how about coffee filters for paper patch?

[nelsonted1]

I am proud of my cheapness. An example: If I heat up leftovers in the microwave I sometimes use rinsed used coffee filters in the microwave to control the blow-ups that throw food all around the inside of th oven. Another is re-using dryer sheets as a scrubbing rag and then throw away.

Today I threw on a filter (dang, I hope someone doesn't say they are fiber glass instead of paper) and stood there looking at the carousel go round and round and got to thinking. I grabbed a new filter, looked at the thickness and tried tearing it.

How about using coffee filters?

TEd

[waksupi]

I just recently re-read Phillip Sharp's handloading book. He said that the wrapper on butter sticks was the desired paper to use. You should be able to get some from a local dairy, or order it online. I believe it is called parchment paper.

[nanuk]

you may be able to get parchment paper at a grocery store

or look for a 'meat cutting' supply house.

[wallenba]

I'm still trying to find what works for me, but I'm having pretty good results for a novice patcher with this stuff > http://www.dickblick.com/products/art1st-tracing-pad/ I found mine at a local teachers supply store, should have it in most art stores as well. The onion skin sold at Office Depot and others is too thick.

[303Guy]

OK then, getting back to the question of coffe filter paper. Best try it and let us know how it goes. It's pretty porous so should compress well under chambering and firing or even post patching sizing. I don't have any to test tube test 'cause I gone went modern and got me a plunger type coffer maker! (You'll never use cofffee filters again - not for making coffe anyway). I like a PPCBoo that compresses into the throat with little force and likewise compresses into the case neck. Mind you, I still like printer paper. Coffee filter paper you say? Mmmm.... Might I ask how thick it is and how easily it compresses and how well it bonds to itself on wrapping? It could make customising the core a little less difficult.

[pdawg_shooter]

Over the last 40 years I have tried just about any paper I could think of and most worked to some extent. Now, I stay with 16# green bar printer paper. The type that has the holes down both sides to pull through a printer. Where I work they print stacks of reports on this stuff and then pitch it. I have several lifetimes supply of it. It seems a bit stronger than most paper, stretches well, shrinks tight and sizes good when dry and lubed. It resist tearing when feeding from a magazine better than most.

[ebner glocken]

Parchment paper can be bought at most sam's clubs, 12 bucks will buy you a lifetime supply and then some. I'm so cheap I reused toilet paper......it smells terrible when fired.

Ebner

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Yes, it is two qualities: correct thickness; sufficient strength. Strength determined by fiber arrangement, composition, and manufacture.

No takers sometime back when I suggested brown paper lunch bags (not grocery bags) and baker's parchment as strong enough material, nearly equivalent to original bank note bond if selected wisely.

My own longtime PP/GG boolit shooting has caused me to conclude that best quality shooting with either type bullet would be equal. Mostly due to the alloys and lubes available to us now but not in the past, assuming equal care in preparation.

There are really good professional ways to do many things in our shooting, casting, lubing, patching, hobby, but someone will still show up wanting to brew up horse hockey to use for lube. No study of the matter is undertaken by those in this category. If you tell them they are wasting time, it is not well received.

I suggest, if you want to go for quality bond paper patching results, available in four thicknesses for your requirements for patching, its not likely to be found at cheapo depot, and it sure is not present in a coffee filter. BvT

[303Guy]

Paper strength is a big factor I'm sure. So is bore condition. Add to that alloy properties and one finds that too much paper strength is detrimental sometimes. Sometimes one wants a paper that 'crumbles' without disappearing from between the casting and the bore. Thicker and softer paper can have it's place by virtue of allowing a tighter throat fit without pushing the boolit back into the case or leaving it behind on extracting the round unfired. These all come down to tweaks for individual fine tuning. Then there is the fun factor! And the learning. Just be sure to keep detailed notes - and good photograghs if you can.

Some papers work great but they don't bond well so are ok only with a twisted tail or tight tail fold or crimp. I've dropped the tail altogether so now I need a paper that bonds to itself well.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/pictures.jpg

The paper also needs to grip the core. This arrangement works!

And the reason for it? To avoid this.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/No428gr2209branfiller.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-060F.jpg


That's not to say that standard tried and tested conventional wisdom should be bypassed or ignored.

[onesonek]

303Guy

"I've dropped the tail altogether so now I need a paper that bonds to itself well."

May I ask what you are using for paper? Also, what alloy and velocity in the bottom left pic of your post?

[303Guy]

onesonek, I have no idea of the velocity or even what boolit it was. It'll be my regular alloy which is lead pipe scrap with some lead roof sheeting and a chunk of plumbers solder. If I have a record of it (which I'm sure I do) I don't know where it is. Oh, it would have some copper in it too. I forget how much but there is an ideal 'eutectic' amount which is easily achievable by tinning the right amount of copper and disolving it in the melt. It's supposed to make the alloy tougher but not harder. Makes the alloy self age harden in just a few hours.

The paper I am using is notepad paper although on of those patched boolits shown is printer paper. The brand is Olympic by Croxley - available in my local supermarket). It happens to be just thick enough to get to feed through my printer but is thinner than printer paper. (.0026 as opposed to .0042). I've tried a different brand of paper which was a bit thinner and often jammed up the printer and did not bond to itself. Now I hope I got that right![smilie=1:

Printer paper goes 'fluffy' when rolled wet with any vigour as I do. I 'roll iron' the wet patch with a thin plastic ruler to 'creep' the paper till the ends meet. That ensures good bonding. (I have been know to cheet and dry wrap with a tiny dab of glue unter the trailing corner).

[onesonek]

Ok Thanks,,,,,,,I got some babbit alloy here I may play with. It's 84-8-8 sn/sb/cu. Got the mold part pretty much figured out for the 9.3x74R, still researching paper however. I was going to call the office supply shop here to see what they might have. Something like the 100% cotton onion skin I been reading about.

[303Guy]

There's a trick to alloying lead. It's to do with brittleness versus toughness and ductility.

I suspect that folks who have success with 100% cotton paper do so with rather full power loads and/or soft alloy. I have had sort of reasonable results with cotton paper and softish alloy with quite stiff loads in my 'rust textured' two-groove No.4. I say 'sort of reasonable' because it shot straight to about 50yds before going south - badly. Nothing else worked in it. Never shot anything with it. I gave up on it. In other guns the cotton paper patch did not fragment much with the loads I tested. I was using tracing paper which was tough stuff. I have pressure limitations with my Lee Enfields and probably with the alloy as well.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

FWIW, paper that goes "fluffy" when wetted and rolled on the boolit does not have the fiber structure or strength to stretch a little and then shrink evenly. It is sometimes difficult to work with for the same reason. If the patch isn't good the shooting isn't good.

It is the 100% cotton or rag bond paper that usually does have the grain structure and strength and most closely duplicates old time patching paper. Different thicknesses are still available. That is at least where our starting ideas come from.

I rolled toward me, first using a very damp smooth cloth on a smooth cutting board with wetted paper, and later a mouse pad without the cloth after they were invented. This worked to put tension by stretching the patch and they dried very tight to the boolit. Measured very evenly too. Then I could lightly finger lube with a powder compatible lube, or even size the patched boolit or not as trials of loads advanced. I always used alloy from about 12/1 to 30/1 for PP boolits whether patching to bore or to groove size and depending on groove depth. The idea was for bore sized bullets to slug up a bit protected by the patch, or for grooved sized patched bullets to fit the throat well if possible so the patch would hold as the bullet traveled and protect it from leading.

Sometimes correctly patching the wrong bullet or bullet diameter leads to poor results too.

BvT

[onesonek]

I'm at the waiting for my mold from AM stage,,,I have learned a lot from all of you so far. Out of curiosity last night, I took a coffee filter, and wrapped a .460" boolit just to see. The paper dry measured .0025", rolled wet and after drying over night I had .466". The paper evidently shrinks a bit more than what I have read here as normal. I would need 3 wraps. Of course not all filters are likely created equal, I'm sure various brands will have different thickness. It don't seem to have any signifcant direction grain or strength that I could tell, so I guess it is what was refered to in "paper 101" as square. But it does bond to itself fairly decent from what I could tell. It's tear strength is slightly less than that of the baking parchment I also had here. I found the parchment didn't stick as well,,,,guessing due to it likely has silicone impregnated. Although a very light coat of lube after wrapped and dried might make it stick better. I was planning on a using just a little 45-4510 on some once I get to shoot stage, to see if there was any difference to a naked patch.
I like the idea, that coffee filter paper likely don't have any abrasive sizers in it,,or very little if it does. If it does work, finding a source for it on the roll might be the big headache.

[catboat]

Coffee filter paper would surely be strong enough. The issue with it is it's design. It has a heavy dosage of "wet strength resin" on it. This is the reason the fibers don't fall apart and cause a mushy filter in the hot water filter area of a coffee maker.

It may not develop enough fiber/fiber bonding (hydrogen bonding) to maintain a good wrap when it dries. You won't likely find stronger paper (it's all long fiber, to permit high porosity/water drainage). Not sure about its thickness spec. It may be all over the board, as that is not a critical variable in it's intended use. It's worth trying. It seems like it's holding the wrap so far-which good news.

Soaking the filter paper/strips in dilute bleach (approx 1:20-30 Chlorox:water , acidic ) will break down the wet strength resin. Hot water will speed reaction. If that doesn't work, try dissolving 1-2 tablespoons of baking soda in a pint of hot water (increases pH). Try different soak times. Maybe 10-30 mintues???? This may help with improving the wrap after it dries (as it will permit more fiber/fiber hydrogen bonding, as some wet stength resin will be removed).

Good luck.

You're right. Coffee filter paper has very low (if any) added ash.

I had a paper mill customer that used to use old punched out coffee filter as a fiber source (the left over "donut holes" after the coffee filter was punched out). It was a pain in the patoot to repulp and use on the paper machine, due to the high wet strength resin content. They had to use a special pulper, called a "barracuda" and add a good slug of bleach, or sometimes NaOH (sodium hydroxide, castic) to RAISE the pH (increase alkalinity, or "basicity", or make it more "caustic") to get the fiber/fiber bonding to break away from the wet strength. The mill stopped using it as a fiber source after about of a year of frustrations (Eastern Fine Paper, Brewer, ME. Now closed down).

[onesonek]

Actually that piece of filter paper I tried here at home, cut from the bottom of the basket type filter with pleats, wrapped and held better than the Esleek 9# onion skin I got recently. And wrapped far better than the baking parchment I have here as well. If need be, I thought root starch paste could be used on the last wrap while wet. Or use a light film coat of 45-45-10 lube after dry to help bond the wrap during handling.

I had a line on some so I had thought, but the company's advertising was wrong and they didnt make any non heat sealable filter paper, so back square 1.5 on that.

I found another company, whom I had called,,,,but was having difficulty with the receptionist?
Evidently I had given her my company name or enough information, ( I was asking her for the specs on weight and thicknes if she had them or could direct me to someone whom had,,,She asked what machine it was being used on,, I told her I wasnt using a machine but rather wrapping boolits by hand,,,,that's where I prety much lost her,,LOL, so i pretty much dropped her and was going to call back),,,and about 3 days later the sales rep tracked me down and called. They don't have coffee filter in a flat sheet, as it runs through the machine and formed wet. They however did have non heat sealable tea paper, although not as heavy.
I don't see that it makes a difference if one wraps a boolit 2 times or 3-4 or 5 to get to desired thickness? Anyhow, he is suposed to be sending me some samples in the 2 heaviest weights they have. ( i think I was able to talk him out of 10-20 sheets, 10x12" if I remember right). He didn't have the specs on hand, so I don't know what they are, but he thought the heaviest one was 38gsm. The only draw back I see as far if it does work,,,it sounds like a 50# minimum order. But if it does work and that is the case, I would be happy to share with all that might be interested. 50 pounds is alot of paper for me to use, but again if it works and there is interest I can get more I think. Normally he said it sells by the container lot, but he was intriqued by my want / need, and being a shooter himself, I think he was pulling some strings for a 50# order.

We'll see, time will tell!

[onesonek]

Speaking of which,,,the samples showed up today, although he only sent the one weight 30 gsm. It measure .0025-6", the stretch seems to be about 1mm. Being not such a dense paper at 30gsm, it does shrink some, as I only gained .006" on 2 warps. It looks like a 3 wrap paper for me. This stuff seems not to bond like the coffee filter paper I had here, and about the same as the Esleek onion skin. I will try catboat's suggestion of the chlorox soak and see if that helps some with the bond. But then again, I'm not objectionable to paste or what not too help as well. I'm mostly after the low ash content aspect of the paper.