a standard twist for a M/L pistol. Light loads worked about the same as a grouve dimiater ball crimped at the case mouth with Green dot loads. I did not want to leave an air space with BP so I ran them down with 20 grns of fffg. I did kill a few squrriels with my Trap door though it was a long time ago. .440 and 0.020 patch should work.

[camerl2009]

the patch is not going to stay on the ball

just cast a ball the same size as your bullets
if you cant find one to fit these molds are good i got one in .470 for my martini henry http://ballmoulds.co.uk/

[405]

Question. If a very tough, tight weave cloth patch can't stay on a roundball as it travels from the case, thru the throat/leade, down the barrel and finally out the muzzle how can a very thin, frail paper patch stay on a bullet traveling the same path?

[onondaga]

Trail Boss might be a powder to consider also.

Soon as I began your post, I had a mental picture of something that might be doable. After charging the case, Flair the case mouth as much as you dare. Put the patch around the ball but stuff the skirted area of the patch in the case first. The skirt of the patch would be toward the powder. It would not slip off that way because the ball would be pushing into the patch. You could remove the flair with a separate sizing die with the de-prime pin removed. A dry patch lube like powdered mica would be nice and inert to the powder and might help protect the patch.

The operation for keeping the patch snug when seating the ball in the case mouth with the patch skirt to go down in easily toward the powder first would be simple with a short piece of 1/2 inch inside diameter clear vinyl tubing. Patch the ball and push it into the tube like you fill a quick load tube for muzzle loading . Push it back out backwards, skirt down into your case. You will be able to get the patch skirt past a flared case mouth.

I may try this in my .500 S&W Mag Handi-rifle, I don't have a 45/70

Gary

[405]

bigted, re: patched RB in cartridge

At -20 and 2 1/2 ft of fresh snow I had to fiddle with something. I loaded one (45-70) to see how it would shoot. Not so much for a 5 shot accuracy string but with the snow cover I can easily find a single patch and will check where the POI is on target compared to a regular 420 GG BP load. Most importantly see how the patch behaves.

The load is:
60 gr FFg Goex mild compression
1/8" felt wad dry
.7" pillow ticking patch dry
.440" soft RB
Patched ball seated to just below equator then case run into sizer to apply light taper crimp.

Should be a fair test for patch integrity. Will shoot it thru a Shiloh Sharps with 18" twist.
With too much snow might be a few days before testing.

[bigted]

very cool and im really anxious to get my rb moulds now. hadnt thought about loading em with the patch cupped the backwards way...something to consider. that case with the patched rb looks rite and pls do report how she works when you shoot it. im interested in what the patch looks like as with a ml'er that tells the storie and will get you down the accuracy road with a patch that holds its integrity. with a .451 and a 10th patch lubed with borebutter is where im gonna start. i have a .454 ball mould coming as well as a .457 ball mould. with the price of lee rb moulds i cant go wrong with the purchases

thanks for the interest in this. i wondered if yall would think id slipped a cog with a cloth patched rb in a 45-70...well if im slippin then im in good company...thanks again. soon as the dog team gets here from the lower 48 ill join with the experiments.

[excess650]

I don't think it will work . PRBs work in the MLer because the ball and patch are seated in the rifling. I fully expect your patch to be shed as the ball makes the transition from the case mouth into the leade. Expect accuracy to be poor.

A better bet with a RB would be to take an oversize ball and run it through a .460" sizer die to make an elongated ball. Lube with LLA, and load over very light charges of fast burning smokeless. Better yet would be to use a short, grooved bullet designed for the very task you're trying to accomplish. There were "collar button" molds and short conicals for this purpose. You might also consider paper patching some 45cal pistol boolits, but its more work. The 37583 is a "gallery bullet" for the 38-55. 457130 144gr was the collar button and 457127 210gr a short conical listed in an old (1955) Ideal Handbook.

Search for catsneeze loads, mouse fart loads, ultra light loadts, etc. I've shot them from the 32-20, 30-30, 7.5x55, and 38-55. I found that the 30-30 and 7.5x55 point of impact could be regulated by changing powder charge until shot close enough at 50 yards to swap between normal cast and ultralight loads.

[405]

Yep, the bare roundball cartridge load has been around a long time. Saw a factory box of them a while back but can't remember the details other than they were handgun loads. If I were loading one (I think it has been discussed here several times) for the 45-70 I'd just take a 460 ball and seat into a case on top of a well lubed felt wad over BP. Then run the loaded round just far enough into a case sizer die to taper crimp it and so it would chamber easily. That would be easier and do the same thing as running the roundball thru a bullet sizer first then seating into the case. Without a supply of lube.... no grease grooves.... I'm pretty sure that it would shoot two or three times pretty well then start leading and who knows about accuracy from then on. From what I understand the really light RB cartridges loads do OK... to a point. I've shot C&B revovlers enough to know the limitations of the bare roundball with a light BP charge and a very short barrel. Heavier charges pushing a similar bare, unlubed RB thru a 30"+ rifle barrel is a different critter me thinks.

[NickSS]

405 I really am interested in your experimental load I have fired hudreds of RB loads from my 45-70 as gallery loads. I have loaded 5 to 15 gr of FFG with a ball lubed with LLA down on the powder (.457 ball) and have also loaded them the same way using 5 to 10 gr of red Dot. I got good accuracy with all those loads and at ranges between 15 and 50 yards it is easy to hip soda cans and small game like rabits and racoon. I never sized my brass and mostly used brass that had a crack in the mouth of the case so were discards. They worked fine for this purpose.

[405]

Well, now I've got myself interested from an experimental standpoint. I'm not sure what to expect but would think that if the twist in my 45-70 were in the RB range of maybe 66" it wouldn't surprise me to get decent accuracy. Will just have to see what the 18" twist does. So I went ahead and loaded 3 more rounds with a more convenient technique and slightly different load. Since I'll be cleaning a BP gun and cases... might as well get more bang for the buck. The single round loaded with 60gr FFg will test the patch. These 3 will test the patch and may indicate potential accuracy.

Here's the load for 3 I'll shoot seriously at a target in addition to inspecting the patches. Pic below

53gr Goex FFg light compression
1/8" felt wad lubed w/ thick minie lube (so no migration)
.015" ticking lubed with minie lube and cut after seating
.440 soft RB
Patched RB seated to just below case mouth then patch trimmed
Loaded rounds lightly run into sizer die to take bell out and taper crimp

Oh, and yes I report the results whatever they turn out to be :)

[nanuk]

is there any way that the bunch of patch ahead of the ball could cause a bore obstruction issue? Like too much oil or grease, where the ball would have to ride over the patching material?

Just thinking out loud....

[bigted]

this is getting interesting fast. i origanally was going to use a .451 ball with a .10 lubed patch and hope that the obturation would fill out the lands and grooves nicely without cutting the patch. im very interested in the .440 ball with a .15 lubed patch. it should "bump up" to fill out also id think...just didnt think about the .440 as my c&b revolver is another smaller cal. should work tho.

[rhbrink]

Sure wish someone would pull the trigger on one of these, the suspense is killing me!

[1Shirt]

Guess my question is why go to the trouble? Have shot 1,2, and 3 roundballs in 54-70 and 444 and they are fun loads with just slightly undersized balls coated w/lee mule snot. Have shot a lot of roundball in front stuffers and liked doing it. I also will be interested in your results even if to me the question will remain why?
1Shirt!:coffee:

[405]

Sure wish someone would pull the trigger on one of these, the suspense is killing me!

As to why? I'll just blame bigted :kidding:
I'll shoot them thru an expensive Shiloh- not really worried about dangersous load with the BP- but it's a known, very accurate gun with the same twist as bigted's so should give a reasonably comparable "test". I could just fire the single "patch test" load out the back door but... I'll do it as soon as conditions allow a fair accuracy test of the 3 on target, I hope tomorrow or Tuesday?

[excess650]

Question. If a very tough, tight weave cloth patch can't stay on a roundball as it travels from the case, thru the throat/leade, down the barrel and finally out the muzzle how can a very thin, frail paper patch stay on a bullet traveling the same path?

A PP is typically high cotton fiber content paper wrapped twice around the periphery of the bullet. They are applied damp, and shrink to a tight fit when dry. Couple this with the fact they are applied OVER a TAPERED ogive and seated out well INTO the rifling, they are not apt to be damaged in the leade.

To take this further, the PP can be applied so as to be "unwrapped" by the rifling, or tightened by the rifling. By using a bullet just over bore diameter, the lands effectively slice through the patch. There are those whose PP are undersize and dependent upon BP to bump it up to engage the rifling. In either case, with BP at least, a grease cookie sandwiched between a couple of card wads is placed between the powder and bullet, and effectively becomes a gas check.

I've shot .452" 250gr LBT WFN PPed from my Marlin 45-70, and they worked fine. With smokeless there is no need for the grease cookie. The "paper jacket" can allow you to exceed normal plainbase velocities without leading. Unfortunately, most modern paper is abrasive because of its clay content. Too, they're labor intensive, so a proper diameter grooved bullet is a simpler solution.

[KCSO]

Won't work well, I tried it. The twist is too fast for heavy loads and any decent accuracy and the patches tent to strip and tear. For a light load just put a dab of grease over a 457 ball seated in the case mouth, no patch required.

[405]

"Inquiring minds want to know" :)

Had a window of opportunity this morning with no wind.
Temp 15 below

Target set at 50 yds

Cleaned between all shots with Ballistol and water.

1st shot was a reference point for POI for the RB loads. It was my standard 420 gr BP GG load.

I recovered all the patches in the normal area 20-30ft in front of muzzle. Small pieces of the felt wads were scattered between muzzle and patches.

Nothing unusual with sound or recoil.

The 420gr GG reference shot is noted on the target.

The next shot was the 60gr FFg with the very small diameter patch where the ball's equator was seated just below the case mouth- no lube on felt was or patch.... the patch proving load.

The next three shots were the 53gr FFg load with the ball seated just below the case mouth and the excess patch material trimmed.... the felt wad and patch were lubed. This was the accuracy test group and the group size was 3.5" at 50 yards.

None of the shots went wild. I do not believe the patches stripped off at the throat. I would guess the MVs were on par with regular ML velocities. About 1400fps for the 53 gr load and about 1600fps for the 60 gr load. The 53gr load showed center of group just a tad higher than the others as expected.

Accuracy was about as expected with the fast twist. The 60 gr load where the ball's equator was seated just under mouth was a real pain to load . The 53 grain load with the ball seated fully in the case, then the patch trimmed was much easier and would do in a pinch.

Can these things be fine tuned for better accuracy?- I'd bet on it. Still, my regular RB muzzleloaders will outshoot these 45-70 RB loads by far. Fun and interesing test. C-O-L-D though :shock:

[Reverend Recoil]

I would think it would be easier to get good results from paper patching 0.454 revolver or 0.451 pistol bullets than a patched round ball. A lubricated 0.457 ball of harder lead may work at low speed.

Don't anyone get discouraged. I enjoy shooting 0.451 round balls from my 45 ACP revolver. They will feed and cycle some 45 auto pistols. At 800 fps they shoot well with very low recoil. They also make 45 caliber holes in whatever they hit.

[montana_charlie]

None of the shots went wild. I do not believe the patches stripped off at the throat.
The three unfrayed patches all show signs of being imprinted by the rifling. So, I (too) think they rode the ball to the muzzle.

CM

[405]

Ya, even the small ragged one from the 1st 60gr FFg trial I'm sure was around the ball to the muzzle. That shot was right in the POI group. It started as about a half patch, tiny really, barely stretched over the hemisphere of the .440 ball. Doesn't show well in photo but does show signs of engaging the lands around it's perimeter. If it had stripped off I don't think the ball would have gone into the group. Plus I don't think that patch would have gone out into the "patch drop zone" with the other patches if it had been stripped off at the throat. It did have a rough ride though.

[rhbrink]

Well I'll be danged! Thanks 405 I would have bet that it would not have worked. Looks like to me the patch rode it all the way out the barrel. I thought the patch would strip in the throat and the ball would go skipping on down the barrel. The accuracy was way better than expected too, guess we all learned something here.

[KCSO]

Actually you got better accuracy than I did with my Gibb's rifle. Most of my patches looked like the top center one.

[bigted]

very cool 405. im very impressed with the findings and as glad to see/hear that those ball huggin patchs rode the bore all the way out. im bettin that that accuracy can be improved a bit as well and now the ordered moulds will never get here in a timely manner.

thanks for taking the bull by the horn here and please do follow up with any following experiments. im rite on yer heels when my moulds get here.

[405]

bigted, :mrgreen::mrgreen:

Here goes another! Back in the early 80s I played around with those plastic, double-ended sabots for roundballs for muzzleloaders. I tried a few in my MLs but still got better results with the cloth patch. I think I tossed them or gave them away. Just wondering if you put a roundball in one and seated it in the case??.... if nothing else, would be whole lot easier to load than the patched RB in a case. Just wondering :):)

[rhbrink]

405, when this thread first started that was my first thought but haven't seen any of those in years. I remember that they were a hot item until everybody found out that they didn't work for $hit. I think that hornady is making something new along those lines but haven't paid much attention to that kind of stuff just another gimmic for us to spend money on.

I would think that like bigted says that a bit of tweaking the groups could be improved on if a guy felt the need. The biggest thing that I see is you could get more velocity without any leading and if you can get enough accuracy it would make good small game load and plinker.

After the winter coyote season I'll put my 45-70 barrel back on my TC Encore and may just give it try just to see what can be done.

Thanks for the report,
Richard

[NickSS]

Actually I get better accuracy with a RB of .457 diameter pushed down on top os 15 gr of FFFG with ball lubed with LLA. I get around a 2 inch or under group at 50 yards. In addition they have enough poop to kill rabbits and raccoons at that range as I have used them for that purpose.

[bigted]

hadnt thought about the sabots 405...thanks for the "nother" brainteaser. i have a bunch of these lil rascals but they are in 54cal so wont work in 45 as the dia is just too big. i do however have a bag of 12 gauge felt wads lubed with ??? that i will punch down to 45 cal when my moulds get here but i may hafta just go down and buy some 440's and give this a twirl in the meantime.

and yes everybody can put this experiment idea on my head as my fevered ol-timer mind came up with the origanal post here but as everyone knows...if you are covered up with stuff on your plate....then is the time ya get these clever ideas to try...i just shifted it onto some other fevered minds that have jumped in ahead of me is all.......thanks again for forging ahead with this...tis grand to say the least.

[bigted]

well looked around and found these .454 balls that have been here for a coons age. so i loaded em up with 25, 35, 45, 55, and 65 grains of 2f blackpowder. i wrapped them in a .010 lubed patch and just flaired the mouth of my rem cases enough to start these tight little missles. i primed them with fed large pistol primers. i also wiped down the barrel with 1 patch glistening with bore butter between shots. the range is 25 yards and the rifle is a winchester 1885 hiwall [moruko man].

the weather got up to 30 above and i got out to shoot these before any wind could come up. not that wind will affect at 25 yards but i wanted to give em every chance i could. im very impressed with these loads.

there are a couple...the 25 gr loads and the 45 gr loads that run close to one raged hole for 4 shots. the 65 gr loads would be just fine for deer i bet if some small fussing around with them to wring out the best accuracy and the yardage was kept to 75 or so yards..

so here are the goods in photos.

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/roundballshots003.jpg

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/roundballshots001.jpg

im hoping that these picts of the paper plates come thru...they really impressed me except for the fussing around with the balls n patches but for a quiet load that will deliver the goods...they should bump any rabit/squirel in a hurry.:bigsmyl2:

[montana_charlie]

I would have liked to see some recovered patches...

[bigted]

charlie...the patches were almost all blown from the rear. the smaller loads...25 to 45 gr loads hung together but the rear cup...rite on the ball was blown. the rifling marks were on all patches but the rear cup area was gone on most from 45gr up. didnt think to show em as the accuracy blew my mind with a couple loads. i know 25 yds is not too far but rabbits n such wont know when theyr turnin on my spit for a quick lunch. i will load those 25 and 45gr loads again when the weather clears and go try em at 50 yds just to see if they open up like 405's did. i didnt even put a overpowder patch in these...just powder with the patched ball rite down on the powder. the 25gr loads were kinda snugg loading into the hiwall and i think this is was becouse i loaded em down far enough to get into the web of the cases so i had a small bulge to overcome in the very nice chamber of this rifle. looks wise i liked the 65gr loads as you can see the patched ball in the mouth of the case but this slightly compressed load did not do as well as the smaller gr loadings.

as soon as i get the .451 ball moulds im gonna do this again and see if they perform as good as the .454 balls did. im wondering if the .454 balls didnt start the tearing in the rear cup becouse they were just too tight loading in the case. if so then the .451's should take care of this problem.

anyone else tryed these little buggers yet?

[excess650]

bigted,
I don't know what you're using for patches, but you'll want it to pretty tough stuff. We generally use pillow ticking (.018") in our PRB MLers, but have experimented with various thicknesses of denim and duck cloth. Some denim is .030" thick and the duck cloth that we use is .023-.025". With the proper diameter ball it NEVER tears or burns through, and can actually be used several times. We've done it! PRB MLers generally have pretty deep rifling, and cotton compresses easier than lead, so loading is easier with a thicker patch and smaller diameter ball.

You'll want a lube on that patch that doesn't allow the patch to be burned, and doesn't contaminate the powder. While that seems like a tall order, in your case it should be easy. Use a greasy patch lube towards the powder, but put a layer of Cream of Wheat or some such on top of the powder to prevent contamination.

[bigted]

cool. im waiting for the moulds still. i just had to have a go with the .454 balls...kinda knew they would be too large but you know...had to do it anyway. accuracy was great but i still dont think i have the whole answer and tougher patch's very well may put me on track with the smaller balls and if the .451 isnt small enough then ill have a go with the .440's and these i will just buy at the store till i get a load that is there. there is a combo of patch's n ball that is gonna be just rite and its just a matter of witchin it out. dont even know why its so important to do this with a patch as the whole ball shooting has already been done but there you have it...a mystery that deserves to be solved.

[405]

bigted,
Good deal! Makes sense to me the oversized RBs with the thin patches would shoot pretty well. Been shooting MLs with patched roundballs and BP a long time and many times I've found that the larger RBs with the thinner patches out shoot the normal undersized with thicker patches. The tight twist for patched RB probably takes it's toll on the patch so the tighter the better and larger the ball the better.... to a point. Also, the patches with the burned/blown out centers is not uncommon. Something like a felt overpowder wad will likely help but may not be 100% necesary as long as the sides surrounding the ball don't blow out or through.

As far as BP in the Ruger #1 45-70 with the 20" twist.... absolutely. According to Matthews, who did a lot of early (modern) work reviving the interest in BP paper patch shooting, the short throats and leades in the Rugers had to be considered when figuring the best bullet designs. I think if everything is working right and the bullet takes FULL spin from the get go, doesn't skid or get distorted during its trip down the bore and exists the muzzle cleanly... no reason a bullet up to 500gr won't work.

[Canuck Bob]

Round ball loads in cartridges is common enough so a patched ball should be no difference. The only problem i can envision is keeping the patch with the ball as it rubs in the case and into the leade. I really don't see it as a problem.

I'm getting ready to load my Lyman Deerstalker with round balls with a double wrap of paaper with twisted ends like a tootsie roll candy. Probably use water thinned Ballistol to soak the paper before rolling. Recycled paper is everywhere and fabric patches aren't. Your idea is not any crazier a scheme than shooting a left hand flintlock with .54 caliber balls in the 21st century, she ain't no 5.56!

Even the most die hard black rifle fanatic with electronic sights and flashlights mounted on his rifle and wearing tactical underwear begs to try out a flinter when they see that flash and all the smoke!