Sometimes things don't work out.

[44man]

My friend dropped off a S&W Performance Center revolver in .45 ACP for me to play with. It has a 4" barrel and dimensions are perfect throughout. He brought a bunch of semi wad cutters, 200 gr, powder and primers. I loaded a bunch and can't do much better then 2" at 25 yards. (6 gr of Unique.)
I swabbed the bore and it looks like it is full of lead. I checked his boolits and they come out 9 BHN.
I gave that up and cast some Lee boolits to try but first I have to remove all the leading.
I will keep you posted.

[Whitworth]

I think at 25 yards the target's just too close for you. :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

I think at 25 yards the target's just too close for you. :bigsmyl2:
Not with this thing, I don't expect much yet.
I cleaned it and could not tell much with a patch so I slid my brass bushing for the forcing cone cutter in the barrel. It stopped at the frame and would not budge. I had to put my cleaning rod through it and screw on the jag to pull it back out.
I fire lapped it with 12 rounds and now the bushing almost falls through, just a slight tap at one spot.
The forcing cone is rough and I don't know if I will re-cut it yet. The gauge drops in pretty far and I do not want to open the rear any more. I might get away with 11* as long as I stop before it cuts the very back edge. Have to study it or make a lap to fit.

[white eagle]

that cartridge just aint big enough to get ahold of

[Whitworth]

that cartridge just aint big enough to get ahold of

We can fix that, LOL!

[tek4260]

While you are testing, run some 255's over that 6gr load. I am wanting to try that load in my series 70. :)

[Lloyd Smale]

ive got two 4 inch 25s neither are exceptionaly accurate. Both shoot much better with 250 grain plus swcs then they do with 200swc or 230 round nosed bullets and usually will do better with a slower powder like unique and some pressure. Problem with that is that thats not really what i want to load in those guns. What i really like is a round flat or round nosed 200-230 so that moon clip loading is faster so i just settle for 2 to 2 1/2 inch groups. I know others that have claimed excellent accuracy with 25s but my two and the other one i used to own and the couple my buddy has just arent that accurate

[Bass Ackward]

Struggling are we? :grin:

Funny when you can't load 22 grains of H-110 or 296 behind a rock in a 62" barrel huh?

With the 4"ers you need to shoot heavy or step on them a bit with the lighter stuff. Especially if you are into the fast powders. That means you need them a little harder. 15 BHN will probably work, but go to rocks if you can't figure out anything else.

Since folks mention Unique, I use 7 grains of Unique with either the Lee 200 RFN or the 230TC. 6.8 grains if there is money on the table.

If you want to stay with those softer slugs try 4 grains Tite Group and try to hang on to it. This is a lighter gun.

Get that velocity up! And don't over crimp. Ooops, you don't believe in crimp having an effect on loads. Well, start! Think light as a bird!

And don't be afraid of the recoil. Rookies! :bigsmyl2:

[white eagle]

let me know what you come up with
I just got a new 45 cal mold for my acp
for the Blackhawk though (250gr gc Accurate Molds)
I wanted the gc for use in the colt I figure I would be using
it in there before long ....sweet little pest boolit

[44man]

Struggling are we? :grin:

Funny when you can't load 22 grains of H-110 or 296 behind a rock huh?

With the 4"ers you need to shoot heavy or step on them a bit with the lighter stuff. Especially if you are into the fast powders. That means you need them a little harder. 15 BHN will probably work, but go to rocks if you can't figure out anything else.

Since folks mention Unique, I use 7 grains of Unique with either the Lee 200 RFN or the 230TC. 6.8 grains if there is money on the table.

If you want to stay with those softer slugs try 4 grains Tite Group.

Get that velocity up! And don't over crimp. Ooops, you don't believe in crimp having an effect on loads. Well, start! Think light as a bird!

And don't be afraid of the recoil. Rookies! :bigsmyl2:
That's how I am leaning. I cast and water dropped the Lee 255 gr to try. I did use Unique but might try some Blue Dot or HS-6. Not much room in those bitty things. I don't want to shoot the soft ones anymore.
First I want to clean up the cone, it still has lead at the very edge.
I used a very light taper crimp, mostly to straighten the case and just start it into the groove.
I am going to cut a brass lap today.
I have to tell the truth, this is the first time I ever loaded these little toys. :bigsmyl2: What ever did they do with the rim? They feel the same upside down! [smilie=l:

[Bass Ackward]

What ever did they do with the rim?


Oh my. You got the wrong brass. It does have a rim.

It improves things allot of the times cause the brass and clips can be all over the place. And they just get worse with use / age.

BD and HS-6 are too slow without a Mag primer. Best is Power Pistol or Herco if you got any.

Just remember you have to concentrate and follow through. It is a very light gun with those holes through it and you don't have the lock time you are used to.

Can't cheat now! :grin:

[44man]

I would not touch the forcing cone after I used a screen from my Louis lead remover to clean it, the gauge dropped in too far.
The bore is smooth at .451" and the slug fits nicely through the throats, maybe .4515" or so, a .452" boolit will not enter.
I sized the Lee boolits to .4515" and they did not shoot any better then .452". I found some .451" 200 gr XTP's in my box so I loaded 8 with 6 gr of Unique. The cast shot better.
Now the bad thing, only one with the XTP's fired with the first hammer strike. No problem with my cast and primer dents are pretty deep.
I put 6 empties in a moon clip and watched the pin move the case forward a touch when the hammer fell. Seems like the clips are not holding the rounds fully forward even after I pushed on each round when I loaded the gun. No resistance there.
Looks like the gun needs a boolit to hold brass in place. Then how are the clips holding rounds in line with the bore?
Looks like a pig in a poke that should never have been made! :veryconfu

[44man]

Firing pin is too short! :groner:
I chambered an empty with a WW primer only and dropped it in the chamber without a clip. The case is exactly.898". The pin only dents the primer half way.
Then I tried a Fed primer and it fired. Drove the primer back to the recoil plate and forced the brass into the throat 3/32".
Funny gun.

[ZombieHitman]

Shooting 230gr TC cast boolits, I use 4.6 grains of red dot.
Pumping them through a 1911, I get a little leading, but not enough to worry about.
Between tumble lubing and pan lubing, I get best results with the pan lubed - less leading.
Over the past 6 months, by brother and I wore out 500 cases, and we're on the second batch now.
All through the same gun.
Seems to me that you're loading them a little hot for the case, but I could be mistaken...

[376Steyr]

Try some loads in Auto Rim brass. I've found that a load that is a tackdriver in a 45 AR case will often only give "acceptable combat accuracy" when put into ACP cases and moonclips. Maybe this will give you a better feel for what the gun is capable of. I've had good luck with 5.8 grs of W231 and a 200 gr SWC.

[44man]

OK, I just did some measuring which is what I did not have time for before. Eyeballs don't work good anymore! [smilie=1:
The head space is .009". The pin protrusion is .035" which leaves .026" for the primer. Typical primer dents are .025" so the pin is .001" more then needed.
The mainspring is stock but I figured it just does not hit hard enough so I put a piece of shim stock under the strain screw.
I put a WW primer in an empty but this time I used the clip. It fired with a deep dent. I figure I will go a few thousandths thicker and form it around the spring so it can't slip.
Were the weak primer hits the reason for the poor accuracy? I don't know yet but it usually is. I need to load more now.
Let you know.

[Bass Ackward]

Were the weak primer hits the reason for the poor accuracy? I don't know yet but it usually is. I need to load more now.
Let you know.


Figured you'd jump on that. Ain't on my three. I remember awhile back when you were demanding pictures of my accuracy and you laughed at my 4" group at 100 yards with one of these. You'll understand soon enough. The beauty of it is we are finally on common ground now unless you want to turn it into a moon beam gun. So quit whinning. :grin:

The mainspring is actually the same as all other Smiths. You have to replace the trigger return spring with a stronger one if you want to get the feel / hammer speed of a standard Smith. (But that would be cheating :grin:)

The problem with ACP brass is because they deepened the chambers over the model of 1989 versions. (who knows why) This does ruin headspace without the clips so AR brass .... makes headspace more consistent. This is why you have trouble settling off rounds if you don't use the clips. On the 625-2s you don't really have to use clips cause the case DOES headspace on the mouth of the case.

These deepened chambers means that you have to seat out to avoid that sharp ledge. I suspect this is your early dilemma. I reamed my throats out to .4525 to clean this out and allow me to get the bullet INTO the throat. So my OALs are generally longer.

Another problem with the headspace is the end play in the cylinder. If you use at least one .002 spacer, you can tighten it up considerably. THEN you can run the clips better. Ignition improves. You can get these from Power Custom.

Remember, these things are basically built for speed. Speed means heat. Heat translates to metal expansion. So they are a little sloppy.

Just be aware that you MIGHT have to remove the .002 spacer as the gun seats (breaks) in at the Crane Knuckle. As that does wear from opening and closing the cylinder, the spring in the screw that holds that in the frame is going to keep pulling it back shortening headspace some. Take it apart and you will see.

That's why I said AR brass will help here.

[OBXPilgrim]

I had some 255gr Lee's that I had poured using some mystery metal, apparently there was a little more lino (or just antimony) in them than I knew. After being sized & loaded (45 ACP), then sitting for a couple months, I tried to shoot them in a 1911 - they wouldn't chamber. It seems the boolits had grown in diameter.

I found they would chamber in a 625-2 (yes, the ability to shoot with unclipped ammo is nice) and I could not believe how much more accurate they were. Most of my good 1911 load slightly lead the bore in this one. I can't help but wonder if the softer slugs skid in that bore when they hit that very, very thin rifling in the bore after that extra long chamber jump.

So, now I like a little larger, harder slug in the 625.

[44man]

No shims for this one Bass! I have checked most everything and there is almost zero end play. Measured with a dial indicator shows .001".
Chamber depth is .815". The moon clips hold brass back .020" over a bare case. I can only fire a bare case with Fed primers.
You are correct that the case does not head space from chamber depth. Everything is set up for moon clips only. Besides, who wants to poke out all the fired brass with a rod? [smilie=l:
Now a fully loaded moon clip can move back the .060" head space and the hammer and pin must move the whole works forward to fire.
It looks like a stronger mainspring is just needed. I am going to make a cup to fit over the strain screw end to lengthen it.
I don't expect to make it shoot like mine do but I want to get rid of the fliers and at this point I am blaming inconsistent ignition.
I would not have found it if I had not tried jacketed bullets because my cast loads were snug enough to hold brass in place, every one fired but that still does not make it right.
Now remember that hammer stroke is shorter double action so you can run a cylinder around 3 to 4 times before all the rounds fire, I know, I tried it as fast as I could pull the trigger. Be great in a fire fight! :holysheep
You need to explain how a stronger rebound spring would aid ignition. :takinWiz:

[CJR]

44Man,

It's been my experience that over the years, primer manufacturers change the metals in primers, so that easy to ignite primers are now hard to ignite. I found that out when my reliable handloads suddenly became unreliable. Many years ago, I talked to the gunsmith Behlert about it after seeing it mentioned it in one of his catalogs. CCI comes to mind as one company who did that and didn't mention their primer metal change. So ammo that worked fine one day, now was difficult to ignite with the harder metal primers. DA revolvers are more sensitive to this than SA revolvers.

Likewise, in my view, it seemed strange to reduce hammer force and smooth-up a revolver to reduce DA pull, and then develop unreliable ignition and then increase the hammer spring to get reliable ignition once more with a heavier DA pull. What I did was use a trick from Dunlap's Gunsmithing book. Dunlap gave specs on what the minimum firing pin diameter should be so as not to pierce the primer. In my case, for a firing pin diameter of 0.075"D or more, I put a short taper on the nose of the firing pin so that the tip diameter is 1/16"D. If the firing pin is frame mounted, I let the rest of the firing pin body stay at 0.075"D. That way the firing still stays guided in the frame, but the firing tip now dents the primer more easily. This increases the applied stress to the primer metal, by the firing pin, and the primer dents more easily. Result is a more reliable primer ignition with reduced DA pull. To date, I have yet to pierce a primer since I started reloading in 1957.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

CJR

[Bass Ackward]

You need to explain how a stronger rebound spring would aid ignition. :takinWiz:


No I don't. Surely you have another Smith laying around there. Swap it out.

[44man]

No I don't. Surely you have another Smith laying around there. Swap it out.
Nope, got rid of mine over 25 years ago. Those I have worked on since just go by memory.
I made the extension for the strain screw and it really pops the WW primers now. Took about .025" to make the lower half of the mainspring to seat against the frame without the screw sticking out.
Have to go load now. :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

I just used John's WW primers to make sure they work. They are not as accurate as the Fed 150 so groups did not change much but I had some real bad ones before with only 3 on the paper---all over the paper! [smilie=l:At least they are all in the same place now.
I have to try the Fed again but I hate to use up all of my primers. :bigsmyl2:
Anyway, the ignition problem is fixed. This thing will fire rifle primers now!

[44man]

Come back Bass! You still have not explained how a stronger trigger spring will make the hammer hit harder. You have also not explained the only two functions the rebound slide has.
I am sure many want to know. [smilie=l:

[Bass Ackward]

Come back Bass! You still have not explained how a stronger trigger spring will make the hammer hit harder. You have also not explained the only two functions the rebound slide has.
I am sure many want to know. [smilie=l:



You need to read. You jumped to that conclusion. You were already adjusting the hammer speed.

From the other post: "You have to replace the trigger return spring with a stronger one if you want to get the feel / hammer speed of a standard Smith."

Hammer speed alone doesn't make it feel like their other N frames of which you lavished praise on their 29 / 629s.



You like to nitpick which is going to be bad for you now. But I can still get away with it. :grin: You still have to meet or beat and that ain't going to look good for you me being such a ******* and all huh. :grin:

I am writting this down as I am sure others are as well.

1. The gun was defective right out of the Custom Shop. It has been "repaired".
2. Headspace is perfect.
3. Using the 11 degree cone cutter is apparently out.
4. Fed 150s got you on paper again.

ON PAPER! Those looked like 14" square sheets! I'm sorry, I'm calm again. You posted 4" groups at first. Caught me by surprise and I lost it there for a second, what's next? Firelapping?

[44man]

Now Bass, calm down, been funnin with you! :drinks: (Blame it on my hat will you?)
However I am getting somewhere with the Lee 255 gr. Made 12 rounds today and decided to also try a plus P load, decent but too fast.
I still had a few fliers but think I can get rid of them. I had 4 shots in 3/4". I am sure of what caused the fliers so I need to do a little more work.
I was just shooting off the side of my leg.
I am not done with bass though (Might never, he is so EASY!) :mrgreen:
I changed my loading procedures to more match what I do with my big bores, tough with these bitty things.
Anyway I will let Bass explain what changes I made and what causes the fliers. If he can that is! :kidding:

[44man]

By the way, I had been shooting a mix of cast and jacketed so I cleaned the bore. There was no lead or copper at all in it.
I shot today with a dead clean gun.

[Bass Ackward]

Ok. This has been fun. Time to get serious. Forget the offhand stuff and put it to bags.

[Bass Ackward]

I don't know who's gun this is, but I ought to be charging this guy money.

He is getting his gun broke in and everything handed to him.

[44man]

I don't know who's gun this is, but I ought to be charging this guy money.

He is getting his gun broke in and everything handed to him.
John is a good friend and owes me a few bottles! :bigsmyl2:
He bought it used and I think the reason it was sold was because it would not go off a lot of times.
Anyway, it is a learning experience for me because I never fooled with a .45 ACP and it is the first time with moon clips too.
I have worked on a few hundred 1911's and built up a few but never had to load for them, don't even have my own dies.
Stuffing these things in a revolver presents more problems then I thought.
Bass, I have trouble shooting open sights from bags and I have not made a standing rest setup yet so I can get the sights far enough from my eyes. I need something I can adjust up and down and also remove from the bench when not needed. Maybe I should get busy.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, I have trouble shooting open sights from bags and I have not made a standing rest setup yet so I can get the sights far enough from my eyes.


You know a lot of people feel exactly this same way. I have taken people that say they can't see open sights or shoot a handgun and they are mystified at what they can do with an accurate gun that doesn't put divots in their forehead. And what they have been missing. Even if you have arthritis as I do. It a matter of getting a bigger target that you can maintain a reproducible sight picture. If that's a Volkswagen, then that is what it is for you.

This is probably the easiest, simplest, and cheapest set-up for a hand gunner to start with cast as it doesn't require much from the operator. Brass and equipment are cheap and molds are everywhere. So you were a good test case. :grin:

Look at where you have gotten to with, my guess, less than 50 rounds. Anybody can make one of these work for 2" groups if the gun is OK mechanically. Specific powder don't matter, exact primer don't matter, hardness ain't overly sensitive and I haven't found a bad bullet design yet at 200 - 260 grains that won't do it.

If you want more, you can get it easily I think that you did well with ACP and clips. The AR brass is another way to cheat. I investigated yesterday and realized that I changed out all the mainsprings that had a groove in the center (625s) running the full length of the spring with solids. The difference? .025. But adding .025 to the tension is still less force than with a normal, solid replacement spring. Forgot this information. And it DO make a difference.

The only real challenge is longer range accuracy and the question is how important is that with this caliber. I do it for the challenge cause close range gets boring. With the 5" barrel, it is significantly easier cause it is so much more flexible. Because I can push easier, I can be softer than the 4s. If you want to slow down, it does pay to get detailed.

I hope that you find this interesting and keep up cause you have a following on the hard, boomin end that shoot handguns like rifles. Those folks would benefit to realize there are legitimate uses for handguns that are actually shot like handguns. Off hand and beyond 7 yards too.

Ain't nothin in this world like walking water with a 45 ACP. Close enough is all it takes, the concussion doesn't rattle neighbor's windows, and you don't get wet.