Winchester (Miroku) 1885 38-55 Load?

[wsjones]

Hey! First post here so please let me know if it's better posted in one of the other forums.

I just ordered one of the Davidson's 'short hunter' 38-55's and am in the process of ordering dies, brass (starline 2.125"), boolits, etc. I reload but don't cast boolits and this is the first rifle except a pump 45 LC that I expect to shoot cb's.

I'm looking for more or less a single load with which to hunt deer and plink, 255-275 gr or so at ~1700-1800 fps, using smokeless powder, most likely 4895 or RL-7.

Is a gas check bullet of 0.379-380 a good place to start? Midway has 'cast performance' brand 260 gr, 380 diameter, GC bullets.

Thoughts? Recommendations? Other sources for commercial cast bollits? Thanks. WSJ

[Old Goat Keeper]

First off you need to "slug" your barrel cause the 38-55 comes sized all over the place. After sizing get you boolits that are .001 to .002 over groove diameter. RL-7 is the go to powder for medium to hot loads in the 38-55 but Unique will give you nice 1400 fps loads for plinking and deer hunting. Use you a boolit weighting from 245 grains to 260 grains. Oh and your 1700 to 1800 fps load is pushing the 38-55 near max. Look at Beartooth Bullets for other boolit options.

Tom

[405]

The 38-55 in a quality single shot is most user friendly. I do not know what the Miroku 85s will be in bore and groove diameter but they are a first class production facility so you likely will not be disappointed. I imagine that anyone here with a recent Miroku 1885 could give you very good idea about the bore and groove diameters. I'd also agree, that before you purchase bullets, get the gun and push (tap) a slug or two thru. Get a reading on the bore and groove diameter of your bore. That will give an idea on best bullet size. First look at a bullet that is about .001" larger than the groove diameter of your bore. The Cast Performance GC bullet you described is a candidate for good smokeless performance. Other possible bullet sources are Mt Baldy, Montana Bullet Works, Beartooth and our own "Bullshop". Rel 7 is a good choice in the 38-55 but start down in the 1200 fps range and work up. I've had good luck with both 5744 and Rel 7 in the 38-55. A properly sized, gas checked bullet of about 250 gr +/- pushed to a modest velocity by a suited smokeless powder will do all you want to do with the 38-55 and save a bunch of headaches . :)

[NickSS]

I do not have a Winchester made in Japan but I do own a C Sharps high wall and it shoots extremely well with cast bullets. I shoot both smokeless and black powder in mine and mostly use plain base bullets. I have driven them as fast as 1600 to 1650 fps without leading but mostly I shoot a lee 250 fn bullet with either 45 gr of FFG or 18 gr of 5744. These loads are in the 1300 fps range and both shoot into 1 to 1.5 moa for 10 shot groups. I have shot some Lyman GC bullets at higher velocities with excellent results as well but most of my use is for target shooting at 200 yards so I do not need the expense of gas checks to make it work for me. By the way I have 4 38-55s in both lever action and single shots and they all work well with bullets sized to .379"

[wsjones]

[QUOTE=405;1104417]I imagine that anyone here with a recent Miroku 1885 QUOTE]

Well? Any other Miroku 38-55 owners with suggestions?

And it looks like a good plan would be to back my velocity goals down to 1500-1700 fps. I don't need this rifle to be anything it's not - there's other guns and cartridges for that.

Thanks all. -WSJ

[ph4570]

My wife campaigns a Miroku 1885 38-55 "Traditional Hunter". The only mod is a Lyman 17 from sight with globe insert. She has often put 10 in one ragged hole at 100 yards. Load is the Lee 250 gr from the 2 hole mold lubed with felix, LR primers (species does not seem to matter) and 9 grains of Unique. Velocity is just a tad under 1300 with low SD. Perhaps not the velocity you seek but is an easy shooting, accurate inexpensive load.

[Mumblypeg]

I've got one of the traditional hunter models. I've been shooting the Lyman 375449 cast out of AC-WW sized to .377 and loaded with 19.0grs of IMR 4227 for my lite load. Also used the 250gr. PB with same charge with good results. I don't have a crono so I don't know what the velocity is. What I have been working with lately is some heaver loads with the 375449 GC. These loads are like the .375 Win and I'm only shooting them in the High Wall with no signs of pressure what so ever. That load has been 28.0grs of Reloader 7 . 38-55 brass is used in all loads and this has been the Starline longer brass. The loads shoot very clean with no leading at all. That's what works for me...

[excess650]

I would expect a Miroku 38-55 to be .368" x .376" or darned close. If you're going to cast your own, look no further than the Lyman 375449. 26gr Reloader 7, 28-30gr AA2015, or 30-32gr AA2200 should be very accurate and moderate pressure, BUT NOT FOR OLD BP ACTIONS.

Are they cutting those with the long chamber?

[montana_charlie]

I'm looking for more or less a single load with which to hunt deer and plink, 255-275 gr or so at ~1700-1800 fps,
Oh and your 1700 to 1800 fps load is pushing the 38-55 near max.
Rel 7 is a good choice in the 38-55 but start down in the 1200 fps range and work up.
These loads are in the 1300 fps range and both shoot into 1 to 1.5 moa for 10 shot groups."
And it looks like a good plan would be to back my velocity goals down to 1500-1700 fps.
You really weren't looking for advice on velocity, were you?

If you are intent on pushing the heaviest bullet at top speed, you would probably be happier if you got that 38-55 rechambered for .375 H&H

CM

[doubs43]

One year ago to the day I bought a Winchester 1885 "Traditional Hunter" from Davidsons. The groove diameter was advertised as .376" and I have no reason to doubt that as my cast bullets sized to .377" are very accurate in it.

I use the Starline 2.125" cases loaded with 2.5 grains of WW-231 and 32.0 grains of WC-860 to push an RCBS 320 grain bullet at 1319 fps with an average deviation of 10 fps. A standard LR primer works perfectly.

With a Lyman 250 grain bullet in a Winchester 2.082" case, I use 2.5 grains of WW-231 and 34.0 grains of WC-860. While I chronographed the first load, I estimate this one at between 1400 & 1500 fps.

The above loads work fine in my rifle but I assume no responsibility for anyone else using them.

[Doc Highwall]

Mine slugged .3764" and takes the long Starline brass.

[bigted]

i also am a recent owner of a davidsons 85 win. mine is in 45-70 tho but i wanted to say that if your bore is like the one on mine...shiney and bright with NO tooling marks...then you should have a first rate shooter as mine is.

also another comment i wanted to do here is your "need" for velocity seems a bit on the hot side and if you want a no headacke experience with your honered old cartridge in 38-55 then i recomend the factory velocity as also the suggested loads af these who have already covered this ground with spades.

oh and welcome to the site. hope you reap benefits here like the rest of us do from the more experienced shooters of these "BOOLITS"

[wsjones]

If you are intent on pushing the heaviest bullet at top speed, you would probably be happier if you got that 38-55 rechambered for .375 H&HCM

Thanks, no, not with a curved butt plate! I'm thinking that would NOT be a happy thing.:smile:

I was looking for advice and suggestions, and thoughts on my intended load components and goals for a hunting & plinking load, all of which I got.

And based on replies from other owners of Miroku Wnchesters of recent manufacture it seems that my initial component selection is reasonable. I will slug the bore to confirm groove diameter, but it seems likely that the chamber is indeed the longer dimension, which makes using the 2.125 brass sensible and do-able.

I'll take the actual load advice as reasonable initial maximums and work up to them with my components until I get good groups at or near my desired velocities, which may well now be several hundred fps slower based on experiences you fellows have shared.

On the other hand, it doesn't seem like 1700-1800 fps is an unreasonable velocity goal for THIS rifle and component combination if it groups well and doesn't beat me up.

Thanks again for the info and insight. -WSJ

[ammohead]

I have a legacy 94 and use 17.5 gr of 4759 for upwards of what velocity you are looking for. Haven't chronoed it but judging from load data... I use the lee 250 with the bevel base trimmed off by hand.

ammohead

[wsjones]

". . . our own "Bullshop??" OK, can someone tell where to locaate this? I'm assuming it's a store associated with this site? Thanks.

[405]

The "Bullshop" clan are members here. They run a small family business in interior AK. Good folks!
Try here:
http://bullshop.gunloads.com/

[blackpowder man]

I have a Miroku 1885 with the 22" barrel and so far I have only used the Lee 250 grain boolit. 28 grains of IMR 3031 did well and I would shoot anything here in Georgia with confidence. Both 15-16 grains of 2400 and 16-17 grains of SR 4759 did well also. I have Rel 7, but haven't tried it. My favorite so far is 3.0 grains of Sr 4759 and 40 grains of FF Goex with a regular large rifle primer and homemade BP lube with a card wad over the powder. That is as close to therapy as it gets. Oh sized .378 or .379 does fine in mine, it slugged at .3765. Doubs43 I have been thinking about trying the RCBS mold you have and would love to trade you some boolits.

[wsjones]

Excellent! UPS and Fedex came through on delivery of new dies, starline brass and the Midway boolits. And I've an email confirmation that the rifle has been delivered to my dealer, which I'll pick up tomorrow.

With luck with the weather and a bit of industry on my part to get some chells loaded I should be shooting it Saturday.

Thanks, all, for the info and suggestions. -WSJ

[peerlesscowboy]

My Miroku Browning 1885 "Traditional Hunter" .38-55 slugs @ .375" groove diameter. I've run gaschecked RCBS 37-250-FN sized .375 & .376 thru' it..........33gr RL-7 with the bullets seated out so the casemouth just covers the grease grooves, average velocity ran 2,016 fps. If you were crimping in the crimp groove and looking for 1700-1800 fps I'd suggest something more like 28-30 gr RL-7, these are NOT "plinking" loads.
If you're looking for a "plinking" load I'd suggest something like a Ly375248 & 20 gr 4198.

John C. Saubak

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I have one of the jap 1885´s with the long hex barrels. Mine shoots a .377 boolit nicely. Black powder or smokeless is the same. Now that big long barrel does give and acuracy advantage but I would expect the hunter barrel should easily do 1.5" at 100 yards once you get the vibrations figured out.
Been shooting 38´s many years now and there is not many critters on this side of our world that can take a 255 grainer at 1500 fps through the heart or lungs or spine and go walking away laughing. Last deer I popped with with the 375248 cast of 50/50 at 1300 fps walked a little ways laid down and leeked out. Corn crunchers just do not need much thump to harvest. Otherwise all us fellers using 50# recurves would have to get a better bow.

[wsjones]

Got the rifle and loaded some ammo but no shot fired yet. Snow yesterday, which made using the chronograph pointless, and today it's 21 degrees and wind's blowing 25+ with on and off snow showers. About all I can expect to do is make it go bang, which I'll do but I won't kow much else.

I loaded 20 rounds using the Midway Cast Performance 260gr .378 gas check's in the long Starline brass with Fed. 210 primers. Powders were 9.0 & 10.0 gr. Unique and 23.0 & 25.0 gr. IMR 4198. COL is 2.520.

[wsjones]

Finally got some tolerable weather (sunny, 18, and light wind) and nothing more pressing to do and shot up my first box of 38-55's.

Velocities were a bit less than expected with Unique - 1066 fps with 9.0 gr and 1145 with 10.0. I shot off hand at 25 yards and had no difficulty breakiing clay targets but I didn't try to do any more for accuracy. Velocities with 23.0 and 25.0 gr. of IMR 4198 were 1344 fps and 1628 fps, respectively. Recoil with the Unique loads was nil and insignificant with the 4198 loads. And unfortunately, after using the tang sight on good targets, at short range and in good light, I'm afraid a scope is definitely in order if I'm to hunt with it. -WSJ

[390ish]

I have had really good results with the beartooth over AA2495. It is the heavier of the two bear tooth bullets. i shoot a crazy horse winchester with a .378 bore. will rock clay pigeons at 100 yards till i get tired of it. don't have the charge weight in front of me.

[bull5760]

I too have purchased an 1885 winchester (Miroku) having problem finding the right dies. The dies I check on have an expander to small for cast boolits.
any ideas? I want to shoot .377 boolits. what I have been reading most dies are made for .375 and are causing problems buldging the case mouth when trying to insert a cast boolit.

[gewehrfreund]

I too have purchased an 1885 winchester (Miroku) having problem finding the right dies. The dies I check on have an expander to small for cast boolits.
any ideas? I want to shoot .377 boolits. what I have been reading most dies are made for .375 and are causing problems buldging the case mouth when trying to insert a cast boolit.

You could try a Lyman "M" die that has a 2-step expanding button.

[ph4570]

I use RCBS "cowboy" dies for my Jap Winny 38-55. The sizer comes with two expander plugs. I use the larger (forget what size). No problem seating boolits sized to .379.

[Bphunter]

I use RCBS "cowboy" dies for my Jap Winny 38-55. The sizer comes with two expander plugs. I use the larger (forget what size). No problem seating boolits sized to .379.

^this^

[Old Coot]

I too have purchased an 1885 winchester (Miroku) having problem finding the right dies. The dies I check on have an expander to small for cast boolits.
any ideas? I want to shoot .377 boolits. what I have been reading most dies are made for .375 and are causing problems buldging the case mouth when trying to insert a cast boolit.


Why bother resizing the case if you are only going to shoot low pressure cast loads?
I just reprime the cases and load them for my Stevens 44 38-55 and it works great with .380 cast bullets.

[Gemsbok405]

I shoot the 405 win and 375 win. To work the case just enougth to hold the CB, use a RCBS trim die backed off about 0.200" to 0.250" off the shellholder. This puts a nice soft grip on CB and with a small bump (from expander die) to flare case gives good brass life. I use a Lee FCD to close the bell and put a small crimp onto CB. This method is used for my single shot Ruger #1 / #3 and Win 1885.

[Mr Peabody]

I don't size my cases. After firing they are .378 inside which gives plenty of grip for a .381 boolit. See what the fired cases from your rifle measure inside.

[EDG]

You can buy the expanders in several sizes from Track of the Wolf.
The custom expanders are cheap but they only fit the Lee Expander die.
I would buy both sizes and polish the .377 down if it expands the cases too much.
I have listed the inside dimensions of both .375 Win and 38-55 dies several times.


















.
.
RCBS
.
Die
.
Sizer
.
Sizer Inside
.
Seater Bullet
.
Comments


Die Set
.
Date Code
.
Brand
.
Type
.
Diameter
.
Guide Diameter
.



.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.



.375 Win JS
.
78
.
RCBS
.
FL
.
.3890
.
.378
.
.3735 expander


.375 Win EG
.
79
.
RCBS
.
FL
.
.3900
.
.380
.
.3734 expander


.38-55 Win
.
UNK
.
RCBS CBY
.
FL
.
.3870
.
.381
.
.3742 and .3773 expanders.


.38-55 Win/Ballard
.
84
.
RCBS
.
FL
.
.3850
.
.380
.
Expander = .3735


.38-55
.
UNK
.
LEE
.
FL
.
.383/.385
.
.376
.
Short .373 expander that tapers to .385. (Lee mixes these dies 375 seater die, .375 expander die and a .38-55 sizer die)


.38-55

G 56

RCBS

TRIM

.3940

NA

Not a die set


















Note the inside diameter of the RCBS Cowboy seater and the out side diameter of the expanders.



http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Search.aspx?search=expander



I too have purchased an 1885 winchester (Miroku) having problem finding the right dies. The dies I check on have an expander to small for cast boolits.
any ideas? I want to shoot .377 boolits. what I have been reading most dies are made for .375 and are causing problems buldging the case mouth when trying to insert a cast boolit.

[BAGTIC]

From a safety viewpoint there should not be any difficulty reaching 1800-plus fps with your desired bullet weights. The Miroku is a very strong action capable of handling Ruger #1 loads. I have shot maximum Ruger #1 45-70 loads from mine without the slightest hint of functioning problems and those loads place much more stress on the action than the smaller diameter .38-55 case. Any problems would be related to using cast bullets at those velocities. Recoil and stock/pad considerations are individual.

[colt45sa]

Have you looked at or inquired about the RCBS Cowboy sets~?

[Bitman]

I don't size my cases. After firing they are .378 inside which gives plenty of grip for a .381 boolit. See what the fired cases from your rifle measure inside.

I do the same, for my Ruger #1 38-55. I size and deburr new brass, and it doesn't get resized again.

[sd5782]

I have the Miroku and the RCBS cowboy dies. I have been chasing accuracy on mine. Mine slugs close to .377. Using the .379 expander which is actually a bit under .378 didn’t give much grip on a bullet sized .378-.379, so I have been using the .376. It however doesn’t have the second step like an M die, so caution must be used to not over flare the case.

To not work the brass too much, I have the FL sizer die screwed way out so as to basically just size the bullet seating area. In fact, I don’t even need to use any sizing lube on the cases as they are only sized down a few thousandths at the nose. Because of this, I use a Lee universal decapper to knock out the primers.

[indian joe]

Thanks, no, not with a curved butt plate! I'm thinking that would NOT be a happy thing.:smile:

I was looking for advice and suggestions, and thoughts on my intended load components and goals for a hunting & plinking load, all of which I got.

And based on replies from other owners of Miroku Wnchesters of recent manufacture it seems that my initial component selection is reasonable. I will slug the bore to confirm groove diameter, but it seems likely that the chamber is indeed the longer dimension, which makes using the 2.125 brass sensible and do-able.

I'll take the actual load advice as reasonable initial maximums and work up to them with my components until I get good groups at or near my desired velocities, which may well now be several hundred fps slower based on experiences you fellows have shared.

On the other hand, it doesn't seem like 1700-1800 fps is an unreasonable velocity goal for THIS rifle and component combination if it groups well and doesn't beat me up.

Thanks again for the info and insight. -WSJ

I think your velocity target is on the hot side - I had a 375 BB years ago - commercial load for the 250 grain was 1900fps - these guns were setup to take 52,000CUP compared to the normal '94 at 38,000CUP ---1600FPS would seem to be more realistic for a 250 grain boolit - you proly can do that with a plain base boolit